Will add Rain of Tears when I update again. I forgot to add it. I haven't updated it with the new suggestions and all. I've seen it being mentioned. Will need to update it again soon with more suggestions and lists.
NessOnett: I like the direction your deck is going, with an all-in LD plan. I'm sure we can improve on it than it is currently so good luck with your testing and all. I haven't had much luck with the all-in approach but glad you're able to do well.
And yeah, Smallpox is really great in the format. Especially if you can take advantage of it. Been trying to do so. I haven't had great results with my current list of semi-LD in the past weeks though. Lots of 1-2 finishes and even a 0-3.
Most matchups are pretty decent. Pretty much against every deck I played, I manage to take control but couldn't finish up the game before they stabilised and started playing more lands.
Inquisition of Kozilek has been way better than Blackmail. Though it could get lands sometimes, most times there are other relevant things to remove. And Inquisiton reveals the whole hand rather than just 3 cards.
Games only go "well" when you have some LD in your starting hand. Especially Smallpox. Without it, most times I won't be able to slow them down enough to take over with the walkers. And at some point, it will be a really long grind till I manage to draw Blood Baron or Batterskull. In some games, by the time that happens, they would have had enough time to recover from all the LD. Might have to take this in another direction as Planeswalkers seem too slow. Many decks can effectively recover after some LD.
Young Pyromancer might just be the card we need. Getting one to stick will mean that each LD spell would at least net you a creature. I will have to look into this.
I don't remember exactly what happened, but he had 2 Confidants on board at one time and that totally got me outplayed. The current deck build lacks card draw/advantage. I've been trying a single Mikokoro, Center of the Sea for draw but most times I hate seeing it in my opening hand. Colours are tight.
I haven't been too sure about Leyline of Sanctity since I haven't played against burn. But with Helix, Ajani, removals and discards, I would think that burn should be a decent match up. Discard hurts, but it's not worth the slot to play 4. For example, I'd rather let them discard a smallpox than have a Leyline (or draw into one) to stop it.
Usually my hand would be empty by turn 5 or 6? Unless I have a ton of lands and nothing to play or a couple of Planeswalkers. I've thought about Ensnaring Bridge a lot but I feel that it will slow down my own clock to finish off the opponent before he recovers from the LD. Which is also why I play burns over Wraths main. I opted to play Elspeth, Knight-Errant over it to quicken the clock when I have control. Can't have both Elspeth and Bridge in the same deck.
Updated the opening post with more stuff. Hope it looks better now.
@kylar: NessOnett is right, that deck has flaws... too many. We're trying to build something competitive here.
@NessOnett: Your Ponza deck looks good. How has the Phoenix and Koth been performing? They don't seem that necessary and helping the game plan. Was it always worth it to have the 4 Spirit Guides and Crack the Earth? I mean, how often have you gotten those 2 in your starting hand AND playing second (for maximum timewalk)? However, the Guides would help with getting an early Trinisphere too so that's good. Will give this a try once I can figure out what to change for it. Looks good.
Been getting some testing done with this list below.
Been trying a different approach, dropping blue altogether and trying to abuse Smallpox. Wonderful card, coupled with some discard. Most recent results was from an FNM, with a 2-1 score.
Deck simply plays to clear some lands and beatdown once you're in control with some tokens.
Game 1: Storm (2-1 Win)
Relic plays a big part in this and the LD hurts storm a ton before they can go off. A Smallpox after they've dropped Goblin Electromancer is back-breaking.
Game 2: Jund (0-2 Loss)
Wrath and Relic comes in these games. Just keep that Dark Confidant out of the way. Goyf and Ooze can be easily dealt with. In one game, I managed to keep him on 1 land till turn 4 or 5 but didn't have enough removal for Confidant and he just managed to get back the lands slowly. Confidant has to go. The advantage is insane.
Game 3: UWR (2-0 Win)
Felt like a pretty easy win. Just kept him off the red/blue mana and played around the counters. Save up the burn to finish him off.
Recent testing results shows some promises so I will be testing this further, tweaking some cards here and there. Have found that Inquisiton of Kozilek might be a better choice or even Thoughtseize over Blackmail to scan their hand and know what lands to remove but Blackmail has managed to keep them off lands at some point as well. Maybe a mix. Blackmail is a way better topdeck.
Flagstones can now provide 2 white mana instead of 1. It's even better now. And it's a great Boom target as well.
Tap the one in play for w, play the new one and sacrifice the one in play, tap the new one for w. Compared to previously, tap the one in play and when the second comes into play, they both go in the yard.
Glad to see some people still interested in this. I've still been working on a couple of different lists like these all the while. And there have been other ideas and cards found and all of that so I will update the opening post soon with major updates and test findings over the last few months.
Most recent list posted by Infowarrior is something similar to what I've been testing so stay tuned! Will address the recent posts with questions when I can while I'm at it.
I really don't think double white is hard by turn 4, especially since 18/23 lands can get white. Wrath seems good, but maybe too slow. This is something I have considered, but I figure the Bolts and Helixs can take care of early game threats, where Wrath can reset the board regardless of how big a Goyf or anything else is. Etched Champion is another big reason why I would use Wrath over burn based sweepers.
