Anyone already had the pleasure of playing with Marchesa's new toys? Curious how they played out! For me, Metallic Mimic, Yehenni, Undying Partisan and Treasure Keeper all made it in, but unfortunately can't play a game until next week..
All in all set looks great so far, my Brago and Ezuri both got new stuff as well ^^
the problem with dropping rocks isn't really slowing down, its getting your colors
i could see with a lower curve that you could drop them, but I would rather not, since landing marchesa is paramount
Fair point. I might have to add that my playgroup allows one free mulligan and then vancouver mulligan rules, so you can take 2 mulligans without too much impact on the game.
That's funny, I had actually finally given in to all the feldon love from this board and was desperately trying to find a way to include him. Now you're making me go back to doubting him lol.
Honestly I would probably cut one or both of the talismans before the signets. I find the ability to turn one colorless mana into two colored incredibly valuable for always hitting my colors as soon as possible. I'm not sure I'm ready to cut the rocks though, and if I did I feel like I'd have to just replace them with lands. I run a very tight ship in terms of mana sources.
Completely agree on Burnished hart. Sorry but I just really don't like that card, he's so clunky. You play him T3 and it does nothing to help you play marchesa on T4. Instead you have to choose which of the next two turns you want to completely give up for him. And whether you want a double Rampant Growth for 6 or wait and hope your opponents give you your obvious value play on T5 by sac'cing him after. No thanks.
Another one I'm mulling over cutting btw is Drana, Liberator of Malakir. On paper she looks perfect for this deck. Good creature, evasive, neat combat trick, and an additional source of +1/+1 counters that works when dethrone no longer does. In reality though she's been really underwhelming for me. She's basically just been overkill, adding counters when I've already won and largely ineffective when I am behind. What's everyone else's experience with her? Am I completely off base here?
Good point on the talismans. I might try and play a few games without the 2 talismans and with the 3 signets in again. I like the lifeloss the talismans have but the strong colorfixing might be beter.
On Drana, Liberator of Malakir; I see what you mean, she is kinda overkill if your boardstate is good (having Marchesa in play and not the highest lifetotal) but I like her as a backup plan or when I do not want to attack the player with the highest lifetotal but the biggest threat. So while she might not be the best creature in the deck, for me personally, she's not on the bottom of the list at this point.
I think that's why a lot of us are going "We need to lower our curve". We never plan on hitting six-seven quickly, as you'll hit it eventually but not always. Hell, I'm thinking the running Wildfire to make the land counts more even is a decent idea.
River Kelpie is a good suggestion, he's good but I try to get my curve as low as possible and Treasure Keeper can take over in terms of card advantage.
Another possible cut for me might be Feldon of the Third Path. His effect is unique in the deck but a lot of times he feels useless. Also, heavy on the R..
Another thing possibly worth sharing:
A few weeks ago I made some changes which lowered my average cmc to 3.58. After a few games I felt that mana ramp wasn't really needed anymore. With 11 2-drops and 12 3-drops I was able to quite consistently go T2 creature -> T3 creature -> T4 marchesa (or with a godhand also a creatures T1). Sometimes I therefore chose not to play a manarock T2, in favor of a creature. And late-game they are just bad draws anyway.
So currently I play without the 3 signets (Dimir Signet, Izzet Signet, Rakdos Signet) and Burnished Hart (has always felt a bit clunky..). A whooping 4 free slots! So far I like it and haven't really missed them!
Lately I've been getting obsessed with adding Stax to my decks as a means to make people stop screwing with my permanents. I build a Brago, King Eternal deck and those guys are a shoe-in because of how often you can put them back into play. You know who else does? Marchesa! Granted, it wouldn't be as often as Ghost King but we are looping these guys regularly enough that they're probably eating permanents and gaining us advantage.
Also, they're all Pirates for Riptide Shapeshifter. Though, to be honest, I'm thinking of cutting him. If my opponents let me assemble my guys under their nose with them, I've probably already won the game.
Personally, I think the Rishadan pirates are a bit too unreliable. I also play a Brago, King Eternal stax deck and I also don't run them in there anymore. Might be my meta, but later in the game, too often people ended up simply paying or saccing a token or something. They do, on the other hand, generate a lot of hate because they're annoying (something I'm used to when playing Brago, but do not particularly want with Marchesa..). Therefore I never considered them for my Marchesa list. They are decent cards, there are just better choices in my opinion.
About Riptide Shapeshifter; looks too slow being a 5UUUU semi-random tutor spell. In most scenario's I would play Diabolic tutor before him, especially since my average cmc is 3.58.
That's brutal, but kinda expensive as well. I run Profaner of the Dead for most of my bouncing needs; at 4cmc and being a wizards makes him an allstar! It's because of him I've cut also cut Cyclonic Rift.
I do like Hanweir Garrison and Hanweir Battlements, but I don't think they make the cut..
Especially since the tokens do not benefit from the dethrone ability at their first attack:
508.4 If a creature is put onto the battlefield attacking, its controller chooses which defending player or which planeswalker a defending player controls it’s attacking as it enters the battlefield (unless the effect that put it onto the battlefield specifies what it’s attacking). Such creatures are “attacking” but, for the purposes of trigger events and effects, they never “attacked.”
