I'm gonna buy a playset of Leyline otV and add in the new Teferi's tutelage. I think there's a possible mill version now that could be good. This is my current iteration:
1) blast zone is an interesting possibilty. I find the hardest mu is any Tron version, jund, ad naus, and amulet Titan. How do you feel this helps those match ups?
2) Karn isn't bad but obviously I came back to the thread after ML got banned so sadly not as relivant now.
3) I have avoided green for so long personally bc it offers rites and other dogs but not much else imo. Is there anything you've been trying?
4) Personally I want my lands to be available for me, or at least possibly, the turn they come down. Losing the turn in tempo can sometimes bite me but in always tapping down for stuff until I have 3 Mana open for 3 fogs in case some are countered. To have my land enter tapped and bounce a land is kinda painful but I can see how it may be workable with rites bc you float Mana, play SS, bounce land, and replay it untapped.
5) if you want to go combo win, gaining infinite life isn't rly the way to go. I think you need a combo win the just straight wins you the game. Tons of life can win against some mu. But if I'm gonna use spots for a combo kill, I'd want it to outright win the game on the spot.
Yes... Just go mono colored. White is probably your best bet bc it gives you plenty of fogs, creatures is you want to play any, and 2 of the best win cons for us outside of planeswalkers in approach of the second sun and luminarch ascension. Don't listen to the above post... Whoever said that is crazy... Mono white is very doable for cheap. outside of leyline of sanctity it is dirt cheap and pretty good if your meta is creature based. Now if you're trying to play superfriends with 1 playset of a fog effect and you're trying to call that turbofog, then you're not even playing turbofog. You're playing superfriends and that is expensive
So its control. I dont rly have issues at any point in the game. Just problematic cards that i can sb for and the few deck strats like burn that are actually problematic are easily answered in sb but i dont take this to fnm which may be the difference. I dont see the problematic decks as much due to the size of the event. Im not saying the other version isnt more competitive. I know it is but to me it isnt what turbofog is. Its control running a very small and i mean very small fog aspect. This is what i currently have built.... im in the middle of changing my list:
There was more black in the past. I was running black win cons but recently wanted to try AotSS but havent had a chance to yet. I was running underworld dreams and ob nixilis, reignited. I also had a split on dawn charm and batwing brumeLike ive said in the past. Ive run pretty much every color variant. Win con options. Planeswalkers. No planeswalkers. Creatures and no creatures. Ive ran everything except
5 color due to damage id take with the mana base. I nvr run less than 14 fogs and 2 wraths. If i run that low i run more elixirs or shuffle abilities. Ive tried burn versions. Ive tried mill versions. Ive tried winning with discard like megrim and liliana's caress and silence and ive tried the mindslaver lock. I played with and without isochron scepter. I used intimidation bolt at one time as a 4 of fog effect in a list. I tried chandra nalaar with double dmg effects and her ult. I even used chalice of life and/or chalice of death. Ive played this since around 10th ed. My new version is going to try to use fevered visions and spiteful visions with personal sanctuary to deal them massive drawing damage and finish with cerebral vortex.
Now working on a red version with torch of defiance as the win con. I figure we can easily drop enough spells to kill with her ultimate.
Nissa arent all that great and green offers us fogs and big creatures. My issue with green is that unless you stay creatureless, we activate more cards in their deck to use. Greens biggest advantage imo is its creatures. Otherwise, you can do everything green can in white. Gigadrose is good and great for those running blue but unless you win, it does nothing but fog for 1 turn or tap them down. Take your tron example. Good you got em for a turn. Ok... next turn they drop karn and its pretty much over from there. The counterspell e ample would be nice but i try to hold up enough fogs not to worry about there counters but it is very viable at casting something you need to get through. I agree
What did 8 rack have for leyline besides discard? Thats a mu that i aggressively mull for leyline. Jund or the rock are hard bc of those cards specifically. Control can be hard if we cant get going. We have to hold fogs to out do their counters.
That isn't a bad wincon. Personally if I run a creature I tend to go for hexproof and uncounterable. I do not feel we need stony silence against affinity but I've never had an issue just fogging them to death. But balista is an issue. I run main deck leyline but sb i run counters and removal. I also run CoP red for burn.