Delver and Figure went in as I was pondering what other finishers besides Frost Titan I could run. Nothing else really jumped at me, but I am open to other suggestions. Steppe Lynx could be fun if I dropped a second Flagstones. I run enough fetches to make them worth while too, but at that point I might as well just run a typical URW Delver build.
I could go with basics, and usually try to fit a few in for those Paths that seem to show in every deck with white. Blood Moon isn't a huge threat, as there is only 1 established deck that I know of that runs it (RUG Delver).
Thanks for the input
FYI: Bloodbraid does nothing with Restoration Angel. You have to cast BBE to trigger the cascade, and that doesn't happen as an EtB effect.
When I mentioned about hitting WW, I was assuming we'd be changing the mana base to have lesser shocklands, but if it remains that way, then yeah I guess hitting WW and RR early isn't a problem. But is it really worth taking all that damage just for the Wrath? The format is aggressively fast and all that damage might hurt you too much.
For the Affinity matchup, I believe by the time you could wrath the Etched Champion away anyway, you'd probably be in burn range already. Wrath really might be too slow for it. But there isn't much choice for sweepers like that. Maybe Porphyry Nodes would be better. As for finishers, I agree we need more but that many creatures as 'finishers' might be too much.
And I was led to believe that Cascade works after reading the suggestion of Restoration Angel. Yep, doesn't work. The angel totally has no place here then.
While my deck is not perfect, or even well tuned (I don't spend too much time testing it), I think your assessment of BBE is incorrect. A well tuned and well built deck running BBE will have card quality that is high enough that no matter what you flip you are harming your opponent's board position. Look at Jund- there are some ideal flips, but all others are still good. It is CA and tempo all in one package.
Okay man, here's the thing. I'm not personally attacking your deck or anything. But look at a typical Jund list. BBE fits right there perfectly. Everything that could be Cascaded in has pretty much an instant effect on the game. But now look at the typical R/G LD lists. You want ramp, birds, spirit guide blah blah blah. Those cards are horrible topdecks for Cascade.
Cascading into a Spirit Guide, Birds, Leonin Arbiter, Fulminator Mage isn't gonna do much for us. Yeah, I know your deck isn't well-tuned or whatever but I'm assessing BBE's role and its usefulness in a typical R/G LD deck. Not the card on its own. It's a great card and Jund is a different deck altogether. BBE belongs there. But with all the ramp creatures (possibly spells) being run here, I just don't think it belongs here. But I don't deny that it's good and warrants testing.
Firstly, been really busy lately so haven't had much time actually sit down and reply here, but it's nice to see that there have been some discussion going on while I was away! Keep at it, guys!
Just updated the first post with some minor changes. Now, for replies!
Typical keepable hand is 2-3 land 5-4 cards so if your opponent doesn't show land on a first turn blackmail you only cannot choose 1-2 cards. Altho I agree this is giving choise its still a bad situation for them becuase people just dont play bad cards you always get to pick something good. Maybe your right tho, and it could be better to just play 4 Inquisition of Kozilek and get rid of low mana plays first and then destroy lands
The thing is that modern is a fast format, even on the play a Goyf or Delver can come online before your land distruction or on the draw your counters. To me it seems that 1 mana discard solves that situation before it arises.
Another thing that bothers me about U/R is that it has a twofold game plan. It wants to be reactive with counters and proactive with land destruction. These two plans do not work well together, a turn 3 Stone rain means you cannot counter his turn 3 play. Id rather be full on proactive and not have to worry about needing mana open on my opponents turn the first part of the game.
Altho i cannot prove that this is a better game plan my gut feeling tells me to avoid this situation.
Yeah, I get that we won't be able to deal with some early plays like Tarmogoyf or Delver of Secrets or whatever, but that's what the spot/mass removals are for. It doesn't hurt us too badly to take some damage early before we draw an answer (hopefully). The cantrips do help too.
About being reactive and proactive, yeah that's the thing about tempo decks (this is kinda tempo-control-ish thing, I guess?). Opponent has a dual land or Urza land in play on my third turn and I have a Stone Rain and Remand in my hand? I'd definitely take out the dual. If not, I'll keep the turn to Remand his next play and continue accordingly. It's all the situations like that and the decision making which makes the deck fun for me.
I just don't see a BR version of this working as well as the UR. Your discard cards will hurt you more than help over the long run i.e. Thoughtseize and in late game, they might not be as useful as counters when the opponent's hand is more thinned out. (and that's the idea here, to stall and do some land destruction). At least, that's what my gut tells me. But hey, this is why I made this thread. Wanted more opinions and people to help me test out the possibilities and discuss it all. So yeah, do test it out and keep me updated on the BR version, man! I'm very interested to see how it plays out.
I like Frost Titan as the finisher here, the extra 2 required to remove him really does add up when mana is already at a premium.
Yeah, that's why I picked him instead of the many other creatures available. He's harder to remove and he denies them their lands too. And with all the 'dead' removals they have been drawing since I barely run creatures, they'll all be waiting in hand, just to drop it on my finisher.
