How have the Forbidding Watchtowers been working for you? Is the entering tapped/white mana better than than running Mutavaults or is it just a cost concern?
Surprisingly well actually. Useful in almost every game they come down. If you're on the ropes or need a creature to hang back and defend, a 1/5 for 2 mana is perfect. Strong defensive applications with Basilisk Collar. If it's late game and you have at least 5 lands, you can equip him with a sword and swing. He's a major thorn in your opponent's side once you have the resources.
Coming in tapped: This is a pain, and there will occasionally be the odd game where you either lose a turn or can't execute as much as you would have because this card came in tapped, but most of the time you will be able to play it as your first land without repercussion. The list I use runs only 3 Students, so in absentia of him there is nothing else competing for a turn 1 cast (other than vial). Obviously vial would receive priority and you would play an untapped land instead. Otherwise i've usually encountered it later in the game when I don't need it as much, and as your hand and the field is thinning out its more welcome to draw into this then another non-utility land.
Forbidding Watchtower vs Mutavault: I would use the watchtower in a list that was more midrange or control-focused. A heavy rushdown aggro deck would probably pair better with mutavault. I also slightly prefer the Tower for the fact that it has better survivability, and since knights usually like to get stabilized a bit before they win, you'll have the mana to use a more defensive creature. Since I haven't run mutavault myself I can't speak to how frequently or practical it is to activate it when knight exemplar is in play, but that requires two variables.
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Standard WRG Naya Blitz WR Boros Aggro W White Lightning
Modern W Death and Taxes WKnights R Red Deck Wins RG Zoo WG Hatebears WG Aura Hexproof WU Luminarch Ascension WB Tokens WUB Esper Control
'Tact' is the art of making a point without making an enemy. - Sir Isaac Newton
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
I've been out of the scene for a few years and have thinking of getting back into the game (Alara block was the last time I played competitively). I was looking at getting into modern and playing something different than my regular control decks.
I have no idea of the local metagame yet so the Sideboard is currently
3 Rule of Law
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Due Respect - More twin hate
4 Kor Firewalker
4 Mana Tithe - placeholder till I figure out the local metagame
The deck is basically an update of something I used to run on occasion to catch people off guard. After updating I realized that they were mostly knights. I didn't realize the price of aether vials had gone up so much which puts them out of my budget range at the moment. Due to all the activated abilities I figure abuse of Suppression Field could be fun route to take as it even messes with fetch lands. I don't have the Exemplars yet, but I'm not sure what to sub out for them.
Thoughts on how to improve the deck would be greatly appreciated.
Hi there, welcome to the Modern Knights thread! Thought I would reply to your comment, since it seemed at risk of being buried under all the KotR/RtC combo discussion.
Knights are a blast to play in Modern. It's very rewarding to defeat a $400+ competitive deck with your own deck that's not only a rogue type, but also plays fairly. I find combat abilities like first strike, flying and protection to be overlooked quite often in the competitive meta these days. You would be surprised how easily you can turn the tables by turtling into a strong build when on the ropes, or pressuring the hell out of your opponent's flimsy creatures with your own.
You're looking at a bit of a tougher and longer game with a control-esque focus to your knights list. You won't be able to castrate your opponent like you can with a UWx or GB list, however you can seriously impair them enough until you land your alpha strike. Here are my suggestions:
SPELLS
Light from Within, Suppression Field and Brave the Elements are too many at 4 each. You can safely cut these down to three apiece. With Light and Suppression you only need one to make a splash, and that splash should be enough to turn the tables on your opponent (unless you're facing tron or elves). If the game is prolonged to the point where you require two the odds are probably not going to be in your favour. The same goes with Brave -- it's an amazing, game winning card and by all means use it, but odds are it will sit in your hand until you get an Exemplar out, or are trying to keep another creature alive until Light lands on the field.
CREATURES
Consul's Lieutenant and Spectral Rider -- you have better options than these. While a novel suggestion, Consul is IMO outclassed by other 2CMC cards - particularly in knight tribal. I would switch him for a set of Knight of the Holy Nimbus. This dude combos with Suppression Field and will *literally* not die. He's an amazing inclusion for your control strategy and can either keep your opponent's critters at bay or apply some serious pressure himself. As for the Rider, I think Leonin Skyhunter is what you are looking for. Flying is much more relevant than intimidate -- and you will still see plenty of white creatures in modern. Unfortunately, a foil Leonin Skyhunter is nowhere near as cool as a foil Spectral Rider.
Fiend Hunter -- this one is your call, but without running Honor of the Pure as an early buff, he is still extremely vulnerable to being 2-for-1'd by Lightning Bolt. Mind you, you do have some sources to protect him, but lacking the buff from not being a knight doesn't help his odds. You can always try him out and see how he fares - my fear is is just that more often than not he will be underwhelming (despite having played amazing in Standard).
Knight Exemplar -- is strangely absent. Where is she? You should be committing 4 slots to her.
Hero of Bladehold -- an extremely relevant card for this deck. Generates immense pressure and isn't effected by Suppression. She closes out games on her own, and is one of your power cards next to Brave, Light and Exemplar.
LANDS
If you can, I would add 4x Cavern of Souls. This works wonders in Modern. It's an auto-include as a 4-of for me; I have just been saved too many times by it to not give it a permanent spot. And especially with Vial being inaccessible, it's even more applicable. I always auto-include a 4x of Flagstones of Trokair as well; it's fantastic against Smallpox, random sac effects and other BS that red/black can cook up. These cards aren't mandatory for playing the deck but Cavern in particular will have a huge impact on your games. Once your opponent realizes he can't counter your creatures, he will often make mistakes or tap his mana in plays that allow you to cast your non-creature spells.
SIDEBOARD
I think you are safe to leave in Kor Firewalker as a permanent inclusion. I end up siding him in in probably minimum 70% of my games and he is always extremely relevant when he comes down. As for Mana Tithe and Oblivion Ring, those are safe to leave in for now until your deck finds its footing.
Below, I have included the deck I use on MTGO. It's not a finished product by any means and it's probably due for an overhaul, but it's the suppression list i've used for some time. Notice the Human creature type and synergy with Champion of the Parish. The lack of card draw really, really hurts though. I have constantly been swapping 2x Infiltration Lens in and out of the deck, but I never seem to draw it in my games!
Thanks for the comments. This deck is still being updated from last time it was used during Lorwyn/Alara standard. I've been out of the game for a while and just now starting up again. The Exemplars will end up replacing the Lieutenants as these were what I had available when I was updating the time. 4 of those would probably replace 1 Fiend Hunter and the Lieutenants. I was also debating the use of Leonin Arbiters in here to hose searching as well and it shouldn't impact this deck as much. I'll repost once I actually get some testing time with the new parts.
Leonin Arbiter is actually a pretty decent addition to mono-white knights. Obviously combos with anthems and even better if you have adequate protection spells around. Plus in application with Suppression Field it can only serve to strengthen your control element.
The only concern I would add is that he doesn't replace instant-speed artifact/enchant removal, which you will still need to win your games. He can certainly make a dent against your opponent but even with Vial he usually cant stop same-turn combos. I've vialed him in at instant speed in previous games against twin, and while he does keep their piece locked away for some time they are eventually going to take him out.
Private Mod Note
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Standard WRG Naya Blitz WR Boros Aggro W White Lightning
Modern W Death and Taxes WKnights R Red Deck Wins RG Zoo WG Hatebears WG Aura Hexproof WU Luminarch Ascension WB Tokens WUB Esper Control
'Tact' is the art of making a point without making an enemy. - Sir Isaac Newton
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Thought I would post my main knights list that i've been running on MTGO (I run a few variants). It's had about a 68% win ratio while playing competitive matches under the "Tournament Practice" filter (over a couple hundred games). It's a mono-white list and will be staying mono-white for now. Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated!
