Also, why Scourge of the Throne? I never really liked that card for duels and never really understood why so many people like it. Is there some hidden synergy i dont realize?
@theonecalledrune I would appreciate it if you would check it out as well.
Here's the thing about scourge. He's kinda crappy on his own. But surrounded by a decent haste outlet, an early established creature swarm, and dethrone "turned on", he's a finisher, plain and simple. If you decide to put in kiki-jiki as your five drop, i think you can do even 3-4 combat steps with a life outlet like unspeakable symbol or spellskite. A good finisher at the 6 drop spot, but only if you have quality set pieces at the lower portions of the mana curve. I also like him because he does not rely on marchesa to make a huge mess of your opponent. He has his own dethrone. And the extra combat step is going to hurt, most likely kill.
When going against high quality duel commander decks, never think that your quality creature threats can stay in play for more than a turn or 2. Situational cards should also be cut. puppeteer clique is bad i think. Sower of temptation will find it's uses though. Gilded drake I believe can find a spot in the deck. I strongly agree with adding power blue pieces like vendilion clique and snapcaster mage. Venser is also a good piece to have.
@Decimator1's suggestion of shadowmage infiltrator fits in the deck, because he's a relatively cheap body that draws cards.
@yujipooji, wow i really appreciate all the effort and thought that you put into your response, i wasnt expecting anything that long and detailed. I should have specified that i don't actually go by french rules. I use the regular rules and just play 1v1 matches but your help is still very relevant. Maybe i'll make a decklist and post it and you can see what you think. Thanks for the detailed responce.
Haha no problem! It may be a long ass response, but that's all really theoretical and should be taken with a grain of salt. @theonecalledrune I believe is the marchesa expert here so I think he'll be able to answer your questions better. =)
as for mindless automaton, He's nice to have if you'll run a reanimator package with reanimate or yawgmoth's will or something.. But if it's strictly to draw cards, there might be better pieces out there.. but i do like that he doesn't need color fixing to cast, and that he actually can come back to life on his own with marchesa in play =))
I like mulldrifter for drawing, and dark confidant or pain seer double up as life outlets to keep dethrone running. As mentioned, instant draw spells from black which I mentioned in the previous comment draw you a crap load of cards and loses you life all in one.
Well, if you're not running a french banlist, my comments still apply. Lowering your curve to less than 4 except if they end games like @theonecalledrune said will help you keep up with the speed of decks like rafiq. In fact, a non-french 1v1 gives you access to sol ring, so that's good. entomb i believe is still legal in traditional commander, so you can run anger and it'll be a really nice haste outlet to have. scourge of the throne would be the 6 drop that you'll want to play as a finisher of sorts.
If you're more into 1v1 commander than multiplayer, I really suggest trying out a full blown duel commander complete with the french banlist. In my opinion it's faster, more exciting, and more balanced as far as 1v1 is concerned. I play traditional commander these days strictly multiplayer. In 1v1 traditional commander, assuming the decks going against each other are evenly matched, some games end up being decided by whoever draws sol ring first to ramp into their biggest threat. The french banlist and 30 life balances a lot of those things out. Rafiq actually has had a lot of success in that format, so you can convince your friend into going french too. Just my two cents. =)
For French I recommend a discard/counter package, drop everything that costs more than 4 that doesn't win the game on the spot, and definitely run all the really good suicide black cards like confidant and the like.
Hi, what quality pieces would you recommend for a french build? The creature lineup to me is a real head-scratcher. I actually really believe marchesa can do great in DC, and I think she's the best general that can represent grixis colors in the format. If you had the time, I'd appreciate it if you can get specific with stuff that can be incorporated into the deck, especially the creatures. =)
I have also been in love with Marchesa since the first day I saw her spoiled. I have been working (mainly struggling) on a competitive duals version of her since the day i could get hands on a copy. My best friend has an extreamly fast and dangerous Rafiq deck that tends to defeat Marchesa more often then not and I was wondering if you had any suggestions for more dual oriented cards that you may have excluded for political reasons. I saw you mentioned Jokelhaups was in your deck but you took it out because your opponents just scooped in frusteration, thats the kind of thing that you can get away with in duals. Any other cards you would reccomend for duals?
