@hespacc, I like the placement of 2 jeskai charm in electrolyze slots. Especially in a list where, as you stated, there is a lot of burn already ex: 4 Bolt, 4 Helix. Certainly gives the deck a stronger tempo/burn posture.
I'm not convinced by Jeskai Charm just yet. What does this deck tend to do at 3 mana?
B)Pass turn with Electrolyze.
C)Pass turn with bolt/Remand (or other 1+2 cmc combo).
D)Pass turn with Vendilion Clique
E)Pass turn with Snap (bolt in the yard).
Of all those options, in my opinion (B) is the weakest, unless you're getting a 2-for-1. I'd rather play any other option. Now we add on: F)Pass turn with Jeskai Charm, and it's as an alternative to (B) since most people want to replace Electrolyze with it. To me that still seems like the weakest turn 3 option, unless of course you get to tuck their Goyf or something with a fetch activation. So once again, it's situational, just like Electrolyze. Late game topdeck-mode, Electrolyze can at least replace itself, which could give you one of your bombs. Jeskai pumps your board (if you even have one late game), or flings 4 to the face, but it doesn't draw so if it didn't kill your opponent, you're still looking for a closer.
At the end of the day, the card really seems matchup dependent. If you're looking at Lingering Souls, mana dorks, and X/1's, for God's sake play Electrolyze. If BGx and Zoo and the like seem pervasive in your meta, Jeskai Charm will probably serve you better than Electrolyze. The charm is definitely not an auto include.
speaking of turn 3 geists into turn 4 elspeths..... are you just letting your opponents do whatever they want during those turns? seems like you can let your opponent go off as well.
Ideally you have your turn 1 and turn 2 plays, such as Bolt/Remand, or Bolt/Helix, or whatever. Some decks you'll have to keep mana up on turns 3 and 4 so you don't just lose, but there are other decks whose turns 3 and 4 aren't as strong as a Geist/Elspeth play. It's not a play you'll rush every game, but it is definitely viable against several decks.
That's it. is there anything obvious I am missing? I want wear/tear's but can't find room in my board... perhaps I'm over boarding in certain matchups? All kinds of advice or evaluations are greatly appreciated! thank you
Ever consider Lightning Helix? To the face is a 6 point swing and it hits anything bolt hits too; regardless, you get a nice 3 life buffer. It also plays great with Snappy, giving you staying power against burn and aggro, while also giving you an alternate plan of attack (throw burn at their face and flash it back with Snappy). Offsets the fetch-shock life payment pretty well too.
I also love Elspeth. Nothing quite like dropping her after a Geist and pump swing for 9. In most scenarios that's a 2 (TWO, count it) turn clock since most people take damage from lands.
Deck looks solid man, probably just need to tune it for your meta and personal tastes.
tested dig through time a bit yesterday, substituting my 3rd copy of cryptic command.
the card is very powerful and searching among 7 cards is a lot when you are in need of responses. sweeps away dead draws at instant timing.
only rely reliable in late game, though, since it is pretty heavy to cast and you really wanna have some lands and creatures in you gy not to exile other useful-to-flashback spells. the cards has a lot of potential but maybe is more suit for control and combo decks, while we would prefer to run a threat in that spot. i still wanna substitute my 3rd command, not because i don't love the card (i do) but because sometimes i feel like i play the deck too much like i play control, always waiting for my opponent to do something to reply back, but in late game i end up losing. i wanna be more aggressive like a midrange deck has to, so i want a threat in that spot. i am thinking about the 3rd restoration angel.
Mind posting your current list? I gave Resto Angels a try in mine and found Planeswalkers to be more potent, specifically Elspeth.
I can't help but think that delve is just not what this deck is looking for. I can't even begin to count how many games I've won by a hair because of Snappy and my graveyard. Deathrite Shaman and Rest in Peace and Scavenging Ooze were stuff of nightmares for me, if I didn't have removal around. I suppose you could choose to exile lands and any dead creatures for the delve cost since they aren't coming back, but the deck doesn't run very many creatures. I'd run a walker like Elspeth or Ajani in that slot, instead of Dig or Cruise. Gives board presence, recurring effects, and an eventual win condition.
First, try and play Tectonic Edge over Ghost Quarter, it's amazing how many times people will hit their 4th land, have it get tec edged, and then stay stuck on 3 lands forever cause they took such a tight opening hand. I've won games because they couldn't play all their powerful 4cmc stuff.
Glad I could sway you to the right side of the force. I think Ghost Quarter is good situationally, though. For example, if you know the other deck plays like 2 or 3 basics max. Chances are they'll fetch one to avoid shocking themselves, another off one of your Path's, and if you get lucky they'll just play their last one. Then you get to GQ with no downside!