Disenchant vs. Sundering Growth = Yes, growth has applications here. There are a few token generators. In reality, the circumstances in which you need a snap play of enchant/artifact destruction and might be facing that one colourless mana from either Cavern of Souls or a Blood Moon is the difference between life and death. The negligible gain of an extra 1/1 or 2/1 token (in extremely obscure circumstances) is not worth the risk.
Disenchant vs. Revoke Existence = 90% of the time your target won't be indestructible. More importantly, the instant speed overrules sorcery in any competitive environment. It's an inferior response to Wurmcoil Engine but the fringe scenarios in which you will face Wurmcoil don't warrant the change.
Day of Judgment vs Wrath of God = don't want to spend the extra $$ online for a difference that has only been relevant in one game to date (out of hundreds).
No Sword of Light and Shadow? = It's amazing, but in all the circumstances I have used it it's been more for the colour protection than the triggered effects. Its sister sword, SoFaI, alternatively is very relevant in almost every match because you can ping your opponent's non-combat creatures and *gasp* draw cards - a missing link in knight decks.
No Elspeth, Knight-Errant? = She's amazing, and honestly has always had an amazing impact when i've played her. The problem is just that this format is so volatile, when I get her out she is either too slow or is in danger of being focused down by my opponent's creatures. That being said, in probably 50% of your other games she can turn the tide - ESPECIALLY if you get into a gridlock. She's a gamble, and you roll the dice when you use her. She has less sticking potential than Light from Within, and in most circumstances less than Hero of Bladehold as well.
Why the singleton Heliod, God of the Sun in your side? = He's always relevant when he shows up, and it's usually not game breaking when he doesn't. He reminds me of the psychology players should follow when considering the statistical odds of drawing a specific card in your opening hand (in a 60 card deck):
-- 1 added (11.6% chance) - Helpful to your strategy and serves its purpose when it does appear, but generally not detrimental to your game if it doesn't. Should not be a specific answer to a very specific threat without other similar/versatile cards.
-- 2 added (22.1% chance) - Relevant to your strategy, however multiples generally are not useful and/or you have other options to deal with specific threats. These are great "sidekick" cards to your critical ones.
-- 3 added (31.5% chance) - Extremely relevant to your strategy, it's usefulness is beyond fringe benefits and it's something you hope to see at least once or twice in your games.
-- 4 added (39.9% chance) - Core/Critical component of your deck's function. Your other cards usually will build off this set and it is something you are absolutely counting on appearing.
I've been out of the scene for a few years and have thinking of getting back into the game (Alara block was the last time I played competitively). I was looking at getting into modern and playing something different than my regular control decks.
I have no idea of the local metagame yet so the Sideboard is currently
3 Rule of Law
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Due Respect - More twin hate
4 Kor Firewalker
4 Mana Tithe - placeholder till I figure out the local metagame
The deck is basically an update of something I used to run on occasion to catch people off guard. After updating I realized that they were mostly knights. I didn't realize the price of aether vials had gone up so much which puts them out of my budget range at the moment. Due to all the activated abilities I figure abuse of Suppression Field could be fun route to take as it even messes with fetch lands. I don't have the Exemplars yet, but I'm not sure what to sub out for them.
Thoughts on how to improve the deck would be greatly appreciated.
Hi there, welcome to the Modern Knights thread! Thought I would reply to your comment, since it seemed at risk of being buried under all the KotR/RtC combo discussion.
Knights are a blast to play in Modern. It's very rewarding to defeat a $400+ competitive deck with your own deck that's not only a rogue type, but also plays fairly. I find combat abilities like first strike, flying and protection to be overlooked quite often in the competitive meta these days. You would be surprised how easily you can turn the tables by turtling into a strong build when on the ropes, or pressuring the hell out of your opponent's flimsy creatures with your own.
You're looking at a bit of a tougher and longer game with a control-esque focus to your knights list. You won't be able to castrate your opponent like you can with a UWx or GB list, however you can seriously impair them enough until you land your alpha strike. Here are my suggestions:
SPELLS
Light from Within, Suppression Field and Brave the Elements are too many at 4 each. You can safely cut these down to three apiece. With Light and Suppression you only need one to make a splash, and that splash should be enough to turn the tables on your opponent (unless you're facing tron or elves). If the game is prolonged to the point where you require two the odds are probably not going to be in your favour. The same goes with Brave -- it's an amazing, game winning card and by all means use it, but odds are it will sit in your hand until you get an Exemplar out, or are trying to keep another creature alive until Light lands on the field.
CREATURES
Consul's Lieutenant and Spectral Rider -- you have better options than these. While a novel suggestion, Consul is IMO outclassed by other 2CMC cards - particularly in knight tribal. I would switch him for a set of Knight of the Holy Nimbus. This dude combos with Suppression Field and will *literally* not die. He's an amazing inclusion for your control strategy and can either keep your opponent's critters at bay or apply some serious pressure himself. As for the Rider, I think Leonin Skyhunter is what you are looking for. Flying is much more relevant than intimidate -- and you will still see plenty of white creatures in modern. Unfortunately, a foil Leonin Skyhunter is nowhere near as cool as a foil Spectral Rider.
Fiend Hunter -- this one is your call, but without running Honor of the Pure as an early buff, he is still extremely vulnerable to being 2-for-1'd by Lightning Bolt. Mind you, you do have some sources to protect him, but lacking the buff from not being a knight doesn't help his odds. You can always try him out and see how he fares - my fear is is just that more often than not he will be underwhelming (despite having played amazing in Standard).
Knight Exemplar -- is strangely absent. Where is she? You should be committing 4 slots to her.
Hero of Bladehold -- an extremely relevant card for this deck. Generates immense pressure and isn't effected by Suppression. She closes out games on her own, and is one of your power cards next to Brave, Light and Exemplar.
LANDS
If you can, I would add 4x Cavern of Souls. This works wonders in Modern. It's an auto-include as a 4-of for me; I have just been saved too many times by it to not give it a permanent spot. And especially with Vial being inaccessible, it's even more applicable. I always auto-include a 4x of Flagstones of Trokair as well; it's fantastic against Smallpox, random sac effects and other BS that red/black can cook up. These cards aren't mandatory for playing the deck but Cavern in particular will have a huge impact on your games. Once your opponent realizes he can't counter your creatures, he will often make mistakes or tap his mana in plays that allow you to cast your non-creature spells.
SIDEBOARD
I think you are safe to leave in Kor Firewalker as a permanent inclusion. I end up siding him in in probably minimum 70% of my games and he is always extremely relevant when he comes down. As for Mana Tithe and Oblivion Ring, those are safe to leave in for now until your deck finds its footing.
Below, I have included the deck I use on MTGO. It's not a finished product by any means and it's probably due for an overhaul, but it's the suppression list i've used for some time. Notice the Human creature type and synergy with Champion of the Parish. The lack of card draw really, really hurts though. I have constantly been swapping 2x Infiltration Lens in and out of the deck, but I never seem to draw it in my games!
Yeah I guess I thought along the same lines. The +1/+1 counter could be useful for dodging bolt IF you already have one Honor of the Pure out. You survive and come out stronger. But in seems in most cases Test of Faith would be better and no one uses that. It would seem this may be less valuable overall than Selesnya Charm.
In 90% of cases this card would probably read as putting a +1/+1 counter on a creature and then either make your creature "fight" another one or stop a burn spell.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard WRG Naya Blitz WR Boros Aggro W White Lightning
Modern W Death and Taxes WKnights R Red Deck Wins RG Zoo WG Hatebears WG Aura Hexproof WU Luminarch Ascension WB Tokens WUB Esper Control
'Tact' is the art of making a point without making an enemy. - Sir Isaac Newton
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Im new to playing Knights tomorrow will be my 3rd time playing knights and modern. Need some sideboard help. These are the decks i have played against so far
UR Delver
UWR Control
Storm
BW Tron
RG Tron
Some sideboard suggestions (not an exhaustive list):
You can sometimes gang up with first strikers to defend against a wurmcoil (stop from attacking), and Basilisk Collar is amazing here (with first strike). Use of flyers, i.e. Leonin Skyhunter are great in these gridlocks, especially for Sword connections.
