I'm going to comment on something completely different here because Zionite's post made me realize something.
We need to bring basics back.
Put aside complexity a moment, what are the two issues we are really facing right now?
1. Not enough bodies.
2. Toxicity is increasing.
Basics are a great stepping stone for folks to jump into this community. Right now, they look at all these games and in many cases get intimidated. This leads to less bodies. But if we have basics, then they put their foot in the door, we set a hook to keep them coming back, and we have more bodies.
Plus, basics tend to be less serious, which might help vent some toxicity out of the community.
League games? Screw 'em. It was a nice idea that ended up being more trouble than it's worth. I think it fulfills a need that just isn't there. Making them any complexity would help a bit but why have the league in the first place? What is gained?
Complex games in general? Sure. But only with the proper stepping stones.
We have met the enemy killing mafia on this site, and it is us.
It's stupid to punish for the sake of punishment, and I don't see how what kpaca is suggesting with Proph is anything other than that.
What happened to the Gutter was also stupid, but I don't see why it should be taken out on Proph.
I do agree for the need of a heavier hand with Meg than is currently being given, because he seems like he'd do this again at the drop of a hat. Proph doesn't, so he shouldn't have any harsher of a punishment.
I'd also make the case that having seen first-hand how such a thing could go wrong, Proph is likely to be a better mod than kpaca thinks; he won't bow to that sort of pressure after seeing consequences.
I'm a bit late to the party here but I want to weigh in anyway.
To begin: I don't like the idea of punishment if not required. The idea behind punishment is avoiding future occurrences of a problem, but if the problem already won't recur, what's the point of the punishment? Therefore, I believe that punishment is required only in cases where recurrence is likely.
To that end, I don't like the idea of punishing Proph. There's no way he'll ever do this again, period. It sounds like the current idea is to just slap him on the wrist, which is okay; I would recommend taking him off probation the very moment he concludes his next full game.
Chemtrails: Him having not weighed in, it's hard to judge whether or not he'd do something that breaks the spirit of mafia again. The currently proposed solution pretty elegantly takes care of that; it slaps his wrist for a bit longer until we can be more certain.
And then, we come to Megiddo. His attitude shows that he is likely to commit offenses against the spirit of the game; while I'm a big proponent of not taking games too seriously, Meg has shown that he does not want to be serious enough even to respect the basic rules that are needed for mafia to function. At present, I do not have confidence that any game of mafia Meg might play in would end well.
I believe the current punishment plan of long probation would not fully prevent Meg from doing something stupid again. Even though he's taking a break, I would support a temporary blacklist to back it up (say 2-3 months, nothing too long); slaps on the wrist for Proph and Chemtrails make sense, but I think Meg needs to be shown that this is not something that can be allowed, because right now he 100% does not believe it.
I want to play with the Megiddo who used to play mafia, very badly. That Megiddo is easily in my top 3 favorite players. The Megiddo I've been playing with lately is not him.
There have been an influx of toxic posts and anger flares and civility issues as of late. I think it would be fair to say that the next time something like this comes up, the person responsible will be Blacklisted for a full cycle of games (3 Minis, a Normal, a Specialty, and possibly an FTQ), no questions asked, regardless of who they are or what they have or have not done before.
This doesn't solve the problem. I do not support it. Not only because of what was decided with the mafia subforum not punishing flaming, but also because it doesn't take into account the likelihood of a player doing stupid things again.
We should also probably have the next CCM NOT use hydras, as very few people actually seem to enjoy it.
Now THIS I 100% agree with. More accountability, less confusion.
1. They fire really quick and therefore can get people into games quickly, therefore making it possible to increase the population of the subforum.
2. All the reasons Iso said.
3. They sound fun as heck.
Micros are inherently different from basics in that you need less than half as many players, so you don't have things like it taking a month for a rolling signup to come around; this way, it's more likely to be a week until firing.
Just make sure to have a strict deadline (say, 1 week per Day) and I think it would be a great idea.
GIven that we just filled a 24 player game easily, should we relax the maximum of 18?
ABSOLUTELY NOT.
There was a long time where 24 player game after 24 player game would almost never get off the ground. Even now, many signups linger for far fewer players.
Seppel is one of the best mods period, and one of the only people who can pull 24 players into a game right now, and only then with an interesting setup (which Seppel always has, that's why he's one of the best mods period).
On top of that, 24 player games can get bogged down heavily until you weed out a lot of the early players. There needs to be a lot of determination to be interested in the game from a lot of players, otherwise you end up with only a few interested players and a lot of lurkers until a lot of dudes die. And if people lurk, they get replaced, and once you have too many replacements you've used up the entire playerbase on a single game.
Hopefully that won't be a problem with FF2, but 24 player games are hard to sustain properly (just look at the cluster**** that was Starcraft). 16-18 is a much better cap for large games.
Checking multiple sites for bills is an entirely different proposition from checking multiple sites for fun.
