I'm looking at a lot of these lists here, and we are laughably weak to Treasure Cruise right now. Anyone not using 4 Surgical Extraction is asking to be the victim of a turn 2 or turn 3 Ancestral Recall, and even those SEs probably aren't enough. Normally, I'd suggest that we use Thoughtseize as our secondary measure against TC, but that seems like a bad idea in a deck that already has lifegain and interaction problems against aggro. That's bad when Delver/Burn/Affinity make up about 28% of paper and 40% of MTGO. We can't suffer from life loss to fetchlands, shocklands, Extraction, AND Thoughtseize. We might as well just forfeit game 1 on the spot.
Relic might be an option in another deck, but that's not going to cut it here. We just fill up their yard too quickly. Duress isn't bad, especially paired with Extraction, and it's not even that terrible in this metagame. Most cards in Delver/Burn are noncreature spells anyway, so at least it's not entirely irrelevant. We could also go the countermagic route, but I really don't think that matches the rest of the game plan. We do not want to avoid milling an opponent for turns 2 AND 3 just because we need to hold Leak mana. That's going to result in a game loss. Duress at least synergizes with Extraction and gives us more turn 1 plays.
What about Appetite for Brains in SB as 1 of ?! Sure, exile from hand isn't that great when you also want Extraction shenanigans, but it works against Treasure Cruise and can be of help in Tron matches as well.
I was a defender of Rest In Peace, it's the absolute grave hate indeed. Problem is: as a permanent, it's very fragile in a bunch of matches we would need it the most. It's frustrating to shut off our own Visions and Extractions while not hitting anything important (an Eldrazi in Tron matches for example) and then get it removed without actually having the effect you aimed for.
With Spellbomb (as well as Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus), you can keep your Extractions and Visions, and once it's a do or die situation you simply crack it. Of course it can be unreliable if we couldn't exile all the troublesome cards, but then you can always cast another one - while they also replace themselves (Spellbomb and Relic) which makes the possibility of topdecking a second one even if you don't need it anymore slightly better than multiple RiP's.
Back then when DRS reigned I used to play RiP more because it completely shuts it and Goyf in Junk/Jund/Rock MUs, but now I'm even considering replace Spellbomb with Ravenous Trap. The chances of being countered are low, while ignores permanent removal which every now and then can be a problem (O-Ring/Stone, Abrupt Decay, Pulse, so on ..)
I play against midrange matches just as I'd play aggro ones, single difference is that Crypt Incursions doesn't work as well, but also as we mill their library we have more chances of let them out of wincons too.
Darkness and Path to Exile works better then Incursion, and against Junk/Jund midrange Bridge is another better option. Particularly against UWr which runs Geist of Saint Traft, other hexproofers and 2 for 1 creatures (Blade Splicer, Resto Angel) backed up by hard and soft counters, I board in my singleton Verdict.
Since even the midrange lists still plays Lightning Helix/Bolt, I like to board in my Leyline of Sanctity too (usually in place of the Crabs to make their burn spells completely useless from G2 and on).
My current SB (I play Esper):
01 Ensnaring Bridge (general aggro hate, a bit weaker against Affinity's Signal Pest, UWr's Geist of Saint Traft and weenie lists)
02 Pithing Needle (shuts off troublesome lands, PWs and everything else - mostly boarded in against Affinity, Twin and Tron)
03 Nihill Spellbomb (grave hate which works better with Visions and Extraction)
02 Stony Silence (Affinity and Tron hate, I'm considering a split between it and Hurkyl's Recall)
03 Leyline of Sanctity (personal tech, shuts Burn and all Lightning Bolt lists as well as Thoughtseize/IoK lists)
02 Leave No Trace (enchant hate, board in against Boggle and potential Leyline G2)
01 Supreme Verdict (general aggro hate, specially needed against hexproofers and weenie lists)
01 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver (only control hate SB card, maybe a bit overkill I'm considering drop it for an additional Needle or Verdict)
Can't agree here. I think it's much easier to get BB than WW, to get WW you would have to fetch for to many W lands early, what isn't the best thing to do. + Damnation is better vs Robots that are much more played deck then Fish right now. Simply because if they would have ravager + jar, you are still dead cos verdict got no influence. Also, many decks plays Thruns in SB, so in my opinion Damnation is better to play with in esper mill.