Were I to play LD, I'd play Naya so I could run Knight of the Reliquary and Bloodbraid Elf. Nothing beats cascading into Boom/Bust and casting Bust for free.
Then you have Acidic Slime, which you can flicker with Restoration Angel. And if you're playing Angel, you can have Kiki in the sideboard for a surprise win.
Naya is appealing but if I were to play Naya, it wouldn't be for Restoration Angel. The angel only has synergy with Bloodbraid Elf. There's no other reason to run the angel except BBE. Not worth the slots. Knight of the Reliquary would also only be worth it if you managed to cast Bust. It only gets pumped by your lands, not the opponent's. Shouldn't even be considering it. These two creatures are very strong but they just have no place in the deck. And I'd try not to push too hard on the mana base to avoid playing too many shocklands.
Besides, Ajani Vengeant, Lightning Helix, Ghostly Prison and Leonin Arbiter are pretty much the only good reasons to run white. And the Arbiter screws up our mana fixing for playing 3 colours too so it's not THAT good of an inclusion. Unless anyone has anything else to add?
I also tend to agree that the Naya version must be the most competitive considering the power of the cards the colours offer.
Apart from that i like the U/R version more since it is more "rogue-ish", but splashing the white for Ajani, Vengeant and cheap removal in the early game (Lightning Helix) seems as a must to me, taking the current metagame in consideration.
Hasn't anyone thought about Tamiyo in this deck?
Not sure about Naya being the most competitive but yeah, testing as much as I can. I like the idea of splashing white too, but Helix just doesn't seem worth it. The lifegain could be useful but... I'm not so sure HOW useful.
As for Tamiyo, the Moon Sage, damn, I totally forgot about her! She might be a perfect fit at 5cmc. Have always been missing a card at 5CMC. Will definitely test her.
I'd replace the Wrath of Gods with Pyroclasm or Volcanic Fallout. Also the mana base might hurt you too much though. Wrath is too slow and has WW. Might be a big problem trying to hit that by turn 4. Try a few basics. If your opponent resolves a Blood Moon, you're done (you have no counters too). As for your creatures, Delver and Figure are great, but I don't think this is the right place for them. You'd be better with some counters in their spot.
----
For the record, I really do believe that going the BURN approach is the way to do it. Only play creatures that are harder to remove and/or instant board presence the moment played (Frost Titan). That'll leave all/most of their removals as dead cards as you carry on with your gameplan and give you the option of going for a transformational sideboard too.
Also, I wouldn't base the deck on Bloodbraid Elf. Too much luck involved and the typical list for it would be something like what DrWorm posted and it's really clunky. You won't always be getting that LD from the Cascade. I want to be able to 'consistently' attack their mana base my way and not hope for it to happen with every Cascade activation.
Whew, took me awhile to type all that. Will be following the thread closely now. And for those who didn't read everything on the first post, please do.
has anyone tried out Shivan Wumpus as a beater/ld card for this deck. 4 mana 6/6 trample is nice. the only thing is that he is quite bad when your opponents are winning the creature race.
id play this deck B/R
4 blackmail ( only discard in modern to kill lands)
4 rise//fall ( modern hymn that works nicely with blackmail) or inquisition of koizilek
4 terminate or cruel eddict
2 consuming vapors
4 boom// bust
2 bonfire of the damned ( not sure about this one, maybe Terminus could work well in this deck aswell but then it needs 3colors)
4 stone rain
4 magnivore
3 Shivan Wumpus
the plan would be to destroy anything low mana in your opponents hand the first few turns. then start blowing up lands and killing creatures that might have come through.
the issue I have with the blue version is that it seems weak against storm combo and burn, basicly decks that can operate on 2 mana as long as there hand stays untouched.
What do you guys think?
btw: Where is the "weak wildfire" card
3rr deals 3 damage to all creatures each player sac 3 lands... that would be awsome
Shivan Wumpus... This kind of deck is the only home for it to be playable but it's gonna need a lot of testing. I'm a little skeptical.
I like the BR take on it and have thought of it (though not much) but I prefer blue for the counter magic and draw although being able to get their lands from hand could hurt a lot too but Blackmail is giving them a choice. Once they know what we're playing, lands will never be revealed. I don't like it since discard lets them decide and if we're talking about choosing what to discard for them, Thoughtseize and Rise // Fall, they only target nonland stuff. Once they know what they're up against, they'll choose to keep lands and go topdeck mode. So unless we're playing very heavy discard (which will make the LD plan take a backseat) I don't think this will work as well as blue.
I'd rather have them going 'topdeck' mode for lands, even with their hand full. I'm leaning more towards blue for now even with its weak matchups. Against Burn, I'd just aggressively mulligan for a Spreading Seas; that'll keep us alive long enough to stabilise and they don't play that many lands too. For storm, I'm not sure though but it's probably our weakest matchup.
I'm thinking though, if we play some black disruption/discard as part of a transformational sideboard plan...
Isochron Scepter combined with boomerang...if it comes out on turn 2 on the play you can ensure they never get off two land. However many lands they have when you stick it, that's the maximum they'll have until they remove it.
