I wouldn't rune Skewer the Critics as you NEED your opponent to take damage. Yes, we frequently get damage in but turn one, I rather suspend a Rift Bolt than wait around one or two turns for me to get a Goblin Guide or bolt to get the Spectacle cost off on Skewer. Light Up The Stage is a fun card, but I don't see us playing it honestly. I rather have Faithless Looting or Wheel of Fortune instead for draw power.
Faithless looting is not draw and Wheel is not an option in Legacy so those comparisons fall flat to me. You should not be drawing enough dead or situational cards in this list for faithless to be relevant any portion of the time.
If you are running a burn deck that cannot activate Light up the Stage on turn 3 then you have likely lost already. Are you saying you would sooner suspend a rift bolt turn one than play a goblin guide, because outside of very specific circumstance that seems to me to be 100% the wrong play.
Immolation Shaman is almost a strictly worse Harsh Mentor in this list, so no it will not and should not see play.
I cannot believe I am asking this but is Light up the Stage worth playing? I wouldn't even ask except I just reread the damn thing and the play from exile clause is until the end of the NEXT turn.
I have had a lot of success running a singleton Dangerous Wager in my 60. Burn goes through its hand so fast that the discard clause on that is almost irrelevant, so my ideal turn 3 usually has me casting fireblast, desperate wager, and then ideally a bolt. I don't run more than one because it is a card that is often not online until turn 3 and I never want to see more than one of them, but when it comes up I am almost always happy with it.
Light up the stage changes my math a lot. It is 1 mana cheaper, it's ideal turn is 2, it does not have the discard clause, it changes the play order where you want to sorcery speed bolt your opponent, and it is a lot better in multiple than wager. I think your ideal turn with the card will be T1 play a dude, T2 Lavaspike and play this, T3 play a land from the exiled cards, play 3 bolts from hand and/or Exile and maybe a fireblast. I also think because you are seeing more of your deck you can maybe get greedy on land too, nothing extreme but maybe 1 less all things considered.
The question really becomes is having draw in the list worth it at all. I am fully aware the deck can finish out games without ever needing more than its natural cards, but having draw in the list does help us get through control matches, incidental life gain, and recover from mulligans. I think this card may be good enough, but im not sure. Here is what I am pondering:
I'm looking at that card too....
I'm not sure what I'd take out yet.
Personally I dont mind rift bolts delay..the suspend turn often turns into a defensive play, in that an opponent holds off casting a creature for a turn because they know it's going to get bolted.
The downside to this new card in my mind, is that it would be a totally dead bolt on turn 1.
I'm sure I'll get some, I'm not sure they'll make it into my deck on a permanent basis.
It may be that this winds up being a 1of copy in the deck. Based on when we feel we hit the point of diminishing returns on bolts we may not want more bolts in quantity, but may need marginal variety for whatever reason. I mean we are already sorta at the point where the deck just has a fixed core of 12 creatures and like 24ish spells, there is not much wiggle room.
It is a card you maybe do not want in your opening grip in multiple either, so running fewer than 4 may be optimal.
One of the arguments I had over this card was that if they let you draw 3 one of the upsides is that you can draw into Fireblast so maybe you can get the most of your mana that way, but if that's the case you will not be Jumpstarting the card, in which case Browbeat would have done the same or maybe even have been better since it threatens one more life on it's own.
I run a singleton draw card in my 75, Dangerous Wager. Part of the reason it works out is because I can draw into Fireblast sometimes, but it is only because it costs 2 mana that I can justify playing it since sometimes It'll draw me bolt and fireblast on 3 which is often game, at least in that scenario.
I had a really interesting conversation recently about Risk Factor, I think solely because it is the first real punisher card in a long time that is seeing play in maybe forever. Basically a pal of mine contends it is viable for burn in legacy because it covers off on one weakness that browbeat had, which is consistency.