Tron imo is the worst matchup but my cyborg is almost predominantly aimed at them. Plus I kind of feel like it's on a decline with the rise of humans and other aggro decks. Planeswalkers to me just depend on which ones they're playing. Teferi, jace, karn and liliana are the worst. I spy board for those too. I don't have issues with control but I've also been playing burn long enough to know that you just sand bags your fog when they try to have a counter War. basically we sideboard against Tron burn control and Planeswalkers. Most combos have to target you and thats why i main 4 copies of leyline. It also will stop some random effects from targeting you (back in the day, 8 rack, storm, scapeshift, some planeswalker abilities, etc)
@megatog
Alpine moon would be great. But i dont think i would go into red for 1 card. Against burn, maindeck leylines wins us g1 most of the time outside of eidolon. I will enevitablly mill them before they get me to cast enough spells to die from it. Sb has runed halo or circle of pro red that deal with it, and in CoP red, most of what they do. Helix isnt gonna do much for us against them. It kills off at best 4 creatures (1 creature per copy) and gains us life but if they dont forfit, they will draw all their burn and kill us in the end. In the end, i will run the new sphere over alpine moon bc it deals against tron and storm. Crucible to me seems unnecessary. Field of ruin is a good idea and I may need to look into the idea of changing my Mana base. Im not saying youre wrong or dont do it but i agree with Valtrex that we would need to see a list because all these cards that you are suggesting main deck would have to replace some things and personally I just don't see the deck being turbofog anymore if we run all the suggestions you're making. I think we turned more into a land destruction deck than anything else. I also don't believe we should run main deck answers against Decks that we have a lot less chance of seeing at a big event. If this is a Friday Night Magic type of thing then maybe I could see main deck answers for certain metas but I mostly play in big events where Tron does she play but I'm more likely to see aggro and combo then Tron specifically and I personally don't feel combo or control is as bad as everyone thinks. One last thing as far as our wincons... I think that one of our top three best win conditions is still the mindslaver lock. We can get to 10 mana pretty easily especially if someone is running a version with green and having really only one piece that is Interactive for our opponent out of a two card combo that wins the game is pretty good. Once we drop down that low on fogs, i dont know if we are turbofog anymore. I feel we turn more into u/x or u/x/x control with 7 durdle cards. But i do feel that its do-able and im sure it does have better mu's in some case than traditional turbofog. I dont thibk i will ever drop from my 14-16 range though. I love how my list operates at the moment but i dont rly play as much as i use to. I've gotten to that stage in my magic career that I just enjoy playing Commander more than anything else and would really like to get a cube finished
first off let me say its been ages and the meta is vastly, and i mean vastly different, since i last played so i may use dead archtypes that dont mean anything anymore but the point is still there.
emrakul, without being cheated in, is too slow imo. yes we are in it for the long game but by the time we cast it, in a non green version, theres a good chance the opponent is able to win, in the cases of burn, tron, and any combo deck rly. against decks trying to beat us down, my question would be... why? they will nvr beat us with their gameplan and will mill out naturally or lose to our faster than emrakul win con.
ive never tried cycle lands bc the ones id like to play cipt. theres turns where i want to drop my win con and have a fog up and usually, for me, that involves keeping 1 mana open after playin my wincon. if its a cipt land, i have to wait another turn to do this. if i cycle it, i could hit an untapped land or another turbo piece or fog but personally, i think the main reason i dont play them is because why do we want to or need to? we play anywhere from 10-12 cards that draw us cards. i usually dont need anythong other than that and if youre keeping a hand without a turbo piece, even with cyleing land, youre gonna find yourself in trouble more oftwn than not bc you didnt keep a hand with at least 1 turbo piece.
