I had a crazy thought this morning. I often feel like knowing what my opponent has in hand can make a massive difference in the lines I take. So.... (Drumroll)... Would I be nuts to throw 4 Gitaxian Probe into the deck and just run 64 without any extra lands? Use it to peek, pay 2 life and essentially it cycles. Provides further fuel for Lavamancer...
It wouldn't work exactly like that, just going to 64 without adding any extra lands. The primary reason we run so many lands is to average 3 per starting 7. If you add 4 cards you will be lowering your average starting hand land count. I do understand you will be cycling for "free" but what if that cycle doesn't get you a land that you need?
I feel that you'd be better off running 60 and only 60 cards in your deck. If you want to use the "free" card ability then use it to make your deck more consistent. I do love the idea of knowing what the opponent has. Sometimes I play around with Esper variants to enjoy thoughtseize and inquisition of kozilek which provide huge upside knowing what my opponent is likely to do. I wish WoTC would just print a 1U Counter Target Spell Unless It's Controller Pays 1, You Can Look At Target Player's Hand.
Hi all. I'm new to the deck and am trying to find a decent list with cards that I own that I could sleeve up as an alternate deck for local modern night. I don't have the disposable income to blow on the cards I'm missing at the moment, so for now I'm avoiding the following cards:
Besides these exceptions, I have additional copies of pretty much everything in the list. If some of the choices seem a little strange, it's probably because my local meta has a fair bit of aggro in it. Elves, Merfolk, Burn, Small Zoo, BW Vampires (lol), little bit of combo like Ad Nauseum and UR Storm, and just a sprinkle of midrange.
I'd like to find room for a Gideon Jura in the main, but I'm already playing 3 5-drops... Oh, and should I add a Stony Silence or two to the board? I haven't run into any Affinity or Tron decks yet, but it's probably only a matter of time. It could probably replace Surgical Extraction (which I added after playing against Grixis Control online and wishing I had a way to shut down Snap -> Kommand shenanigans without neutering my own recursion stuff). Any thoughts on that, or the deck in general for that matter? I'd love to hear some feedback from players with more experience. Thanks!
While batterskull is nice, with the uptick of jund and their kolaghans command, I do not find it as a safe win condition.
Geist of Saint Traft kind of is the namesake of the midrange deck and snapcaster mage has historically been a 4 of as plan b (bolt snap bolt). That said, your list reminds me more of a control list than a midrange one. I do like the Goblin dark dwellers and had been hoping they will find a home somewhere, but I feel that their home is better suited for grixis with flip jace and ancestral visions and the above mentioned kolaghans command... The problem with them in a flash list is that they work poorly with counterspells.
I'd recommend you check out the control forums, but they are all in the nahiri plan at the moment...
For your list I'd recommend ajani vengeant. he's a great threat, a lightning helix when you need one, and comes down for less than 5 mana. Gideon Jura could also replace the batterskull and is great against jund and aggro which you noted is prevalent in your meta.
Is your current game plan:
T1 fetch land
T2 counter or removal
T3 counter or removal fetch land or clique
T4 restoration angel or cryptic
T5 dark dwellers on helix to crush aggro
T6+ turn the corner?
I feel in that type of game plan a little card selection is key. Without serum visions I feel that telling time or anticipate might greatly help your list and consistency.
Also, I love remands. But as GreatNate has posted, remands are only great when we can gain something from their tempo. Without geist or an early threat like monastery mentor or young pyromancer, you really lose the tempo gain from the card. Maybe that could be what you drop for the anticipates. I would cut the spell snares, but it sounds like you need them in your meta.
I would run Stony silence in the side. It's a very critical card. If aggro is that prevalent I would also run a timely reinforcements. That card can double as a win condition as well if you hold the board up.
I hope this helps.
Ad Nauseam (Dave) (2-1)
Game 1: I was not prepared for this deck. I had never played Ad Nauseum before but I knew there was a combo involving turn 1 lotus bloom. Remanding his Blooms as they resolved put him back a turn. I rode Tasigur and kolaghan's to victory. I never saw ad nauseum and couldn't remember if his win condition was an instant or sorcery so I didn't side in my dispels.
Game 2: He combo'd off. Then i sided in dispels.
