Blue gets specifc tutoring typically for instants which causes a reveal but here it's just cards. Again, given Long-term plans, this card is a little over the top power wise.
Yeah, Damnation may have slowed the environment down! Seriously, if you know it's there, you can play around it. The 8 *** effects just allow more colors to be played.
Still, a vote would be kinda lame looking back but I wouldn't put it past WotC. Remember the BoP vs Elves vote?
It costs less to kill more creatures because it is a drawback. Want to kill just the opponet's creatures? Pay more, specificaly a little over double. Again, as I've stated many times at the cost of being the broken record again when you as the player break the card or symmetry, that is NOT inherent to the card, that has nothing to do with flavor reasons or the card.
If Black has a problem killing it's own creatures (which in no way in hell it should) then you flavor haters should say that Black would never pay it's own life to do any type of effects; I mean...that's just hurting itself, that's not Black, why would it do that?:rolleyes:
From a flavor perspective, Black is allowed to do anything, it's in the article, which, as an extreme example would include enchantment kill. They don't do that for power/mechanic reasons inherent in the game, not the flavor. Black kills creatures. It is aptly named the KING of destruction (living things). Black wouldn't give a damn (bad pun intended) about killing it's own creatures if it would give it power (i.e. win the game).
Why would a Black planeswalker feel bad about sacrificing it's own minions, possibly DEMONS, to achieve it's own ends? Yeah, sounds so not Black.:rolleyes:
For the mods: despite my quite vocal feedback in this and the other thread, this is new stuff in response to people who either didn't read the whole thread, bringing up new arguments or are doing the broken record thing without reading.
Thrawn, saying an apple is a fruit doesn't mean an orange isn't. I've already said, fine, *** can be in White's pie, I don't care to argue staple tradition crap.
*** is more Black than White. I said that bout...well, a crapload of posts ago, in direct response to you posting that in the other thread.:rolleyes:
Save that sig. You'll need it for the Ask Wizards next summer when you have to ask Maro why he replaced *** with Damnation in the core set when he said that in an article about elegant design *** was White. He'll respond with his Breaker Rule.
Or maybe he'll say he never said it was only White. Maro tricky? NEVER!
And if I'm wrong, I'll sig that you were right, *** is White.
Anyone even look at the flavor/color pie articles that Maro wrote up? Even if you disagree, that's what they see it as. Black getting everything at a price is Black because they say it is. Same reason swamps produce :symb:.
And how in the world is tutoring a White effect? I'd like to hear that if people wanna call me stupid for saying *** is more Black than White. But I digress, not on topic.
@MB: how is mass creature kill NOT a Wrath effect? There's only one Wrath effect in the game...mass creature kill.:rolleyes: No one calls Geddon *** for land do they?
This is so disappointing. This is the kind of decision that makes Yu-Gi-Oh such a terrible game. They release a new set that completely smokes past sets making old cards useless. It's really too bad and it shows such a lack of creativity on their part.
You're basically gonna have to get 4 of these to have a competitive deck w/ black in it. IMO, that's a sign of poor development.
Yeah but everyone playing *** year after year after year and never typically using the obligatory-lame-add-a-Block-mechanic-effect-to-overcosted-*** variant is ok right?
Yeah, you should be worried since this is an obvious lack of creativity issue. Come on people, open your eyes.:rolleyes:
Damantion replacing *** is about one of the best things that could happen to White right now. WotC obviously has identity issues with it, give them a chance to do some good design space things with it.
Mutilate would've been pretty sweet too but people STILL have't gotten over the fact that Cancel is correct R_E. How long before people realize that *** warped the standard WAY out of shape? Is that fixable, with so many efficient 4/4's for 4 and even 3/4 for 3? 3/3's for 2? Is it beyond repair? Maybe it was only possible to fix one of the mistakes.
Cataclysm would be pretty sweet. Nice mirror to the Smallpox in a way, eh?
Yeah, White control has had it good at the expense of Black control for just a little bit now, wouldn't you say? Condemn vs Devour in Shadow? Come on now.
Seriously, why do you play White nowadays? For ***, let's not kid ourselves here. People complain that Green used to be splashed just for accel and Blue for counter and then they got aggressive with some changes (Green up, Blue down) but no one seems to have a problem with people splashing WW for ***?
@EG: The same is true of U/W control (Island, go, Island, Remand/Boomerang go, Plains, EoT Draw Card, plains, Wrath, go, ad naseum). Your point? At least it makes a little more sense here. What's good for the goose is good for the gander?
Mark Rosewater:
"This is the area that black feels is its greatest strength. All the other colors put limitations on themselves. Some limitations are physical, some intellectual, others moral. Black doesn’t do that. Black uses whatever tools are available. Death, disease, madness. Nothing is off limits to black. Mechanically, this is what makes black king of destruction (of living things) and discard."
"To accomplish its goals, black seeks power. Why? Because unlike all the other colors, black doesn’t feel a need to restrict what it’s allowed to do. To black, an individual is allowed to use any means necessary to get what it wants. Thus, the true measure of success to black is the ability to do whatever you wish."
Pringles, you said "shouldn't be the color of the god guys" which implies that they are. My bad if you didn't mean to imply that.