as far as going mono white... absolutely possible and great to save us life in some instances from fetching and shocking. white is a strong color in its ability to have hate from most angles that we can throw in the sb but i personally think the 2nd or 3rd color options are just better. black has discard, and better costed removal, outside of path, has a few win cons that play with the draw strategy, and has cards to strip decks of their threats like memoricide and what not, plus adds a 1 mana fog. blue has counterspells and better mill options in jaces or other cards in the enchantment side of things. green has more 1 mana fogs and has big beefy tramplers that a lot of times are undercosted, and has ramping spells or ramping turbo pieces that would help cast stuff like eldrazi much quicker. red has burn and more options through which we can cause chaos with the drawing like visions and inquiry. do we need the other colors, maybe not but i feel lists are stronger with an additional color. i think have the versatility against more decks with haveing better instant speed answers makes the deck better.
our bad mu's are burn, tron, and control from my experience. yes theres more out there so theres more arguments out there. mono white against burn: we have all the tools in mono to deal with it. leyline, lifegain, runed halo type effects, or even cop red.
w/x against burn is the same ordeal. not much i can say id fight burn with that isnt white.
tron: mono white gas ways of dealing with tron that slower at reacting. they play karn, ugin, o stone, or even worse, chalice on our dominate cc. you have no great way of stopping it on the stack outside of like mana tithe or lapse of certainty , which we wouldnt play so we would rely on having pithing needle, o ring, etc. this gives them a chance to respond, unless you get needle first and know what you want to call with it. chalice against me and my ALL 1 MANA FOGS list is crushing. having needle sb helps but also having negate or even sadistic sacrament, yes its 3 black but is doable with a good mana base, is a huge step in stoping not only chalice but stoping threats in their deck. etron is obviohsly more creature based so this is different.
control: mono white has less 1 mana fogs without another color. our deck will act like burn against them. they will stockpile counters and try to out counter our fogs. in mono white, theres three 1 mana fogs. green adds 1 more and black does as well. issue is, we loom at all the fogs in white. most lists i see that are mono white run angelsong for the fog and cycling, riot control for lifegain and fog, safepassage for burn protection and fog. issue here is we dilute the cheap fogs for niche better protection fogs and then we weaken ourselves to the counter war. we better ouselves to a chalice on 1 but we lose to control. it also hurts us when we want to cast a wincon and leave a fog up. now instead of saving 1 mana, i have to save 2 or even 3. theres just vetter options and choices with a 2nd color. and mana bases now are getting so good that we could do a 2 or 3 color base without shocks almost. im not saying mono white isnt good enough or good in general, but i like having better options. in mono whote our wrath would probably be *** or doj. with blue, i will nvr step away from supreme verdict. uncounterable wrath that i can easily cast turn 4 with my mana base and having counters in the sb as a catch all to the most problematic cards i come against. black i probably wouldnt leave either due to the black leyline, discard options, and with wincons such as underworld dreams, megrim, or planeswalkers. theres also my fav fog against decks that go wide or make infinite creatues in batwing brume.
theres always a way to win in mono but my personal feelings are that we have better options in splashing. maybe not 3 colors like i am but at least 2. id love to hear more from you on the topic and what you think.
so i got my set of approaches in the mail. plan on playing 3 for now. i strongly feel this is our best wincon atm but only testing will prove it. the only issue i have with it is its mana cost meaning that we need 8 mana minimally to cast it and fog unless the 7 life is enough to get us out of lethal combat damage
2 Hallow Fountain
3 Glacial Fortress
1 Watery Grave
2 Drowned Catacomb
1 Godless Shrine
2 Isolated Chapel
3 Plains
3 Swamp
2 Island
4 Howling Mine
4 Temple Bell
2 Dictate of Kruphix
4 Darkness
4 Holy Day
4 Ethereal Haze
4 Dawn Charm
2 Supreme Verdict
4 Teferi's Tutelage
2 Elixir of Immortality
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Rest in Peace
1 Detention Sphere
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Damping Sphere
2 Dovin's Veto
1 Lost Legacy
1 Memoricide
1 Solemn Offering
2) Karn isn't bad but obviously I came back to the thread after ML got banned so sadly not as relivant now.
3) I have avoided green for so long personally bc it offers rites and other dogs but not much else imo. Is there anything you've been trying?