It is almost always going to be Draw 3 for 3 when you play it, and if your opponent is in a position to take 4 you are very likely in a very bad spot that game anyway. The consistency piece of it comes into play when you consider that one of those cards you will draw will be another Risk factor because of the Jump-start, which means that it will turn a "useless land" into action. Note that to me, useless land is really only applicable if you draw 2 of them, since you almost certainly want access to more mana if you are in a position to be drawing cards. Obviously this card feels more relevant against pure control/permission decks because you can try to race them on cards, but I don't feel as if permission on that level really exists to any extent in the format, plus Exquisite Firecraft plays a bit of that role already.
So my counter argument to this argument was that if burn draws 3 cards and cannot close the deal the turn after, what the hell are 3 more going to really do after you just spent 2 full turns spending all your mana? Red has card draw options it already mostly does not use, and drawing more cards has always been a secondary consideration to the Damage/mana cost/card efficiency balance the deck tries to achieve. This turned into this big discussion about card draw options for burn.
Anyway, without going into the whole thing, my gut feeling is that this card still just simply does not do enough for it's mana cost, even in matchups where it is well positioned. If it cost 2 mana I think it could have been close because you would be able to play other spells on other turns and get any CA from it early enough for it to be relevant. I am a person who fully believes punisher cards "CAN" be good if they are over the top enough, and Vexing Devil has seen play, but ultimately I just do no think this card can have any legs in a format with so many other options.
My guide/rules of thumb for 1 land openers is as follows:
On the play - Your hand basically has to be in the position where if you draw your second land you will win, and the land in hand needs to be a basic mountain instead of a fetch or other non basic. In a game where every top deck will matter you don't want to thin your already thin deck even more of the cards you actually need. Its a 2% drop off in a 20 land deck, which may not seem like a lot but it means one in every 50 games will be better off without fetching, which is a non trivial number to a serious player. Life totals do tend to matter more in those matches as well.
It is still risky and even more so post sideboard. Basically has to have a goblin guide, some number of bolts, and maybe even more creatures that are not EotGR since you may not be able to play your own if you are mana strapped. Multiple Fireblasts, Searing blaze, or PoP against an unknown opponent means mulligan.
On the Draw - Much more inclined to keep a one lander on the draw, as you will have 2 draws to see another land. You still need a hand that can win with 2 lands, which means multiple Fireblasts are a no keep (I mean, it usually is) but I feel much more lenient about Searing Blaze since it has a good chance of seeing another land and being relevant on your turn 2.
The odds of a creature without haste making the list now days is pretty slim, and for good reason.
Yes if he resolves he will likely either remove a land from the top of your deck or start to ping your opponent. More likely than that though is that your opponent will kill it and you spent 3 mana on nothing instead of burning their face off. At two mana we are looking at a mostly broken red dark confidant, at 3 it is probably better suited for a U/R control list.
It likely belongs in that deck right next to reckless waif, another card that honestly hits just shy of being worth it. Thought to be truthful I could imaging a Mono Red werewolf aggro burn deck being a thing if they make a tribal card that plays nice specifically with the flip creatures. The loss of Swiftspear is something that would really have to be made up but in a longer game these 2 could easily outclass goblin guide with his downside.
Probably not burn though, though there is another 1 drop flip card coming called Skin Invasion that sounds more like a sorcery than a creature, so who knows...
Can someone please reenforce my beliefs that this is just shy of playable.
To me the challenge is not the card itself. In a void this thing is actually quite a decent on turn 1 play. It's more so that it does not stack favorably with swiftspear and Swiffty is a better partner with Goblin Guide. That plus I am not sure how many one drop creatures are the correct amount at this point, sometimes i feel like we want 12 so long as they don't lose too much power later on to maximize our turns one and two.
Surgical Extraction is all but strictly worse than Faerie against reanimator. Besides costing 2 life, which I realize is not all that relevant, it is counter-able and typically your target is only a one of in a list. With Faerie you can zap 2 targets if they exist in the yard which is relevant against non targeted reanimation like exhume
If you are really have issues with lands I would think a proactive response would be a better one. Ankh of Mishra could be a good side, just because it is better in multiple and not a dead card outside of the opening hand. Since lands does not rely on casting so many spells you could probably side out ediolon for them. Your sulfuric vortexes should be a priority play against lands too if you suspect zuran orb will hit.