Isochorn Scepter doesn't and probaly won't have much synergy with the type of deck since the average CMC is 3 with all the usual LD. And without it, Boomerang is very subpar at its job of denying them off lands as they'll definitely only be set a turn back, rather than possibly many turns. We're playing a long game and just buying a turn isn't gonna be enough. I'd rather slow them down with removal/counter magic early before starting to destroy lands.
Yeah, the scepter can do that, great. But to make it work 'consistently' enough to warrant their inclusion, gotta have 4 of each. That's 8 slots gone for something so gimmicky and everyone has artifact hate in their 75. Not to mention that having other 2 CMC spells to make the scepter have other targets is essential for it to not be a dead draw. It's also a 2-for-1 on yourself if it gets removed right after you play it. And if it's just a 1-2 of, might as well not play it cause you want it early for it to be best. You're probably already winning if you survive that long.
Well, that's just my opinion. Avoiding bouncing lands instead of destroying; too much risk in the 'already very risky' gameplan.
Please remember that Pithing Needle is useable on Fetch Lands. Since you're not running mana accels this card would be great in helping shut down your oppenents early game.
I tried running LD with a :symg::symr::symw: mana base. I gave up on the idea because of the meta when Modern was first introduced. With the new banned list and meta being rediscovered, this is a good time to look into a LD deck. Best of luck!
Yeah, that's great actually. But probably just a sideboard card, I'd rather they do fetch something, lose 1 life (possibly 3), then I destroy it or cast Spreading Seas on it. Plus, if they've fetched, and I keep destroying their lands, they'll possibly run out of lands even faster.
Also yeah, cause of the new decks emerging and modern changing here and there, I'm having good vibes for this.
If you're doing only then you might want to look into Planeswalkers or maybe Ball Lightning.
Adding just one more color would truly be benefical to your deck. I would consider for Ajani Goldmane or Ajani Vengeant.
White would also bring on more options for creatures. Low casting cost creatures at that.
Playing something like Ball Lightning makes me feel like trying to be RDW as well, and it'll be better if we stray away from that. This isn't sligh, and I think we should stay away from trying to be sligh. Decks that try to be too many things usually don't work out very well. From my experience, at least. Playing creatures, unless they're hard to remove or is beneficial the moment they hit, goes against what I believe we're trying to do. Blanking out pretty much all their removals is quite important and gives you that pseudo card advantage.
The only Planeswalker I found that COULD be useful for the deck are the two already listed in card choices. Chandra, the Firebrand and Ajani Vengeant. But I haven't found that many good reasons to splash white though, so maybe I'm missing something.
I've been pondering on what I can do with so much mana, and I guess Snapcaster Mage would be a fine addition. It has a decent body which could work well with my used spells. Most times during testing, I end up with a lot of mana and nothing to do so maybe it'll be useful to have a few. A playset? I'm skeptical though. Cause let's say, if I had a Snapcaster instead of a Stone Rain in hand on turn 3, then I'll be waiting for some use of the Snapcaster instead of outright destroying a land on that turn and that might/could slow me down. This really needs testing. But I love the idea of including him.
@CHEESY_BARF: I find that running blue gives you more ways to handle stuff than just going for removal aggressively and destroying lands. For example, Spreading Seas will probably colour screw them; there aren't many blue decks around and countermagic will work better at removing early threats than many sweepers. What if he plays something big? A well-fed goyf on the field will be hard to remove with just burns. So countering it would be best, if not outright destroying it (which warrants my inclusion of Beast Within, even though just a singleton).
I've tried going that route, but it's usually only effective against the aggressive creature decks cause of all the burn removal. It'll totally just fold to combo though, especially when you don't have a Blood Moon out by turn 3. And that's if you're lucky. Sometimes, getting it out turn 3 wouldn't matter anyway, which is why I don't wanna be too reliant on it. While I've said that I don't see the Mono-Red LD take on this making it far, do let us know how your testing goes. In any case, considering your deck's gameplan with red, do check out the Moon's Essence primer cause they're discussing exactly what you're trying to do. I'm sure your input will be valuable to those working there.
needs more magnivore, that guy really owns in decks like this. late game 10/10 haste for 4 mana really steals games away.
Also 4 darksteel citadel with boom//bust is a must. the chance on t2 stone rain is very nice
Magnivore is great for LD decks, yeah but cause it lacks creatures, and compared to Frost Titan which is harder to deal with, Magnivore will immediately draw whatever 'dead' removal the opponent would have in hand. I'd like to avoid that and have just that pseudo card advantage by letting them hold onto 'dead' removals.
Hadn't thought of the Darksteel Citadels, nice. Should be an auto-include indeed.
P.S. Thinking of removing Annex totally for Molten Rain. With the high land count, I'd rather have a cheaper land destruction spell which could be potential damage than steal a land. Though, in Annex's defense, it'll work great against other decks that play Darksteel Citadel since we can't destroy that. Plus, with the addition of Darksteel Citadel in the deck, Ghost Quarter could be used as a fetch too (for more synergy with Boom // Bust). Thoughts?