Well I think in general you'll want to lower the curve a little to be duel commander playable. Oona's blackguard is great. I'm not sure how a french version is to played, but I don't see dethrone activating more than once per match.. Then maybe with 2-3 creatures with counters on the board, cast jokulhaups for the win. I'd stuff as many tutors as I can to get jokulhaups or sneak attack and take out really expensive trippy cards like kiki-jiki, flayer of the hatebound, etc. I'd definitely play magus of the moon and maybe even blood moon for synergy with sneak attack, and it absolutely destroys tri-color. Having those in play would basically cause Rafiq to automatically lose. I'd play a bit more control cards for a 1v1 game like mana leak, cryptic command, etc. Burn spells and pinpoint removal should get a bit more of play as well, along with disruption like duress, inquisition of kozilek, etc.
I think the fundamental difference between multiplayer marchesa and duel commander marchesa would be this: for multiplayer, you flex more of marchesa's dethrone muscle for a really insane board state that can kill off multiple players at will. For duel, you have to flex more of the grixis muscle, using marchesa's colors to disrupt, burn, counter and remove all threats, swing with cheap efficient creatures to get a counter, then sweep for a 1-sided board state for the win.
There are great board sweepers that double up as life outlets so we can get our life low enough to trigger dethrone.. toxic deluge comes to mind. fire covenant is great as well. damnation becomes more relevant too. Obliterate is great but too expensive to cast. If you want your sweepers to be uncounterable, boseiju, who shelters all is good.
Having planeswalkers might help as well. Liliana of the veil will be an auto include i believe. I'll read up on what else is applicable.
dark confidant is cheap enough to cast, and life fixes us for more dethrone. By lowering our curve, we can prevent confidant from going overboard with the life loss. Unspeakable symbol is a 3-drop enchantment that can gives us counters without attacking, and can fix our life as well. spellskite can redirect spells away from marchesa to protect her, costs only 2 mana, and fixes life as well. carrion feeder is a 1 drop sac outlet, and viscera seer does the same and can help us dig for what we need. Card advantage is soooo important in duel commander. In evenly matched decks, the person with more cards in hand has the definite advantage.
Having a haste outlet is important to be able to dethrone immediately, so maybe fervor, or even lightning greaves for marchesa is a good addition. anger is ok as well, but i'm not sure how to get that into the graveyard with entomb banned in the format. hammer of purphoros has little bit of synergy with blood moon and magus of the moon, and can help you work towards a 1-sided board state by getting rid of the extra mountains you no longer need.
Tutors from the top of my head: demonic tutor, diabolic intent, gamble and tainted pact cost only 2 mana. grim tutor costs 3, but it life fixes as well, but costs a crapload of money. However, if I were to spend a crapload of money on imperial recruiter, grim tutor might be a better buy, at least in this format.. I'm not comfortable playing other tutors coz they cost more mana. Tutors as a whole are really important so you can get important pieces. Since you mentioned rafiq, tutoring for blood moon, clearing the board with removal and casting it could win you the game automatically. If you have sneak attack in play, you'll actually want all your lands to make red.
1-time card advantage helps you with your life total as well, and refills your hand. night's whisper, read the bones come to mind.. skeletal scrying is awesome. Instant speed draw, life fixing. Just awesome. For more constant draw, I'd play phyrexian arena.