Personally I imagine if I am going to see a lands deck in a big event, chances are I am also going to run into reanimator as well, in which case I would far rather have the Faerie in my list than not. How many events are you playing in where lands is the match up you are hitting at an amount equal to or greater than dredge and reanimator?
Honestly not sure because I see lands so infrequently even at big events I've never really had the chance to test burn against it. I would be shocked to find that deck making up a bigger portion of most any real meta than something like dredge or reanimator, and as such would much rather take the option that had higher proven utility against the more prominent deck.
I would have to imagine that the lands match up has so many one ofs that it would not be all that hard to nuke what you need to with the faerie.
Faerie Macabre is the best I think. The surprise factor the card presents can easily gain you more than a turn like some of the other options. I have beat dredge and reanimator both with Macabre because it made my opponent waste a reanimation spell or what have you. It is usually a 2-1 in those match ups plus a tempo swing. It has similar value against snapcaster.
Other pros the card provides is that it dodges turn 1 duress where crypt does not and is always "castable" where as Lotv is never castable and spheres can potentially be locked out by stax effects (though probably not relevant.)
May have to warp the build a bit to up the instant count, but for 1 card and 3 mana you get 6 damage out of 2 bolts and 3 swiftspear triggers.
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Faithless looting is not draw and Wheel is not an option in Legacy so those comparisons fall flat to me. You should not be drawing enough dead or situational cards in this list for faithless to be relevant any portion of the time.
If you are running a burn deck that cannot activate Light up the Stage on turn 3 then you have likely lost already. Are you saying you would sooner suspend a rift bolt turn one than play a goblin guide, because outside of very specific circumstance that seems to me to be 100% the wrong play.
Immolation Shaman is almost a strictly worse Harsh Mentor in this list, so no it will not and should not see play.
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I have had a lot of success running a singleton Dangerous Wager in my 60. Burn goes through its hand so fast that the discard clause on that is almost irrelevant, so my ideal turn 3 usually has me casting fireblast, desperate wager, and then ideally a bolt. I don't run more than one because it is a card that is often not online until turn 3 and I never want to see more than one of them, but when it comes up I am almost always happy with it.
Light up the stage changes my math a lot. It is 1 mana cheaper, it's ideal turn is 2, it does not have the discard clause, it changes the play order where you want to sorcery speed bolt your opponent, and it is a lot better in multiple than wager. I think your ideal turn with the card will be T1 play a dude, T2 Lavaspike and play this, T3 play a land from the exiled cards, play 3 bolts from hand and/or Exile and maybe a fireblast. I also think because you are seeing more of your deck you can maybe get greedy on land too, nothing extreme but maybe 1 less all things considered.
The question really becomes is having draw in the list worth it at all. I am fully aware the deck can finish out games without ever needing more than its natural cards, but having draw in the list does help us get through control matches, incidental life gain, and recover from mulligans. I think this card may be good enough, but im not sure. Here is what I am pondering:
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava spike
4 Fireblast
4 Light up the stage
2 searing blaze
2 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Skewer the Critics
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
19 Mountain
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It may be that this winds up being a 1of copy in the deck. Based on when we feel we hit the point of diminishing returns on bolts we may not want more bolts in quantity, but may need marginal variety for whatever reason. I mean we are already sorta at the point where the deck just has a fixed core of 12 creatures and like 24ish spells, there is not much wiggle room.
It is a card you maybe do not want in your opening grip in multiple either, so running fewer than 4 may be optimal.
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I wonder with the number of 3 mana bolts we have at this point what does this even replace, if anything?
I suspect it may be better than rift bolt but because it has a 3CMC it helps dodge Cotv so it may be better than Lavaspike in some matches.
It may also be that since we have so many 1 mana bolts now it may just be better than running dorks in the amounts we are.
Exciting possibilities.
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I run a singleton draw card in my 75, Dangerous Wager. Part of the reason it works out is because I can draw into Fireblast sometimes, but it is only because it costs 2 mana that I can justify playing it since sometimes It'll draw me bolt and fireblast on 3 which is often game, at least in that scenario.
