Tbh I don't play the deck much anymore, but from testing Ben's list out, I came to a sort of midway point with Ben's list and my previous lists. If you're facing combo and Burn, yeah, you want at least 1 Kambal maindeck.
Well, I ran it last night, and I will agree with you, the deck sorely needs a board wipe or ensnaring bridge type card to deal with go-wide decks. And it also needs a way to deal with other permanents. Maybe Cleansing Nova? Might be too slow though.
Also, I still got smashed by Tron but them's the breaks. Ben's maindeck is so bad against Tron G1 that you might as well just concede upon seeing a Urza land and go to sideboarding. Probably didn't help that I really only drew removal and lands, but still, I can't imagine it being too much better.
In my own meta I didn't ever really bring in Tocatli Honor Guard so I would probably remove them for a sweeper and engineered explosives.
The sideboard is basically a huge "up yours" to Tron and graveyard decks, which are the 2 decks we've traditionally struggled with. I find it funny that in previous months we had debated FoR vs Fulminator, only to have him just jam playsets of both. I'm going to give it a run with no changes tomorrow and see how I like it!
I think it is because he hasn't posted the SB yet, or at least that's what he said on Twitter. It's quite an interesting take on the deck, though I'm not that convinced about maindecking 2 LtLH with only 4 creatures. Gideon over Sorin is another surprising choice since the lifegain seems quite important with 4 Bobs, 4 Seizes and 14 >=3cmc cards.
The Liliana is more of just an alternate wincon in this deck. It definitely seems to be a meta call - the Mythic Championship didn't have a lot of burn, for example. I would agree about lack of lifegain. It seems like he's hedging really hard for the 4 Shambling Vent and the Vault of the Archangel. Kaya and Collective Brutality also offer some incidental lifegain. I'm going to test out the build today vs some friends once I see the full sideboard.
Ben Stark ran a sort of B/W Planeswalker control deck that I'd only consider Deadguy Ale because of the Confidants, Lingering Souls, and discard. It definitely seems intriguing. I like the full 4 Field of Ruin, plus the Lilianas - definitely should be enough to pressure even Tron. Not sure why there are only 6 Sideboard cards though!
The takeovers for me are that I need a more reliable finisher and that teching Spellbombs was a good choice, even if I didn't do well.
The thing is that versus big mana, you have to have a fast clock - which the Mutavaults can often provide. As you yourself found out, even 6 land destruction spells aren't enough. I've seen and played enough Tron to know that even Blood Moon isn't lights out if they can't assemble something quickly.
You are right, but FoR doesn't usually screw or curve (our mana base is already pretty consistent) but having 10-11 3cmc cards can make some hands too slow. And having both FoR and Fulminator really helps against Tron. In the MUps were Fulminator is not helpful (mostly Aggro), it's spot could be a removal or a cantrip, while FoR is still a land that doesn't hurt us much. However, I really missed Mutavaults, and I'm thinking about doing -1 VotA and -1 FoR to add +2 Mutavault. I might try 2 md Fulminators, though, if I'm able to find a place for them, since they could free me some spots in the SB and, as you say, it's still a good card.
Fulminator at the very least trades with most aggro creatures in a worst-case scenario. I think that we're not really so much arguing over Fulminator vs FoR, but FoR vs Mutavault. I'd probably not mind replacing Vault with another Mutavault to have 3 total in my list.
One thing I'm thinking is that Damping Sphere is probably preferable to most of the alternatives in general.
The results were... Well, really bad. However, I got some insights that might be interesting. The deck performed really well during the first few turns, but when the board was controlled, it lacked the speed to kill my opponents before they could recover. Almost every match can be resumed that way, really.
Unfortunate to hear about your results, but at least it was a good learning experience. For posterity’s sake, would you mind posting what decks you went up against? I can kind of sort of figure out that you played vs Control and Midrange, but that’s about it. I definitely like the 1 maindeck Nihil Spellbomb, that's a smart choice.
Another card that resulted to be amazing was Field of Ruin. It helped a lot killing Azcantas and manlands. However, I really missed Mutavaults to pressure my opponents. On the other hand, I never had an opportunity to use VotA.
Since killpower seems to be what's lacking, I'm thinking about adding +3 Gideon, AoZ on the main deck. However, that makes it difficult to fit the Spellbombs. I'm not completely sold on the Fulminators MD, though, since FoR achieves the same results for the decks where FM is needed but it's not a just 2/2 for 3 mana for the matches where it's not.
