You can play Howling Mine and have Fog up on turn 3 without Azorius Signet. I'm not really seeing the benefit. Maybe having two fogs up or a Dawn Charm, but I don't see the need to rush, especially in Turbo Fog.
Also, one thing I noticed. Most lists don't run very many 2 drops (aside from Mines), everything is either 1 or 3 CMC. It might be worth running Chalice of the Void and putting it to 2 to stop a lot of their shenanigans. Stops Remand, Abrupt Decay, Cranial Plating, etc.
It's weak to Rest in Peace, Relic of Progenitus, Tormod's Crypt, and Scavenging Ooze. Not really sure how to deal with the first 3, but we can run plenty of removal for Ooze before he eats anything. Maybe Pithing Needle for the first few? Because of all the 1 drops, we have some early game pressure and can probably get the close to 10ish if they're fetch/shocking themselves.
looking forward to see your list..
which color and/or color combination is deemed the best?
i've heard that blue really has much to offer for turbo fog? unfortunately, my blue collection is a bit meager..so i'm stuck with white and green..is white/green sub-optimal compared to white/blue?
There isn't a definitive deck yet, so any combination of colors could be good. Sure, Blue adds things like Jace Beleren and Dictate of Kruphix, but green adds things like Rites of Flourishing, tons of Fog effects, and Fog itself.
Assuming the primary method of stalling their play is with Fog (or Holy Day, Darkness, etc.), I'm going to list how favorable our match-ups are.
From the Proven list: Jund: We could be good here, depends on how much burn they're packing and how much damage they can get in before we can start chaining Fogs. UWr Midrange: Going up against so much burn and counters, I feel like we're at a disadvantage. RUG Scapeshift: We could be good here depending on what types of Fog we're running. Things like Dawn Charm, Safe Passage, and Leyline of Sanctity stop them cold. But all it takes for them is one Scapeshift to get through. Merfolk: We are good as long as we can out Fog their counters. RU(G) Twin: We are safe from their combo so long as we can out Fog their counters. However, we do need to be careful of lists packing tons of burn. Melira Pod: We're fine until they combo, then we're hosed. Even Leyline isn't too good here as Qasali Pridemage and Harmonic Sliver will just blow it up. Affinity: A very good matchup. We just have to be careful of Galvanic Blast and Spell Pierce. UWR Control: Not sure, but I think it's unfavorable. They have a lot of burn and counters. UR Storm: Similar to the Scapeshift matchup, a well timed Safe Passage blows them out. G/W Auras (Bogle): Very favorable to us Kiki Pod: Not that favorable. If they're running Melira/Redcap, we're hosed. Even if they're only running Redcap/Kiki, we're still dead after 10-ish turns.
From the Established List: G(r) Tron: We will lose if we don't kill them first. GW Hatebears: Fairly decent , though Thalia slows us down. Wx Death and Taxes: Fairly Decent, though Thalia slows us down. Soul Sisters: We can survive forever, but winning will be hard. U Tron: Mindslaver lock kills us. 8rack: We're hosed. Infect: Favorable for us. RUG Delver: A lot of burn and counters makes for a sad day for us. Living End: Favorable for us. U/R Delver: Lots of burn and counters makes this tough. Ad Nauseam: We will win every time as long as we have a few Safe Passage effects to stop Lightning Storm and to push through Pact of Negation. Junk: Should be fairly favorable. Zoo: Very Favorable so long as we mind the burn. BGx The Rock: This gets tough if they destroy Howling Mine effects and discard our Fog. 4C Gifts: Fairly favorable. BW Tokens: Very favorable. Bitterblossom does our job for us. UB/x Faeries: Difficult because of how many counters and land tap abilities their playing. G Devotion: Very favorable. Cruel Control: Cruel Ultimatum will kill us. Naya Midrange: Favorable, but mind the burn. Assault Loam: Not favorable. Griselbrand Reanimator: Not favorable. Burn: We need a ton of Safe Passage effects and/or a Leyline or we're dead. UW Control: A lot of counters make this hard. UW Midrange: Like UWr, but more counters and less burn. Amulet of Vigor: Favorable as long as they don't kill us with a Hive Mind Pact. Blue Moon: More counter spells and burn, Blood Moon can be bad for us. UWR Twin: Same as UR Twin. Domain Tribal Flames: Watch for burn, Leyline guarantees our win.
I'm not the best at judging matchups, so feel free to correct anything.
While we're favorable against a lot of decks, we're completely hosed against others. There are a lot of decks we can be good against, but it all depends on either how fast we can win or how well we can avoid counters/burn.
And you can use the "everyone runs hate" argument, but then why play magic? Oh this creature sucks bc it dies to removal... oh that deck sucks because it's win con get destroyed by removal... come on... it's a matter of luck to some extent and there's always ways to get around that excuse imho.
