Brian DeMars posted a list on CFB that is essentially a brew with The Gitrog Monster and Dakmor Salvage for a "oops I win" mid-range combo deck. What is the consensus on his list?
It's been discussed here before. I believe the consensus was that it was a little clunky? Here's the last I saw of the discussion but there are more in the past if you search the thread. I haven't tried Gitrog yet so I have no opinion.
I would trim the 2nd mountain in the mainboard for a 2nd ghost quarter. I would also trim a fetchland if I REALLY had to hedge towards the tron match up. The sideboard bog can easily become the 3rd ghost quarter however. You have 2 grafdiggers cage and sorcery speed bog is often just garbage. You would be better off with Ravenous Trap if you really want that graveyard dump.
That actually might be a good idea -- I'll give it a shot. I figure it might even give me a better hedge against other midrange and big mana decks, and Death's Shadow decks as well. RE: Bojuka Bog I put it in my sideboard for some SB hate against Living End, since Grafdigger's Cage doesn't do anything against them.
Goyf is just a fairly big guy for an easy to use casting cost. While Goyf can get big, you don't usually need more than a 4/5 to represent a big threat and 4 card types is pretty common. The finding late game gas with Crusher is solid and outside of not having the space for him, I don't remember what I had against the card years ago.
To be fair, we are trying to get RRR by turn three consistently, so RR shouldn't be too hard. I think the biggest advantage Goyf has over Crusher is that it comes down earlier which is hugely important in a faster format and it can already be out of bolt range (despite bolt not being run much these days). Other than that, I agree, 4/5 is all you need, but anecdotally I have won several games off the back of a 10/10+ Crusher that just hit a pocket of lands and some removal to get rid of their blockers. If you do end up giving Crusher another shot, let me know how it goes. I traded in a bunch of cards I never use and ended up trading into some Goyfs so I may try 4 Goyfs + 4 Crushers for a more aggressive leaning list.
I'm glad the 3 color list worked for you. It looks more streamlined and sounds like it worked well for you. Faithless Looting has been on of the biggest beneficial cards for Jund Loam lists. The early game filtering is important for digging for Assaults and stacking your graveyard. It is no Ponder but without access to Blue, it's about as good as it gets. It is a pretty miserable top deck but as long as Loam is online and you have lands in hand, it basically reads "Draw two cards."
It was way more streamlined and I love how painless the manabase is now. I might end up trying out 4 Wooded Foothills, 3 Bloodstained Mire and 1 Verdant Catacombs instead, but I'm happy with it otherwise (and removing the Overgrown Tomb as I mentioned last post). As a mostly blue player, Looting doesn't feel great to me but it might just be a necessary evil. In that case, I think I'd mostly want to see it later to dig further as I wouldn't want to loot away any disruption/interaction in the first couple turns so maybe 2 is where it should stay. I've thought also about a straight up draw with something like Painful Truths but it's much, much slower.
2 Lightning Bolts seems really odd to me. I've always been of the opinion that you either want 4 of them or it isn't something your deck needs. It's the most efficient damage-to-mana ratio burn spell. Thoughtseize could get moved to the 'board to get the other 2 Bolts in the main. Other than that minor gripe, I really like your list.
Coming from Grixis Shadow, 2 bolts has been fine in both cases. It's not really great as removal right now as Push performs much better in most cases. The reach is a good thing to have, but not sure 4 is necessary. I could try out 4 bolts main and put the TS in the sideboard, but I feel like seize is a better MD card because it can get rid of problematic permanents or spells before they hit the board.
Should have at least 3 ghost quarter in your 75 and tron should be a bye as a result. You can always your ancient Grudge or board in some needles for relic of Progenitus. Between abrupt decay k command and pulse you have some mainboard answers but I would love to see some additional decay for that exact reason. It will give you more mainboard answers to non creatures which is really where we struggle. Assault usually wipes the board itself.
3 GQ in the 75 could probably help, but I'm not certain what I would remove from my SB to fit them in, or how I could still have enough lands/colors in my mana base for them. Any suggestions? I do have 2 extra Decays in SB, and I feel 3 is probably fine for my meta. I actually found I never really needed to board them in at my shop, but that could change.
Round 1: vs B Zombies 2-0 Win
This was a kid at his first modern event with a deck of zombies from Amonkhet.