Right, and FoR is just a colorless land for the matches where it’s not, -and- it’s harder to sideboard with them, too.
Fulminator makes for a great threat and allows us to be more proactive. It’s a 3 mana spell that comes down as a 2/2 and always threatens. I’m glad that you are liking Field of Ruin, but unfortunately, you’re losing a ton of firepower with the loss of the Mutavaults.
My concern is that you’re dropping Mutavaults for Field of Ruin, so you lose the ability to turn the corner, which then further warrants more changes main deck. You’ll need to add more white mana for multiple Gideons, and I’m not sure what you would drop to change it.
That being said, like you, I still rarely find a use for Vault of the Archangel. This deck uses its mana nearly every turn and I haven’t really found too many spots where I just happen to have 5 mana open to activate it.
As someone who wasn't sold on the mainboard fulminator I see where you're coming from. I'm not sure that it's the best we can do, but sometimes it lines up perfectly. Opponent is stuck on 2 lands, blow one up. They flipped a search for azcanta, blow it up. They have a celestial collonade, play fulminator and dare them to activate it.
Unfortunately, I think that Fulminator really is the best that we can do.
I believe that the reason this deck does well is that it ruthlessly destroys the synergies in your opponent’s deck while generally advancing your own gameplan at the same time. A typical B/W deck will have at least 11-12 hand disruption cards, discard from Liliana, and of course, removal for key creatures. Remember, this is a midrange deck, so it can shift gears depending on the matchup. Fulminator Mage is the only land destruction card I know of that helps you do both.
I’ve had 4/2 lifeline Fulminators attacking, as well as a 2/2 that serves as a chump blocker, as well as a mana screwer. It’s a great card for this deck.
The Rock (G/B) can use FoR because it has powerful beaters like Grim Flayer and Tarmogoyf to offset - we don't. Thus, we need different cards to achieve similar purposes.
BTW, I echo everyone in saying that Assassin’s Trophy should have been W/B!
Just been doing some testing, right now I've settled on this. 2 Maindeck Fulminator is beyond great and has helped out a lot vs some of the big mana decks. Also, I've been sort of unhappy with the Path to Exile, so I'm looking at replacing it with a Murderous Cut since we pretty rarely use our GY, and there is some anti synergy with Fulminator Mage. Path is great sometimes, but honestly, Murderous Cut would have done the trick pretty much 9 times out of 10. Of course, the issue with Cut is Dark Confidant where it's CMC 5. Maybe Go For the Throat or Victim of Night? We'll see in testing.
So big changes: +1 Fulminator, -1 Swamp, -1 Sorin Solemn, +1 Gideon
Gideon closes out games like nobody's business but you have to be mindful of having more white sources. I'm aware that this deck is definitely moving toward the W/B Tokens side, but it just has much more disruption and I think it has a much better gameplan overall
White-Black Denial (This is what Mtggoldfish seems to call it), but I still like WB Sewer in honor of Gabe Nassif.
The problem is that the 3cmc curve is already topped with both Lilianas and Lingering Souls, which only leaves free spots on the >=4cmc (taken by Sorin / Gideon) and <=2cmc (which is much better in BG with the Goyfs and Oozes). I haven't find a good 2cmc creature that acts as a finisher, though. The rats are interesting, but you need card advantage and not needing the cards in hand for them to work. You also need Mutavaults, which I think are inferior to FoR since the latter can act as a removal for manlands and as a way to consolidate the victory against Tron.
For Pack Rats, this is where I wonder about how well Night's Whisper would do, especially since it's card advantage. If you could combine those two you might have something.
I find this list to be pretty cool. I have noticed that most of my losses were coming from: 1. Tron, 2. Dredge 3. Amulet Titan, aka "Unfair" Decks that are insanely fast and can get something out before you can respond. I think that this deck does a really good job of taking care of those bad matchups, since in my experience nearly every other matchup is at least 50/50. Gideon is just an insane beating against control matchups and he doesn't die to Celestial Purge which is nice!
For those of you who've played with Death Cloud, what matchups do you normally bring it in for? That's the one thing I'm never sure of. Just fair creature matchups?
I also just noticed that Lili the Last Hope is almost 50 bucks now, jeez.
@Muad'dib That's a nice list. How is the Settle the Wreckage working for you? I've been thinking about trying it as a 1-of in the SB but my list is quite tight.
