Can anyone convince me to run Goblin Guide over Mogg Fanatic and/or 2 of devastating summons over hordeling outburst in my 8-wack list? Just looking for a small bit of input. Also looking for a replacement for rending volley in the sideboard but am unsure. I've just never had to side it in.
3 Blood Moon
2 Sudden Shock
3 Smash to smithereens (Chalice 1 blanks artifact hate if we take Shattering Spree)
3 Skullcrack
2 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Rending Volley(replaceable?)
Cut 2 Chieftain and 2 Hordeling Outburst for 4 Goblin guide - no questions asked. You want as few three drops as possible, let alone ones that leave you very susceptible to blow outs. Hordeling Outburst has no place in modern goblins - something like Mardu tokens MAYBE, but not in goblins.
Hi guys, I have been reading this thread for some time and I would like to have your opinion on a friend's deck.
He is playing a budget 8-whack list (without the guide) and I would like to have your inputs on it:
He really likes the sensation gorger and he had good results with it, a lot of time the opponent didn't read the card right.
However I feel like it is too slow to be mainboard and will do nothing most of the time against a good opponent.
Other than that, we just added the devastating summons mainboard, but I fear that with five 3 drops, having 2 devastating summons could be detrimental...
The sideboard seems alright, I don't know if there's something essential that is missing?
Thank you in advance for your advices!
On your sideboard - you don't want guttural response. There are no MUST resolve spells that cost more than 2 - that card is better spent on something that is going to do damage.
In your list I'd try running 3 Piledrivers, 2 Chieftain, and dropping to one Devastating Summons (2 of those bad boys in your hand at the same time likely means you lose).
We talked to death about Krenko's Command many months back and I just don't think there is ever a good reason to run it over more goblins.
You should 100% NEVER bring in Sword of Light and Shadow against burn (if your creature is removed in response to the equip trigger with either Searing spell you will ABSOLUTELY lose that game) and Dragon's Claw is not necessary. The best weapon you have against the burn matchup is practice and the ability to kill Kor Firewalkers if they run them - but with goblin grenade you should be able to beat burn every time.
Maybe a little bit Chieftain heavy for my taste in the 75 but overall it's good to see someone get there!
Four does seem like a lot of Chieftains, but do you guys notice that almost every deck that has placed high has Chieftains in them?
I definitely like Chieftain, I just don't know that I like 4 in the 75.
Goblins has a placement problem because 'serious' players don't take the deck seriously. If the deck had a better reputation among grinders and spikes you would see more placements. Because of this people take any list that places as gospel and are afraid to move off of certain card choices. The power of this list is here, players just don't want to play it because 'LOL Goblins'.
I played our wonderful tribe against soul sisters and lantern control last night and it performed wonderfully! The deck was so fast I was able to whoop U/W soul sisters even though they gained 20+ life. I'm truly loving this deck.
Any chance we can move this to tier 2 modern?
Nice win against the sisters!
The modern tiers are based solely on how popular a given deck is and how often it's played - not how powerful the deck is in a vacuum.
Goblin guide is one of the best, if not the best, one drops in this deck. The card advantage is not that important. If they don't hit a land, we also know what's on top of their deck and can play around it.
I can't stress this point enough - Goblin Guide is BY FAR the best 1 drop in the deck. You have a hand with 3 guides, a grenade, and 2 lands? Enjoy your turn three kill.
This is my current list. I prefer a maximum of haste creatures. since there is only 1 eldrazi in my meta, i am happy to cut 4x Mogg War Marshal for those 4 Spike Jesters. Black splash is free and doesn't hurt. I also play no lords goblins. Allows me to play 18 land. Went 3-0 tonight, won against Tron, Small Zoo and Scapeshift. Might cut 1 Reckless Bushwhacker for 1 more SSG. Love the tempo and i found it pretty hard to always cast Bushwhacker. Sideboard was just a throw-together and is not near to perfect. greetings to all goblin players.
I have found Frenzied Goblin underwhelming. I might cut it for an extra SSG. Not sure if 3 SSG MD is too much.
In the SB I would have a combination of discard like Inquisition of Kozilek and/or Thoughtseize to fight off sweepers and life gain post-board games. Also Blood Moon could wreck some decks like control and Jund/Abzan. With SSG a T2 Blood Moon can be GG. If I play Blood Moon, I would play 1 basic Swamp.
