Re: 13 player minis is there a reason these can't be run as normals? Are people having that much trouble shoehorning SKs into minis that they need to add an extra person? (Hint: Probably won't make it much less swingy).
Re: Iso. Playing games with the win condition should fall under "PM quoting" and draw a modkill. If the mod didn't have a rule against it AND created the opportunity for it to be effective, while I think it's an unfortunate tactic to use, I would have to chalk it up to mod error and not put any blame on a player for using what they were given.
I mean, I landed a scum with the Lamest Gambit Ever in LOTR Mafia which relied on the scum not noticing that the opening post made it public knowledge that the Fellowship were scum. That's a form of metagaming in some sense. We can sometimes get into a bit of a "behavioural = good, metagaming = bad" mindset but I don't think all metagaming is bad. It's bad when rather than a tool to find scum, it can guarantee a scum due to the game design. PM wording is a common weakness in game design, hence we usually paper over that with a rule banning it.
First I've heard of this modkill. It is up to game mods to report this stuff if they feel it is warranted. Anak didn't mention it when reporting the results for Basic 44 in the signups thread, but I'll take a look anyway.
On the separate subject of gimmicks, I tend to think that ideally all games would be blind so that everyone is on an equal footing meta-wise. But blinds are annoying to use. All blind games all the time would be hideously annoying, especially with multiple games.
So if not everyone is using one, gimmicks in townie roles are a detriment to the town due to being harder to read. They are a bit selfish to use IMO. But not to the point of banning or even close.
Manders, this is a settled decision. If you want to argue about it, take it up with us in PM (and it is an us, Cyan, not some frolic of Azrael's). If you want to argue that as a matter of policy, we should let people get away with talking about a game outside that game, go for it, but it's not something I would ever go for. Mafia relies on everyone always following the rules, not only following them when they want to. It isn't up to individual players to decide when it is OK to break rules about outside posting anymore than it is the player's call to decide when they can PM quote or edit a post.
Just an addendum regarding Yanni. The matter has been resolved. There is no banning going on, but we've addressed Yanni's behaviour directly with Yanni. No-one else needs to get involved.
As a general principle, suiciding can be a legitimate game tactic as scum (for example, to prevent the town getting infomation) and we don't have a problem with that. Things like deliberately getting yourself lynched out of boredom or frustration (whether via suicide, claiming scum or any other means) are not on. Everyone has now been warned. In future, this sort of behaviour can be expected to get you on the probation list at the least.
We thank you all for your co-operation in simmering down after the initial outburst, and remind you all to bring your concerns to us rather than arguing it out in this thread or elsewhere in the mafia forum. Do not have any hesitation with bringing concerns or queries to us.
This was an awfully big rush of posts in a short space of time in the Mafia Council thread without the Council getting so much as a mention that I noticed. Perhaps due to the involvement of mods. Nonetheless. All of you who decided to have an argument here instead of PMing us and leaving it there, please learn for next time.
I do appreciate the input of people trying to set out the facts of what Yanni has or hasn't done. (Seppel, could you PM what you're saying are the 4 games out of 7?)
Apart from that, all this bickering back and forth isn't helpful. If you have a strong opinion on the issue, tell us. Privately. Not here. Thanks.
The flaming thing is a moderator issue rather than a council issue. I'm sure the mods among us like Manders, rian and of course Az are talking to the other mods about it. For now I would just be a little more calm and non-insulting than usual.
The thing about shorter games comes up every 6 months and my answer is the same: game mods have to design games to have a conversational flashpoint on day 1, like mine do. Even a no-kill night start (but that favours the town, so keep it in mind when balancing).
Otherwise you get interminable day 1s where noone is sure enough of anything.
Is there a particular reason why you want to run signups in advance of finishing the setup? People tend to get antsy if they sign up and the game doesn't start for weeks.
Well I hope you come back soon Cyan. For how much you sometimes annoy (anger?) me in games I do respect you as a player more than most players here and you are always fun to play with.
As for the no avatar, I actually prefer you like that. I just got so used to you without an avatar that I am still not used to you with one. It's just weird.
Yeah, what he said.
I'm on a break from playing mafia too at the moment (apart from keeping tabs on the Council thread) but my turn to mod a Normal is starting to get close. I'm sure I'll be up by the end of the year, anyway
Re: Axelrod's traitor in LOTR, that's about as good an implementation as I have seen. Traitor controls if they flip (so no being unwillingly recruited), the town got a clue in flavour that Frodo was about to go (the description of the kill he caused with the ring) and the idea of Frodo being corrupted by the ring was inherent in the flavour of the game even without that.
Arcadic: it's not just the interaction with cops that's unfair.
I agree with Az on the use of alignment-changing roles in practice, and with Guardman that Seppel's idea would be like being punched in the balls by the mod. It was kind of done once: the last night of High School Mafia.