Thanks for the compliments about the list, it's been performing beyond my expectations. Regarding Settle - it's been decent, not amazing. I think I actually like Kalitas more because he can just take over creature matchups anyway, and it's more proactive. I haven't tested him in the deck yet but I notice that you and a lot of others are moving towards putting one in there!
Kalitas is there to have a slight opportunity against Dredge on G1 and to add an early lifelinker against aggro decks. I've also tried Batterskull in this spot and, while it's really good, drawing it with Bob can be difficult. I also didn't want to have a higher curve.
I added +4 Night's Whispers to improve the overall consistency of the deck. This is the latest addition and, while it can look painful, we still have a lot of ways to gain life.
I like the deck! I'm worried about the Night's Whisper for burn but I guess it's a meta dependent thing. I'm definitely considering throwing a singleton in there.
Ended up scrapping the previous changes for this. I still maintain that Serra avenger was solid, but I think this creature lineup is better overall.
I still also maintain that fulminator is underwhelming most of the time, but I'm going to keep trying it. Surely it's impactful sometimes if so many people sideboard it.
The 2 Kalitas are a mainboard hedge against dredge and they can just snowball games anyway.
I'm liking the Kalitas you and other posters are talking about. I'm going to throw some in there. Regarding Fulminator, that's totally fine if you're not a big fan - a lot of people here seem to like Field of Ruin more. In my meta there is burn and a lot of different control, but not so much Tron. Fulminator does work vs Control because it can do beatdown (I've had it get to a 4/2 with both Sorins out) and also take out lands.
The board is flush with boardwipes because siding into so many of them is devastating against any go-wide small creature deck. In my experience, humans is pretty rough in game 1, but afterwards a good boardwipe or two and it's smooth sailing.
Definitely agreed about boardwipes.
Also, I went down to 24 lands. More often than not with 25 I was getting to 10-12 lands with almost nothing/stone nothing to spend all that mana on.
Yeah I've been feeling that I need to drop down to 24 as well. I'm lookin at cutting Vault of the Archangel because I've activated it maybe twice out of the 40+ games I've already used. It's just too mana intensive sometimes.
Would like some opinions on a few things I've been trying.
2 Serra avenger in place of 2 Sculler in the main (shifting those scullers to the sideboard). Sculler isn't always great, but in the right matchups it's pretty devastating so I still want access to all 4. Having the 3/3 flying vigilance has been pretty potent so far.
The problem is that you can't cast Serra Avenger early which you normally can with Vial.
A one-of empty the pits either main or side. This deck doesn't exactly dump cards into the graveyard, but in games that go longer it can be an abrupt pivot to being the beatdown if you cast it for a large sum on your opponent's endstep.
For one, creating a single "zombie" will cost 6 mana base with Empty The Pits. The deck turns the corner plenty fine with the 2 Sorins and the Lingering Souls, plus all the manlands. If you -really- need an instant speed card, stick with Secure The Wastes. This deck makes a lot of tokens but it's not a token deck.
I'm also kind of considering dropping fulminators altogether. I just don't see beating Tron as a possibility so it's possible that we could use the slots to shore up matchups that aren't so lopsided. If I'm mistaken on this let me know though.
I don't see why you would do that. If it's that bad, just do 3 Field of Ruin main instead of Mutavaults, and have multiple Stony Silence + a Surgical in the side.
Speaking of which, here's my current decklist. I used Gabe Nassif's version as a base, and then added some stuff from the Challenge, notably the Settle in the sideboard and the Fetid Heath maindeck.
The sideboard has the most alterations, as I've also included an Anguished Unmaking. To be honest I haven't been that happy with the 2nd Collective Brutality and I want to replace it with something else. This deck seems to have a lot of trouble with Green Decks like value company and Hardened Scales so I'd like to add something there to shore those up.
// 4 Creature
4 Dark Confidant
// 8 Instant
4 Path to Exile
4 Fatal Push
// 24 Land
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
4 Field of Ruin
2 Plains
4 Marsh Flats
2 Shambling Vent
3 Swamp
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Mutavault
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
// 10 Planeswalker
2 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Lingering Souls
3 Collective Brutality
// 3 Artifact
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Ensnaring Bridge
// 5 Creature
4 Fulminator Mage
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
// 4 Enchantment
2 Stony Silence
2 Leyline of the Void
// 2 Instant
2 Surgical Extraction
// 1 Sorcery
1 Damnation
Also, I still got smashed by Tron but them's the breaks. Ben's maindeck is so bad against Tron G1 that you might as well just concede upon seeing a Urza land and go to sideboarding. Probably didn't help that I really only drew removal and lands, but still, I can't imagine it being too much better.
