I know you are half-joking with the Grizzly Bears argument, being only a 2/2 and all, but I think creature P/T scale either doesn't truly exist or is logarithmic or something. Look at Uril, the Miststalker and tell me 2 grizzly bears and 1 eager cadet could kill that thing, if it existed in real life? I think P/T is scaled negatively, so a 2/2 is more than twice as strong as a 1/1.
It's just part of the hypothetical. With rudimentary weapons, and no fear (as per the hypothetical) it would take 1-3 humans almost definitely. The question was to figure out how many men it would take without the weapons. It's a more interesting question, because yes, humans would always use tools and weapons if this situation happened in real life.
Please stop attacking the initial question. Yes it is ridiculous. Yes it isn't possible or relevant in any way. Yes it has no bearing on real life. That's precisely why it's a hypothetical for the water cooler talk, it's all in good fun. If you think the question is dumb then don't bother replying.
I still can't believe how many people are overrating the killing power of a bear. Youtube bear kills and you can see that while they are definitely big and deadly, they aren't competent combatants by any stretch. They mostly kill by tackling and then biting the neck or body and just kind of mauling them or just holding the bite until they die. They wouldn't be able to handle multiple targets at once with much efficiency at all.
That sucks FTMB.. I was hoping for a real response after this long. Oh well. About the tool/natural weapon argument, keep in mind that this is strictly a hypothetical situation. One of humans' greatest strength is their intellect and cunning, but they still have arms and muscles that can be used to fight with. Martial Arts is a perfect example of this.
No, I really don't think it is fair to say a human's "natural" weaponry include makeshift tools and weapons. Keep in mind, the humans already have a tremendous advantage in the scenario because of their intellect. They can communicate, strategize, coordinate attacks, bait, etc. There are many tactics that utilize intellect without weapons.
There's a BIG difference between killing something human weight and killing something that's over 1000 pounds. Also, grizzly bears? Significantly more vicious.
Classic example of skewing numbers. Male bears can weigh over 1000 lbs, but typically weigh 400-770 lbs. This is a significant difference. Remember, the scenario is in the most average way possible, that is, the bear definitely weighs 400-770 lbs. because it is a typical bear, at least for this thought experiment.
Thanks FTMB. I've emailed a few 'bear experts' that I found on google, but none responded. I think your approach will more likely yield results. Keep us posted.
About the argument itself, a lot of what you guys are saying I've heard from my friends. I'm sticking to my guns though, just because I can't imagine a beast the size of a bear being able to take 25 humans. Have a few guys decoy, have a guy castrate it, have a guy gouge its eyes out, have a guy punch it in the nose. This requires 5 men, so I toss on a few extra just in case.
The results of this poll seem to be a disturbing indictment about the intelligence of MTGS users. People seriously think less than 25 humans could take out a bear? This isn't Winnie the Pooh, it's an angry grizzly that can kill you with one lazy swipe of its paw. I've been reflecting on this a lot since my earlier post and think that literally unarmed humans could never take a bear out unless there was just an endless stream of them and eventually the bear collapsed from exhaustion after killing about 200 of them.
This is a debate my friends and I had recently. We argue over how many basically nude, unarmed men it takes to kill a fully grown male grizzly bear in an infinitely open arena.
I say 3-6, because humans are beasts.
The most agreed upon number was 10-15, but that seems like too much for me.
2 of my friends even said 30+, which is blatantly outrageous.
So, what is your opinion on the matter? How many people, and how would they kill it? Bear experts, if you play magic and are on here, don't hesitate to answer.
EDIT: The Humans are completely average in every way. around 5' 11" or 6', 180 lbs, and are just completely average at every aspect of life. Also, there is no fear. Assume the humans have no fear of the bear, and the bear has no fear of the humans. This is just about the physical brawl.
Sig by XenoNinja of Heroes of the Plane Studios
Sig by XenoNinja of Heroes of the Plane Studios
I still can't believe how many people are overrating the killing power of a bear. Youtube bear kills and you can see that while they are definitely big and deadly, they aren't competent combatants by any stretch. They mostly kill by tackling and then biting the neck or body and just kind of mauling them or just holding the bite until they die. They wouldn't be able to handle multiple targets at once with much efficiency at all.
Sig by XenoNinja of Heroes of the Plane Studios
No, I really don't think it is fair to say a human's "natural" weaponry include makeshift tools and weapons. Keep in mind, the humans already have a tremendous advantage in the scenario because of their intellect. They can communicate, strategize, coordinate attacks, bait, etc. There are many tactics that utilize intellect without weapons.
Sig by XenoNinja of Heroes of the Plane Studios
Agreed. Just wanted to point out that while obviously this grizzly is monstrous, it's not as monstrous as some might think.
Sig by XenoNinja of Heroes of the Plane Studios
Classic example of skewing numbers. Male bears can weigh over 1000 lbs, but typically weigh 400-770 lbs. This is a significant difference. Remember, the scenario is in the most average way possible, that is, the bear definitely weighs 400-770 lbs. because it is a typical bear, at least for this thought experiment.
Sig by XenoNinja of Heroes of the Plane Studios
About the argument itself, a lot of what you guys are saying I've heard from my friends. I'm sticking to my guns though, just because I can't imagine a beast the size of a bear being able to take 25 humans. Have a few guys decoy, have a guy castrate it, have a guy gouge its eyes out, have a guy punch it in the nose. This requires 5 men, so I toss on a few extra just in case.
Sig by XenoNinja of Heroes of the Plane Studios
You seem to underestimate the power of humans and overestimate the power of bears. Watch any videos of bears killing animals. Yes, they are huge, strong, and deadly. 200? No way. 25 is an obscene amount in my book. If one man and a stick can kill a black bear: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1075830/Bring-sweetie-Man-kills-bear-stick-hes-got-scars-prove-it.html
Then 6-10 can kill a grizzly with nothing.
Sig by XenoNinja of Heroes of the Plane Studios
I say 3-6, because humans are beasts.
The most agreed upon number was 10-15, but that seems like too much for me.
2 of my friends even said 30+, which is blatantly outrageous.
So, what is your opinion on the matter? How many people, and how would they kill it? Bear experts, if you play magic and are on here, don't hesitate to answer.
EDIT: The Humans are completely average in every way. around 5' 11" or 6', 180 lbs, and are just completely average at every aspect of life. Also, there is no fear. Assume the humans have no fear of the bear, and the bear has no fear of the humans. This is just about the physical brawl.
Sig by XenoNinja of Heroes of the Plane Studios