I don't think lowering the curve is the solution for this deck. We're not an aggro deck and we don't have the resources to play a grindy midrange battle.
We're essentially a Prison-style deck that uses Stone Rain/Molten Rain/Blood Moon to stall our opponents out and crush them with big threats. As I mentioned in my previous post, BBE has a roughly 40% of hitting a dud card with 10 ramp cards vs. 18 or so non-ramp cards with 3 CMC or less (the actual percentage is going to fluctuate based on your list/what you've already drawn, obviously). I can't help but think that slot could be better filled by something else, even if we haven't figured out what it is yet.
I like new versions playing around 4 bolts , i have been really liking the card.
Right now im looking to get some scoozes mainboard,lowering the curve may be a good idea...
Similarly, I'm considering Tarmogoyf MB to lower the curve. Easily a 4/5 at least for 2 CMC. Possibly remove BBE, as I don't think she's really that good in our deck...cascading into a mana dork or Utopia Sprawl feels bad and they make up ~40-50% of the possible targets she can hit. That's a pretty high degree of variance.
I'd definitely keep the big hitters though. It's why we run 10 dedicated ramp sources in the deck. A resolved Inferno Titan has to be answered before you untap, as it can spiral very quickly out of hand.
There were some lists that were going heavier toward Dragons/dragon synergies like the M19 Sarkhan. The ones that've been succeeding lately more so are playing bombs that are individually good like Inferno Titan and Stormbreath dragon.
There was 1st Place finish from a Ponza list in the SCG Charlotte Open! Wahoo! REALLY tempting me to resleeve this bad boy after that and seeing a guy from my LGS get 10th @ at SCG Dallas. :-D
I agree RE: Hazoret's monument. For card filtering, I prefer Chandra, Torch of Defiance and Chandra, Flamecaller. The latter is speculation - I've not been able to play with her yet but she seems to solve one of my biggest problems with this deck: being stuck with a hand full of dorks/ramp late game.
Something else worth considering may be Experimental Frenzy. We tend to have plenty of mana to play with and can get to the point where we're top decking anyway pretty fast especially if you consider that we're close to heckbent by turn 3 with an ideal hand (T1: Land + Dork, T2: Land, Sprawl,Land D/BloodMoon, T3: Land + Threat). Dropping Frenzy on T3/T4 could give us a bit more acceleration.
Reveler seems interesting. I've also been considering a number of Faithless Lootings though I'm not sure how many. likely replacing Courser all together
I hope we get something new. What I'd love to see is some sort of modal/flexible options in a similar vein as Knight of Autumn (multiple relevant modes) or Assassin's Trophy (flexibility). Perhaps a spell or creature that sacrifices to destroy a land, ramp, or deal damage to all creatures. I don't know if we'd get something that strong at a low CMC though. Wizards has been opposed to printing Stone Rains into standard for a while now.
RE: Pia and Kiran - at worst, it's a lingering souls effect attached to a 2/2. But where it really shines is with Tireless Tracker. You can sacrifice clues to P&Ks ability, which mitigates the effects of flooding out.
A Ponza list top 16'd the SCG Dallas Open this past weekend, so it's an example of how the deck is still relevant. It's just doesnt have new toys and ia not as sexy as something like Dredge or GBx/Jund right now.
The list itself is pretty close to stock. None of the newer Dragon tech.
Abrade is a great choice for a deck like this IMO. It gives us flexible options, which is a large part of what this deck is missing compared to other mid-range decks.
Take Mardu or GBx for an example - K Command, collective brutality,etc. all offer a variety of situational uses.
I've seen some lists for Naya Ponza go around that I think solve this to some extent, though I've not had the chance to test it personally
Still viable yes. Top 8 at SCG Modern IQ Danbury on 10/7/18 and before that first place at the SCG Modern IQ Findlay in September.
While still viable, the deck is not without it's challenges. Blood Moon is a little bit less effective than it used to be, with decks packing more basics due to Field of Ruin, GQ, and now Assassin's Trophy. But, it can still act as a bit of a tempo play, since they have to take a turn to deal with it, which can be especially effective when backed with land destruction.