In my own meta I didn't ever really bring in Tocatli Honor Guard so I would probably remove them for a sweeper and engineered explosives.
4 Fulminator Mage
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Leyline Of The Void
1 Celestial Purge
2 Tocatli Honor Guard
The sideboard is basically a huge "up yours" to Tron and graveyard decks, which are the 2 decks we've traditionally struggled with. I find it funny that in previous months we had debated FoR vs Fulminator, only to have him just jam playsets of both. I'm going to give it a run with no changes tomorrow and see how I like it!
The Liliana is more of just an alternate wincon in this deck. It definitely seems to be a meta call - the Mythic Championship didn't have a lot of burn, for example. I would agree about lack of lifegain. It seems like he's hedging really hard for the 4 Shambling Vent and the Vault of the Archangel. Kaya and Collective Brutality also offer some incidental lifegain. I'm going to test out the build today vs some friends once I see the full sideboard.
2 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Dark Confidant
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Lingering Souls
3 Collective Brutality
4 Path to Exile
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
4 Field of Ruin
2 Plains
4 Marsh Flats
4 Shambling Vent
3 Swamp
1 Vault of the Archangel
60 Cards
1 Celestial Purge
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Stony Silence
1 Leyline of the Void
https://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/2019MC2/mythic-championship-ii-london-decklists-s
The thing is that versus big mana, you have to have a fast clock - which the Mutavaults can often provide. As you yourself found out, even 6 land destruction spells aren't enough. I've seen and played enough Tron to know that even Blood Moon isn't lights out if they can't assemble something quickly.
Fulminator at the very least trades with most aggro creatures in a worst-case scenario. I think that we're not really so much arguing over Fulminator vs FoR, but FoR vs Mutavault. I'd probably not mind replacing Vault with another Mutavault to have 3 total in my list.
One thing I'm thinking is that Damping Sphere is probably preferable to most of the alternatives in general.
Unfortunate to hear about your results, but at least it was a good learning experience. For posterity’s sake, would you mind posting what decks you went up against? I can kind of sort of figure out that you played vs Control and Midrange, but that’s about it. I definitely like the 1 maindeck Nihil Spellbomb, that's a smart choice.
Right, and FoR is just a colorless land for the matches where it’s not, -and- it’s harder to sideboard with them, too.
Fulminator makes for a great threat and allows us to be more proactive. It’s a 3 mana spell that comes down as a 2/2 and always threatens. I’m glad that you are liking Field of Ruin, but unfortunately, you’re losing a ton of firepower with the loss of the Mutavaults.
My concern is that you’re dropping Mutavaults for Field of Ruin, so you lose the ability to turn the corner, which then further warrants more changes main deck. You’ll need to add more white mana for multiple Gideons, and I’m not sure what you would drop to change it.
That being said, like you, I still rarely find a use for Vault of the Archangel. This deck uses its mana nearly every turn and I haven’t really found too many spots where I just happen to have 5 mana open to activate it.
Unfortunately, I think that Fulminator really is the best that we can do.
I believe that the reason this deck does well is that it ruthlessly destroys the synergies in your opponent’s deck while generally advancing your own gameplan at the same time. A typical B/W deck will have at least 11-12 hand disruption cards, discard from Liliana, and of course, removal for key creatures. Remember, this is a midrange deck, so it can shift gears depending on the matchup. Fulminator Mage is the only land destruction card I know of that helps you do both.
I’ve had 4/2 lifeline Fulminators attacking, as well as a 2/2 that serves as a chump blocker, as well as a mana screwer. It’s a great card for this deck.
The Rock (G/B) can use FoR because it has powerful beaters like Grim Flayer and Tarmogoyf to offset - we don't. Thus, we need different cards to achieve similar purposes.
BTW, I echo everyone in saying that Assassin’s Trophy should have been W/B!
So big changes: +1 Fulminator, -1 Swamp, -1 Sorin Solemn, +1 Gideon
Gideon closes out games like nobody's business but you have to be mindful of having more white sources. I'm aware that this deck is definitely moving toward the W/B Tokens side, but it just has much more disruption and I think it has a much better gameplan overall
White-Black Denial (This is what Mtggoldfish seems to call it), but I still like WB Sewer in honor of Gabe Nassif.