Is Thassa, God of the Sea valid for our deck? At 3 mana, It fixes our draws, and if geist is on, It Just makes him unblockable. As a 1-of instead of Thundermaw, is It viable?
Thassa probably not. She's great in merfolk cause you can get her devotion online and she's just really oppressive. Here, scry and unblockable geist ain't worth the slot in my opinion. Clique would be better in that spot, gets rid of problem cards, has flash, and advances the attacking gameplan.
i play keranos and love him,
he is one of the greatest win conditions we have against GB shell decks, which are a very though MU.
i am also thinking about bringing mister ajani back in one copy.
What do you guys think?
I've always been a huge fan of Ajani, but I'd make sure my list was tuned more for control if he was in there. I used to run a 2/2 split of him and Elspeth, but I was split too hard between control and aggro, and it only worked situationally. If I had commit to a harder control shell he would've been great. What he does go excellently with is Tectonic Edge. Can keep people off of mana pretty well.
A lot of successful midrange decks play an one off keranos. Sry but you're wrong in this point
That may be true but I wonder how many of those are just following the leader? 5cmc is slow on its own but if you don't want to tap yourself out at sorcery speed for something that has zero payoff until you next turn then Keranos is likely coming down turn 7+ At that point why not just Sphinx's Rev for a more powerful/immediate payoff. But the thing is Rev hardly belongs in a midrange list, so logic would have it that Keranos has even less of a place here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but please back it up with evidence more compelling than lemming logic.
^ Thank you sir. It is hard to argue with results, but I wonder how many of those wins were because of Keranos, and I wonder if something like Thundermaw was there instead, they might've won by a larger margin. There is also the meta to consider; maybe Keranos is a house against something oppressive. But for the most part I agree, he doesn't fit the theme of this deck.
At this point, and based on your previous plans for the deck, there's really only a couple things I'd try and change. First, try and play Tectonic Edge over Ghost Quarter, it's amazing how many times people will hit their 4th land, have it get tec edged, and then stay stuck on 3 lands forever cause they took such a tight opening hand. I've won games because they couldn't play all their powerful 4cmc stuff. Also, you don't need 4 paths in the main. 3 and 1 in the board should be fine, unless of course your meta is saturated with X/4+'s. Lastly, I feel like there's gotta be something better than a 1-of Jeskai Charm. If you have an Elspeth, Knight-errant, she would go perfectly in your list. If not, I'm sure you could fit a 3rd Cryptic, if you have one. Finally, I guess see how Keranos works for you. I think there's better choices but by all means, it might go perfectly with your list.
Hey guys, just wanted to chime in after this week's Modern night at my store. I ran UWR Midrange (Teamgeist) with 1x Deflecting Palm in the sideboard. Every time I boarded it in, I loved it. It won me a game in spectacular fashion when I cast it when Emrakul was attacking.
Now that sir, is what I call a win hahaha. Deflecting Palm is definitely some interesting tech. Usually, it seems like it would never be a dead card. Wish it saved Geist in combat though :/ I'll have to test it out and see how it performs.
im seeing Pulse of the Fields popping up in SBs now too. anyone else tried it out? burn is pretty big in my meta. i like the idea of it.
also has anyone figured out a comfortable mana base? right now im at 4 tarn 2 strand 2 mesa. i play 2 cryptics and it seems to be working out okay.
Pulse seems a bit slow for this deck, but I do like its self-recursion and instant speed. The other card I would bring up to compare it with is Timely Reinforcements. Without having personally tested either, I can't say for sure which is better; both will help you against burn, but I doubt Pulse would help much against an aggressive creature based deck like Zoo. Those 1/1's can buy you some time.
See my above post for fetch types/count. Yours seems fine.
i am also not sold with delve. snapcaster is not replaceable in my opinion. and that kind of card would be better in a control list, which needs to draw more, plays one land more (potentially the 8th fetch to put in gy). i don't think i wanna play it in my midrange list.
i think ajani could potentially make a comeback. tron seems to be rising again in my meta and ajani can stop them for turns. any thoughts? i see it as a 1x instead of 1x command ( i actually play 3 of them).
i am also thinking of getting rid of my 2 remands to play a shadow of doubt MB and another cmc2 card.
Yea, I'd say stay away from Delve for Geist Midrange. My graveyard has saved me so often it's not even funny. Ripping Snaps and Helices off the top one after another gave me so much staying power, and there's nothing quite like flashing back Remand.
Which brings me to my next point, I don't think you should drop the Remands. Geist midrange benefits so much from that card. Slow them down long enough to stick Geist and put on the clock. Same reason why it's run in combo decks like Twin. They just need to slow people down till they go off, and nothing does that better than Remand. There are definitely times when it should be boarded out, but unless you expect your meta to be like all Burn and Aggro and Affinity, Remand should be in there.