Game 1: I got pissed off because I took out from my SB this morning 2x Rest in peace. But is was quite funny, because even cascading into a Living End, he had already killed a few dudes. And he casted Living end two times, and my dudes were just going and coming back. His weak creatures couldnt stand in front of even a single knight equipped.
Game 2: Second turn I casted Chalice of the Void in my first turn for 0 mana, he couldnt do anything.
Second round: Bogles (1-2)
Game 1: He got a slow hand without lifelink and my Crusader finished the game for me (I had a basilisk equipped, so I was gaining some time/life).
Game 2: I had a slow hand, mulligan and got mana screwed. He was fast and he won quickly.
Game 3: He had a huge dude with lifelink (like 18/18) and I got a few dudes on board and a huge crusader (like 8/6 with lifelink). It was funny because we were hitting like almost 20 damage per turn and gaining all life back. I would win next turn (I casted more dudes ftw) and he top decked that aura that gives +1+1 for each aura. I had like 30 life and he hit for 34)
Thir round: Merfolk (1-1-1)
Game 1: T1 Vial followed by a lot of Lords. He won like T4.
Game 2: I side in Disenchant and destroyed his T1 Vial. He was really slow. I smashed him.
Game 3: A reaaaaally long match. He had sided in lots of Vapor Snag and Echoing Truth, returning my attacking equipped dudes all the time, what delayed me a lot and gave him some time. He casted the master of waves for a lot of tokens, the time went out and we couldnt finish the game.
Game 2: Had to mulligan and got a slow hand. He got a fast hand, 2 enchants and like T4-5 he assembled the combo and I took 429842949 damage.
Game 3: He almost assembled the combo, but failed. We were both on topdeck and I got a O-Naginata FTW.
General comments: Im pretty happy with the deck. Puresteel Paladin draw engine and metalcraft is simply nuts. After G1 he was always a target of removal whenever possible. Knight of the White Orchid never helped me out, he all matches was a 2/2 first strike dude. Knight of Meadowgrain is amazing, I won several matches because of her and of crusade. I never drew Godsend but I would rather cast a 3cmc dude than it. I usually dont have spare mana for it. The swords are great, but sometimes it get stuck on my hand. Steelshaper's Gift is awesome and I think 2 is the right number.
PS: I know that Stony Silence ruin my artifact based build, but affinity scares me. And it may lock their game.
Nice run! I have won Living End matches the same way you have -- all you have to do is pace yourself. Nice job using Chalice of the Void.
I have a few questions/suggestions for your deck:
1. How has Bladed Bracers worked for you? It seems largely overlooked but would work well here as an enabler for O-Naginata. Too bad it doesn't put your creatures out of bolt-range.
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2. Do you find Student to be a little mana-intensive in this [puresteel] deck? It seems you will almost always have something to play instead of leveling him. With 4 Students AND 4 Caverns, there is also a bit of a level-up liability IMO.
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3. I would recommend subbing out 2 Crusaders for 2 Fiendslayer Paladin. UR may be dented a bit with Treasure Cruise and Dig through Time being banned, but Lightning Bolt is still the most-played spell in modern.
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4. I know you are thinking of cutting Knight of the White Orchid. My advice: don't. You may not have had a game during these matches were his ability triggered, but you WILL have later matches where you pray to draw him or drop him on T2-T3 for that extra land to set you ahead. This is not to mention the early game ramp combo of Path + Orchid.
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5. Don't use Stony Silence in your SB. It neuters half of your deck. Instead, load up on Disenchant and run 4. You won't regret doing this. Not only does it help solve affinity matches but it gives you greater odds against combo and control decks. It is very reliable spot removal, and relevant in probably 50-70% of all games you play.
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6. Finally, if you are having trouble targeting your creatures with equipment (i.e. bolt), consider loading up on creatures with colour protection or bolt/destroy resilience. Fiendslayer Paladin and Knight of the Holy Nimbus are both humans, while Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers (or Brimaz, King of Oreskos if you have the funds) is just a solid creature.
Good call on taking out Godsend. It's cool as hell but far too cumbersome for any sort of competitive play. I think another Basilisk Collar would be a good choice. OHKOing anything your opponent throws at you with first strike + deathtouch is just too good to pass up.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard WRG Naya Blitz WR Boros Aggro W White Lightning
Modern W Death and Taxes WKnights R Red Deck Wins RG Zoo WG Hatebears WG Aura Hexproof WU Luminarch Ascension WB Tokens WUB Esper Control
'Tact' is the art of making a point without making an enemy. - Sir Isaac Newton
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Combo is an auto-loss as always. I'll have to spend some money on Leyline of Sanctity. Any other recommendations against combo decks of any kind?
A lot of anti-combo cards have been mentioned, but these are my all-stars that have saved the day again and again:
Disenchant - classic removal and still as reliable as ever. It has saved me countless times. I now run 3 at any given time (and usually keep one Leonin Relic-Warder in the main). I find this usually provides the right number I am after. If you can run Sundering Growth even better, but I wouldn't count on it if you are using Cavern.
Pithing Needle - you're already using it, so hats off right there. Remember it can name planeswalkers, combo pieces, artifacts, etc. When facing twin, remember not to name Splinter Twin itself but instead its targets.
Celestial Purge - I run one of these in the side. I always seem to find games where I can side it in. It even takes out Siege Rhino. So many great permanents that have a red or black splash these days.
Rest in Peace - Its purpose is removing the concept of a graveyard from the game. Cards are simply gone, and graveyard/death triggers don't active. This is the best defense against the Delve mechanic and it hits storm + loam pretty good too. With Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time finally banned, though, Relic of Progenitus may be the more economical card for dealing with Snapcaster.
Spellskite - As pzbw7z already mentioned, this is a great all-around card. Stops numerous combo engines.
You already seem aware of other anti-top tier cards (Kataki, Canonist, etc..)
Some other considerations:
Nevermore - Slow, but it obviously works. Colours black and red have literally 0 response to deal with enchantments.
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben - You need to run at least 3. She is most relevant if you are pushing for an aggro win.
Surgical Extraction - Obviously is an anti-combo card, but you have the added challenge of getting a combo piece into the grave first. More relevant with discard to help you out.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard WRG Naya Blitz WR Boros Aggro W White Lightning
Modern W Death and Taxes WKnights R Red Deck Wins RG Zoo WG Hatebears WG Aura Hexproof WU Luminarch Ascension WB Tokens WUB Esper Control
'Tact' is the art of making a point without making an enemy. - Sir Isaac Newton
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Looks pretty good! How useful has Noble Hierarch been? I don't run a G/W knights list myself but she seems a little less relevant here since you aren't necessarily racing for that 3cmc sweet spot on turn 2 (as you would in a junk/hatebears list). This is just an initial observation, but I would consider dropping them and running a few Qasali Pridemage instead. You get the added versatility of artifact / enchant removal (which can be a game-changer against many top-tier decks today), you could add another knight (you probably only need two Pridemages) and you have further synergy with Brave the Elements, Honor of the Pure and even Aether Vial for surprise blocks/removal. Only suggesting this because you already have a solid manabase and 4 vials. A Hierarch also isn't that ideal to draw later on.
My suggestion is to try cutting the Hierarchs and instead running 2 Pridemage, and 1 Knight of the White Orchid. You may even be able to swing 20 land and run 2 Orchid, although this approach is a little more ambitious.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard WRG Naya Blitz WR Boros Aggro W White Lightning
Modern W Death and Taxes WKnights R Red Deck Wins RG Zoo WG Hatebears WG Aura Hexproof WU Luminarch Ascension WB Tokens WUB Esper Control
'Tact' is the art of making a point without making an enemy. - Sir Isaac Newton
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
I don't see burn sweepers that often. I've seen Pyroclasm used more than anything else. Most players today seem content with spot removal... Just be wary of it in non-aggro decks. According to MTGTop8 Pyroclasm is only used in 3.8% of the common meta decks nowadays. Unlike the lovely Lightning Bolt, now at a whopping 53.1%! That's right, expect to see it in 1 of every 2 games you play.