It can have a bit of a hard time with Humans, since MB removal is quite limited, and it is susceptible to disruption (targeted discard and/or removal against the mana dorks). When it executes its plan it works REALLY well... but when we get to the top deck war, its harder b/c other decks are better at this then us.
P&K are 1cmc cheaper and the incidental synergy with Tracker is actually more inpactful than I initially thought when I started playing it. It's a shade better IMO.
Thanks! I hadn't thought about the Tracker synergy but that makes a ton of sense. Previously, I had been running Jadelight Rangers instead of Tracker because I didn't have any. HOWEVER, I just picked up my playset + my remaining dual lands while at GP DFW last weekend, so I ought to be able to take advantage of that now! Excited to take this out for a whirl again :-D
What do you guys think about running 1-2x Siege-gang Commander in the MB. Perhaps in place of Pia & Kiran.
My thinking is that 5 CMC isn't too difficult to achieve, it creates more bodies, and can potentially deal more direct damage (and cheaper per sting) than P&K.
Definitely get Stomping Grounds if you intend to play this deck for a long time. Cinder Glades are good as a temporary budget replacement, but they can sometimes cause a fatal slowdown in some games.
Hehe yes I did! Even with people calling me a degenerate for blowing up their lands.
What I'll most likely do is get 1x Stomping Ground with my store credit, then wait/trade for another. I'd like to also get the Trackers, but Jadelight has been doing well enough that I can stall for the price to fall further.
I had a chance to pilot this last night at my LGS' Modern event. I was a bit nervous as it tends to be a bit more competitive b/c the cash prize instead of packs. Ended up going 2-2, which I am very happy with as an inaugural venture with the deck! I ended up dropping to 2 Inferno Titan to run 3 Lightning Bolts in the main, which saved my butt multiple times.
Match 1: 2-0 vs BW Tokens -- Hit some initial land d to throw them off tempo game 1, game 2 boarded out blood moon b/c they didn't actually run many duals. Instead added Bolt + Anger to clear tokens before my BBE/Titan pushes. Match 2: 2-0 vs Mono Green Stompy -- I actually felt quite bad about how this played out and the guy was visibly frustrated. Both games I kept him down to 1 land while I ramped out Titan. Literally cascaded into Stone Rain back-to-back. Match 3: 1-2 vs Burn -- Game 1 was a blow-out, but Game 2 I nailed the tempo control. Popped his Sacred Foundry early, then by the time he got another dual land I was able to drop Blood Moon to lock him out of his Helix/Charm. Game 3 I feel I lost to myself, having to mull down to 5 and no good turn 1-2 plays. Match 4: 1-2 vs Naya Zoo -- Game 1 I had a good start, but didn't have enough pressure to keep his board clear. His list ran Thalia which out-tempo'd me. Game 2 I sandbagged Anger until he had over-extended, chump blocking with my Elf/Bird to stall, which he couldn't recover from. Game 3 I lost to a misplay, where I should have just cast my Anger to buy time but instead I tried to wait it out for more value.
As mentioned above, I'm really pleased with this given that it was my first go-around. The clearest upgrade path is definitely lands - the Cinder Glade ended up being a costly play in my opening hand for both the loss matches. Jadelight Ranger also proved to be a stellar card, delivering immediate value even if she was bolted (whereas Tireless Tracker would have ended up being a dud.
I am also considering running 2x Siege-Gang Commander in the place of 2x Pia and Kiran Nalaar. P&K offers a little more reach, but SGC can get you more bodies and up to 4x instances of 2 dmg (compared to P&K's 2).
Thanks, @The FLuff! I'm looking forward to it hehe. In my initial playtests, it's an incredibly fun deck to pilot.
Two quick questions on my end:
For the Chalice of the Void, should I try to rush it out on Turn 2 to try and block 1 CMC spells (Bolt, Spike, Guide, etc.) or hold until I can block 2 CMC (Eidolons, Skullcracks, Destructive Revelry, etc.)? Probably a noob question. I'm leaning toward CMC to throw them off tempo while I get my land destruction machine up and running.