It's a matter of deckbuilding actually. Lists focused in more powerful Crab plays which usually run 6~8 fetches shouldn't have many problems assembling WW up to 4th turn. It's not like we don't run anything else for aggro matches that we'd need a strictly 4th turn board wipe as well, so I'd not pick Damnation for mana base issues alone.
Most lists already run straight artifact hate in SB alongside a generic board wipe to catch aggro lists as a whole. UBx usually runs 2~ copies of Hurkyl's Recall, while Esper has Stony Silence option as well only for Affinity's sake. So, as far as Damnation can be situationally better than Verdict in Affinity MU, I'd still favor Verdict over Damnation for the sake of other aggro/midrange matches.
Unless Affinity is ridiculously dominant in your meta, but then instead of general aggro hate (Damnation, Verdict, spot removal) I'd board in other specific hate (more copies of Recall/Silence, Needle, Chalice and so on).
It's been a while since I last confronted a Thrun, either IRL or online. My meta has much more UWr midranges where Verdict is better simply because of GoST backed up by Pierce, Remand and Command.
If you are going all the way to Esper, maybe Supreme Verdict is slightly better than Damnation, specially against Merfolk and other blue aggro/midrange.
Also, 4x Crypt Incursion in the 75's are simply too much, since they won't help in multiples have you ever considered split with Ensnaring Bridge ? I could see 2x Incursion alongside a singleton Bridge.
There are better enchant hate in W as well, I use Leave no Trace which wipes multiples Leylines and many enchants from Boggles at once at 2nd turn, but there are even 3cmc W spells which wipe all the enchants (forgot the name, sorry).
Ravenous Trap seems like good grave hate since it can't be counter-hated with permanent removal, and soft counters are weak against it as well. It's a nice unusual route (people use them mostly due to Trapmaker's package only).
This list which made 11th place seems overall very close to what we're tuning here in our thread, just seemed odd the full set of Crypt Incursion while not running a single Darkness. I guess he relies in Augur of Bolas to prevent topdecking unwished Incursions while being a decent blocker himself, in opposition to Snapcaster which would works better with Darkness package but is subpar with it's flash besides this synergy with fog effects.
@Gemini Spartan: You did great, man ! The Merfolk MU for me is the worst aggro MU ever, their clock aren't as fast as Affinity or Infect, and their beaters aren't as resilient as in Bogle, but they can improve their game plan just fine while keeping answers for our threats and removal/fog/sweeper, this way even if we start with some decent hand the chances of winning are less than against Affinity/Infect/Bogle, because a single counter in our hard cast Trap or in a critical Darkness/Incursion is our doom. That's why I have Ensnaring Bridge and Verdict in my SB: if hits the board, Bridge can shut their 5/5's fishes for good and they'll most likely not have any answer for this once it lands. Verdict effectively reset their game, Thassa still lives but will most likely stay as an enchant and we can focus Path solely to her anyway.
Playing UBx is really hard against Moon effects, and I always tend to fetch for shocklands instead of basics .. Even on g2, because then I try to assemble W mana for answering Blood Moon with a Leave No Trace, but I guess the most safe route is to assemble our basics in this situations right ?
@rick90: If I was you I'd try to put some other fetch instead of Arid Mesa - adding 1 more Flats and Tarn would do. Also, I cut my singleton Godless Shrine for one more Fountain, this way I can assemble all my W sources with any fetch that I play (in this matter the G splash would be better, since we could run both Misty Rainforest and Verdant Catacombs and freely pick among Overgrown Tomb and Breeding Pool). 4 fetches is a good start and I'd say it's enough for a splash, but I like to maximize the chances of t1 Crab t2 fetch and so on, while also fixing the mana base with a full set of 8 fetches. Sometimes it hurts, but the possibility of winning mostly by your Crabs and lands alone is tempting.