EDIT: Moved Annex to sideboard instead in favour of Molten Rain to lower the average CMC of the deck. Dropped Roiling Terrain to 2 as well for the same reason. Added a singleton Red Sun's Zenith and removed the 4th Lightning Bolt to make use of the excess mana in case of a dragged game. And it's reuseable as well, though the chances are slim, more of a finisher than anything.
I really feel like you need better / more win conditions. What's going to stop me from Hide/Seek (Seek)ing away or Pathing your Frost Giants when you tap out to drop LD?
When it gets to the point where I do cast Frost Titan, the board will be in my favour if I'm not already dead. The titan on its own can keep 1 land tapped so even cheap removal will be costly considering the amount of land destruction.
As for Hide // Seek and the like, well, I have to say that I don't have answers for that, but it's something consider before tapping out I guess. These cards are partly the reason why I've included some counters like Remands. But yeah, it'll hurt getting hit by that.
The deck's already very dense as it is, I'm really not sure about adding other win conditions. I do get where you're coming from but this really needs more extensive testing as of now.
Have you tried Wildfire? It's the basis of a few completely different deck archetypes, but still a LD spell nonetheless. Artifact ramp and planeswalkers are its BFFs.
SB wise, if you play red you can make space for Blood Moon.
Wildfire is great but it's probably not for this deck cause I believe Boom // Bust will fill in that same role when you draw it late. Once a Frost Titan hits, land a Bust and you're good to go. Pretty much the same idea. Although Wildfire does have that bonus sweeping effect which could come in handy... Maybe a 1/2-of but that'll greatly increase the curve which is quite steep as it is.
Aren't decks like this too slow? I think delver would be good in this type of deck, but you'd have to change some cards to accommodate it, like switching out spreading seas for boomerang and the sweepers for serum visions. Maybe grim lavamancer would be good too? what about 2-3 copies of reverberate?
It's slow, but not too slow because of the early disruption/removal. Just need to survive long enough to get things going. The sweepers are very necessary cause of all early drops around; remember, the deck has no creatures for us to block with. Playing Delver of Secrets isn't what the deck wants to do. And it'll just draw all the removal. Not the deck for it. Might need some testing. As for Grim Lavamancer, that'll just change the whole deck altogether. The beauty of it is to not have any other creatures EXCEPT Frost Titan so any form of removal they draw early on is a dead card. They're transformational sideboard options at best.
Boomerang would just bounce the land, and they'll still be able to play it again. Granted, if it was a shockland, they'd either be slowed down or end up taking more damage, but that's not the aim. While this is somewhat a tempo deck, Boomerang only gives you that slight edge, by only delaying them a turn. Destroying lands will have them hope they draw lands to play and not just play the land we bounced. We're trying to stop them, not stall them. So destroying lands or Spreading Seas them is essential to deny them off their colours. Plus, it cantrips.
Reverberate is a horrible topdeck cause it doesn't do anything on its own. Will be better off without it.
NessOnett: I like the direction your deck is going, with an all-in LD plan. I'm sure we can improve on it than it is currently so good luck with your testing and all. I haven't had much luck with the all-in approach but glad you're able to do well.
And yeah, Smallpox is really great in the format. Especially if you can take advantage of it. Been trying to do so. I haven't had great results with my current list of semi-LD in the past weeks though. Lots of 1-2 finishes and even a 0-3.
Most matchups are pretty decent. Pretty much against every deck I played, I manage to take control but couldn't finish up the game before they stabilised and started playing more lands.
EDIT:
4 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Marsh Flats
4 Arid Mesa
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Godless Shrine
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Blood Crypt
Creatures [1]
1 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Ajani Vengeant
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Others [26]
1 Batterskull
2 Wrath of God
3 Inquisiton of Kozilek
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Lingering Souls
4 Boom/Bust
4 Smallpox
1 Wrath of God
3 Pyroclasm
2 Wear/Tear
4 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
2 Pithing Needle
Inquisition of Kozilek has been way better than Blackmail. Though it could get lands sometimes, most times there are other relevant things to remove. And Inquisiton reveals the whole hand rather than just 3 cards.
Games only go "well" when you have some LD in your starting hand. Especially Smallpox. Without it, most times I won't be able to slow them down enough to take over with the walkers. And at some point, it will be a really long grind till I manage to draw Blood Baron or Batterskull. In some games, by the time that happens, they would have had enough time to recover from all the LD. Might have to take this in another direction as Planeswalkers seem too slow. Many decks can effectively recover after some LD.
Young Pyromancer might just be the card we need. Getting one to stick will mean that each LD spell would at least net you a creature. I will have to look into this.
I haven't been too sure about Leyline of Sanctity since I haven't played against burn. But with Helix, Ajani, removals and discards, I would think that burn should be a decent match up. Discard hurts, but it's not worth the slot to play 4. For example, I'd rather let them discard a smallpox than have a Leyline (or draw into one) to stop it.
Usually my hand would be empty by turn 5 or 6? Unless I have a ton of lands and nothing to play or a couple of Planeswalkers. I've thought about Ensnaring Bridge a lot but I feel that it will slow down my own clock to finish off the opponent before he recovers from the LD. Which is also why I play burns over Wraths main. I opted to play Elspeth, Knight-Errant over it to quicken the clock when I have control. Can't have both Elspeth and Bridge in the same deck.