I'm on the fence about Damping Sphere. It can certainly be powerful in a variety of match-ups, but it's going to hose my own BBE unless I have an extra 1 floating. We have enough ramp that this may be a non issue. What do you think?
Had a very successful prerelease (both for gameplay and trading hehe) so I was able to pick up several missing tools. The biggest opportunities to me are still the Trackers + phasing out some of my budget dual land choices.
My local meta tends to have a lot of Humans, Burn, Tron, Eldrazi, and Hatebear/Taxes decks. There's occasionally some storm/KCI type decks running around. Based on this, what do you guys think of my MB and/or SB choices below?
We're essentially a Prison-style deck that uses Stone Rain/Molten Rain/Blood Moon to stall our opponents out and crush them with big threats. As I mentioned in my previous post, BBE has a roughly 40% of hitting a dud card with 10 ramp cards vs. 18 or so non-ramp cards with 3 CMC or less (the actual percentage is going to fluctuate based on your list/what you've already drawn, obviously). I can't help but think that slot could be better filled by something else, even if we haven't figured out what it is yet.
B/G Rock BG | Jund BGR | Mardu Pyromancer BRW | Ponza RG | Burn RW
Similarly, I'm considering Tarmogoyf MB to lower the curve. Easily a 4/5 at least for 2 CMC. Possibly remove BBE, as I don't think she's really that good in our deck...cascading into a mana dork or Utopia Sprawl feels bad and they make up ~40-50% of the possible targets she can hit. That's a pretty high degree of variance.
I'd definitely keep the big hitters though. It's why we run 10 dedicated ramp sources in the deck. A resolved Inferno Titan has to be answered before you untap, as it can spiral very quickly out of hand.
B/G Rock BG | Jund BGR | Mardu Pyromancer BRW | Ponza RG | Burn RW
There was 1st Place finish from a Ponza list in the SCG Charlotte Open! Wahoo! REALLY tempting me to resleeve this bad boy after that and seeing a guy from my LGS get 10th @ at SCG Dallas. :-D
B/G Rock BG | Jund BGR | Mardu Pyromancer BRW | Ponza RG | Burn RW
Something else worth considering may be Experimental Frenzy. We tend to have plenty of mana to play with and can get to the point where we're top decking anyway pretty fast especially if you consider that we're close to heckbent by turn 3 with an ideal hand (T1: Land + Dork, T2: Land, Sprawl,Land D/BloodMoon, T3: Land + Threat). Dropping Frenzy on T3/T4 could give us a bit more acceleration.
B/G Rock BG | Jund BGR | Mardu Pyromancer BRW | Ponza RG | Burn RW
B/G Rock BG | Jund BGR | Mardu Pyromancer BRW | Ponza RG | Burn RW
RE: Pia and Kiran - at worst, it's a lingering souls effect attached to a 2/2. But where it really shines is with Tireless Tracker. You can sacrifice clues to P&Ks ability, which mitigates the effects of flooding out.
B/G Rock BG | Jund BGR | Mardu Pyromancer BRW | Ponza RG | Burn RW
The list itself is pretty close to stock. None of the newer Dragon tech.
B/G Rock BG | Jund BGR | Mardu Pyromancer BRW | Ponza RG | Burn RW
Take Mardu or GBx for an example - K Command, collective brutality,etc. all offer a variety of situational uses.
I've seen some lists for Naya Ponza go around that I think solve this to some extent, though I've not had the chance to test it personally
B/G Rock BG | Jund BGR | Mardu Pyromancer BRW | Ponza RG | Burn RW
While still viable, the deck is not without it's challenges. Blood Moon is a little bit less effective than it used to be, with decks packing more basics due to Field of Ruin, GQ, and now Assassin's Trophy. But, it can still act as a bit of a tempo play, since they have to take a turn to deal with it, which can be especially effective when backed with land destruction.
It can have a bit of a hard time with Humans, since MB removal is quite limited, and it is susceptible to disruption (targeted discard and/or removal against the mana dorks). When it executes its plan it works REALLY well... but when we get to the top deck war, its harder b/c other decks are better at this then us.
Hope this helps!