I'm not in favour of a ban on alignment-changing roles, just mode being 300% more careful about using them.
Haven't you ever wondered how a game would have gone if the mechanics of the game had been better understood from the start? Have you ever considered that newbs might adapt better to a specialty environment if they have an example from a past game for how to adapt to situations that explicitly applies to them?
I've read through Day 1 of a few specialties where they didn't do ANYTHING except speculate on abilities for weeks. I think there could, just possibly, be a category of player who might get bored by this, and would prefer a more tactical game, without having to resort to playing basics.
Sure, but do we need them run outside the normal queues? I'm not sure what is actually being proposed.
Re: 1 game restriction - Maybe a caveat on this, given that some games tend to run incredibly long. If their first game is still running 2 months later, the restriction can be lifted.
Re: Basic requirement - Heavily disagree. My first was a specialty as well. Leave it up to the players to decide.
Re: AL's suggestion that newer players be kept out - While I appreciate that Naka's case affected your viewpoint significantly, this is just a horribly bad idea all around, and will generate the idea that this forum is elitist. No.
Re: GFs in basics - A godfather is a base and well-known mafia role, and is even one of the roles introduced on every initial explanation for Mafia I've ever seen. If anything, I feel they should in fact be included in basics, just to get people used to the mod lying to them.
Re: Retooling old specialties - Sounds cool. I can volunteer flavour writing services, depending on the base flavour.
I agree with all the above, save that the point of rewriting old specialties escapes me, particularly with the ever-lengthy queue of people with new setups waiting to run those.
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Re: Iso. Playing games with the win condition should fall under "PM quoting" and draw a modkill. If the mod didn't have a rule against it AND created the opportunity for it to be effective, while I think it's an unfortunate tactic to use, I would have to chalk it up to mod error and not put any blame on a player for using what they were given.
I mean, I landed a scum with the Lamest Gambit Ever in LOTR Mafia which relied on the scum not noticing that the opening post made it public knowledge that the Fellowship were scum. That's a form of metagaming in some sense. We can sometimes get into a bit of a "behavioural = good, metagaming = bad" mindset but I don't think all metagaming is bad. It's bad when rather than a tool to find scum, it can guarantee a scum due to the game design. PM wording is a common weakness in game design, hence we usually paper over that with a rule banning it.
So if not everyone is using one, gimmicks in townie roles are a detriment to the town due to being harder to read. They are a bit selfish to use IMO. But not to the point of banning or even close.
As a general principle, suiciding can be a legitimate game tactic as scum (for example, to prevent the town getting infomation) and we don't have a problem with that. Things like deliberately getting yourself lynched out of boredom or frustration (whether via suicide, claiming scum or any other means) are not on. Everyone has now been warned. In future, this sort of behaviour can be expected to get you on the probation list at the least.
We thank you all for your co-operation in simmering down after the initial outburst, and remind you all to bring your concerns to us rather than arguing it out in this thread or elsewhere in the mafia forum. Do not have any hesitation with bringing concerns or queries to us.
I do appreciate the input of people trying to set out the facts of what Yanni has or hasn't done. (Seppel, could you PM what you're saying are the 4 games out of 7?)
Apart from that, all this bickering back and forth isn't helpful. If you have a strong opinion on the issue, tell us. Privately. Not here. Thanks.
The thing about shorter games comes up every 6 months and my answer is the same: game mods have to design games to have a conversational flashpoint on day 1, like mine do. Even a no-kill night start (but that favours the town, so keep it in mind when balancing).
Otherwise you get interminable day 1s where noone is sure enough of anything.
No idea where he is.
And re: clans, I agree with Az. Get the setup before signups.
Is there a particular reason why you want to run signups in advance of finishing the setup? People tend to get antsy if they sign up and the game doesn't start for weeks.
Yeah, what he said.
I'm on a break from playing mafia too at the moment (apart from keeping tabs on the Council thread) but my turn to mod a Normal is starting to get close. I'm sure I'll be up by the end of the year, anyway
Re: Axelrod's traitor in LOTR, that's about as good an implementation as I have seen. Traitor controls if they flip (so no being unwillingly recruited), the town got a clue in flavour that Frodo was about to go (the description of the kill he caused with the ring) and the idea of Frodo being corrupted by the ring was inherent in the flavour of the game even without that.
Arcadic: it's not just the interaction with cops that's unfair.
I'm not in favour of a ban on alignment-changing roles, just mode being 300% more careful about using them.
Sure, but do we need them run outside the normal queues? I'm not sure what is actually being proposed.
I agree with all the above, save that the point of rewriting old specialties escapes me, particularly with the ever-lengthy queue of people with new setups waiting to run those.