Pyroclasm is a staple of Tron and some other decks. Burn usually prefers Volcanic Fallout due to the additional player damage and the can't be countered aspect. Jund often runs Anger of the Gods which is super against Pod or anything else that runs annoying Persist creatures.
You're right! It's a card you can very likely anticipate in a R/G Tron list. I have pretty well seen exclusively U Tron lists lately so maybe that's why I forgot to mention. I can't say that i've seen Volcanic Fallout in any burn list i've played against, though. It seems to me that most of them run enough creatures that they wouldn't want to risk hurting their offensive line. I am sure burn decks do run it; I just haven't seen it. And you're right, Jund usually packs a pyroclasm/anger of the gods singleton in the SB. That's another deck I don't bump into very often anymore.
What distinguishes your deck from most of the lists posted here is your choice to run a full set of Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers, 3x Wilt-Leaf Liege and 2x Kinsbaile Cavalier. I think the Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers is a viable card and a good choice. Same goes for Liege (his anthem is relevant in your deck given your high creature count). [Insert sales pitch for Light from Within and how good it is with the elf knights]. Kinsbaile is a bit of a risky play, more like a bomb that you want to play then swing for the win. Vialing him in to double the attack power of some unblocked creatures is a great finisher. Just don't expect him to stick around on the board for too long with that juicy 4cmc cost and 2 toughness. Windbrisk Heights seems possible in your deck, again given your high creature count and low average CMC cost. Let us know how it works!
Caviliers main competition for the three-drop slot in a WG list isn't Mirran Crusader, it's Knight of the Reliquary. It's hard for me see that choice because KotR is just SO cool; she's much more versatile than your run-of-the-mill beater. She also can get HUGE! KotR does have her own mana-base requirements to shine.
Liege has to compete with Hero of Bladehold. Hero is very slightly easier (not in many - maybe most - decks, its true, but some of us run Mutavault) to cast and if you un-tap with her she brings massive beats all by her lonesome - well, she brings her own friends to pump. Knights don't exactly swarm and with only one other WG play-set to get the double pump, I'd probably go with Hero. Actually, Ive been there and done that but in a mono-W list.
There are some advantages to the Wilt-Leaf guys and I'm not criticizing the choices just gently leaning towards slightly disagreeing a bit. Personally, I've been to lazy to try a G splash yet and I don't run ANY four-drops.
I completely agree, KotR does overshadow Cavaliers in a WG list. Only thing is that he's not running a WG list; only a mono-W list. And you're also right, knights don't exactly swarm, but a fast board presence is made easier with a very low mana curve (I believe the average card cost was around 2cmc). 28 Creatures is a good number for a sustained onslaught and Vial helps with deployment.
My only concern with Fiendslayer Paladin is that he doesn't have full protection. I'm am assuming Burn-based decks don't pack Pyroclasm and its ilk. I also thought that Knight of the Holy Nimbus needed to be backed up by Suppression Field to be worthwhile.
Burn decks often have Volcanic Fallout in the side-board, Anger of the Gods less often. Still, life-gain seems better than protection.
Nimbus does not shine in the grindy games but he's a beast early and what do you want from a two-drop? Still, I seem to be the only one running him so I'm probably wrong. I'm still waiting for the day I get to play Day of Judgment with Nimbus in play.
I think it would be a tempo loss for me if I cast or vial Fiendslayer Paladin, only to have Volcanic Fallout played soon after. The life gain wouldn't do anything in this scenario.
I don't play tournaments, so I'm not sure how often that would come up.
That sure looks beautiful! I'm also aiming to splash some green, so, what's the general consensus on Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers and Wilt-Leaf Liege?
The general consensus from prior discussions is that Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers is usable and dodges Lightning Bolt, but since it costs 3 mana, it competes with other Knights at the same CMC. If you have room for it, you can try to use it.
Wilt-Leaf Liege is 4 CMC, and depending on your deck build, it may not make the cut. Some builds don't go above 3 CMC, while others think Hero of Bladehold and Elspeth, Knight-Errant are better choices at 4 CMC. However, if you think your meta has discard, particularly Liliana of the Veil, then Wilt-Leaf Liege may be worth including.
I don't see burn sweepers that often. I've seen Pyroclasm used more than anything else. Most players today seem content with spot removal... Just be wary of it in non-aggro decks. According to MTGTop8 Pyroclasm is only used in 3.8% of the common meta decks nowadays. Unlike the lovely Lightning Bolt, now at a whopping 53.1%! That's right, expect to see it in 1 of every 2 games you play.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard WRG Naya Blitz WR Boros Aggro W White Lightning
Modern W Death and Taxes WKnights R Red Deck Wins RG Zoo WG Hatebears WG Aura Hexproof WU Luminarch Ascension WB Tokens WUB Esper Control
'Tact' is the art of making a point without making an enemy. - Sir Isaac Newton
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Greetings everyone. It has been a while. Knights tribal, any tribal for that matter, is often looked down upon by most Magic players. Some characterize it as beginners deck and often times look down. While I will admit this could hold some merit, thinking along this lines is often very shallow and limiting. People should play decks they want to play, not be coerced into playing something they do not want to. It is this obvious sentiment that often escapes so many magic players, even seasoned ones.
Alas, I digress. The decklist I am giving is a list that hopefully many beginning and seasoned players would gravitate around. Is it perfect? Far from it, but that statement goes for most, if not all decks. Please note, this post and my decklist will be extensive. So, if you want the explanation of card choices, see the bottom hafl.
Introduction and Deck-list
I won't lie. I love Knights. Beyond Magic the gathering, there is a sense of wonder. There are chivalrous and most of time, willing to do the right thing. That said, to build a competitive knights deck was a daunting challenge. That said, the first thing was that I needed to change my mindset on approaching the deck. Being biased towards this concept, the goal of creating a "knights" deck would be very limiting. The idea had the potential to blind me and possibly make me overlook or completely ignore card choices. So my thinking towards this concept was simple. Don't build a Knight's deck. Build a good white weenie deck.
This seems very odd, but allow me to explain. Aggro as well all know are decks who utilize creatures to beat down opponents. With White weenie, one aims to cast, cheap, effective creatures to accomplish the above tasks. When someone has that mindset, the choices of what cards to use becomes much easier.
Hey man, it looks like you took a lot of care to write this post so i'll try and give you a thorough response. As a fellow (huge) Bleach fan, I also couldn't settle for anything less.
I wouldn't say magic players look down on tribal in general. Merfolk is one of the strongest decks out there. Fairies is close behind.
Hatebears and zoo are almost tribal in their consistency. Lots of cats, beasts, soldiers and clerics. Those decks are well-respected and well known. Knights is just a modified version that plays more of a midrange game. You appear to have captured this essence in your card rationale.
Based on what you said, it seems like you must have had a run in with someone in a game or someone criticized knights tribal in general. I appreciate the attempt to wax philosophic, but I would disagree in Knights tribal being regarded as a beginner deck and looked down upon. I think it's quite the opposite: knights take a lot of skill to play competitively in a blazing fast meta with an overabundance of well-costed spells and should-be-banned cards. This is especially the case in modern, where Snapcaster Mage, Treasure Cruise, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Scapeshift, Delver of Secrets, Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Liliana of the Veil, and others are allowed to exist. You are using a comparatively less expensive deck in a meta of power cards that prey on fair play itself. What's important is that because we aren't at the top, we can adapt to beat them. And believe me, it's very satisfying to destroy a $600 deck in two rounds. Not to mention everyone who watches your game will be cheering for you, the underdog.