B/G Rock BG | Jund BGR | Mardu Pyromancer BRW | Ponza RG | Burn RW
Thanks! I hadn't thought about the Tracker synergy but that makes a ton of sense. Previously, I had been running Jadelight Rangers instead of Tracker because I didn't have any. HOWEVER, I just picked up my playset + my remaining dual lands while at GP DFW last weekend, so I ought to be able to take advantage of that now! Excited to take this out for a whirl again :-D
B/G Rock BG | Jund BGR | Mardu Pyromancer BRW | Ponza RG | Burn RW
My thinking is that 5 CMC isn't too difficult to achieve, it creates more bodies, and can potentially deal more direct damage (and cheaper per sting) than P&K.
B/G Rock BG | Jund BGR | Mardu Pyromancer BRW | Ponza RG | Burn RW
Hehe yes I did! Even with people calling me a degenerate for blowing up their lands.
What I'll most likely do is get 1x Stomping Ground with my store credit, then wait/trade for another. I'd like to also get the Trackers, but Jadelight has been doing well enough that I can stall for the price to fall further.
B/G Rock BG | Jund BGR | Mardu Pyromancer BRW | Ponza RG | Burn RW
Match 1: 2-0 vs BW Tokens -- Hit some initial land d to throw them off tempo game 1, game 2 boarded out blood moon b/c they didn't actually run many duals. Instead added Bolt + Anger to clear tokens before my BBE/Titan pushes.
Match 2: 2-0 vs Mono Green Stompy -- I actually felt quite bad about how this played out and the guy was visibly frustrated. Both games I kept him down to 1 land while I ramped out Titan. Literally cascaded into Stone Rain back-to-back.
Match 3: 1-2 vs Burn -- Game 1 was a blow-out, but Game 2 I nailed the tempo control. Popped his Sacred Foundry early, then by the time he got another dual land I was able to drop Blood Moon to lock him out of his Helix/Charm. Game 3 I feel I lost to myself, having to mull down to 5 and no good turn 1-2 plays.
Match 4: 1-2 vs Naya Zoo -- Game 1 I had a good start, but didn't have enough pressure to keep his board clear. His list ran Thalia which out-tempo'd me. Game 2 I sandbagged Anger until he had over-extended, chump blocking with my Elf/Bird to stall, which he couldn't recover from. Game 3 I lost to a misplay, where I should have just cast my Anger to buy time but instead I tried to wait it out for more value.
As mentioned above, I'm really pleased with this given that it was my first go-around. The clearest upgrade path is definitely lands - the Cinder Glade ended up being a costly play in my opening hand for both the loss matches. Jadelight Ranger also proved to be a stellar card, delivering immediate value even if she was bolted (whereas Tireless Tracker would have ended up being a dud.
I am also considering running 2x Siege-Gang Commander in the place of 2x Pia and Kiran Nalaar. P&K offers a little more reach, but SGC can get you more bodies and up to 4x instances of 2 dmg (compared to P&K's 2).
B/G Rock BG | Jund BGR | Mardu Pyromancer BRW | Ponza RG | Burn RW
Two quick questions on my end:
B/G Rock BG | Jund BGR | Mardu Pyromancer BRW | Ponza RG | Burn RW
My local meta tends to have a lot of Humans, Burn, Tron, Eldrazi, and Hatebear/Taxes decks. There's occasionally some storm/KCI type decks running around. Based on this, what do you guys think of my MB and/or SB choices below?
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
1 Bloodstained Mire (substitute for missing WHeath)
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Stomping Ground
1 Sheltered Thicket
1 Cinder Glade
1 Mountain
8 Forest
Creatures - 20
4 Arbor Elf
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Jadelight Ranger (still a substitute for Tracker)
4 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Glorybringer
1 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
2 Inferno Titan
1 Courser of Kruphix
4 Blood Moon
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Stone Rain
3 Molten Rain
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
3 Damping Sphere
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Sweltering Suns
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Shatterstorm
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Chalice of the Void (don't have/can't find Trinispheres)
B/G Rock BG | Jund BGR | Mardu Pyromancer BRW | Ponza RG | Burn RW