Game 3: I landed a geist and remanded his threats. He pact of negation countered one of my remands. I kolaghan's command killed his pentad prism and he had to use an angel's grace to not die from his pact trigger. He cast mystical teachings and in response I snap bolted him to kill him.
Notes: Tasigur and K-Command were great. I underlined that Ad Nauseum is an instant.
GW Hate Bears (Scott) (1-2)
I knew he was on hate bears since he was sitting close by. This is not a great matchup.
Game 1: He landed a turn 2 Thalia which made me stumble in board growth. His Leonin Arbiters finished me off.
Game 2: I wear / tear killed his vial and he stumbled on lands. I won off lingering souls tokens.
Game 3: I had wanted to test Ashiok at this event. I was thoroughly impressed. For 3 mana she took 4 damage, fetched me an aven mindcensor which locked him out of a land after a path, and then nabbed loxodon smiter which could fend off his growing scavenging ooze. I was very close to winning. Or at least I felt that way. We went to time and he beat me in turns. If I had topdecked a snapcaster, timely, or lingering souls I would have tied.
Atarka Burn (Jesse) (2-0)
Game 1: I did not know what he was on and we got delayed with a deck inspection that resulted in everything being as it should be. I kept a reasonable seeming hand with 3 lands, 2 helix, a snapcaster, and a bolt. Triple Helix won me the game easily.
Game 2: This game I hit him with Boros Charm in the face when I had nothing else to do to race. However, because of this I ended up having more life then him when I drew my Timely Reinforcements. I made the call to cast it just for the 3 1/1s (he had an Eidolon of the Great Revel in play. The 3 1/1s blocked fantastically and even swung in for some damage for me to close it off with a lightning helix. Oh and he had a Blood Moon in play which had locked me out of U mana.
Affinity (Alex) (1-2)
Game 1: He had the nut draw and dumped his hand turn 1. By the time I recovered Galvanic Blast was there to finish me off.
Game 2: I landed a turn 2 Stony Silence and turn 3 geist. I won easily.
Game 3: I stupidly kept a 1 land hand with 3 path to exile, 1 stony silence, 1 lingering souls, and 1 bolt. I was on the draw so I tried rationalizing that I just needed to draw a white land with 2 draws. Oh? Did I mention that one land was a Steam Vents? Dumb gamble. Cost me the match.
Luckily even though I was 2-2, my tie breakers put me in the next round. Unfortunately I was the lowest seed in the next round and was paired with the undefeated GW Hate Bear player who I played earlier. He had the play by default.
GW Hate Bears (Scott) (0-2)
Game 1: He landed 2x arbiters with ghost quarters. I Kolaghan's Commanded his Vial and Killed an Arbiter with it as well. Tasigur was a beast and walled off his growing Scavenging Ooze even with Double Noble Hierarch in play. I was sitting on 7 life and he had 14 at the time so I was fine waiting to topdeck a path to exile, Lingering Souls, or Timely. Unfortunately after many turns I drew none of those and died to his Linvala.
Game 2: My notes from this game are: Double Tectonic Edge while on 4 Lands With Leonin Arbiter in play. I never recovered being pushed down to 2 mana. This was the only matchup where color of mana was an issue for me.
Overview:
Ashiok was very powerful against creature heavy decks. I'm glad she was in there.
My mana base is solid. Other than having obscene land destruction I always had the lands I needed when I needed them. This is consistent with my 146 matches with the deck. Serum Visions was meh. It is the worst card in the deck. Crackling Doom was ok. It was basically just a fifth path. This was my worst showing with it, but even still it killed something that bolt could not have. Kolaghan's Command was great. I'm glad I cut my Electrolyze for it. Electrolye just doesn't do as much as it should. Yes it would have been nice killing the Hate Bear's players double Noble Hierarch, but K-Command killed his vial and Arbiter, which is even better.
Tasigur is the real deal. He walled off aggression, swung in for a quick clock against combo, and would have closed out a grindy game against the Hate Bears if Linvala, Keeper of Silence wasn't on the board.
I am glad I cut my "finisher." It was Keranos, but I cut it for Nahiri fear. Then I reexamined my deck and realized I don't need a prototypical finisher. Boros Charm and Tasigur are enough there. Boros Charm, Snap, Boros Charm closes games faster than Keranos ever could.
Sideboard Thoughts:
I am not sure I needed the Nihil Spellbomb in the board. It was useless.