In almost all of my games people either didn't say anything or complimented the deck and applauded me for using something less mainstream. Competitive players know about knight tribal. After I lost to this one guy at modern tournament at my LGS (he was a pro player that has gone to national qualifiers in Canada) I overheard him chatting with his buddy about the match, his familiarity with knight tribal and the tough game he faced. I played another guy during that tourney who ran a retrace-loam list and had never played against knights before. He was sweating buckets and very narrowly beat me after topdecking three goyfs. Lots of compliments on the tribe there too (and those were among my first serious games, before the deck got an overhaul).
I have only had one experience with some jerk, and that was on MTGO. It was a Jund player who probably felt he shouldn't have to toil playing against some peasant deck with his full set of Bob, Lilianna, Goyf, fetches, etc. After I beat him down with a Skyhunter he took about a minute to stare at the battlefield, then said "I can't believe I lost to this *****" and quit. I laughed. I cried. I took a picture of the chat with my phone.
So don't underestimate what knight tribal is capable of! I have had many compliments on its consistency once Light from Within saw play and opponents realized there was nothing they could do. One guy said "knights are still smashing face and seem strong as ever". We would probably disagree on this forum (our tribe hasn't gotten a lot of love from Wizards in quite a while) but that doesn't mean the deck isn't viable.
When I get time this December, maybe in January too, i'm going to enter some of the MTGO Modern Daily tournaments. I'll make it my goal to get this thread re-pinned on MTG Salvation's Modern decklist forum. Anyways, let's take a look at your deck. I put it in proper formatting.
Card choices and explanations: I shall go over all of the card choices. Note some explanations will be more detailed than others. This is due to familarity and I am assuming those who are reading this post have the necessary context.
Creatures
1) Student of Warfare: There is very little explanation needed. While no figure of destiny, the fact it levels to become a 3/3 with first strike is immense. First strike is one of those abilities most players don't take into account. The 4/4 with double strike is nice. Especially, when your board is sweeped, this can make all excess mana you have go to good use.
2) Knight of the White Orchid: A 2/2 with first strike is really good. But the fact this card searches for land(untapped) is really good. Assuming you haven't played a land for turn, this card can single handily double your mana base. And considering the cheap CMC of this deck(2.05 AVG, if anyone was curious), this card is quite useful. This card can be combined with Aether Vial. How? Imagine the scene. You have a vial on two, and you cast an orchid normally. With a second Orchid in hand, you vial it in. Given it's ability checks if the opponent controls more land, you can search up TWO plains and put them on the field.
3) Leonin Skyhunter: Not much to say about this choice. A 2/2 with flying is a solid beater. Evasion is always useful, especially in Modern. Can block flying threats like Celestial Colonade, or that annoying Signal Pest for Affinity. As for why I run four instead of Meadwowgrain that is simple preference. Feel free to change the number, if you so choose.
4) Knight of Meadowgrain: This card is quite powerful. A 2/2 with first strike and lifelink is solid. Gaining extra life is very useful, especially against other aggro decks. This card is also useful for baiting a removal spell, as the opponent will have to deal with other threats. Quite powerful, when combined with Aether Vial as a blocker.
5) Knight Exemplar: There are many things I need to say about this card. Although very powerful, it is in my view very overrated. Let's start with it's positives. Having first strike is very useful, even though a 2/2 for 3 CMC. But what makes Exemplar powerful is her 1+/+1 and indestructibility. This single effect trounces on most other aggro decks. Knowing you can block most threats(without trample) and swing in, without fear of creatures dying is always an added plus. This is especially the case with double exemplar on the field. That said, the negative of this card is plenty. From sacrificing to negative counters and exiling, there are a plethora of ways to deal with this card. Most likely your opponent will be gunning for this card. If it costs more resources to protect this card, just let them die.
This deck was designed to operate with OR WITHOUT exemplar.
6) Wilt Leaf Cavlier: My favorite card in the entire deck and the bread and butter beater. To give some background, I originally ran Honor of the Pure, along with Mirran Crusader. While I enjoyed this build, Honor was too slow and Crusader, while powerful is too vulnerable to simple removal, like lightning bolt. Ironically, it was thanks to a close friend that I found this card. For starters, this card is a 3/4. For experienced players, 4 toughness is the magic number, in that it dodges lightning bolt.
Having a creature dodge bolt is always a plus. But it's second ability vigilance is even more relevant. Being able to swing in for at least 3 damage minimum and be a blocker is very useful against many threats. All in all, this card is my favorite and will continue to remain a favorite.
7) Wilt Leaf Liege: This is another card I shall spend time discussing. Running another lord in knights seems ludicrous. While Knights doesn't have many lord choices, unlike Merfolk, it is possible. As a 4/4 Liege is already powerful. But his buff ability makes this deck an absolute nightmare(get it, 'nightmare'. I know, corny). When considering Cavalier, having a 5/6 makes this deck even more of a hassle to deal with. And finally, liege's second ability is very useful. The fact he is set onto the battlefield via discard is really annoying. This is especially the case against the Junk, or Rock player who Liliana it out of hand.
8) Kinsbaile Cavalier: A very good surprise card. Double strike is especially powerful, for offensive and defensive purposes. The fact Kinsbaile itself has double strike is already powerful. When combined with Aether Vial, this card is a great finisher.
Artifacts and instants
1) Aether Vial: This card is a key cornerstone of our deck. Akin to Mono white hatebears( Death and Taxes) and Merfolk, there is a reason why this card is utilized. Flashing creatures in for blockers or end of turn is quite useful. The mana acceleration behind this card is absolutely nuts, as it leaves mana open to cast other creatures or spells.
2) Brave the Elements: The versatility behind this card is second to none. This card can be used offensively to alpha strike opponents or defensively against spot removal, or blocking. This card can really catch most opponents off guard and remains my favorite noncreature spell. This card is wonderful against pyroclasm and Anger, as protection from red prevents damage.
3) Path to Exile: There is very little I can say about this. In my view, this is the best removal spell in modern. It is no swords to plowshares, but it will get the job done at removing most threats.
Land
1) Cavern of Souls: This is a tribal deck. Given control and combo is the hardest matchup, having creatures coming in without being countered is really nice. The card also fixes out mana, color wise, so as to cast plenty of color intensive spells.
2) Windbrisk Heights: This card is absolutely nuts. While it is a tap land, the fact one can card a card, without playing it's converted mana cost is quite powerful, like Brave the elements for instance. Given the clause states that creatures need to have attacked, you can cast the cards during second main phase.
2) Tectonic Edge: A useful card. It can deal with man lands, as well as destroying key mana bases, such as tron.
Sideboard:
1) Thalia: This card is quite powerful. Although no knight, Thalia's ability makes playing control a living nightmare, along with storm. Her first strike is useful, and given opponents will need to waste removal to get rid of her is critical.
2) Aven Mindcensor: This card is ridiculous on its own. Flash is very useful, but preventing searches can slow down a ton of decks, like Scapeshift, Pod and Tron. Evasion is always useful and given brave the elements can protect this card, it is quite useful.
3) Katak: If Affinity had a kyrptonite, Kataki would be this card. Interestingly enough, Wizards printed this card in response to Affinity. Given the archtype broke standard, I am not surprise. When combined with Aether vial, this card becomes a nasty surprise for Robots, and puts the opponent on the defensive. Most of time the enemy will pray for a galvanic Blast or Whipflare to deal with this enemy.
4) Leyline of Sancity: Our weakest matchup is combo and Affinity. For the former, Leyline provides us with an out against the threat. It also pulls its weight against mill effects and the Rock and Junk with their discard effects.
5) Rest in peace: This card shuts down any graveyard based deck. It is very useful against pod, especially Merlira Pod, as they need the graveyard for their combo to be pulled out.
6) Ghostly Prison: This card helps stymie other aggro decks, like Zoo. But more important, this card halts Splinter Twin, as they cannot fully combo out and kill us.
7) Torpor Orb: This card is again for Splinter Twin, but is also reserved for pod, as Pod tends to run plenty of enter the battlefield effects. Though, this card does hurt Orchid.