Polishing your mana-base is probably as important as the non-land pieces, if not more. If you find yourself constantly unable to cast marchesa by turn 4 AT THE LATEST, the duel commander format will just eat you alive. Any ramp is good. Run all the signets, the 2 talismans (indulgence and dominance I believe), probably fellwar stone and maybe charcoal diamond. 6-8 mana rocks in a color pie without inherent ramp is reasonable. I'd play chrome mox as well, but i'm not sure how that would turn out. Boseiju helps make sweepers uncounterable, and life fixes. Cavern of souls helps Marchesa resolve. wasteland is a format staple, and a fulminator mage that you can sacrifice at least twice can set your opponents back. Play all the shocklands, 9 fetchlands, ouchlands, buddy lands, city of brass and mana confluence for smoother casting, and for life fixing. riptide laboratory is an auto-include that can save marchesa from commander tax and exile. Volrath's stronghold and phyrexian tower makes for a good way to save exiling threats, with tolaria west tutoring any of the utility lands we need. high market is good. I don't think we have the luxury of playing miren, the moaning well in a faster format like duel. phyrexian altar is a great sac outlet and can help us ramp into bigger spells early. What those bigger spells are, I still have no idea. Griselbrand I think might be an amazing curve topper to ramp into. his ability can win games, and the lifelink can save us in case we forgot we were playing with 30 life instead of 40. crucible of worlds lets you fetch infinitely, fixing life total and thinning out your deck, and can recycle wasteland for the lockout.
I have to read up more on the best creatures to play, but those I discussed above are i think the minimum to make her competitive relative to other generals in the format. As you can see, they are very expensive money-wise, because this is one type of deck you can't win simply by virtue of our general alone. I doubt there can be a budget list for Marchesa that is playable in the format =(
Also, the list in this page might not even be remotely applicable in DC, and an overhaul is required to make it viable in a 1v1 30-life format. This might warrant a separate discussion from what is being talked about in this thread.. =(
Hope this helps, if anyone has a nice creature-base more suited for french, please let me know =) That's the one component of the french build that I can't seem to figure out. marton stromgald maybe? but what to swarm with I have no idea. I think goblin rabblemaster and creatures with unleash like rakdos cackler are good to have on board. arcbound ravager maybe? I really just want to go for cheap ass creatures to dethrone with when marchesa comes out turn 4, then sweep a turn later. vendilion clique, and true-name nemesis might be worth considering. Early creature swarm is exactly why you'll need a lot of ways to get your life even lower than your opponents. You want to hurt them, all the while hurting yourself more, then with marchesa out, wipe the board and kill. I feel like anything slower than that will just get devoured by other decks mid-late game..
The one thing that marchesa has going for her is this.. Grixis is an amazing control color combination with the drawback of not having any way to mitigate the lifeloss for paying for all the cool black spells.. But this works for us because dethrone actually wants this to happen.. The question really is whether or not she can keep up with the cutthroat meta.
@yujipooji Hey! I play Marchesa too and am from the Philippines as well. Magus of the Moon will be a metagame call, depending on how well-tuned your local EDH circle's decklists are and how many of them are tri-color Besides, it doesn't matter if you yourself are casting Jokulhaups and Obliterate back-to-back without losing your army.
Marchesa can be made viable for French, I've seen some lists in mtgtop8.com
Oh hello!! I actually don't play jokulhaups coz it gets my friends scooping. =p But i might want to add it soon. Magus just seems like a more humane alternative to win. Mass land destruction is just frowned upon at my table, and multiplayer-wise my playgroup is a lot more casual.. For French though, that's a different story.
I'll take a look at the mtgtop 8 lists, thanks. Although dethrone will be so hard to maintain in 1v1 it seems.
If you play French as well, let me know!! Me and 2 of my friends are looking for more people to playtest with. =) Our french lineup includes Kaalia, Talrand, Geist, Marath and Anafenza so if it's a diverse enough lineup to practice with.
Hello, love your list!! I'm running it (minus imperial recruiter and duals) and I'm not only winning, but having a lot of fun!