I almost did not put in Timely because I already have Lingering Souls. However, I feel that this is the right split because Timely's potential life gain can be very relevant.
Ashiok is very good.
I would love some feedback or constructive thoughts.
Slaughter Games is a card I have been having a lot of success with out of the sideboard. It stops Nahiri (making them a bolt snap bolt / colonnade deck at that point), scapeshift, and other combo decks pretty hard. And it's easy to cast and cannot be countered.
I was not suggesting we add her to our deck. Nahiri is not optimal in midrange. What I was asking is are we playing a sub optimal version of jeskai? It's the same question blue moon had to ask while twin was legal.
Now I am not saying midrange is worse. All I'm doing is asking the question. What are doing better than nahiri control?
GreatNate pointed out that nahiri doesn't shore up our bad matchups like tron. And he noted that we have a good matchup against the control jeskai.
Does Nahiri improve any split matchups we have? I don't think it does significantly.
I'm just trying to ask the important question with the recent success of a deck very similar to ours (both run 4 bolt, 4 helix, 4 snapcaster, 4 path, 4-6 counters, 1+ electrolyze, and pretty much the same lands).
With all of the recent success of the jeskai nahiri control, I would like to ask a pivotal question. What are we doing here, in midrange jeskai geist, that is better than what nahiri control is doing?
nahiri pros:
(Mostly) Game winning combo
more redundancy with card filtering
enchantment removal mainboard
can mainboard board wipes
geist pros:
faster clock, more proactive
restoration angel
nahiri cons:
very slow to close out games without nahiri or if she is killed
Running the black splash does not mean you ran my deck. I guarantee you we had different mana bases. I honestly feel that the key to my success with the list so far has more to do with mana base than anything else. As I clarified early, my primary strength against land hate (blood moon, choke, fulminator, etc) has been proper sideboarding and proper piloting. That is how you beat those. Does adding a 4th color make you weaker against land hate? In theory yes. But I have zero cards in my deck that cost double of the same mana type. It is easy for blood moon to harm you if you are running cryptic command with its UUU cost. I believe that my opponents have horrifically misplayed against my deck because they assume they know exactly what it is. Most of my opponents first try to lock me out of U. Look at my list. If I had sided in lingering souls, I can win as a boros deck quite handedly. You only need to win 2 out of 3 matches against your opponent. As I noted earlier the more decisions you make your opponent make, the better place you are going to be in. Maybe my luck against land hate will change when I face pilots who understand that U or B is not the mainstay of my deck. But that's a hard assumption for an opposing pilot to make.
To reiterate, I've never said it was easy to beat blood moon. I've just said that I've never lost a best 2 out of 3 match against it. I am undefeated against the Red Free Wins deck that battled against the eldrazi menace. That deck pulled out turn 2 blood moons.
Regarding the matchups: I do feel that crackling doom helps against merfolk. Kira is a card. That said, supreme verdict would be better there, but that's not a main deck spot for midrange.
Zoo, I think Tasigur does hard work there.
CoCo matchups suck. Black does not help any there. Unless maybe you ran slaughter games sideboard (which could help against scapeshift and living end as well).
I do not feel that I'm overstating the merits. From the beginning I have noted that it is not a better list. It is just a different list. And different lists get played by opponents differently and will lead different results. If you want to start a black splash you are going to have some disadvantages. One of those being you cannot run ghost quarter. Another being you need to be constantly vigilant about fetching the wrong color land. You have the severe capacity of losing to yourself.
I feel that I have been very open and objective in my analysis of a deck that I have tested for months now to positive results. If you run the wrong manabase or pilot incorrectly you will lose, because the deck is much less forgiving. But I enjoy that sort of thing.
Allright. Still the deck hasn't been putting up any results after Hyttel (which didn't do anything crazy good himself). I took inspiration from Hyttel's list myself back then. And to clarify, my list was super similar to yours, the manabase almost identical. And no Cryptics. I did get some good results while playing online, wasn't able to replicate them on paper in relevant tournaments (tried twice with the black splash). On the other hand the deck has been performing good for me on paper when playing Jeskai colors since several years ago, and it is starting to do so again lately after a couple "complicated" years where I basically decided to give up on playing Geist.
Like I said, from my experience the black splash adds little to the deck and makes it significantly more vulnerable. I stay by that experience and will stick to Jeskai. Blue, White and Red already give this deck everything it needs.