Not doing the former carries large penalties. Not doing the latter merely means you get replaced out of a game. It's not even on the same order of magnitude.
FWIW: I agree with Meg: It's hard to check another site.
Hell, I don't even remember to go to my clan's thread.
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We need to bring basics back.
Put aside complexity a moment, what are the two issues we are really facing right now?
1. Not enough bodies.
2. Toxicity is increasing.
Basics are a great stepping stone for folks to jump into this community. Right now, they look at all these games and in many cases get intimidated. This leads to less bodies. But if we have basics, then they put their foot in the door, we set a hook to keep them coming back, and we have more bodies.
Plus, basics tend to be less serious, which might help vent some toxicity out of the community.
League games? Screw 'em. It was a nice idea that ended up being more trouble than it's worth. I think it fulfills a need that just isn't there. Making them any complexity would help a bit but why have the league in the first place? What is gained?
Complex games in general? Sure. But only with the proper stepping stones.
We have met the enemy killing mafia on this site, and it is us.
make sure that that his corporeal form is dead too, wouldn't want him ghosting around
splatter him across the wall and call it a naka-mural
but I'm down with giving him a chance
On the third hand, maybe that will only fan the flames of Bob's anger.
What happened to the Gutter was also stupid, but I don't see why it should be taken out on Proph.
I do agree for the need of a heavier hand with Meg than is currently being given, because he seems like he'd do this again at the drop of a hat. Proph doesn't, so he shouldn't have any harsher of a punishment.
I'd also make the case that having seen first-hand how such a thing could go wrong, Proph is likely to be a better mod than kpaca thinks; he won't bow to that sort of pressure after seeing consequences.
To begin: I don't like the idea of punishment if not required. The idea behind punishment is avoiding future occurrences of a problem, but if the problem already won't recur, what's the point of the punishment? Therefore, I believe that punishment is required only in cases where recurrence is likely.
To that end, I don't like the idea of punishing Proph. There's no way he'll ever do this again, period. It sounds like the current idea is to just slap him on the wrist, which is okay; I would recommend taking him off probation the very moment he concludes his next full game.
Chemtrails: Him having not weighed in, it's hard to judge whether or not he'd do something that breaks the spirit of mafia again. The currently proposed solution pretty elegantly takes care of that; it slaps his wrist for a bit longer until we can be more certain.
And then, we come to Megiddo. His attitude shows that he is likely to commit offenses against the spirit of the game; while I'm a big proponent of not taking games too seriously, Meg has shown that he does not want to be serious enough even to respect the basic rules that are needed for mafia to function. At present, I do not have confidence that any game of mafia Meg might play in would end well.
I believe the current punishment plan of long probation would not fully prevent Meg from doing something stupid again. Even though he's taking a break, I would support a temporary blacklist to back it up (say 2-3 months, nothing too long); slaps on the wrist for Proph and Chemtrails make sense, but I think Meg needs to be shown that this is not something that can be allowed, because right now he 100% does not believe it.
I want to play with the Megiddo who used to play mafia, very badly. That Megiddo is easily in my top 3 favorite players. The Megiddo I've been playing with lately is not him.
This doesn't solve the problem. I do not support it. Not only because of what was decided with the mafia subforum not punishing flaming, but also because it doesn't take into account the likelihood of a player doing stupid things again.
Now THIS I 100% agree with. More accountability, less confusion.
1. They fire really quick and therefore can get people into games quickly, therefore making it possible to increase the population of the subforum.
2. All the reasons Iso said.
3. They sound fun as heck.
Micros are inherently different from basics in that you need less than half as many players, so you don't have things like it taking a month for a rolling signup to come around; this way, it's more likely to be a week until firing.
Just make sure to have a strict deadline (say, 1 week per Day) and I think it would be a great idea.
ABSOLUTELY NOT.
There was a long time where 24 player game after 24 player game would almost never get off the ground. Even now, many signups linger for far fewer players.
Seppel is one of the best mods period, and one of the only people who can pull 24 players into a game right now, and only then with an interesting setup (which Seppel always has, that's why he's one of the best mods period).
On top of that, 24 player games can get bogged down heavily until you weed out a lot of the early players. There needs to be a lot of determination to be interested in the game from a lot of players, otherwise you end up with only a few interested players and a lot of lurkers until a lot of dudes die. And if people lurk, they get replaced, and once you have too many replacements you've used up the entire playerbase on a single game.
Hopefully that won't be a problem with FF2, but 24 player games are hard to sustain properly (just look at the cluster**** that was Starcraft). 16-18 is a much better cap for large games.
Perhaps I'll not completely exit mafia and just change my role in the subforum instead.
Not doing the former carries large penalties. Not doing the latter merely means you get replaced out of a game. It's not even on the same order of magnitude.
FWIW: I agree with Meg: It's hard to check another site.
Hell, I don't even remember to go to my clan's thread.