Although speaking of the complete opposite of fun, has anyone considered magus of the moon? Once sneak attack is in play, this is a mana fix and lockout card all in one. Also, with our crapload of sac outlets, if we feel like we need the rest of our colors again, it's easy to get rid of. He is also tutorable by imperial recruiter, and can be sneaked into play. Having him even for just one turn for a game winning alpha strike can prevent shenanigans as well.
Locking people into red takes out nearly all enchantment hate, and leaves only burn and a few "destroy all" effects as the only available removal in the game. Which we kind of don't give a rat's butthole about because of dethrone. Sorry in advance if this has already been brought up. I just don't see many basic lands when I play multiplayer, so that card just came into mind.
Here's the thing about scourge. He's kinda crappy on his own. But surrounded by a decent haste outlet, an early established creature swarm, and dethrone "turned on", he's a finisher, plain and simple. If you decide to put in kiki-jiki as your five drop, i think you can do even 3-4 combat steps with a life outlet like unspeakable symbol or spellskite. A good finisher at the 6 drop spot, but only if you have quality set pieces at the lower portions of the mana curve. I also like him because he does not rely on marchesa to make a huge mess of your opponent. He has his own dethrone. And the extra combat step is going to hurt, most likely kill.
When going against high quality duel commander decks, never think that your quality creature threats can stay in play for more than a turn or 2. Situational cards should also be cut. puppeteer clique is bad i think. Sower of temptation will find it's uses though. Gilded drake I believe can find a spot in the deck. I strongly agree with adding power blue pieces like vendilion clique and snapcaster mage. Venser is also a good piece to have.
@Decimator1's suggestion of shadowmage infiltrator fits in the deck, because he's a relatively cheap body that draws cards.
I think creeping tar pit will be an all star in french. profaner of the dead is good for a one-sided board wipe, and so is cyclonic rift.
I'll take a look at your link in a bit =)
Haha no problem! It may be a long ass response, but that's all really theoretical and should be taken with a grain of salt. @theonecalledrune I believe is the marchesa expert here so I think he'll be able to answer your questions better. =)
as for mindless automaton, He's nice to have if you'll run a reanimator package with reanimate or yawgmoth's will or something.. But if it's strictly to draw cards, there might be better pieces out there.. but i do like that he doesn't need color fixing to cast, and that he actually can come back to life on his own with marchesa in play =))
I like mulldrifter for drawing, and dark confidant or pain seer double up as life outlets to keep dethrone running. As mentioned, instant draw spells from black which I mentioned in the previous comment draw you a crap load of cards and loses you life all in one.
Well, if you're not running a french banlist, my comments still apply. Lowering your curve to less than 4 except if they end games like @theonecalledrune said will help you keep up with the speed of decks like rafiq. In fact, a non-french 1v1 gives you access to sol ring, so that's good. entomb i believe is still legal in traditional commander, so you can run anger and it'll be a really nice haste outlet to have. scourge of the throne would be the 6 drop that you'll want to play as a finisher of sorts.
If you're more into 1v1 commander than multiplayer, I really suggest trying out a full blown duel commander complete with the french banlist. In my opinion it's faster, more exciting, and more balanced as far as 1v1 is concerned. I play traditional commander these days strictly multiplayer. In 1v1 traditional commander, assuming the decks going against each other are evenly matched, some games end up being decided by whoever draws sol ring first to ramp into their biggest threat. The french banlist and 30 life balances a lot of those things out. Rafiq actually has had a lot of success in that format, so you can convince your friend into going french too. Just my two cents. =)
Hi, what quality pieces would you recommend for a french build? The creature lineup to me is a real head-scratcher. I actually really believe marchesa can do great in DC, and I think she's the best general that can represent grixis colors in the format. If you had the time, I'd appreciate it if you can get specific with stuff that can be incorporated into the deck, especially the creatures. =)
Well I think in general you'll want to lower the curve a little to be duel commander playable. Oona's blackguard is great. I'm not sure how a french version is to played, but I don't see dethrone activating more than once per match.. Then maybe with 2-3 creatures with counters on the board, cast jokulhaups for the win. I'd stuff as many tutors as I can to get jokulhaups or sneak attack and take out really expensive trippy cards like kiki-jiki, flayer of the hatebound, etc. I'd definitely play magus of the moon and maybe even blood moon for synergy with sneak attack, and it absolutely destroys tri-color. Having those in play would basically cause Rafiq to automatically lose. I'd play a bit more control cards for a 1v1 game like mana leak, cryptic command, etc. Burn spells and pinpoint removal should get a bit more of play as well, along with disruption like duress, inquisition of kozilek, etc.