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It is almost always going to be Draw 3 for 3 when you play it, and if your opponent is in a position to take 4 you are very likely in a very bad spot that game anyway. The consistency piece of it comes into play when you consider that one of those cards you will draw will be another Risk factor because of the Jump-start, which means that it will turn a "useless land" into action. Note that to me, useless land is really only applicable if you draw 2 of them, since you almost certainly want access to more mana if you are in a position to be drawing cards. Obviously this card feels more relevant against pure control/permission decks because you can try to race them on cards, but I don't feel as if permission on that level really exists to any extent in the format, plus Exquisite Firecraft plays a bit of that role already.
So my counter argument to this argument was that if burn draws 3 cards and cannot close the deal the turn after, what the hell are 3 more going to really do after you just spent 2 full turns spending all your mana? Red has card draw options it already mostly does not use, and drawing more cards has always been a secondary consideration to the Damage/mana cost/card efficiency balance the deck tries to achieve. This turned into this big discussion about card draw options for burn.
Anyway, without going into the whole thing, my gut feeling is that this card still just simply does not do enough for it's mana cost, even in matchups where it is well positioned. If it cost 2 mana I think it could have been close because you would be able to play other spells on other turns and get any CA from it early enough for it to be relevant. I am a person who fully believes punisher cards "CAN" be good if they are over the top enough, and Vexing Devil has seen play, but ultimately I just do no think this card can have any legs in a format with so many other options.
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On the play - Your hand basically has to be in the position where if you draw your second land you will win, and the land in hand needs to be a basic mountain instead of a fetch or other non basic. In a game where every top deck will matter you don't want to thin your already thin deck even more of the cards you actually need. Its a 2% drop off in a 20 land deck, which may not seem like a lot but it means one in every 50 games will be better off without fetching, which is a non trivial number to a serious player. Life totals do tend to matter more in those matches as well.
It is still risky and even more so post sideboard. Basically has to have a goblin guide, some number of bolts, and maybe even more creatures that are not EotGR since you may not be able to play your own if you are mana strapped. Multiple Fireblasts, Searing blaze, or PoP against an unknown opponent means mulligan.
On the Draw - Much more inclined to keep a one lander on the draw, as you will have 2 draws to see another land. You still need a hand that can win with 2 lands, which means multiple Fireblasts are a no keep (I mean, it usually is) but I feel much more lenient about Searing Blaze since it has a good chance of seeing another land and being relevant on your turn 2.
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Yes if he resolves he will likely either remove a land from the top of your deck or start to ping your opponent. More likely than that though is that your opponent will kill it and you spent 3 mana on nothing instead of burning their face off. At two mana we are looking at a mostly broken red dark confidant, at 3 it is probably better suited for a U/R control list.
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Probably not burn though, though there is another 1 drop flip card coming called Skin Invasion that sounds more like a sorcery than a creature, so who knows...
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To me the challenge is not the card itself. In a void this thing is actually quite a decent on turn 1 play. It's more so that it does not stack favorably with swiftspear and Swiffty is a better partner with Goblin Guide. That plus I am not sure how many one drop creatures are the correct amount at this point, sometimes i feel like we want 12 so long as they don't lose too much power later on to maximize our turns one and two.
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Personally I imagine if I am going to see a lands deck in a big event, chances are I am also going to run into reanimator as well, in which case I would far rather have the Faerie in my list than not. How many events are you playing in where lands is the match up you are hitting at an amount equal to or greater than dredge and reanimator?
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Honestly not sure because I see lands so infrequently even at big events I've never really had the chance to test burn against it. I would be shocked to find that deck making up a bigger portion of most any real meta than something like dredge or reanimator, and as such would much rather take the option that had higher proven utility against the more prominent deck.
I would have to imagine that the lands match up has so many one ofs that it would not be all that hard to nuke what you need to with the faerie.
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Other pros the card provides is that it dodges turn 1 duress where crypt does not and is always "castable" where as Lotv is never castable and spheres can potentially be locked out by stax effects (though probably not relevant.)
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