Game 1: He gets a pretty aggressive start but I rip a Maelstrom Pulse and remove most of his board. I land a Huntmaster of the Fells next turn and use the wolf token as a chump blocker for one of his smaller creatures. He makes me sac my Huntmaster with a Cartouche, but I pull a Seismic Assault and Countryside Crusher and ride them to win game 1.
Game 2: He didn't do much this game as he apparently kept drawing lands the whole game. I removed whatever threats he had and Seismic Assault and Life from the Loam give me the win.
Record: 1 - 0
Round 2: vs. Affinity 2-1 Win
Game 1: I ended up having to mull to 6, which wasn't so bad since I did have early interaction that kept me in the game. Used a T1 Thoughtseize to rip a Mox Opal (which was between that or a Master of Etherium, but I have more creature removal than artifact removal MB, and I wanted to slow him down so I could catch up). Used Ghost Quarter once to take him off some manlands, then landed a Crusher. He got a Master on the board and I had no removal in hand, so he swung in and I died.
Side-in: +2 Kitchen Finks, +1 Shatterstorm, +1 Ancient Grudge. Side-out: -2 Thoughtseize, -2 Faithless Looting
Game 2: I had a fairly solid opening hand and keep the 7. I think he had to mulligan this game at least once. He has a pretty slow hand but gets me down pretty low with a Vault Skirge and Cranial Plating while he get's to almost 30 life. I just end up removing whatever creatures he lands (even having to Shatterstorm an Ornithopter). He lands an Etched Champion which is problematic now that I've used my one card to remove it. I eventually get a Kitchen Finks which helps me stabilize a bit. I get a Raging Ravine and ride that with Crusher and Finks to win this game
Game 3: Pretty much the same story here. I think he had to mull to 4 on this one and still had a really slow hand. I end up Loaming a GQ to remove his manlands so they're not much of a threat to me, and I'm able to keep his stuff off the board for my 2 Finks to ride me to victory.
Record: 2 - 0
Round 3: vs GW Tron 0 - 2 Loss
This match up feels almost unwinnable with my list. Unless I can land an Assault early and miss their Relic of Progenitus or they just never find tron, I don't know how I win.
Game 1: I GQ a tower to slow him down so I can catch up with my slower hand. I Loam it back to GQ the next one, but he Relic's my graveyard the next turn. He spins his wheels a bit and finds tron, slams down Karn, which removes my Crusher. I remove Karn with a Pulse and next turn he gets an Ugin. I pull another Crusher and leave a fetch on the field in case he +1's his Ugin at the Crusher, hoping I can take Ugin down, but he gets a Wurmcoil next turn and that's practically game over for me after this. He ends up ulting Ugin and getting an Emrakul, the Promised End. I concede
Side in: I wasn't expecting any tron so I have nothing to really bring in.
Game 2: Almost the same story. I keep him off his lands for a bit with GQ and loam. I was able to get an Assault and Huntmaster down, but it wasn't enough as he ends up getting another Emrakul.
Record: 2 - 1
Round 3: vs. BW Eldrazi & Taxes 2 - 0 Win
Game 1: T1 IOK grabs me a Leonin Arbiter. He gets an Aether Vial on the board but I pull a Pulse and remove it. He's stuck on lands/colors so bad he has to GQ his own GQ to just get a second white. I get there with Crusher.
Side-in: I think this match up is already really good for my deck, so +1 Abrupt Decay, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Kolaghan's Command
Game 2: Almost the same story here. He never gets his second white mana, but anything he lands I have the removal and I win with Assault and Loam.
Record: 3 - 1
- Overall, I think I got lucky in the unfortunate way of my opponents not drawing well. It doesn't feel good, but I think my removal suite certainly shined and was definitely a part of my victory last night.
- I'm happy with my MB for the most part. I configured it such that it's basically your basic Jund deck with Assaults, Loams, and Crushers. The amount of removal and permanent removal worked really well. I'm not sure how I'd change it at the moment.
- This mana base worked SO SO well. Other than the occasional turns where I was stuck on 3 lands (which is mostly fine), I had no problems with color fixing or anything. I'm sure I could tweak the numbers a bit more -- I added a second Stomping Ground instead of a second Blood Crypt last minute due to concerns about green mana and I'm thinking of testing out removing the Overgrown Tomb since I hardly ever grab it -- but I'm very happy with this setup.