@kylar: NessOnett is right, that deck has flaws... too many. We're trying to build something competitive here.
@NessOnett: Your Ponza deck looks good. How has the Phoenix and Koth been performing? They don't seem that necessary and helping the game plan. Was it always worth it to have the 4 Spirit Guides and Crack the Earth? I mean, how often have you gotten those 2 in your starting hand AND playing second (for maximum timewalk)? However, the Guides would help with getting an early Trinisphere too so that's good. Will give this a try once I can figure out what to change for it. Looks good.
Been getting some testing done with this list below.
4 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Marsh Flats
4 Arid Mesa
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Godless Shrine
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Fulminator Mage
Planeswalkers [9]
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Ajani Vengeant
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Others [23]
3 Blackmail
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Lingering Souls
4 Boom/Bust
4 Smallpox
2 Wrath of God
1 Fulminator Mage
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Stony Silence
3 Pyroclasm
2 Pithing Needle
Been trying a different approach, dropping blue altogether and trying to abuse Smallpox. Wonderful card, coupled with some discard. Most recent results was from an FNM, with a 2-1 score.
Deck simply plays to clear some lands and beatdown once you're in control with some tokens.
Game 1: Storm (2-1 Win)
Relic plays a big part in this and the LD hurts storm a ton before they can go off. A Smallpox after they've dropped Goblin Electromancer is back-breaking.
Game 2: Jund (0-2 Loss)
Wrath and Relic comes in these games. Just keep that Dark Confidant out of the way. Goyf and Ooze can be easily dealt with. In one game, I managed to keep him on 1 land till turn 4 or 5 but didn't have enough removal for Confidant and he just managed to get back the lands slowly. Confidant has to go. The advantage is insane.
Game 3: UWR (2-0 Win)
Felt like a pretty easy win. Just kept him off the red/blue mana and played around the counters. Save up the burn to finish him off.
Recent testing results shows some promises so I will be testing this further, tweaking some cards here and there. Have found that Inquisiton of Kozilek might be a better choice or even Thoughtseize over Blackmail to scan their hand and know what lands to remove but Blackmail has managed to keep them off lands at some point as well. Maybe a mix. Blackmail is a way better topdeck.
Tap the one in play for w, play the new one and sacrifice the one in play, tap the new one for w. Compared to previously, tap the one in play and when the second comes into play, they both go in the yard.
Most recent list posted by Infowarrior is something similar to what I've been testing so stay tuned! Will address the recent posts with questions when I can while I'm at it.
When I mentioned about hitting WW, I was assuming we'd be changing the mana base to have lesser shocklands, but if it remains that way, then yeah I guess hitting WW and RR early isn't a problem. But is it really worth taking all that damage just for the Wrath? The format is aggressively fast and all that damage might hurt you too much.
For the Affinity matchup, I believe by the time you could wrath the Etched Champion away anyway, you'd probably be in burn range already. Wrath really might be too slow for it. But there isn't much choice for sweepers like that. Maybe Porphyry Nodes would be better. As for finishers, I agree we need more but that many creatures as 'finishers' might be too much.
And I was led to believe that Cascade works after reading the suggestion of Restoration Angel. Yep, doesn't work. The angel totally has no place here then.
Okay man, here's the thing. I'm not personally attacking your deck or anything. But look at a typical Jund list. BBE fits right there perfectly. Everything that could be Cascaded in has pretty much an instant effect on the game. But now look at the typical R/G LD lists. You want ramp, birds, spirit guide blah blah blah. Those cards are horrible topdecks for Cascade.
Cascading into a Spirit Guide, Birds, Leonin Arbiter, Fulminator Mage isn't gonna do much for us. Yeah, I know your deck isn't well-tuned or whatever but I'm assessing BBE's role and its usefulness in a typical R/G LD deck. Not the card on its own. It's a great card and Jund is a different deck altogether. BBE belongs there. But with all the ramp creatures (possibly spells) being run here, I just don't think it belongs here. But I don't deny that it's good and warrants testing.
Just updated the first post with some minor changes. Now, for replies!
Yeah, I get that we won't be able to deal with some early plays like Tarmogoyf or Delver of Secrets or whatever, but that's what the spot/mass removals are for. It doesn't hurt us too badly to take some damage early before we draw an answer (hopefully). The cantrips do help too.
About being reactive and proactive, yeah that's the thing about tempo decks (this is kinda tempo-control-ish thing, I guess?). Opponent has a dual land or Urza land in play on my third turn and I have a Stone Rain and Remand in my hand? I'd definitely take out the dual. If not, I'll keep the turn to Remand his next play and continue accordingly. It's all the situations like that and the decision making which makes the deck fun for me.
I just don't see a BR version of this working as well as the UR. Your discard cards will hurt you more than help over the long run i.e. Thoughtseize and in late game, they might not be as useful as counters when the opponent's hand is more thinned out. (and that's the idea here, to stall and do some land destruction). At least, that's what my gut tells me. But hey, this is why I made this thread. Wanted more opinions and people to help me test out the possibilities and discuss it all. So yeah, do test it out and keep me updated on the BR version, man! I'm very interested to see how it plays out.