I think you missed the point of what I said and I'm not sure if I'm doing a good job of explaining it. The deck NEEDS Howling Mine effects to function, they're necessary. If we don't get them, we will lose 99% of the time. The format has very easy access to artifact and enchantment removal and many decks run some form of it in mainboard. Any time we play a Mine effect, they will gain tempo by simply destroying it, which is different from the "dies to removal" argument since the Howling Mines aren't our win con, they're our bread and butter. Now, this argument wouldn't be a big deal if the deck could win quickly or become hard to interact with, but frankly, we give the opponent tons of extra draws to help them find the pieces they need to kill our draw engine and the time they need to actual do it. I know you said your issue is that the deck doesn't win on the spot, and I agree, but I'd go a step farther and say that the deck isn't viable until that happens.
Long time TurboFog player, there are some issues I'm seeing with this deck. First, I love TurboFog and have been trying to play it in Modern since Modern was introduced as a format. Excuse my terrible deck names, all the lists will be found at the bottom of the post. When I was first getting into Modern, I was playing my Fogdrazi list in Standard. So, the natural thing to do was to try and port it to Modern. What I ended up with was my Farming list. It ended up almost being a direct port with some direct upgrades (DoJ -> ***, Tanglesnap -> Holy Day, etc). It performed okay as the meta was heavily saturated by Tron decks. All I had to do was Beast Within key lands to stall them, then play Memoricide to neuter Emrakul. Once the eldrazi was gone, I could fog their wurms all day. However, the meta shifted and the rise of Jund began. At the time, I had taken a break from Turbo Fog, but decided to give it another go. I don't remember too well my thought process during this time or specific deck lists, but I do remember running up against certain archetypes that were difficult to play against. Burn killed me. Often, I'd lose game 1 unless I found a Leyline fast enough to stabilize. In game 2 I'd mulligan till I had an opening Leyline, but they'd side in enchantment removal (as running Leyline of Sanctity was a fairly common strat) and I'd help them draw it. To deal with this, I dropped a few fogs for couple Safe Passage which I later updated to Riot Control. TylerStegman is very confident in TurboFog's abilities, yet he didn't play against the archetype that singlehandedly killed TurboFog for me. Jund is TurboFog's hard counter. In its heyday, when it dominated the Top8 spots and ran DRS, TurboFog COULD NOT win. You play a Rite of Flourishing, they gain massive tempo by drawing an extra card, playing an extra land, then Abrupt Decaying it so you wasted your turn. Try to Fog their Tarmogoyf? DRS eats it EOT and deals unpreventable damage to you. Manage to deal with DRS? Bolt to the dome. The entire Jund playlist was exactly what we didn't want to play against. For the several months that Jund ruled, I moved onto other decks and let TurboFog fall to the wayside. Since DRS's banning, I haven't tried rebuilding TurboFog. The discussion here is encouraging, but I don't think TurboFog will be the same as it was in early Modern or other formats. The fact that so many decks in the format have access to artifact and enchantment removal early on, and even more so thanks to Theros, means that it is very easy to break us turn 1, which is our favored game. Because Fog only halts creature based attacks, they still have their turn to operate, which means that they have a pretty big window of opportunity to throw a wrench at our plans. However, one "fog" decklist has popped up that addresses this issue and looks very promising. Time Traveler's Mill, Takin' Turns, or my favorite name for it, TurboTime, is TurboFog's spiritual successor. It plays almost identically to TurboFog but is far more consistent and far less interactive. I don't want to derail discussion from this thread, but I think that deck is the next stage of evolution for this archetype. It's already 4-0'd a few MTGO dailies, which is more than TurboFog has done recently. Just worth considering. Anyway, I look forward to seeing what you guys come up with and would love to see TurboFog enter the limelight once again. Again I desire to drink my opponents tears and watch them rage as they lose a 30 minute G1 and are forced to draw a long G2, allowing us to advance in the bracket. I plan to give TylerStegman's list a try as it looks more suited to address the current meta than my old lists.
Also, one thing I noticed. Most lists don't run very many 2 drops (aside from Mines), everything is either 1 or 3 CMC. It might be worth running Chalice of the Void and putting it to 2 to stop a lot of their shenanigans. Stops Remand, Abrupt Decay, Cranial Plating, etc.
It's weak to Rest in Peace, Relic of Progenitus, Tormod's Crypt, and Scavenging Ooze. Not really sure how to deal with the first 3, but we can run plenty of removal for Ooze before he eats anything. Maybe Pithing Needle for the first few? Because of all the 1 drops, we have some early game pressure and can probably get the close to 10ish if they're fetch/shocking themselves.
There isn't a definitive deck yet, so any combination of colors could be good. Sure, Blue adds things like Jace Beleren and Dictate of Kruphix, but green adds things like Rites of Flourishing, tons of Fog effects, and Fog itself.
Assuming the primary method of stalling their play is with Fog (or Holy Day, Darkness, etc.), I'm going to list how favorable our match-ups are.
From the Proven list:
Jund: We could be good here, depends on how much burn they're packing and how much damage they can get in before we can start chaining Fogs.