- 2 Cycling lands felt fine. They are really great in case of some graveyard hate, but they're usually a little to late for that. I've had some extra utility in using them to double loam and finish a game.
- I don't think Faithless Looting has been too great. I practically always side it out and almost never want to see it. It can be nice to help dig for stuff at times and it feels great to discard two Loam's, but it feels bad as a topdeck and isn't as useful. I might end up taking it out but I'm struggling because I think I might need that filtering
- Countryside Crusher was truly great all night for me. People definitely recognize the danger he can present in the deck. I think he's better than goyf in the deck in a couple ways:
It's a stretch, but I've found him to somewhat be a Delver of Secrets/Dark Confidant hybrid. If he reveals something off the top I don't want, I can just fetch it away given I have one. If I have two on the field, this represents the ability to grow them even bigger. Second, he basically filters us to the gas we need in a game. In the late game the last thing you'd wanna draw is a land, and Crusher just puts those in the yard where we want them.
It's a weak argument, but from only my deck, goyf can be a 6/7 at best (land, instant, sorcery, creature, enchantment) but is more likely to just be a 3/4 since I run 5 creatures and 4 enchantments. Crusher gets way bigger just by playing our deck through fetches, GQ'ing, Assault, Dredging, and even Looting.
Since Fatal Push is easily the most used removal in the format, Crusher is better in the way that he's immune to a non-revolted push. This is a minor advantage, but something to think about.
However, Crusher does come down a turn later, which is a big big disadvantage, especially in terms of tempo.
- Kolaghan's Command didn't show up too much during my games, but I'm still willing to test it out. With how much removal there is in the format and only having 5 creatures, Kommand is basically a 6th creature, a 7th discard, a MB artifact hate, and another Assault activation. It seemed okay when I did draw it, but I'm willing to try it out more.
- I wish I could find more turn 3 Assaults
Thanks for testing it out! It definitely is helpful to have someone more familiar with the deck than I am give a report.
- RE: Mana Base: I've played a league and mostly testing out the deck in lobbies on MTGO, and I feel like my mana wasn't terrible, but even the relatively small white splash made it much more tough to get the right colors on time based on the last configuration I posted. It felt much less smooth than any 3 color deck I've played. I really like KotR but I think I ought to go Naya if I really want to play her. That said, I've been testing a straight Jund Loam list that I'll list below.
- I haven't tried Collective Brutality in the deck yet, but I've been trying to find some space for them to give it a shot. They're in my sideboard at the very least.
- I think I'm starting to agree on Shadow of the Grave too. Like I said before, it's generally a card I just end up discarding to Faithless Looting. The plan to get back a card from Thoughtseize also just seems bad to me, but it could be how people set up their MB.
- I think Countryside Crusher is a fine beater/alt-win condition, but do you think Goyf would be better? Crusher can reasonably get much much bigger than a goyf in my list.
Here's what I'm trying out. I wanna try to get some fastlands in there but I'm not sure where to add them or what to remove.
@Capt. Nick I was definitely leaning toward 4/4/1 but never got around to adjusting my manabase and I mentioned before about removing a Godless Shrine for another Rx shock. I think I'll add in the 2 Lightning Bolts and add the 2 Shadow of the Grave back in and see how they keep performing. I totally forgot about Sejiri Steppe and definitely will add it MB as a tutor target for KotR. Bojuka Bog deserves a spot in my SB too for other graveyard decks in addition to my Grafdigger's Cages.
Yeah, I agree. I think the problem I'm trying to solve with BoP could be better served solving by having a better mana base? I could use some critique on that as well. I have some cards I could trade in for goyfs or Bobs so those could possibly replace the birds, or I could add more removal or discard or something else entirely. My current 75 is
@inwiththenoose - I think having the utility of Ghost Quarter in the MB is very beneficial against most decks in the format. There are tons of utility lands in Modern and having an easy out to things like man-lands or Tron can't be understated.
Fair point. My concession was to the fact that I'm a Jund + small white splash so an extra colored land might be more helpful than a GQ. I'll try out both and see if the extra colored land helps at all. Other than GQ, Tectonic Edge, and Raging Ravine, what other utility lands would be useful in this deck? I've thought about adding in something like Slayers' Stronghold as a tutor target for KotR but it seems a little slow/clunky.