Conclusion: This decklist should be taken with a grain of salt,even though I have explained my reasons. One of the great things about this game is experimentation. Continue to innovate and try out new things. It is through trial and error that one can produce something wonderful. This deck took three years to properly test and refine. And even then, I have some brand new ideas for said decklist.
Take care.
It seems you have a good understanding of the function of each card in the deck. You have rounded out the curve and it looks like a solid aggro list. You have also identified the possibility of stacking Knight of the White Orchid's ability twice by playing one normally and vialing one in simultaneously (getting a 2-for-1 land deal). Unfortunately, I don't believe this would work. This ain't no fee simple. The ability will check to see if you have less land than an opponent, and after your first stack trigger resolves the second one will see that you both have the same amount of land and will fizzle. I could be wrong! Maybe someone here can confirm for me.
What distinguishes your deck from most of the lists posted here is your choice to run a full set of Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers, 3x Wilt-Leaf Liege and 2x Kinsbaile Cavalier. I think the Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers is a viable card and a good choice. Same goes for Liege (his anthem is relevant in your deck given your high creature count). [Insert sales pitch for Light from Within and how good it is with the elf knights]. Kinsbaile is a bit of a risky play, more like a bomb that you want to play then swing for the win. Vialing him in to double the attack power of some unblocked creatures is a great finisher. Just don't expect him to stick around on the board for too long with that juicy 4cmc cost and 2 toughness. Windbrisk Heights seems possible in your deck, again given your high creature count and low average CMC cost. Let us know how it works!
You noted in your conclusion that it takes time and lots of trial and error for a knight deck to evolve. It took my knight deck a similar amount of time (about 4 years) to get to where it is. Only thing I would add is it's not just trial and error; it's also trial by fire. [pun intended]
Seems like he would be pretty good with the Indestructible from Knight Exemplar, and the Battlecry pumps you for further attacking.
Ran him for a short while, when I tried to build the deck, back when it was in standard. I'd take a 2-damage first striker any day. We rarely attack with more than two creatures at a time, and this deck's main strength is being able to trade efficiently in creature-based matchups. I could see him in a heavy-combo meta, but otherwise I'd stick with the usual two-drops.
On another note, I dropped 2 matches to splinter-twin last FNM. What is the best sideboard choices for this matchup?
Against Twin, the best cards you could be running (imo) are Suppression Field and Ghostly Prison. SF is easier to resolve, they won't be able to make infinite creatures, and also hinders them in cracking fetches, but it also can be a pain if you're running fetches, equips, or Elspeth. GP will be slightly harder to resolve as it won't come down till T3, but it does prevent them from attacking you for infinity until you can find a Path to Exile (or possibly a Celestial Purge / Disenchant). Keep in mind though with GP, they can still make infinite blockers, so don't suicide your knights into them!
Which one is more effective depends on which version of Twin you're facing. Against the more combo oriented version, Suppression Field is superior as it additionally shuts down Spellskite to a certain extent. Against RUG Twin and Young Pyromancer Twin (the version I personally prefer), Ghostly Prison will be the better choice as it'll also make it harder for Tarmogoyf / elemental tokens to attack you.
However, you must expect that the Twin player has an out to either situation (usually some number of Echoing Truth), and they will cantrip / Dig Through Time crazy fast to find it, so be careful not to leave yourself without a response.
Totally agree with you on the effectiveness of Suppression Field and Ghostly Prison. I probably prefer SF to GP myself since it cancels out so much of the average opponent's strategy, whether its cracking fetchlands or using a creature ability. It can lose its effectiveness if you only draw one and move to a late game, but it's still a viable card most of the time. It's easy enough to build around in a monowhite list, and I don't see why you couldn't incorporate it into the main.
Magicman657, what's your opinion on Resto in a knights list? I'm using two Elspeth in mine and I might switch them out for 1 Resto and 1 Linvala.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard WRG Naya Blitz WR Boros Aggro W White Lightning
Modern W Death and Taxes WKnights R Red Deck Wins RG Zoo WG Hatebears WG Aura Hexproof WU Luminarch Ascension WB Tokens WUB Esper Control
'Tact' is the art of making a point without making an enemy. - Sir Isaac Newton
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
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WRG Naya Blitz
WR Boros Aggro
W White Lightning
Modern
W Death and Taxes
W Knights
R Red Deck Wins
RG Zoo
WG Hatebears
WG Aura Hexproof
WU Luminarch Ascension
WB Tokens
WUB Esper Control
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Coming in tapped: This is a pain, and there will occasionally be the odd game where you either lose a turn or can't execute as much as you would have because this card came in tapped, but most of the time you will be able to play it as your first land without repercussion. The list I use runs only 3 Students, so in absentia of him there is nothing else competing for a turn 1 cast (other than vial). Obviously vial would receive priority and you would play an untapped land instead. Otherwise i've usually encountered it later in the game when I don't need it as much, and as your hand and the field is thinning out its more welcome to draw into this then another non-utility land.
Forbidding Watchtower vs Mutavault: I would use the watchtower in a list that was more midrange or control-focused. A heavy rushdown aggro deck would probably pair better with mutavault. I also slightly prefer the Tower for the fact that it has better survivability, and since knights usually like to get stabilized a bit before they win, you'll have the mana to use a more defensive creature. Since I haven't run mutavault myself I can't speak to how frequently or practical it is to activate it when knight exemplar is in play, but that requires two variables.
WRG Naya Blitz
WR Boros Aggro
W White Lightning
Modern
W Death and Taxes
W Knights
R Red Deck Wins
RG Zoo
WG Hatebears
WG Aura Hexproof
WU Luminarch Ascension
WB Tokens
WUB Esper Control
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
The only concern I would add is that he doesn't replace instant-speed artifact/enchant removal, which you will still need to win your games. He can certainly make a dent against your opponent but even with Vial he usually cant stop same-turn combos. I've vialed him in at instant speed in previous games against twin, and while he does keep their piece locked away for some time they are eventually going to take him out.
WRG Naya Blitz
WR Boros Aggro
W White Lightning
Modern
W Death and Taxes
W Knights
R Red Deck Wins
RG Zoo
WG Hatebears
WG Aura Hexproof
WU Luminarch Ascension
WB Tokens
WUB Esper Control
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
3 Student of Warfare
3 Knight of Meadowgrain
3 Knight of the White Orchid
2 Leonin Skyhunter
4 Knight Exemplar
2 Fiendslayer Paladin
1 Mirran Crusader
2 Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4 Hero of Bladehold
2 Brave the Elements
4 Path to Exile
Artifacts [7]
4 Æther Vial
1 Basilisk Collar
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
Enchantments [3]
3 Light from Within
Land [20]
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Forbidding Watchtower
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
1 Celestial Purge
1 Stony Silence
1 Heliod, God of the Sun
2 Pithing Needle
2 Rest in Peace
2 Day of Judgment
3 Disenchant
3 Kor Firewalker
Some notes:
-- 1 added (11.6% chance) - Helpful to your strategy and serves its purpose when it does appear, but generally not detrimental to your game if it doesn't. Should not be a specific answer to a very specific threat without other similar/versatile cards.
-- 2 added (22.1% chance) - Relevant to your strategy, however multiples generally are not useful and/or you have other options to deal with specific threats. These are great "sidekick" cards to your critical ones.
-- 3 added (31.5% chance) - Extremely relevant to your strategy, it's usefulness is beyond fringe benefits and it's something you hope to see at least once or twice in your games.
-- 4 added (39.9% chance) - Core/Critical component of your deck's function. Your other cards usually will build off this set and it is something you are absolutely counting on appearing.
WRG Naya Blitz
WR Boros Aggro
W White Lightning
Modern
W Death and Taxes
W Knights
R Red Deck Wins
RG Zoo
WG Hatebears
WG Aura Hexproof
WU Luminarch Ascension
WB Tokens
WUB Esper Control
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Knights are a blast to play in Modern. It's very rewarding to defeat a $400+ competitive deck with your own deck that's not only a rogue type, but also plays fairly. I find combat abilities like first strike, flying and protection to be overlooked quite often in the competitive meta these days. You would be surprised how easily you can turn the tables by turtling into a strong build when on the ropes, or pressuring the hell out of your opponent's flimsy creatures with your own.