Stensia Innkeeper is too costly at 4cmc for what it does, unless you have a meta full of cradles and coffer's. But then again, if that's the case just run Avalanche Riders.
Speaking about Avalanche Riders, that card still seems pretty broken with haste and a self-sacrifice mechanism! Really gotta try it sometime..
That Hanweir Battlements looks nice. Seems like a potential upgrade of Flamekin Village, though I also do not run that card anymore. Don't like it tapping for C though and it will be a though choice dropping a colored land for it. The counterpart Hanweir Garrison (while strong and I'd love to have it meld into an oozing blob pooping tokens) is a bit lacking in synergy and I can't think of any card I'd take out for it.
Now the emerge mechanic, that is something I can get behind! Seems like it's been designed for Marchesa! Please give us something good with it..
Are there any other Grixis cards like spoils of war to distribute counters?
Spoils of War seems pretty bad; you cannot choose X yourself and it's not instant speed. The great thing about Unspeakable Symbol is the fact you can respond to stuff. If you worry about loosing Marchesa, get stuff that gives haste: that way she gets a counter same turn as cast and is much more likely to stick around.
So now that the whole set is spoiled, what are you guys thinking of testing?
Hmm haven't looked very thoroughly at all the cards, but so far I'm just gonna test Olivia, Mobilized for War. That is, if she's gonna drop in price / I draft her, since I find the current price of $15 too much for what she does for the deck.
Also, it's so tempting to try Westvale Abbey! Not because I think it's gonna be good but it's just such an awesome card
I don't see why Confusion in the Ranks doesn't work while Olivia does.
Couldn't the stack for Confusion be: Sac Mulldrifter -> Draw cards -> Confusion trigger from bottom to top? In this case, I'd think you could swap creatures due to Confusion (since it's clearly on the battlefield right now), draw your cards, and the last ability will fizzle since you can't sacrifice a creature you don't control.
I don't see how that stack is different from Sac Mulldrifter -> Draw cards -> Olivia trigger.
Agree with this point of view, I also don't see why Mulldrifter wouldn't be on the battlefield if you stack the trigger in the aforementioned way. (Also found this post)
In addition to that, looking at the rulings on evoke:
702.73a Evoke represents two abilities: a static ability that functions in any zone from which the card with evoke can be cast and a triggered ability that functions on the battlefield. “Evoke [cost]” means “You may cast this card by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost” and “When this permanent enters the battlefield, if its evoke cost was paid, its controller sacrifices it.” Paying a card’s evoke cost follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2f–h.
So if the exchange takes place, it also looks like the new controller still has to sac it.
I don't know for sure since I'm far from a judge myself but just curious on how these situations work out. But then again I don't think anyone runs a Confusion in the Ranks in his Marchesa deck so this might not be the right place to discuss such stuff
The sidisi one works, the mulldrifter one doesn't. When you evoke it is immediately sacrificed when it is put into play. Olivia's trigger is a when so it is put on the stack when mulldrifter enters play but by the time it would get a chance to resolve mulldrifter is already dead.
Anyway fine, I see your points, I'm definitely convinced to try her.
Are you sure? I thought so too but the following line from the rulings page made me think otherwise:
Playing a creature by paying its evoke cost will result in two comes-into-play abilities: The sacrifice ability from evoke, and whatever other ability the creature has. The creature's controller chooses in what order to put them on the stack. Both abilities can be responded to as normal.source
So I thought the new Olivia created the third trigger also allowed to be put on the stack in a chosen order, meaning you could end up with:
Draw 2 -> Place counter + give haste -> Sac
[Edit:] Thinking about it, this means the next time I decide to cast Mulldrifter for it's evoke cost and something like Carrion Feeder is in play, I might as well respond to the evoke sac trigger to at least give Feeder a +1/+1 counter too.
[Edit2:] Off topic, but if correct that means evoke is some nice tech with Confusion in the Ranks
At first I wasn't sure about this one since discarding is not something I like to do. On the other hand, a 3/3 flyer with no downside for 3cmc is always useful and the ability can be a backup plan. The River kelpie combo convinced me though, thats an awesome find
There are also some upsides to the ability even if Marchesa is also in play; casting a Mulldrifter for its evoke cost, nets you 3 cards eot for 3 mana. Orrrrr having Sidisi, Undead Vizier exploit itself; discard 1, tutor 2! (that does work right?)
All in all set looks great so far, my Brago and Ezuri both got new stuff as well ^^
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I play 36 lands, seems like an average amount.
Fair point. I might have to add that my playgroup allows one free mulligan and then vancouver mulligan rules, so you can take 2 mulligans without too much impact on the game.
Good point on the talismans. I might try and play a few games without the 2 talismans and with the 3 signets in again. I like the lifeloss the talismans have but the strong colorfixing might be beter.
On Drana, Liberator of Malakir; I see what you mean, she is kinda overkill if your boardstate is good (having Marchesa in play and not the highest lifetotal) but I like her as a backup plan or when I do not want to attack the player with the highest lifetotal but the biggest threat. So while she might not be the best creature in the deck, for me personally, she's not on the bottom of the list at this point.