I don't know if BoP is worthwhile. If you have a hand with Assault and Loam, you're already in a solid position. I don't think a turn 2 Assault does more than allow you to stabilize a bit earlier but it's not going to auto win you a game on turn 2, for example. It might be worth giving it a shot for a handful of games if you think it might work better but it falls into the "win-more" category for me.
I played some on MTGO last night testing out BoP and while I don't think "win-more" is quite the right category, I'm definitely coming to the conclusion that I'd probably want a more "action" card than BoP. I actually really like it turn 1 as it really helps smooth out the curve/color fixing. Other than that, I never ever want to see it after turn 1 and I have all my colors. I'm trying to figure out what to replace them with now.
I think, per Mazeron, a 1-of Huntmaster MD is super useful. Lifegain against some decks is super useful, the extra blocker, and the ability to kill a small creature and your opp are actually quite good in most circumstances I've been able to play them.
@Krond2 Thanks for your reports! I've cut down to 2 Shadows of the Grave too and thinking about cutting them both. They're amazing when drawn after you have your engine online, as you can easily combo most decks down in 1 turn with a loam + grave, but I feel like I end up discarding them to Faithless Looting more often than not.
Playing a 4 color deck definitely is challenging, in this deck most likely even more so, but it is not something I would just write off. I dont remember that many games where I got manascrewed so heavily that I couldnt put up a fight at least. The manabase in a 4 color deck has to be perfect, that is the challenge.
And I for one just love to be greedy and I love my KotRs, especially post board they can be a major factor in a game, because creature removal just ísnt very good against us.
Agreed, having 3R on turn 3 along with at least one G,W, and B can be tough. I've decided to go more in on fetches with red and get all my Rx shocks out first to make sure I have the mana available for Assault and whatever my hand dictates. I'm thinking I might remove the Godless Shrine and Temple Garden for another Rx shock I'm not entirely sure that's a good idea in a 4c deck. Also moving the Ghost Quarter to the SB to only bring in for more grindy match ups.
I love my KotRs too and I don't wanna give up the discard and removal in black so I'm gonna stick with 4c for now.
The idea of including collective brutality is very tempting. The synergy it has with basically everthing we are trying to accomplish cant be denied and I am going to test out 2 copies instead of the 2 Thoughtseize I was running, but loosing 2 life in combination with the damage dealt by my manabase always left a bitter taste.
I've actually been thinking about taking Thoughtseize out since the 4c mana base is especially painful. I was thinking either Collective Brutality or Bolt in those spots. I like that bolt gives us reach and removal for 1 mana, and mykatdied gives a good argument for it as well. Brutality gives us a little bit more flexibility, another pesudo-IOK/TS, and is a house against burn. I'll test out both and see how they do.
Acutally I do not really like either of those 2 creatures. Birds would make the deck more explosive, but we need some time to assemble our value engine regardless. Drawing a Bird in later stages off the game does not feel very good either, it can just be discarded to faithless looting but thats not really why you want to include a card, except for loam and lands. We can not take advantage of playing mana dorks as CoCo or Chord decks can. Playing bird also makes removal better, cards that would have been kind of dead otherwise.
Regarding the crusher, I do think that its just an overcosted beater that gets blocked all day by anything.
But I am not that experienced with this deck as the majority of the people in this thread, maybe someone has already tried out birds and can give you a better feedback.
I think making the deck more explosive is probably a bigger benefit that we'd think. Getting our engine online ASAP feels like it can really pull us back into the game if we're behind. But I totally agree, drawing a birds later in the game is possibly the worst thing we could draw. Maybe that is balanced by getting our engine on sooner so we can just dredge it anyway? I'm gonna test them out in place of Crusher and see how they do.
I've been thinking about my color fixing and Capt. Nick's comment on whether we can run 4 colors. I was thinking about replacing my Countryside Crushers with 4 Birds of Paradise (and removing 1 Shadow of the Grave) because 1) we can power out Seismic Assault, and other stuff, at least a turn earlier and 2) fix colors better. Has anyone tried this? Mostly I'm just trying to justify playing KoTR in the more Jund version because I really like the options in black.
Hi all, I've been thinking about buying into this to have another deck that I feel like I could brew a bit with myself. How is it in the current meta? I'd go with a build more like the one Mazeron has listed above. Is there a consensus on Grim Flayer? is Countryside Crusher just bad?