4) Personally I want my lands to be available for me, or at least possibly, the turn they come down. Losing the turn in tempo can sometimes bite me but in always tapping down for stuff until I have 3 Mana open for 3 fogs in case some are countered. To have my land enter tapped and bounce a land is kinda painful but I can see how it may be workable with rites bc you float Mana, play SS, bounce land, and replay it untapped.
5) if you want to go combo win, gaining infinite life isn't rly the way to go. I think you need a combo win the just straight wins you the game. Tons of life can win against some mu. But if I'm gonna use spots for a combo kill, I'd want it to outright win the game on the spot.
2 hallowed fountain
3 glacial fortress
1 watery grave
2 drowned catacomb
1 godless shrine
2 isloated chapel
3 swamp
3 plains
2 island
4 temple bell
3 dictate of kruphix
4 ethereal haze
4 holy day
4 dawn charm
4 darkness
2 supreme verdict
4 leyline of sanctity
2 elixir of immortality
3 approach of the second sun
3 negate
3 damping sphere
2 solemn offering
2 pithing needle
2 runed halo
2 circle of protection: red
1 detention sphere
There was more black in the past. I was running black win cons but recently wanted to try AotSS but havent had a chance to yet. I was running underworld dreams and ob nixilis, reignited. I also had a split on dawn charm and batwing brumeLike ive said in the past. Ive run pretty much every color variant. Win con options. Planeswalkers. No planeswalkers. Creatures and no creatures. Ive ran everything except
5 color due to damage id take with the mana base. I nvr run less than 14 fogs and 2 wraths. If i run that low i run more elixirs or shuffle abilities. Ive tried burn versions. Ive tried mill versions. Ive tried winning with discard like megrim and liliana's caress and silence and ive tried the mindslaver lock. I played with and without isochron scepter. I used intimidation bolt at one time as a 4 of fog effect in a list. I tried chandra nalaar with double dmg effects and her ult. I even used chalice of life and/or chalice of death. Ive played this since around 10th ed. My new version is going to try to use fevered visions and spiteful visions with personal sanctuary to deal them massive drawing damage and finish with cerebral vortex.
Now working on a red version with torch of defiance as the win con. I figure we can easily drop enough spells to kill with her ultimate.
@megatog
Alpine moon would be great. But i dont think i would go into red for 1 card. Against burn, maindeck leylines wins us g1 most of the time outside of eidolon. I will enevitablly mill them before they get me to cast enough spells to die from it. Sb has runed halo or circle of pro red that deal with it, and in CoP red, most of what they do. Helix isnt gonna do much for us against them. It kills off at best 4 creatures (1 creature per copy) and gains us life but if they dont forfit, they will draw all their burn and kill us in the end. In the end, i will run the new sphere over alpine moon bc it deals against tron and storm. Crucible to me seems unnecessary. Field of ruin is a good idea and I may need to look into the idea of changing my Mana base. Im not saying youre wrong or dont do it but i agree with Valtrex that we would need to see a list because all these cards that you are suggesting main deck would have to replace some things and personally I just don't see the deck being turbofog anymore if we run all the suggestions you're making. I think we turned more into a land destruction deck than anything else. I also don't believe we should run main deck answers against Decks that we have a lot less chance of seeing at a big event. If this is a Friday Night Magic type of thing then maybe I could see main deck answers for certain metas but I mostly play in big events where Tron does she play but I'm more likely to see aggro and combo then Tron specifically and I personally don't feel combo or control is as bad as everyone thinks. One last thing as far as our wincons... I think that one of our top three best win conditions is still the mindslaver lock. We can get to 10 mana pretty easily especially if someone is running a version with green and having really only one piece that is Interactive for our opponent out of a two card combo that wins the game is pretty good. Once we drop down that low on fogs, i dont know if we are turbofog anymore. I feel we turn more into u/x or u/x/x control with 7 durdle cards. But i do feel that its do-able and im sure it does have better mu's in some case than traditional turbofog. I dont thibk i will ever drop from my 14-16 range though. I love how my list operates at the moment but i dont rly play as much as i use to. I've gotten to that stage in my magic career that I just enjoy playing Commander more than anything else and would really like to get a cube finished
emrakul, without being cheated in, is too slow imo. yes we are in it for the long game but by the time we cast it, in a non green version, theres a good chance the opponent is able to win, in the cases of burn, tron, and any combo deck rly. against decks trying to beat us down, my question would be... why? they will nvr beat us with their gameplan and will mill out naturally or lose to our faster than emrakul win con.