Yeah, that's why I picked him instead of the many other creatures available. He's harder to remove and he denies them their lands too. And with all the 'dead' removals they have been drawing since I barely run creatures, they'll all be waiting in hand, just to drop it on my finisher.
Naya is appealing but if I were to play Naya, it wouldn't be for Restoration Angel. The angel only has synergy with Bloodbraid Elf. There's no other reason to run the angel except BBE. Not worth the slots. Knight of the Reliquary would also only be worth it if you managed to cast Bust. It only gets pumped by your lands, not the opponent's. Shouldn't even be considering it. These two creatures are very strong but they just have no place in the deck. And I'd try not to push too hard on the mana base to avoid playing too many shocklands.
Besides, Ajani Vengeant, Lightning Helix, Ghostly Prison and Leonin Arbiter are pretty much the only good reasons to run white. And the Arbiter screws up our mana fixing for playing 3 colours too so it's not THAT good of an inclusion. Unless anyone has anything else to add?
Not sure about Naya being the most competitive but yeah, testing as much as I can. I like the idea of splashing white too, but Helix just doesn't seem worth it. The lifegain could be useful but... I'm not so sure HOW useful.
As for Tamiyo, the Moon Sage, damn, I totally forgot about her! She might be a perfect fit at 5cmc. Have always been missing a card at 5CMC. Will definitely test her.
I'd replace the Wrath of Gods with Pyroclasm or Volcanic Fallout. Also the mana base might hurt you too much though. Wrath is too slow and has WW. Might be a big problem trying to hit that by turn 4. Try a few basics. If your opponent resolves a Blood Moon, you're done (you have no counters too). As for your creatures, Delver and Figure are great, but I don't think this is the right place for them. You'd be better with some counters in their spot.
For the record, I really do believe that going the BURN approach is the way to do it. Only play creatures that are harder to remove and/or instant board presence the moment played (Frost Titan). That'll leave all/most of their removals as dead cards as you carry on with your gameplan and give you the option of going for a transformational sideboard too.
Also, I wouldn't base the deck on Bloodbraid Elf. Too much luck involved and the typical list for it would be something like what DrWorm posted and it's really clunky. You won't always be getting that LD from the Cascade. I want to be able to 'consistently' attack their mana base my way and not hope for it to happen with every Cascade activation.
Whew, took me awhile to type all that. Will be following the thread closely now. And for those who didn't read everything on the first post, please do.
Shivan Wumpus... This kind of deck is the only home for it to be playable but it's gonna need a lot of testing. I'm a little skeptical.
I like the BR take on it and have thought of it (though not much) but I prefer blue for the counter magic and draw although being able to get their lands from hand could hurt a lot too but Blackmail is giving them a choice. Once they know what we're playing, lands will never be revealed. I don't like it since discard lets them decide and if we're talking about choosing what to discard for them, Thoughtseize and Rise // Fall, they only target nonland stuff. Once they know what they're up against, they'll choose to keep lands and go topdeck mode. So unless we're playing very heavy discard (which will make the LD plan take a backseat) I don't think this will work as well as blue.
I'd rather have them going 'topdeck' mode for lands, even with their hand full. I'm leaning more towards blue for now even with its weak matchups. Against Burn, I'd just aggressively mulligan for a Spreading Seas; that'll keep us alive long enough to stabilise and they don't play that many lands too. For storm, I'm not sure though but it's probably our weakest matchup.
I'm thinking though, if we play some black disruption/discard as part of a transformational sideboard plan...
Isochorn Scepter doesn't and probaly won't have much synergy with the type of deck since the average CMC is 3 with all the usual LD. And without it, Boomerang is very subpar at its job of denying them off lands as they'll definitely only be set a turn back, rather than possibly many turns. We're playing a long game and just buying a turn isn't gonna be enough. I'd rather slow them down with removal/counter magic early before starting to destroy lands.
Yeah, the scepter can do that, great. But to make it work 'consistently' enough to warrant their inclusion, gotta have 4 of each. That's 8 slots gone for something so gimmicky and everyone has artifact hate in their 75. Not to mention that having other 2 CMC spells to make the scepter have other targets is essential for it to not be a dead draw. It's also a 2-for-1 on yourself if it gets removed right after you play it. And if it's just a 1-2 of, might as well not play it cause you want it early for it to be best. You're probably already winning if you survive that long.
Well, that's just my opinion. Avoiding bouncing lands instead of destroying; too much risk in the 'already very risky' gameplan.
Yeah, that's great actually. But probably just a sideboard card, I'd rather they do fetch something, lose 1 life (possibly 3), then I destroy it or cast Spreading Seas on it. Plus, if they've fetched, and I keep destroying their lands, they'll possibly run out of lands even faster.
Also yeah, cause of the new decks emerging and modern changing here and there, I'm having good vibes for this.