My only advice is to BE CAREFUL with SSG - if you're powering out a 2cmc creature on turn 1 and it get's bolted that's a hard 2 for 1 for your opponent. SSG absolutely does work in certain contexts and against certain strategies, just beware of huge blowouts that become possible. High risk, high reward!
I agree that 3 Reckless Bushwhacker and less chieftains is the way to move forward. I think the 8whack mono-red Goblin core is pretty much solid, having everyone tweek it to their preference. I really think Goblins can have shot at being a Tier 2 deck.
My biggest question: how do we sideboard against the Tier 1 decks: Jund, Affinity, Abzan CoCo, Burn, UW Eldrazi, Tron?
Especcially what card do you take out for what? Do we play Blood Moon?
Jund -
Out: 3 Piledriver (almost auto side out against bolt decks), 1 Mogg Fanatic (low impact)
In: 2 Dismember (for Kalitas, Tasigur, Goyf, Scooze), 2 Pillar of Flame (Finks)
Affinity -
Out: 4 Foundry Street Denizen (he cannot profitably attack into a memnite, this is bad), 1 Stingscourger (low impact), 1 Chieftain (a little slow)
In: 2 Reality Hemorrhage (Etched, some players play Kor Firewalker), 2 Shattering Spree (the best), 2 Smash to Smithereens (save for man lands or try to trap ravager)
Abzan CoCo - note: this matchup is difficult. They have tons of main deck lifegain, they can often threaten the combo, they clog up the ground. I personally want to take more of a control role in the matchup here as we have the tools to prevent them from going off. Also difficult is that there are many different builds. The key here is to try to win with big Piledriver swings and hoping to avoid lifegain hate. If they play and activate a Gavony Township you're probably going to lose. Good luck!
Out: 4 Foundry (LOTS of creatures running around means our x/1 friend will have a hard time getting through), 1 Stingscourger (sloooow, and tempo advantages aren't great here), 1 Goblin Grenade (you need a little bit more of a board presence in this matchup and they run FAR less removal so you don't want to be as suicidal with your board)
In: 2 Grafdigger's Cage (completely shuts down the combo, shuts down chord of calling, shuts down Collected Company, shuts down finks), 2 Reality Hemorrhage (Kor Firewalker, ugh), 2 Pillar of Flames (more finks hate, also hits Voice of Resurgence well if they run that)
UW Eldrazi - (note: this deck is going to look very different in 3 weeks if it continues to exist at all)
Out: 4 Foundry (x/1 is baaaad here)
In: 2 Dismember, 1 Stingscourger, 1 Pillar of Flame (extra burn)
Tron - I don't have much for Tron right now. I don't see it at all because of Eldrazi, and our main gameplan is so good there's not point in dedicating sideboard slots to it. Play around pyroclasm by sandbagging your hand, burn them out the rest of the way once Wurmcoil is down.
Out: 2 Reckless (less able to allow you to sandbag your hand because of surge)
In: 2 Pillar of Flame (extra burn)
I don't personally play blood moon, but others do.
Just looking at all the different versions of goblins floating around is a lot to take in. Is there a link somewhere for goblins(and one for gobots) that lists the following?
1) An UPDATED stock goblin (or gobot) list that incorporates Reckless Bushwacker. The ones on the primer do not include this very important fellow anywhere
2) The ideal number of one drops, two drops, etc. This would be helpful for experimenting with different cards (I.E. taking out Mogg War Marshall and trying out Burning Tree Emissary)
Thanks.
I second that a primer update is needed. I'll write something up on Gobots if needed.
For someone who is working with Gobots specifically, I'd appreciate a dedicated primer.
Okay well I'll get to work on one. And, I just looked up the requirements to take over a primer. This may take longer than I thought to produce a quality primer with graphics and videos now that I play on MTGO. I will go about this two ways. Add to this one or just make my own sub primer within the competitive thread.
I had already tried to take over this primer, you've gotta go through Franx. He said he'd be updating it about 4/5 months ago and it never happened.