ive never tried cycle lands bc the ones id like to play cipt. theres turns where i want to drop my win con and have a fog up and usually, for me, that involves keeping 1 mana open after playin my wincon. if its a cipt land, i have to wait another turn to do this. if i cycle it, i could hit an untapped land or another turbo piece or fog but personally, i think the main reason i dont play them is because why do we want to or need to? we play anywhere from 10-12 cards that draw us cards. i usually dont need anythong other than that and if youre keeping a hand without a turbo piece, even with cyleing land, youre gonna find yourself in trouble more oftwn than not bc you didnt keep a hand with at least 1 turbo piece.
as far as going mono white... absolutely possible and great to save us life in some instances from fetching and shocking. white is a strong color in its ability to have hate from most angles that we can throw in the sb but i personally think the 2nd or 3rd color options are just better. black has discard, and better costed removal, outside of path, has a few win cons that play with the draw strategy, and has cards to strip decks of their threats like memoricide and what not, plus adds a 1 mana fog. blue has counterspells and better mill options in jaces or other cards in the enchantment side of things. green has more 1 mana fogs and has big beefy tramplers that a lot of times are undercosted, and has ramping spells or ramping turbo pieces that would help cast stuff like eldrazi much quicker. red has burn and more options through which we can cause chaos with the drawing like visions and inquiry. do we need the other colors, maybe not but i feel lists are stronger with an additional color. i think have the versatility against more decks with haveing better instant speed answers makes the deck better.
our bad mu's are burn, tron, and control from my experience. yes theres more out there so theres more arguments out there. mono white against burn: we have all the tools in mono to deal with it. leyline, lifegain, runed halo type effects, or even cop red.
w/x against burn is the same ordeal. not much i can say id fight burn with that isnt white.
tron: mono white gas ways of dealing with tron that slower at reacting. they play karn, ugin, o stone, or even worse, chalice on our dominate cc. you have no great way of stopping it on the stack outside of like mana tithe or lapse of certainty , which we wouldnt play so we would rely on having pithing needle, o ring, etc. this gives them a chance to respond, unless you get needle first and know what you want to call with it. chalice against me and my ALL 1 MANA FOGS list is crushing. having needle sb helps but also having negate or even sadistic sacrament, yes its 3 black but is doable with a good mana base, is a huge step in stoping not only chalice but stoping threats in their deck. etron is obviohsly more creature based so this is different.
control: mono white has less 1 mana fogs without another color. our deck will act like burn against them. they will stockpile counters and try to out counter our fogs. in mono white, theres three 1 mana fogs. green adds 1 more and black does as well. issue is, we loom at all the fogs in white. most lists i see that are mono white run angelsong for the fog and cycling, riot control for lifegain and fog, safepassage for burn protection and fog. issue here is we dilute the cheap fogs for niche better protection fogs and then we weaken ourselves to the counter war. we better ouselves to a chalice on 1 but we lose to control. it also hurts us when we want to cast a wincon and leave a fog up. now instead of saving 1 mana, i have to save 2 or even 3. theres just vetter options and choices with a 2nd color. and mana bases now are getting so good that we could do a 2 or 3 color base without shocks almost. im not saying mono white isnt good enough or good in general, but i like having better options. in mono whote our wrath would probably be *** or doj. with blue, i will nvr step away from supreme verdict. uncounterable wrath that i can easily cast turn 4 with my mana base and having counters in the sb as a catch all to the most problematic cards i come against. black i probably wouldnt leave either due to the black leyline, discard options, and with wincons such as underworld dreams, megrim, or planeswalkers. theres also my fav fog against decks that go wide or make infinite creatues in batwing brume.
theres always a way to win in mono but my personal feelings are that we have better options in splashing. maybe not 3 colors like i am but at least 2. id love to hear more from you on the topic and what you think.
Tyler