Hey guys, relatively new to the modern scene and looking to build this deck after failing miserably with Wafo-Tapa's esper control. I currently do not own Cliques or Tarns and probably cannot justify buying them right now. With that in mind, I'm interested in running the following creature base:
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Restoration Angel
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Blade Splicer
I also plan on running some number of cryptic commands (probably 2-3? What is the correct number here?)
I'm unsure of which direction I should take my noncreature spells in. Things like remand or mana leaks, whether or not helix/electrolyze fit in here, stuff like that. I assume that playing path is also a necessary evil whether there are also mana leaks or not?
Also, do you guys think Keranos has a place in a deck like this? Or is he much too slow?
Thanks a lot in advance guys, I really appreciate any advice.
Bolt is an auto 4 of. You can do a split with Remand and Leak if you want, they are in the deck for different reasons though. I am a personal fan of Lightning Helix and Electrolyze, although Electrolyze will depend on how prevalent Lingering Souls and other X/1's are in your meta. My Cryptic count is at 2, but you can run more if you want to be more on the control side, less if you want to be more aggressive. Don't worry about Cliques, the deck can function without them.
If you're going to run Angels I'd recommend just putting Kiki in there too to have an 'oops, I win' condition. Angels are going to benefit you more in a controlish build. They synergize well with decks looking for value, like Melira Pod, and are good when you just want to play spells on their turn (like UWR control), but are generally slow for more aggressive strategies. My buddy really helped me when I was tuning my UWR list. Basically, build aggressive with Geist or just drop him and go control. If you try to do both you'll do neither well. For example, Sphinx's Revelation is awesome and you could make it work, but it just doesn't advance the gameplan of a Geist deck, and therefore takes away a spot that could be better utilized.
I run 4 Tarn 4 Mesa. Considering dropping 2 Mesa for 2 Flooded Strand. If you're running Cryptics it's really important to always have access to blue, so running more blue fetches is definitely a good thing. Then, you need your red for bolts so there should always be 4 Tarns. I honestly don't think it will matter that much since you can get every combination of shock land with the fetches we have now.
Hey guys! Just butting in real quick to say hi and that I'm back I guess. Khans looks like a great set and for me, it's breathing life back into the game. So here I am!
Eventually I'll catch up on the discussion and start doing some testing of my own, but I'm pretty out of touch with the Modern format at the moment. My decklists are still from several months ago. Anyway, carry on good sirs.
Really you think 6 cost is too much? I just went 5-1 at a local 50 person, running wurmcoil engine. 5/5 persist, fly, Vigilance bringing back your spells right when your running out seems relevant, although I guess I'm trying to determine just how relevant.
I'll give you, 3 white cost is not easy it will require likely an extra 2 glacial fortress and all 4 Arid mesa to be reliable.
It was probably Wurmcoil Engine that did the work for you. There's no color constraint on it and it's one of the biggest playable bombs in Modern. The only 'reliable' answers to it are a counterspell or a Path. If I had to compare the two, Wurmcoil is infinitely better than Twilight Shepherd.
Also the Shepherd does not bring your spells back. She says any card that was put into the graveyard from the battlefield this turn. That limits it to permanents...that died on the turn she came into play.
Dear god no. 6 mana is too much. 3 white is too much. Her ETB ability is terrible, as it doesn't synergize with the deck at all. Viable beatsticks are found in the form of things like Thundermaw Hellkite and Baneslayer Angel. Find something on par with those.
I'm still not sold on Brimaz as a contender for the 3 slot. In terms of raw damage and neat combat tricks, Geist is about as good as it gets. Downgrading him to something mediocre seems like a bad idea, so if I had to keep some creature in the 3 slot, I would probably use Kitchen Finks. A deck like UWR control would have to 2 for 1 itself every time to get rid of it, unless they wanted to use Path or Anger (in which case by all means, please do). And even after that you've still gained 2 life which helps you out in the grind. It also allows you to be greedier with your fetching early in the game. Sure, you don't have the interaction that Pod would have with things like Gavony and Eternal Witness to make full use of the card, but Finks is hardly your win condition.
With that in mind, you need something to replace Geist as a win condition, and I think Thundermaw Hellkite does the job nicely. Clearing out pesky Souls and Bitterblossom tokens is great value. And putting them on a 2-3 turn clock is quite strong.
Has anyone considered 1or two sword of fire and ice? It can draw cards for us and deal extra dmg. Furthermore it can make Geist itself and snapcaster a real threat.
I'd play Feast and Famine over Fire and Ice if I were to run swords. The stuff you often find on the other side of the field blocking you is either Green or Black, and having untapped mana for their turn is huge. You swing with Colonnade and still have full mana for Cryptic and stuff. Better than a card +2 dmg.