I think the fundamental difference between multiplayer marchesa and duel commander marchesa would be this: for multiplayer, you flex more of marchesa's dethrone muscle for a really insane board state that can kill off multiple players at will. For duel, you have to flex more of the grixis muscle, using marchesa's colors to disrupt, burn, counter and remove all threats, swing with cheap efficient creatures to get a counter, then sweep for a 1-sided board state for the win.
There are great board sweepers that double up as life outlets so we can get our life low enough to trigger dethrone.. toxic deluge comes to mind. fire covenant is great as well. damnation becomes more relevant too. Obliterate is great but too expensive to cast. If you want your sweepers to be uncounterable, boseiju, who shelters all is good.
Pinpoint removal package would include: dreadbore, hero's downfall, go for the throat and terminate.. diabolic edict and devour flesh for Geist.
Discard package: duress, inquisition of kozilek, distress, hymn to tourach, thoughtseize, even brain maggot or mesmeric fiend if you really want your opponent's hand empty.
You can add a small land hate package: sinkhole, wasteland and pillage, with fulminator mage and avalanche riders as creatures
Having planeswalkers might help as well. Liliana of the veil will be an auto include i believe. I'll read up on what else is applicable.
dark confidant is cheap enough to cast, and life fixes us for more dethrone. By lowering our curve, we can prevent confidant from going overboard with the life loss. Unspeakable symbol is a 3-drop enchantment that can gives us counters without attacking, and can fix our life as well. spellskite can redirect spells away from marchesa to protect her, costs only 2 mana, and fixes life as well. carrion feeder is a 1 drop sac outlet, and viscera seer does the same and can help us dig for what we need. Card advantage is soooo important in duel commander. In evenly matched decks, the person with more cards in hand has the definite advantage.
Having a haste outlet is important to be able to dethrone immediately, so maybe fervor, or even lightning greaves for marchesa is a good addition. anger is ok as well, but i'm not sure how to get that into the graveyard with entomb banned in the format. hammer of purphoros has little bit of synergy with blood moon and magus of the moon, and can help you work towards a 1-sided board state by getting rid of the extra mountains you no longer need.
Tutors from the top of my head: demonic tutor, diabolic intent, gamble and tainted pact cost only 2 mana. grim tutor costs 3, but it life fixes as well, but costs a crapload of money. However, if I were to spend a crapload of money on imperial recruiter, grim tutor might be a better buy, at least in this format.. I'm not comfortable playing other tutors coz they cost more mana. Tutors as a whole are really important so you can get important pieces. Since you mentioned rafiq, tutoring for blood moon, clearing the board with removal and casting it could win you the game automatically. If you have sneak attack in play, you'll actually want all your lands to make red.
1-time card advantage helps you with your life total as well, and refills your hand. night's whisper, read the bones come to mind.. skeletal scrying is awesome. Instant speed draw, life fixing. Just awesome. For more constant draw, I'd play phyrexian arena.