So i was searching stuff for gobots/8whack on gatherer and found hammerhand, is it any good as a 2x? It removes a blocker and can act as a mini bushwhacker #9-10... i'd love to give signal pest haste! Also can do some damage with burning-tree emissary when we have no whacks...
Hmm, an interesting card for sure. The only thing I'm exceedingly wary about here is the rate at which we're getting in damage compared to it's mana cost. Even assuming 2 unblocked hits with hammerhand enchanting, you're only getting in 2 damage for R (we can't assume the creature is unblockable, it merely shuts off 1 blocker). That's a REALLY poor rate when we're looking to maximize damage output.
2 Caverns, 1 Stomping Ground for some sideboard splash, 8 fetches and the rest mountains. Thinning is always worth it to me if I'm looking to out aggro someone. :]
A lot of questions on the fetch lands issue. Someone busted out the math on fetches over basic lands and determined the inclusion only decreased the chance to draw a land was 2%. Meaning, the life lost was more relevant than the reduced chance to draw a land. Fetches are best used to color splash for MB and in some rare cases SB only, which can appeal to us.
Yep - this. Having a painless manabase (if possible - you REALLY have to weigh how much you want to be mono red) is a huge boon in modern right now. Fetching for deck thinning purposes does VERY little until you're at a 50/50 fetch/basic ratio.
On Cavern - do not run cavern. Cavern doesn't cast goblin grenades or lightning bolts.
On swiftspear over GOBLIN GUIDE - this is ridiculous. Goblin Guide is the best 1 drop in the deck, and I'd rather see people cutting FSDs or War Marshalls, and you shouldn't cut either of those. We run very few non creature spells, which makes Swiftspear almost a vanilla 1/2 haste creature that you can't sac to grenade. This is... not good.
On whether go-bots should be it's own thread - my vote is yes. It's confusing for players coming into the thread seeing 30 different builds to pick from, and half of them are running memnites and signal pests. I think splitting the threads would help to clear things up.
There are a whole bunch of lists in the last few pages, I'd start there. Any specific questions you have about the deck? Here is my list if you're looking for some sort of reference: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/10-03-16-mono-red-goblins/
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What on earth are you playing instead of Guide that you're choosing to purposefully exclude guide?
Cut 2 Chieftain and 2 Hordeling Outburst for 4 Goblin guide - no questions asked. You want as few three drops as possible, let alone ones that leave you very susceptible to blow outs. Hordeling Outburst has no place in modern goblins - something like Mardu tokens MAYBE, but not in goblins.
On your sideboard - you don't want guttural response. There are no MUST resolve spells that cost more than 2 - that card is better spent on something that is going to do damage.
We talked to death about Krenko's Command many months back and I just don't think there is ever a good reason to run it over more goblins.
You should 100% NEVER bring in Sword of Light and Shadow against burn (if your creature is removed in response to the equip trigger with either Searing spell you will ABSOLUTELY lose that game) and Dragon's Claw is not necessary. The best weapon you have against the burn matchup is practice and the ability to kill Kor Firewalkers if they run them - but with goblin grenade you should be able to beat burn every time.
I definitely like Chieftain, I just don't know that I like 4 in the 75.
Goblins has a placement problem because 'serious' players don't take the deck seriously. If the deck had a better reputation among grinders and spikes you would see more placements. Because of this people take any list that places as gospel and are afraid to move off of certain card choices. The power of this list is here, players just don't want to play it because 'LOL Goblins'.
Maybe a little bit Chieftain heavy for my taste in the 75 but overall it's good to see someone get there!
Nice win against the sisters!
The modern tiers are based solely on how popular a given deck is and how often it's played - not how powerful the deck is in a vacuum.
I can't stress this point enough - Goblin Guide is BY FAR the best 1 drop in the deck. You have a hand with 3 guides, a grenade, and 2 lands? Enjoy your turn three kill.
My only advice is to BE CAREFUL with SSG - if you're powering out a 2cmc creature on turn 1 and it get's bolted that's a hard 2 for 1 for your opponent. SSG absolutely does work in certain contexts and against certain strategies, just beware of huge blowouts that become possible. High risk, high reward!
I like Relic for Living End, Goryo's, Bubble Hulk, and Snapcaster decks.