@rick90: Since I rely a bit more on white in my SB to begin with, I run a bit more of W sources (3 shocks tutorable by the 8 fetches), but sometimes it's really hard to assemble the WW for a Verdict. However, against Fish and all midranges with U you'll like to have an uncounterable board wipe, if you already run W anyway it's a good option.
Black Sun's Zenith is another good option if you're more UB straight. However, with the rise of KotR and the always present Goyf it can be really subpar.
About the inclusion of IoK, since it counts as proactive answer for a larger scope of threats I think it's reasonable to cut some Darkness for it's sake, but mill lists are too much tight for us to drop ours cantrips .. I'll think about something.
Man, you should try at least a couple of Darkness MD. They work even better with a Snapcaster package !
@Gemini Spartan: If I remember correctly, you run only 3 MD Extractions, that's right ? How it goes for you man ? I always thought of Surgical Extraction as a 4of must in our lists, but trying to find room for 3x IoK I can't think about anything besides cutting 1x Darkness, 1x Extraction and 1x land.
What about Appetite for Brains in SB as 1 of ?! Sure, exile from hand isn't that great when you also want Extraction shenanigans, but it works against Treasure Cruise and can be of help in Tron matches as well.
04 Scalding Tarn
04 Misty Rainforest
04 Ghost Quarter
06 Island
01 Shelldock Isle
01 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
04 Hedron Crab
03 Jace's Archivist
Other Permanent (11)
04 Jace's Erasure
04 Jace Beleren
03 Howling Mine
04 Sanity Grinding
04 Archive Trap
04 Mind Sculpt
04 Thought Scour
04 Visions of Beyond
02 Twincast
Other card's which could suit well due to Grinding's synergy would be Blue Sun's Zenith, Cryptal Command .. so on.
With Spellbomb (as well as Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus), you can keep your Extractions and Visions, and once it's a do or die situation you simply crack it. Of course it can be unreliable if we couldn't exile all the troublesome cards, but then you can always cast another one - while they also replace themselves (Spellbomb and Relic) which makes the possibility of topdecking a second one even if you don't need it anymore slightly better than multiple RiP's.
Back then when DRS reigned I used to play RiP more because it completely shuts it and Goyf in Junk/Jund/Rock MUs, but now I'm even considering replace Spellbomb with Ravenous Trap. The chances of being countered are low, while ignores permanent removal which every now and then can be a problem (O-Ring/Stone, Abrupt Decay, Pulse, so on ..)
Darkness and Path to Exile works better then Incursion, and against Junk/Jund midrange Bridge is another better option. Particularly against UWr which runs Geist of Saint Traft, other hexproofers and 2 for 1 creatures (Blade Splicer, Resto Angel) backed up by hard and soft counters, I board in my singleton Verdict.
Since even the midrange lists still plays Lightning Helix/Bolt, I like to board in my Leyline of Sanctity too (usually in place of the Crabs to make their burn spells completely useless from G2 and on).
My current SB (I play Esper):
01 Ensnaring Bridge (general aggro hate, a bit weaker against Affinity's Signal Pest, UWr's Geist of Saint Traft and weenie lists)
02 Pithing Needle (shuts off troublesome lands, PWs and everything else - mostly boarded in against Affinity, Twin and Tron)
03 Nihill Spellbomb (grave hate which works better with Visions and Extraction)
02 Stony Silence (Affinity and Tron hate, I'm considering a split between it and Hurkyl's Recall)
03 Leyline of Sanctity (personal tech, shuts Burn and all Lightning Bolt lists as well as Thoughtseize/IoK lists)
02 Leave No Trace (enchant hate, board in against Boggle and potential Leyline G2)
01 Supreme Verdict (general aggro hate, specially needed against hexproofers and weenie lists)
01 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver (only control hate SB card, maybe a bit overkill I'm considering drop it for an additional Needle or Verdict)
It's a matter of deckbuilding actually. Lists focused in more powerful Crab plays which usually run 6~8 fetches shouldn't have many problems assembling WW up to 4th turn. It's not like we don't run anything else for aggro matches that we'd need a strictly 4th turn board wipe as well, so I'd not pick Damnation for mana base issues alone.