Then go all out and put Jokulhaups in there
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My considerations:
Another thing possibly worth sharing:
A few weeks ago I made some changes which lowered my average cmc to 3.58. After a few games I felt that mana ramp wasn't really needed anymore. With 11 2-drops and 12 3-drops I was able to quite consistently go T2 creature -> T3 creature -> T4 marchesa (or with a godhand also a creatures T1). Sometimes I therefore chose not to play a manarock T2, in favor of a creature. And late-game they are just bad draws anyway.
So currently I play without the 3 signets (Dimir Signet, Izzet Signet, Rakdos Signet) and Burnished Hart (has always felt a bit clunky..). A whooping 4 free slots! So far I like it and haven't really missed them!
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Very nice! I guess that will replace Grenzo, Havoc Raiser, fun card but lacks synergy and was never really useful.
Personally, I think the Rishadan pirates are a bit too unreliable. I also play a Brago, King Eternal stax deck and I also don't run them in there anymore. Might be my meta, but later in the game, too often people ended up simply paying or saccing a token or something. They do, on the other hand, generate a lot of hate because they're annoying (something I'm used to when playing Brago, but do not particularly want with Marchesa..). Therefore I never considered them for my Marchesa list. They are decent cards, there are just better choices in my opinion.
About Riptide Shapeshifter; looks too slow being a 5UUUU semi-random tutor spell. In most scenario's I would play Diabolic tutor before him, especially since my average cmc is 3.58.
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That's brutal, but kinda expensive as well. I run Profaner of the Dead for most of my bouncing needs; at 4cmc and being a wizards makes him an allstar! It's because of him I've cut also cut Cyclonic Rift.
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Especially since the tokens do not benefit from the dethrone ability at their first attack:
508.4 If a creature is put onto the battlefield attacking, its controller chooses which defending player or which planeswalker a defending player controls it’s attacking as it enters the battlefield (unless the effect that put it onto the battlefield specifies what it’s attacking). Such creatures are “attacking” but, for the purposes of trigger events and effects, they never “attacked.”
Do agree the art of Hanweir, the Writhing Township is awesome though
Stensia Innkeeper is too costly at 4cmc for what it does, unless you have a meta full of cradles and coffer's. But then again, if that's the case just run Avalanche Riders.
Speaking about Avalanche Riders, that card still seems pretty broken with haste and a self-sacrifice mechanism! Really gotta try it sometime..
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Now the emerge mechanic, that is something I can get behind! Seems like it's been designed for Marchesa! Please give us something good with it..
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Spoils of War seems pretty bad; you cannot choose X yourself and it's not instant speed. The great thing about Unspeakable Symbol is the fact you can respond to stuff. If you worry about loosing Marchesa, get stuff that gives haste: that way she gets a counter same turn as cast and is much more likely to stick around.
Also Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, Drana, Liberator of Malakir and Olivia, Mobilized for War can act as backup generals.
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Also, it's so tempting to try Westvale Abbey! Not because I think it's gonna be good but it's just such an awesome card
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The link in my sig is up to date, though the landbase isn't optimal (no duals/fetch).
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Agree with this point of view, I also don't see why Mulldrifter wouldn't be on the battlefield if you stack the trigger in the aforementioned way. (Also found this post)
In addition to that, looking at the rulings on evoke:
702.73a Evoke represents two abilities: a static ability that functions in any zone from which the card with evoke can be cast and a triggered ability that functions on the battlefield. “Evoke [cost]” means “You may cast this card by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost” and “When this permanent enters the battlefield, if its evoke cost was paid, its controller sacrifices it.” Paying a card’s evoke cost follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2f–h.
So if the exchange takes place, it also looks like the new controller still has to sac it.
I don't know for sure since I'm far from a judge myself but just curious on how these situations work out. But then again I don't think anyone runs a Confusion in the Ranks in his Marchesa deck so this might not be the right place to discuss such stuff
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Are you sure? I thought so too but the following line from the rulings page made me think otherwise:
Playing a creature by paying its evoke cost will result in two comes-into-play abilities: The sacrifice ability from evoke, and whatever other ability the creature has. The creature's controller chooses in what order to put them on the stack. Both abilities can be responded to as normal. source
So I thought the new Olivia created the third trigger also allowed to be put on the stack in a chosen order, meaning you could end up with:
Draw 2 -> Place counter + give haste -> Sac
[Edit:] Thinking about it, this means the next time I decide to cast Mulldrifter for it's evoke cost and something like Carrion Feeder is in play, I might as well respond to the evoke sac trigger to at least give Feeder a +1/+1 counter too.
[Edit2:] Off topic, but if correct that means evoke is some nice tech with Confusion in the Ranks
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That would be especially fun in larger multiplayer games; when it's your turn again you've replaced your whole hand with tutored cards
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There are also some upsides to the ability even if Marchesa is also in play; casting a Mulldrifter for its evoke cost, nets you 3 cards eot for 3 mana. Orrrrr having Sidisi, Undead Vizier exploit itself; discard 1, tutor 2! (that does work right?)
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