I bring the extra Stingscourger in against Living End, and Eldrazi.
Current list for reference: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/10-03-16-mono-red-goblins/
My sideboard (mono red build):
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Dismember
2 Pillar of Flame
2 Reality Hemorrhage
1 Singscourger
Jund -
Out: 3 Piledriver (almost auto side out against bolt decks), 1 Mogg Fanatic (low impact)
In: 2 Dismember (for Kalitas, Tasigur, Goyf, Scooze), 2 Pillar of Flame (Finks)
Affinity -
Out: 4 Foundry Street Denizen (he cannot profitably attack into a memnite, this is bad), 1 Stingscourger (low impact), 1 Chieftain (a little slow)
In: 2 Reality Hemorrhage (Etched, some players play Kor Firewalker), 2 Shattering Spree (the best), 2 Smash to Smithereens (save for man lands or try to trap ravager)
Abzan CoCo - note: this matchup is difficult. They have tons of main deck lifegain, they can often threaten the combo, they clog up the ground. I personally want to take more of a control role in the matchup here as we have the tools to prevent them from going off. Also difficult is that there are many different builds. The key here is to try to win with big Piledriver swings and hoping to avoid lifegain hate. If they play and activate a Gavony Township you're probably going to lose. Good luck!
Out: 4 Foundry (LOTS of creatures running around means our x/1 friend will have a hard time getting through), 1 Stingscourger (sloooow, and tempo advantages aren't great here), 1 Goblin Grenade (you need a little bit more of a board presence in this matchup and they run FAR less removal so you don't want to be as suicidal with your board)
In: 2 Grafdigger's Cage (completely shuts down the combo, shuts down chord of calling, shuts down Collected Company, shuts down finks), 2 Reality Hemorrhage (Kor Firewalker, ugh), 2 Pillar of Flames (more finks hate, also hits Voice of Resurgence well if they run that)
Burn -
Out: 1 Stingscourger, 3 Piledriver
In: 2 Reality Hemorrhage, 2 Pillar of Flame (more burn)
UW Eldrazi - (note: this deck is going to look very different in 3 weeks if it continues to exist at all)
Out: 4 Foundry (x/1 is baaaad here)
In: 2 Dismember, 1 Stingscourger, 1 Pillar of Flame (extra burn)
Tron - I don't have much for Tron right now. I don't see it at all because of Eldrazi, and our main gameplan is so good there's not point in dedicating sideboard slots to it. Play around pyroclasm by sandbagging your hand, burn them out the rest of the way once Wurmcoil is down.
Out: 2 Reckless (less able to allow you to sandbag your hand because of surge)
In: 2 Pillar of Flame (extra burn)
I don't personally play blood moon, but others do.
I had already tried to take over this primer, you've gotta go through Franx. He said he'd be updating it about 4/5 months ago and it never happened.
Hmm, an interesting card for sure. The only thing I'm exceedingly wary about here is the rate at which we're getting in damage compared to it's mana cost. Even assuming 2 unblocked hits with hammerhand enchanting, you're only getting in 2 damage for R (we can't assume the creature is unblockable, it merely shuts off 1 blocker). That's a REALLY poor rate when we're looking to maximize damage output.
Yep - this. Having a painless manabase (if possible - you REALLY have to weigh how much you want to be mono red) is a huge boon in modern right now. Fetching for deck thinning purposes does VERY little until you're at a 50/50 fetch/basic ratio.
On Cavern - do not run cavern. Cavern doesn't cast goblin grenades or lightning bolts.
On swiftspear over GOBLIN GUIDE - this is ridiculous. Goblin Guide is the best 1 drop in the deck, and I'd rather see people cutting FSDs or War Marshalls, and you shouldn't cut either of those. We run very few non creature spells, which makes Swiftspear almost a vanilla 1/2 haste creature that you can't sac to grenade. This is... not good.
On whether go-bots should be it's own thread - my vote is yes. It's confusing for players coming into the thread seeing 30 different builds to pick from, and half of them are running memnites and signal pests. I think splitting the threads would help to clear things up.
There are a whole bunch of lists in the last few pages, I'd start there. Any specific questions you have about the deck? Here is my list if you're looking for some sort of reference: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/10-03-16-mono-red-goblins/