Most lists already run straight artifact hate in SB alongside a generic board wipe to catch aggro lists as a whole. UBx usually runs 2~ copies of Hurkyl's Recall, while Esper has Stony Silence option as well only for Affinity's sake. So, as far as Damnation can be situationally better than Verdict in Affinity MU, I'd still favor Verdict over Damnation for the sake of other aggro/midrange matches.
Unless Affinity is ridiculously dominant in your meta, but then instead of general aggro hate (Damnation, Verdict, spot removal) I'd board in other specific hate (more copies of Recall/Silence, Needle, Chalice and so on).
It's been a while since I last confronted a Thrun, either IRL or online. My meta has much more UWr midranges where Verdict is better simply because of GoST backed up by Pierce, Remand and Command.
Also, 4x Crypt Incursion in the 75's are simply too much, since they won't help in multiples have you ever considered split with Ensnaring Bridge ? I could see 2x Incursion alongside a singleton Bridge.
There are better enchant hate in W as well, I use Leave no Trace which wipes multiples Leylines and many enchants from Boggles at once at 2nd turn, but there are even 3cmc W spells which wipe all the enchants (forgot the name, sorry).
Ravenous Trap seems like good grave hate since it can't be counter-hated with permanent removal, and soft counters are weak against it as well. It's a nice unusual route (people use them mostly due to Trapmaker's package only).
Playing UBx is really hard against Moon effects, and I always tend to fetch for shocklands instead of basics .. Even on g2, because then I try to assemble W mana for answering Blood Moon with a Leave No Trace, but I guess the most safe route is to assemble our basics in this situations right ?
@rick90: If I was you I'd try to put some other fetch instead of Arid Mesa - adding 1 more Flats and Tarn would do. Also, I cut my singleton Godless Shrine for one more Fountain, this way I can assemble all my W sources with any fetch that I play (in this matter the G splash would be better, since we could run both Misty Rainforest and Verdant Catacombs and freely pick among Overgrown Tomb and Breeding Pool). 4 fetches is a good start and I'd say it's enough for a splash, but I like to maximize the chances of t1 Crab t2 fetch and so on, while also fixing the mana base with a full set of 8 fetches. Sometimes it hurts, but the possibility of winning mostly by your Crabs and lands alone is tempting.
Black Sun's Zenith is another good option if you're more UB straight. However, with the rise of KotR and the always present Goyf it can be really subpar.
About the inclusion of IoK, since it counts as proactive answer for a larger scope of threats I think it's reasonable to cut some Darkness for it's sake, but mill lists are too much tight for us to drop ours cantrips .. I'll think about something.
Man, you should try at least a couple of Darkness MD. They work even better with a Snapcaster package !
@Gemini Spartan: If I remember correctly, you run only 3 MD Extractions, that's right ? How it goes for you man ? I always thought of Surgical Extraction as a 4of must in our lists, but trying to find room for 3x IoK I can't think about anything besides cutting 1x Darkness, 1x Extraction and 1x land.
04 Marsh Flats
02 Watery Grave
02 Hallowed Fountain
01 Godless Shrine
02 Island
01 Swamp
02 Darkslick Shores
01 Shelldock Isle
01 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
02 Ghost Quarter
04 Hedron Crab
04 Archive Trap
04 Thought Scour
04 Glimpse the Unthinkable
04 Breaking // Entering
03 Mind Funeral
04 Surgical Extraction
04 Darkness
02 Path to Exile
01 Crypt Incursion
04 Visions of Beyond
02 Pithing Needle
01 Ensnaring Bridge
03 Leyline of Sanctity
02 Stony Silence
01 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
02 Leave No Trace
01 Supreme Verdict
I'm willing to run 3x Inquisition of Koziled MD, but don't know where to find room for it .. any suggestion ?