UWr Midrange: Going up against so much burn and counters, I feel like we're at a disadvantage.
RUG Scapeshift: We could be good here depending on what types of Fog we're running. Things like Dawn Charm, Safe Passage, and Leyline of Sanctity stop them cold. But all it takes for them is one Scapeshift to get through.
Merfolk: We are good as long as we can out Fog their counters.
RU(G) Twin: We are safe from their combo so long as we can out Fog their counters. However, we do need to be careful of lists packing tons of burn.
Melira Pod: We're fine until they combo, then we're hosed. Even Leyline isn't too good here as Qasali Pridemage and Harmonic Sliver will just blow it up.
Affinity: A very good matchup. We just have to be careful of Galvanic Blast and Spell Pierce.
UWR Control: Not sure, but I think it's unfavorable. They have a lot of burn and counters.
UR Storm: Similar to the Scapeshift matchup, a well timed Safe Passage blows them out.
G/W Auras (Bogle): Very favorable to us
Kiki Pod: Not that favorable. If they're running Melira/Redcap, we're hosed. Even if they're only running Redcap/Kiki, we're still dead after 10-ish turns.
From the Established List:
G(r) Tron: We will lose if we don't kill them first.
GW Hatebears: Fairly decent , though Thalia slows us down.
Wx Death and Taxes: Fairly Decent, though Thalia slows us down.
Soul Sisters: We can survive forever, but winning will be hard.
U Tron: Mindslaver lock kills us.
8rack: We're hosed.
Infect: Favorable for us.
RUG Delver: A lot of burn and counters makes for a sad day for us.
Living End: Favorable for us.
U/R Delver: Lots of burn and counters makes this tough.
Ad Nauseam: We will win every time as long as we have a few Safe Passage effects to stop Lightning Storm and to push through Pact of Negation.
Junk: Should be fairly favorable.
Zoo: Very Favorable so long as we mind the burn.
BGx The Rock: This gets tough if they destroy Howling Mine effects and discard our Fog.
4C Gifts: Fairly favorable.
BW Tokens: Very favorable. Bitterblossom does our job for us.
UB/x Faeries: Difficult because of how many counters and land tap abilities their playing.
G Devotion: Very favorable.
Cruel Control: Cruel Ultimatum will kill us.
Naya Midrange: Favorable, but mind the burn.
Assault Loam: Not favorable.
Griselbrand Reanimator: Not favorable.
Burn: We need a ton of Safe Passage effects and/or a Leyline or we're dead.
UW Control: A lot of counters make this hard.
UW Midrange: Like UWr, but more counters and less burn.
Amulet of Vigor: Favorable as long as they don't kill us with a Hive Mind Pact.
Blue Moon: More counter spells and burn, Blood Moon can be bad for us.
UWR Twin: Same as UR Twin.
Domain Tribal Flames: Watch for burn, Leyline guarantees our win.
I'm not the best at judging matchups, so feel free to correct anything.
While we're favorable against a lot of decks, we're completely hosed against others. There are a lot of decks we can be good against, but it all depends on either how fast we can win or how well we can avoid counters/burn.
I think you missed the point of what I said and I'm not sure if I'm doing a good job of explaining it. The deck NEEDS Howling Mine effects to function, they're necessary. If we don't get them, we will lose 99% of the time. The format has very easy access to artifact and enchantment removal and many decks run some form of it in mainboard. Any time we play a Mine effect, they will gain tempo by simply destroying it, which is different from the "dies to removal" argument since the Howling Mines aren't our win con, they're our bread and butter. Now, this argument wouldn't be a big deal if the deck could win quickly or become hard to interact with, but frankly, we give the opponent tons of extra draws to help them find the pieces they need to kill our draw engine and the time they need to actual do it. I know you said your issue is that the deck doesn't win on the spot, and I agree, but I'd go a step farther and say that the deck isn't viable until that happens.
4 Fog
3 Safe Passage
4 Tanglesap
2 Blunt the Assault
1 Gideon Jura
Mines (10)
4 Rites of Flourishing
3 Temple Bell
3 Jace Beleren
2 Beast Within
3 Into the Roil
1 Phyrexian Rebirth
2 Day of Judgment
Other (7)
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 Archive Trap
2 Leyline of Sanctity
Land (21)
1 Celestial Colonnade
2 Forest (246)
2 Glacial Fortress
3 Island (234)
4 Khalni Garden
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Plains (230)
3 Seachrome Coast
1 Sunpetal Grove
4 Fog
4 Holy Day
4 Ethereal Haze
Mines (10)
4 Howling Mine
4 Rites of Flourishing
2 Temple Bell
Disruption (13)
4 Beast Within
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Memoricide
1 Phyrexian Rebirth
2 Wrath of God
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
2 Leyline of Sanctity
Land (22)
4 Forest (246)
7 Plains (230)
4 Sunpetal Grove
3 Swamp (238)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Darkness
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Griselbrand
2 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Nature's Claim
2 Torpor Orb