@Good: Um, have you been reading any of the thread? NO ONE is saying that simply because this exists that it will replace ***, no more than anyone argues that for the White Shock replacing the Red one. It's for all the other reasons (flavor, power, mechanics, design) that it will replace it.
No one can make a valid argument for White Shock replacing Red Shock. It's why they haven't. However, Damnation replacing ***...I refer you to the previous 10 pages in this thread.:rolleyes:
Correct Pringles. Mono, ask if you are unclear next time.
Actually Pringles, White isn't the color of the good guys. It lends itself more naturally to that, due to things like ***...again, all the more reason it should go.
As for flavor, this should end it here: black is about doing WHATEVER for power, which ultimately, in a game, is to win. Black doesn't get everything for power reasons, like enchantment removal since it would almost never be aimed at your opponent's stuff, rather your own ( and the occasional Ivory Mask). From a flavor standpoint, Black has access to anything.
And Long-term Plans wants a word with you as well.
Still, a vote would be kinda lame looking back but I wouldn't put it past WotC. Remember the BoP vs Elves vote?
Selecting X Edition:
Wrath of God vs. Damnation.
That would settle once and for all whether or not the voting is rigged as well.:D
If Black has a problem killing it's own creatures (which in no way in hell it should) then you flavor haters should say that Black would never pay it's own life to do any type of effects; I mean...that's just hurting itself, that's not Black, why would it do that?:rolleyes:
From a flavor perspective, Black is allowed to do anything, it's in the article, which, as an extreme example would include enchantment kill. They don't do that for power/mechanic reasons inherent in the game, not the flavor. Black kills creatures. It is aptly named the KING of destruction (living things). Black wouldn't give a damn (bad pun intended) about killing it's own creatures if it would give it power (i.e. win the game).
Why would a Black planeswalker feel bad about sacrificing it's own minions, possibly DEMONS, to achieve it's own ends? Yeah, sounds so not Black.:rolleyes:
For the mods: despite my quite vocal feedback in this and the other thread, this is new stuff in response to people who either didn't read the whole thread, bringing up new arguments or are doing the broken record thing without reading.
*** is more Black than White. I said that bout...well, a crapload of posts ago, in direct response to you posting that in the other thread.:rolleyes:
Save that sig. You'll need it for the Ask Wizards next summer when you have to ask Maro why he replaced *** with Damnation in the core set when he said that in an article about elegant design *** was White. He'll respond with his Breaker Rule.
Or maybe he'll say he never said it was only White. Maro tricky? NEVER!
And if I'm wrong, I'll sig that you were right, *** is White.
And how in the world is tutoring a White effect? I'd like to hear that if people wanna call me stupid for saying *** is more Black than White. But I digress, not on topic.
@MB: how is mass creature kill NOT a Wrath effect? There's only one Wrath effect in the game...mass creature kill.:rolleyes: No one calls Geddon *** for land do they?
"Main phase, Land *** ftw?"
"Crap, the Wrath Land effect, oh noes!!!!"
Yeah but everyone playing *** year after year after year and never typically using the obligatory-lame-add-a-Block-mechanic-effect-to-overcosted-*** variant is ok right?
Yeah, you should be worried since this is an obvious lack of creativity issue. Come on people, open your eyes.:rolleyes:
Damantion replacing *** is about one of the best things that could happen to White right now. WotC obviously has identity issues with it, give them a chance to do some good design space things with it.
Yeah, White control has had it good at the expense of Black control for just a little bit now, wouldn't you say? Condemn vs Devour in Shadow? Come on now.
Seriously, why do you play White nowadays? For ***, let's not kid ourselves here. People complain that Green used to be splashed just for accel and Blue for counter and then they got aggressive with some changes (Green up, Blue down) but no one seems to have a problem with people splashing WW for ***?
Yeah, tastes a little off to me too.:p
Mark Rosewater:
"This is the area that black feels is its greatest strength. All the other colors put limitations on themselves. Some limitations are physical, some intellectual, others moral. Black doesn’t do that. Black uses whatever tools are available. Death, disease, madness. Nothing is off limits to black. Mechanically, this is what makes black king of destruction (of living things) and discard."
"To accomplish its goals, black seeks power. Why? Because unlike all the other colors, black doesn’t feel a need to restrict what it’s allowed to do. To black, an individual is allowed to use any means necessary to get what it wants. Thus, the true measure of success to black is the ability to do whatever you wish."
*** is Black. End of discussion.
@Good: Um, have you been reading any of the thread? NO ONE is saying that simply because this exists that it will replace ***, no more than anyone argues that for the White Shock replacing the Red one. It's for all the other reasons (flavor, power, mechanics, design) that it will replace it.
No one can make a valid argument for White Shock replacing Red Shock. It's why they haven't. However, Damnation replacing ***...I refer you to the previous 10 pages in this thread.:rolleyes:
Actually Pringles, White isn't the color of the good guys. It lends itself more naturally to that, due to things like ***...again, all the more reason it should go.
As for flavor, this should end it here: black is about doing WHATEVER for power, which ultimately, in a game, is to win. Black doesn't get everything for power reasons, like enchantment removal since it would almost never be aimed at your opponent's stuff, rather your own ( and the occasional Ivory Mask). From a flavor standpoint, Black has access to anything.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mr109
Can we end that debate now please?
Even more reason to remove ***.