You're looking at a bit of a tougher and longer game with a control-esque focus to your knights list. You won't be able to castrate your opponent like you can with a UWx or GB list, however you can seriously impair them enough until you land your alpha strike. Here are my suggestions:
SPELLS
CREATURES
LANDS
SIDEBOARD
Below, I have included the deck I use on MTGO. It's not a finished product by any means and it's probably due for an overhaul, but it's the suppression list i've used for some time. Notice the Human creature type and synergy with Champion of the Parish. The lack of card draw really, really hurts though. I have constantly been swapping 2x Infiltration Lens in and out of the deck, but I never seem to draw it in my games!
4x Champion of the Parish
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Accorder Paladin
4x Knight of the Holy Nimbus
3x Knight of the White Orchid
4x Knight Exemplar
2x Fiendslayer Paladin
1x Silverblade Paladin
4x Hero of Bladehold
4x Path to Exile
3x Brave the Elements
3x Honor of the Pure
3x Suppression Field
Land [20]
1x Eiganjo Castle
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Flagstones of Trokair
11x Plains
1x Celestial Purge
1x Journey to Nowhere
1x Mirran Crusader
1x Suppression Field
1x Oblivion Ring
2x Disenchant
2x Rest in Peace
2x Day of Judgment
4x Kor Firewalker
WRG Naya Blitz
WR Boros Aggro
W White Lightning
Modern
W Death and Taxes
W Knights
R Red Deck Wins
RG Zoo
WG Hatebears
WG Aura Hexproof
WU Luminarch Ascension
WB Tokens
WUB Esper Control
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
In 90% of cases this card would probably read as putting a +1/+1 counter on a creature and then either make your creature "fight" another one or stop a burn spell.
WRG Naya Blitz
WR Boros Aggro
W White Lightning
Modern
W Death and Taxes
W Knights
R Red Deck Wins
RG Zoo
WG Hatebears
WG Aura Hexproof
WU Luminarch Ascension
WB Tokens
WUB Esper Control
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
WRG Naya Blitz
WR Boros Aggro
W White Lightning
Modern
W Death and Taxes
W Knights
R Red Deck Wins
RG Zoo
WG Hatebears
WG Aura Hexproof
WU Luminarch Ascension
WB Tokens
WUB Esper Control
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
UR Delver: Kor Firewalker, Rest in Peace/Relic of Progenitus, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, any bolt proof creatures. Given the number of decks using red you have included so far, I would consider adding a single Celestial Purge, and maybe a Mark of Asylum.
Twin: Kor Firewalker, Disenchant, Pithing Needle, Suppression Field, Torpor Orb, Hushwing Gryff, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Celestial Purge. You gotta totally change up your game in a twin match - it becomes more about you controlling the board until they run out of steam (and you have answers in hand ready for the [next] Twin drop while you apply pressure).
UWR Control: (Ensure you have Aether Vial in your main) Kor Firewalker, Rest in Peace, Sword of Fire and Ice, Nevermore (stop snapcaster) ~Pithing Needle (for Celestial Colonnade), any bulky creatures. You need creatures with staying power (bolt proof, i.e. Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers, Fiendslayer Paladin, Brimaz, maybe even Heliod, etc). If you can get a Sword on a creature, though, you will probably have a chance. This will be a hard game no matter what happens. I like Light from Within here - it breaks their game completely.
Storm: **Rest in Peace AND Kor Firewalker (you need to get these out in the first couple turns or its GG). Not much else you can offer will break them, maybe Chalice of the Void, Nevermore, Sword of Fire and Ice, etc.
**edit** Completely forgot to mention Ethersworn Canonist - obviously great against storm and decent against UR decks.
BW Tron: To be honest I can't recall if i've played against BW Tron. Maybe once or twice? Stony Silence, Disenchant and Suppression Field (suppression if you are doing an aggro deck) are your best friends here... Also Pithing Needle and Ghost Quarter. Maybe Sword of Light and Shadow?
RG Tron: As for RG Tron, this easily will be your hardest match. Constant sweepers and big monsters in a control deck. It's an antithesis to a knights deck. Pray that you don't have this match. Otherwise, the cards you would want (for all tron decks generally) are: **Stony Silence,** **Kor Firewalker,** **Disenchant,** Suppression Field, **Pithing Needle,** Oblivion Ring, Wrath of God, Nevermore, Mark of Asylum, Ghost Quarter.. all of these are viable. You want to get your guys out of Pyroclasm range, and possible Anger of the Gods range too. Again, this is another upside for Light from Within. Be prepared for ways to deal with lots of Wurmcoil Engine, Oblivion Stone and Karn Liberated, and possiblly expect Spellskite and Stormbreath Dragon in round 2! Get those Pithing Needles down targeting Oblivion Stone by priority, followed by Karn, ASAP!
You can sometimes gang up with first strikers to defend against a wurmcoil (stop from attacking), and Basilisk Collar is amazing here (with first strike). Use of flyers, i.e. Leonin Skyhunter are great in these gridlocks, especially for Sword connections.
WRG Naya Blitz
WR Boros Aggro
W White Lightning
Modern
W Death and Taxes
W Knights
R Red Deck Wins
RG Zoo
WG Hatebears
WG Aura Hexproof
WU Luminarch Ascension
WB Tokens
WUB Esper Control
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
I have a few questions/suggestions for your deck:
1. How has Bladed Bracers worked for you? It seems largely overlooked but would work well here as an enabler for O-Naginata. Too bad it doesn't put your creatures out of bolt-range.
--
2. Do you find Student to be a little mana-intensive in this [puresteel] deck? It seems you will almost always have something to play instead of leveling him. With 4 Students AND 4 Caverns, there is also a bit of a level-up liability IMO.
--
3. I would recommend subbing out 2 Crusaders for 2 Fiendslayer Paladin. UR may be dented a bit with Treasure Cruise and Dig through Time being banned, but Lightning Bolt is still the most-played spell in modern.
--
4. I know you are thinking of cutting Knight of the White Orchid. My advice: don't. You may not have had a game during these matches were his ability triggered, but you WILL have later matches where you pray to draw him or drop him on T2-T3 for that extra land to set you ahead. This is not to mention the early game ramp combo of Path + Orchid.
--
5. Don't use Stony Silence in your SB. It neuters half of your deck. Instead, load up on Disenchant and run 4. You won't regret doing this. Not only does it help solve affinity matches but it gives you greater odds against combo and control decks. It is very reliable spot removal, and relevant in probably 50-70% of all games you play.
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6. Finally, if you are having trouble targeting your creatures with equipment (i.e. bolt), consider loading up on creatures with colour protection or bolt/destroy resilience. Fiendslayer Paladin and Knight of the Holy Nimbus are both humans, while Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers (or Brimaz, King of Oreskos if you have the funds) is just a solid creature.
Good call on taking out Godsend. It's cool as hell but far too cumbersome for any sort of competitive play. I think another Basilisk Collar would be a good choice. OHKOing anything your opponent throws at you with first strike + deathtouch is just too good to pass up.
WRG Naya Blitz
WR Boros Aggro
W White Lightning
Modern
W Death and Taxes
W Knights
R Red Deck Wins
RG Zoo
WG Hatebears
WG Aura Hexproof
WU Luminarch Ascension
WB Tokens
WUB Esper Control
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Disenchant - classic removal and still as reliable as ever. It has saved me countless times. I now run 3 at any given time (and usually keep one Leonin Relic-Warder in the main). I find this usually provides the right number I am after. If you can run Sundering Growth even better, but I wouldn't count on it if you are using Cavern.
Pithing Needle - you're already using it, so hats off right there. Remember it can name planeswalkers, combo pieces, artifacts, etc. When facing twin, remember not to name Splinter Twin itself but instead its targets.