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Fulminator Mage
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
//5 Instant
4 Fatal Push
1 Path to Exile
//24 Land
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
2 Mutavault
2 Plains
2 Shambling Vent
5 Swamp
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Fetid Heath
//8 Planeswalker
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Brutality
4 Lingering Souls
//2 Artifact
2 Ensnaring Bridge
//3 Creature
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
//4 Enchantment
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
//1 Instant
1 Anguished Unmaking
//5 Sorcery
1 Duress
1 Collective Brutality
2 Damnation
1 Death Cloud
For Pack Rats, this is where I wonder about how well Night's Whisper would do, especially since it's card advantage. If you could combine those two you might have something.
:edit: Also, here's the most recent 5-0 from November 2nd. It follows Gabe Nassif's list and the most recent challenge list, with a few cool alterations
Big things
Maindeck
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar in place of a Sorin, Solemn Visitor
3 Fulminator Mage
24 Lands (-1 Shambling Vent)
Sideboard:
1 Death Cloud
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Fulminator Mage
You can see the whole thing here, I just summarized the main changes:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1441139#paper
I find this list to be pretty cool. I have noticed that most of my losses were coming from: 1. Tron, 2. Dredge 3. Amulet Titan, aka "Unfair" Decks that are insanely fast and can get something out before you can respond. I think that this deck does a really good job of taking care of those bad matchups, since in my experience nearly every other matchup is at least 50/50. Gideon is just an insane beating against control matchups and he doesn't die to Celestial Purge which is nice!
For those of you who've played with Death Cloud, what matchups do you normally bring it in for? That's the one thing I'm never sure of. Just fair creature matchups?
I also just noticed that Lili the Last Hope is almost 50 bucks now, jeez.
Thanks for the compliments about the list, it's been performing beyond my expectations. Regarding Settle - it's been decent, not amazing. I think I actually like Kalitas more because he can just take over creature matchups anyway, and it's more proactive. I haven't tested him in the deck yet but I notice that you and a lot of others are moving towards putting one in there!
I like the deck! I'm worried about the Night's Whisper for burn but I guess it's a meta dependent thing. I'm definitely considering throwing a singleton in there.
I'm liking the Kalitas you and other posters are talking about. I'm going to throw some in there. Regarding Fulminator, that's totally fine if you're not a big fan - a lot of people here seem to like Field of Ruin more. In my meta there is burn and a lot of different control, but not so much Tron. Fulminator does work vs Control because it can do beatdown (I've had it get to a 4/2 with both Sorins out) and also take out lands.
Definitely agreed about boardwipes.
Yeah I've been feeling that I need to drop down to 24 as well. I'm lookin at cutting Vault of the Archangel because I've activated it maybe twice out of the 40+ games I've already used. It's just too mana intensive sometimes.
The problem is that you can't cast Serra Avenger early which you normally can with Vial.
For one, creating a single "zombie" will cost 6 mana base with Empty The Pits. The deck turns the corner plenty fine with the 2 Sorins and the Lingering Souls, plus all the manlands. If you -really- need an instant speed card, stick with Secure The Wastes. This deck makes a lot of tokens but it's not a token deck.
I don't see why you would do that. If it's that bad, just do 3 Field of Ruin main instead of Mutavaults, and have multiple Stony Silence + a Surgical in the side.
Speaking of which, here's my current decklist. I used Gabe Nassif's version as a base, and then added some stuff from the Challenge, notably the Settle in the sideboard and the Fetid Heath maindeck.
The sideboard has the most alterations, as I've also included an Anguished Unmaking. To be honest I haven't been that happy with the 2nd Collective Brutality and I want to replace it with something else. This deck seems to have a lot of trouble with Green Decks like value company and Hardened Scales so I'd like to add something there to shore those up.
// 10 Creature
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Fulminator Mage
// 5 Instant
4 Fatal Push
1 Path to Exile
// 25 Land
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
2 Mutavault
2 Plains
2 Shambling Vent
6 Swamp
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Fetid Heath
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
// 12 Sorcery
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Brutality
4 Lingering Souls
// 2 Artifact
2 Ensnaring Bridge
// 3 Creature
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
2 Fulminator Mage
// 4 Enchantment
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
// 2 Instant
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Settle the Wreckage
// 4 Sorcery
1 Duress
1 Collective Brutality
2 Damnation