Playing something like Ball Lightning makes me feel like trying to be RDW as well, and it'll be better if we stray away from that. This isn't sligh, and I think we should stay away from trying to be sligh. Decks that try to be too many things usually don't work out very well. From my experience, at least. Playing creatures, unless they're hard to remove or is beneficial the moment they hit, goes against what I believe we're trying to do. Blanking out pretty much all their removals is quite important and gives you that pseudo card advantage.
The only Planeswalker I found that COULD be useful for the deck are the two already listed in card choices. Chandra, the Firebrand and Ajani Vengeant. But I haven't found that many good reasons to splash white though, so maybe I'm missing something.
I've been pondering on what I can do with so much mana, and I guess Snapcaster Mage would be a fine addition. It has a decent body which could work well with my used spells. Most times during testing, I end up with a lot of mana and nothing to do so maybe it'll be useful to have a few. A playset? I'm skeptical though. Cause let's say, if I had a Snapcaster instead of a Stone Rain in hand on turn 3, then I'll be waiting for some use of the Snapcaster instead of outright destroying a land on that turn and that might/could slow me down. This really needs testing. But I love the idea of including him.
@CHEESY_BARF: I find that running blue gives you more ways to handle stuff than just going for removal aggressively and destroying lands. For example, Spreading Seas will probably colour screw them; there aren't many blue decks around and countermagic will work better at removing early threats than many sweepers. What if he plays something big? A well-fed goyf on the field will be hard to remove with just burns. So countering it would be best, if not outright destroying it (which warrants my inclusion of Beast Within, even though just a singleton).
I've tried going that route, but it's usually only effective against the aggressive creature decks cause of all the burn removal. It'll totally just fold to combo though, especially when you don't have a Blood Moon out by turn 3. And that's if you're lucky. Sometimes, getting it out turn 3 wouldn't matter anyway, which is why I don't wanna be too reliant on it. While I've said that I don't see the Mono-Red LD take on this making it far, do let us know how your testing goes. In any case, considering your deck's gameplan with red, do check out the Moon's Essence primer cause they're discussing exactly what you're trying to do. I'm sure your input will be valuable to those working there.
Magnivore is great for LD decks, yeah but cause it lacks creatures, and compared to Frost Titan which is harder to deal with, Magnivore will immediately draw whatever 'dead' removal the opponent would have in hand. I'd like to avoid that and have just that pseudo card advantage by letting them hold onto 'dead' removals.
Hadn't thought of the Darksteel Citadels, nice. Should be an auto-include indeed.
P.S. Thinking of removing Annex totally for Molten Rain. With the high land count, I'd rather have a cheaper land destruction spell which could be potential damage than steal a land. Though, in Annex's defense, it'll work great against other decks that play Darksteel Citadel since we can't destroy that. Plus, with the addition of Darksteel Citadel in the deck, Ghost Quarter could be used as a fetch too (for more synergy with Boom // Bust). Thoughts?
EDIT: Moved Annex to sideboard instead in favour of Molten Rain to lower the average CMC of the deck. Dropped Roiling Terrain to 2 as well for the same reason. Added a singleton Red Sun's Zenith and removed the 4th Lightning Bolt to make use of the excess mana in case of a dragged game. And it's reuseable as well, though the chances are slim, more of a finisher than anything.
When it gets to the point where I do cast Frost Titan, the board will be in my favour if I'm not already dead. The titan on its own can keep 1 land tapped so even cheap removal will be costly considering the amount of land destruction.
As for Hide // Seek and the like, well, I have to say that I don't have answers for that, but it's something consider before tapping out I guess. These cards are partly the reason why I've included some counters like Remands. But yeah, it'll hurt getting hit by that.
The deck's already very dense as it is, I'm really not sure about adding other win conditions. I do get where you're coming from but this really needs more extensive testing as of now.
Wildfire is great but it's probably not for this deck cause I believe Boom // Bust will fill in that same role when you draw it late. Once a Frost Titan hits, land a Bust and you're good to go. Pretty much the same idea. Although Wildfire does have that bonus sweeping effect which could come in handy... Maybe a 1/2-of but that'll greatly increase the curve which is quite steep as it is.
Might up the land count to 25.
It's slow, but not too slow because of the early disruption/removal. Just need to survive long enough to get things going. The sweepers are very necessary cause of all early drops around; remember, the deck has no creatures for us to block with. Playing Delver of Secrets isn't what the deck wants to do. And it'll just draw all the removal. Not the deck for it. Might need some testing. As for Grim Lavamancer, that'll just change the whole deck altogether. The beauty of it is to not have any other creatures EXCEPT Frost Titan so any form of removal they draw early on is a dead card. They're transformational sideboard options at best.
Boomerang would just bounce the land, and they'll still be able to play it again. Granted, if it was a shockland, they'd either be slowed down or end up taking more damage, but that's not the aim. While this is somewhat a tempo deck, Boomerang only gives you that slight edge, by only delaying them a turn. Destroying lands will have them hope they draw lands to play and not just play the land we bounced. We're trying to stop them, not stall them. So destroying lands or Spreading Seas them is essential to deny them off their colours. Plus, it cantrips.
Reverberate is a horrible topdeck cause it doesn't do anything on its own. Will be better off without it.