Celestial Purge - I run one of these in the side. I always seem to find games where I can side it in. It even takes out Siege Rhino. So many great permanents that have a red or black splash these days.
Rest in Peace - Its purpose is removing the concept of a graveyard from the game. Cards are simply gone, and graveyard/death triggers don't active. This is the best defense against the Delve mechanic and it hits storm + loam pretty good too. With Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time finally banned, though, Relic of Progenitus may be the more economical card for dealing with Snapcaster.
Spellskite - As pzbw7z already mentioned, this is a great all-around card. Stops numerous combo engines.
You already seem aware of other anti-top tier cards (Kataki, Canonist, etc..)
Some other considerations:
Nevermore - Slow, but it obviously works. Colours black and red have literally 0 response to deal with enchantments.
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben - You need to run at least 3. She is most relevant if you are pushing for an aggro win.
Surgical Extraction - Obviously is an anti-combo card, but you have the added challenge of getting a combo piece into the grave first. More relevant with discard to help you out.
WRG Naya Blitz
WR Boros Aggro
W White Lightning
Modern
W Death and Taxes
W Knights
R Red Deck Wins
RG Zoo
WG Hatebears
WG Aura Hexproof
WU Luminarch Ascension
WB Tokens
WUB Esper Control
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
My suggestion is to try cutting the Hierarchs and instead running 2 Pridemage, and 1 Knight of the White Orchid. You may even be able to swing 20 land and run 2 Orchid, although this approach is a little more ambitious.
WRG Naya Blitz
WR Boros Aggro
W White Lightning
Modern
W Death and Taxes
W Knights
R Red Deck Wins
RG Zoo
WG Hatebears
WG Aura Hexproof
WU Luminarch Ascension
WB Tokens
WUB Esper Control
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
You're right! It's a card you can very likely anticipate in a R/G Tron list. I have pretty well seen exclusively U Tron lists lately so maybe that's why I forgot to mention. I can't say that i've seen Volcanic Fallout in any burn list i've played against, though. It seems to me that most of them run enough creatures that they wouldn't want to risk hurting their offensive line. I am sure burn decks do run it; I just haven't seen it. And you're right, Jund usually packs a pyroclasm/anger of the gods singleton in the SB. That's another deck I don't bump into very often anymore.
I completely agree, KotR does overshadow Cavaliers in a WG list. Only thing is that he's not running a WG list; only a mono-W list. And you're also right, knights don't exactly swarm, but a fast board presence is made easier with a very low mana curve (I believe the average card cost was around 2cmc). 28 Creatures is a good number for a sustained onslaught and Vial helps with deployment.
WRG Naya Blitz
WR Boros Aggro
W White Lightning
Modern
W Death and Taxes
W Knights
R Red Deck Wins
RG Zoo
WG Hatebears
WG Aura Hexproof
WU Luminarch Ascension
WB Tokens
WUB Esper Control
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
WRG Naya Blitz
WR Boros Aggro
W White Lightning
Modern
W Death and Taxes
W Knights
R Red Deck Wins
RG Zoo
WG Hatebears
WG Aura Hexproof
WU Luminarch Ascension
WB Tokens
WUB Esper Control
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
I wouldn't say magic players look down on tribal in general. Merfolk is one of the strongest decks out there. Fairies is close behind.
Hatebears and zoo are almost tribal in their consistency. Lots of cats, beasts, soldiers and clerics. Those decks are well-respected and well known. Knights is just a modified version that plays more of a midrange game. You appear to have captured this essence in your card rationale.
Based on what you said, it seems like you must have had a run in with someone in a game or someone criticized knights tribal in general. I appreciate the attempt to wax philosophic, but I would disagree in Knights tribal being regarded as a beginner deck and looked down upon. I think it's quite the opposite: knights take a lot of skill to play competitively in a blazing fast meta with an overabundance of well-costed spells and should-be-banned cards. This is especially the case in modern, where Snapcaster Mage, Treasure Cruise, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Scapeshift, Delver of Secrets, Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Liliana of the Veil, and others are allowed to exist. You are using a comparatively less expensive deck in a meta of power cards that prey on fair play itself. What's important is that because we aren't at the top, we can adapt to beat them. And believe me, it's very satisfying to destroy a $600 deck in two rounds. Not to mention everyone who watches your game will be cheering for you, the underdog.
In almost all of my games people either didn't say anything or complimented the deck and applauded me for using something less mainstream. Competitive players know about knight tribal. After I lost to this one guy at modern tournament at my LGS (he was a pro player that has gone to national qualifiers in Canada) I overheard him chatting with his buddy about the match, his familiarity with knight tribal and the tough game he faced. I played another guy during that tourney who ran a retrace-loam list and had never played against knights before. He was sweating buckets and very narrowly beat me after topdecking three goyfs. Lots of compliments on the tribe there too (and those were among my first serious games, before the deck got an overhaul).
I have only had one experience with some jerk, and that was on MTGO. It was a Jund player who probably felt he shouldn't have to toil playing against some peasant deck with his full set of Bob, Lilianna, Goyf, fetches, etc. After I beat him down with a Skyhunter he took about a minute to stare at the battlefield, then said "I can't believe I lost to this *****" and quit. I laughed. I cried. I took a picture of the chat with my phone.
So don't underestimate what knight tribal is capable of! I have had many compliments on its consistency once Light from Within saw play and opponents realized there was nothing they could do. One guy said "knights are still smashing face and seem strong as ever". We would probably disagree on this forum (our tribe hasn't gotten a lot of love from Wizards in quite a while) but that doesn't mean the deck isn't viable.
When I get time this December, maybe in January too, i'm going to enter some of the MTGO Modern Daily tournaments. I'll make it my goal to get this thread re-pinned on MTG Salvation's Modern decklist forum.
It seems you have a good understanding of the function of each card in the deck. You have rounded out the curve and it looks like a solid aggro list. You have also identified the possibility of stacking Knight of the White Orchid's ability twice by playing one normally and vialing one in simultaneously (getting a 2-for-1 land deal). Unfortunately, I don't believe this would work. This ain't no fee simple. The ability will check to see if you have less land than an opponent, and after your first stack trigger resolves the second one will see that you both have the same amount of land and will fizzle. I could be wrong! Maybe someone here can confirm for me.
What distinguishes your deck from most of the lists posted here is your choice to run a full set of Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers, 3x Wilt-Leaf Liege and 2x Kinsbaile Cavalier. I think the Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers is a viable card and a good choice. Same goes for Liege (his anthem is relevant in your deck given your high creature count). [Insert sales pitch for Light from Within and how good it is with the elf knights]. Kinsbaile is a bit of a risky play, more like a bomb that you want to play then swing for the win. Vialing him in to double the attack power of some unblocked creatures is a great finisher. Just don't expect him to stick around on the board for too long with that juicy 4cmc cost and 2 toughness. Windbrisk Heights seems possible in your deck, again given your high creature count and low average CMC cost. Let us know how it works!
You noted in your conclusion that it takes time and lots of trial and error for a knight deck to evolve. It took my knight deck a similar amount of time (about 4 years) to get to where it is. Only thing I would add is it's not just trial and error; it's also trial by fire. [pun intended]
WRG Naya Blitz
WR Boros Aggro
W White Lightning
Modern
W Death and Taxes
W Knights
R Red Deck Wins
RG Zoo
WG Hatebears
WG Aura Hexproof
WU Luminarch Ascension
WB Tokens
WUB Esper Control
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Magicman657, what's your opinion on Resto in a knights list? I'm using two Elspeth in mine and I might switch them out for 1 Resto and 1 Linvala.
WRG Naya Blitz
WR Boros Aggro
W White Lightning
Modern
W Death and Taxes
W Knights
R Red Deck Wins
RG Zoo
WG Hatebears
WG Aura Hexproof
WU Luminarch Ascension
WB Tokens
WUB Esper Control
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War