Polishing your mana-base is probably as important as the non-land pieces, if not more. If you find yourself constantly unable to cast marchesa by turn 4 AT THE LATEST, the duel commander format will just eat you alive. Any ramp is good. Run all the signets, the 2 talismans (indulgence and dominance I believe), probably fellwar stone and maybe charcoal diamond. 6-8 mana rocks in a color pie without inherent ramp is reasonable. I'd play chrome mox as well, but i'm not sure how that would turn out. Boseiju helps make sweepers uncounterable, and life fixes. Cavern of souls helps Marchesa resolve. wasteland is a format staple, and a fulminator mage that you can sacrifice at least twice can set your opponents back. Play all the shocklands, 9 fetchlands, ouchlands, buddy lands, city of brass and mana confluence for smoother casting, and for life fixing. riptide laboratory is an auto-include that can save marchesa from commander tax and exile. Volrath's stronghold and phyrexian tower makes for a good way to save exiling threats, with tolaria west tutoring any of the utility lands we need. high market is good. I don't think we have the luxury of playing miren, the moaning well in a faster format like duel. phyrexian altar is a great sac outlet and can help us ramp into bigger spells early. What those bigger spells are, I still have no idea. Griselbrand I think might be an amazing curve topper to ramp into. his ability can win games, and the lifelink can save us in case we forgot we were playing with 30 life instead of 40. crucible of worlds lets you fetch infinitely, fixing life total and thinning out your deck, and can recycle wasteland for the lockout.
I have to read up more on the best creatures to play, but those I discussed above are i think the minimum to make her competitive relative to other generals in the format. As you can see, they are very expensive money-wise, because this is one type of deck you can't win simply by virtue of our general alone. I doubt there can be a budget list for Marchesa that is playable in the format =(
Also, the list in this page might not even be remotely applicable in DC, and an overhaul is required to make it viable in a 1v1 30-life format. This might warrant a separate discussion from what is being talked about in this thread.. =(
Hope this helps, if anyone has a nice creature-base more suited for french, please let me know =) That's the one component of the french build that I can't seem to figure out. marton stromgald maybe? but what to swarm with I have no idea. I think goblin rabblemaster and creatures with unleash like rakdos cackler are good to have on board. arcbound ravager maybe? I really just want to go for cheap ass creatures to dethrone with when marchesa comes out turn 4, then sweep a turn later. vendilion clique, and true-name nemesis might be worth considering. Early creature swarm is exactly why you'll need a lot of ways to get your life even lower than your opponents. You want to hurt them, all the while hurting yourself more, then with marchesa out, wipe the board and kill. I feel like anything slower than that will just get devoured by other decks mid-late game..
The one thing that marchesa has going for her is this.. Grixis is an amazing control color combination with the drawback of not having any way to mitigate the lifeloss for paying for all the cool black spells.. But this works for us because dethrone actually wants this to happen.. The question really is whether or not she can keep up with the cutthroat meta.
Oh hello!! I actually don't play jokulhaups coz it gets my friends scooping. =p But i might want to add it soon. Magus just seems like a more humane alternative to win. Mass land destruction is just frowned upon at my table, and multiplayer-wise my playgroup is a lot more casual.. For French though, that's a different story.
I'll take a look at the mtgtop 8 lists, thanks. Although dethrone will be so hard to maintain in 1v1 it seems.
If you play French as well, let me know!! Me and 2 of my friends are looking for more people to playtest with. =) Our french lineup includes Kaalia, Talrand, Geist, Marath and Anafenza so if it's a diverse enough lineup to practice with.
Although speaking of the complete opposite of fun, has anyone considered magus of the moon? Once sneak attack is in play, this is a mana fix and lockout card all in one. Also, with our crapload of sac outlets, if we feel like we need the rest of our colors again, it's easy to get rid of. He is also tutorable by imperial recruiter, and can be sneaked into play. Having him even for just one turn for a game winning alpha strike can prevent shenanigans as well.
Locking people into red takes out nearly all enchantment hate, and leaves only burn and a few "destroy all" effects as the only available removal in the game. Which we kind of don't give a rat's butthole about because of dethrone. Sorry in advance if this has already been brought up. I just don't see many basic lands when I play multiplayer, so that card just came into mind.
Thanks again, Marchesa rocks!! <3
PS: Can she be competitive in french?