P.S. I won't keep going with the Blood Moon/Fulminator Mage discussion. Just two other small things. Doom is basically never going to kill Kira. Like never. Tasigur is too slow vs Zoo and they run Path. These cards are not the way to go in these MUs. And Merfolks gets undoubtedly worse with the black splash, because they run Spreading Seas.
You are right, Crackling Doom will never hit Kira, but it will hit something while shocking their face. Once Merfolk lands Kira all my bolts pretty much go to face, so being able to kill a fish while dealing 2 to their face is more helpful than an electrolyze in that spot.
Tasigur might be too slow against the new 8 whack decks. I have yet to play against those.
I've been watching a ton of your videos, and have had the deck for a while, but had almost never played it. When you said in one of your videos you felt your Geist deck felt around tier 1.5, I kind of rolled my eyes, but then randomly at my FNM I decided to play it after owning it for a while. Crushed a cheerio's deck, a Jund deck, 8Rack, and then lost a close game 3 in the finals against Zooicide despite being mana-screwed, and realized this is a super underrated deck, and just like Jund, this just seems to have a ton of 50/50 matchups with silver-bullet sideboard cards
Geist has been an unbelievable clock, and only feels better with all these midrange and control decks appearing (Ignoring RG Tron)
Good luck with your upcoming tournaments, Nate, hopefully you keep posting the videos, it's pretty hard to find a bunch of consistent videos on dedicated decks with going through all the lines of play
The deck's crazy fun, can't wait to see what it looks like in the future
I just want to second the support to GreatNate. His videos inspired me to go Jeskai instead of Scapeshift or Jund for my paper deck.
Geist, it's pretty obvious to me your're overstating the merits of the black splash while underestimating the shortcomings.
I mean, I've played the deck myself. It's not true that the manabase is as solid. It's not true that Fulminator and Moon aren't a problem. It's not true that the manabase isn't more painful. Saying things like "I've never lost to Blood Moon" makes little sense to me. This whole sentence makes really really little sense:
Oh and blood moon? I've never lost a match against it. choke? I've never lost a match against it. Fulminator Mage? Is no worse then a tectonic edge against me. You mentioned living end hate? I am 3-1 vs Living End.
I mean...I lose to Blood Moon even with Jeskai, with black it was worse and Fulminator is a PAIN to deal with when you've got a 4 colors manabase. Facts I've experienced on my own skin.
On the other hand, improvements are marginal and not as relevant as you're saying. Doom can be great vs Affinity in some games, ugly in others, it depends the kind of hand they have. I confirm I'm very happy with my Affinity MU anyway. Merfolks, Zoo and Company MUs don't get better with the black splash.
I had fun playing with the black splash myself, but you need to be more rational IMHO, you're not being very objective.
On a different subject: has anybody ever tested Sulfur Elemental as a sideboard tech?
Running the black splash does not mean you ran my deck. I guarantee you we had different mana bases. I honestly feel that the key to my success with the list so far has more to do with mana base than anything else. As I clarified early, my primary strength against land hate (blood moon, choke, fulminator, etc) has been proper sideboarding and proper piloting. That is how you beat those. Does adding a 4th color make you weaker against land hate? In theory yes. But I have zero cards in my deck that cost double of the same mana type. It is easy for blood moon to harm you if you are running cryptic command with its UUU cost. I believe that my opponents have horrifically misplayed against my deck because they assume they know exactly what it is. Most of my opponents first try to lock me out of U. Look at my list. If I had sided in lingering souls, I can win as a boros deck quite handedly. You only need to win 2 out of 3 matches against your opponent. As I noted earlier the more decisions you make your opponent make, the better place you are going to be in. Maybe my luck against land hate will change when I face pilots who understand that U or B is not the mainstay of my deck. But that's a hard assumption for an opposing pilot to make.
To reiterate, I've never said it was easy to beat blood moon. I've just said that I've never lost a best 2 out of 3 match against it. I am undefeated against the Red Free Wins deck that battled against the eldrazi menace. That deck pulled out turn 2 blood moons.
Regarding the matchups: I do feel that crackling doom helps against merfolk. Kira is a card. That said, supreme verdict would be better there, but that's not a main deck spot for midrange.
Zoo, I think Tasigur does hard work there.
CoCo matchups suck. Black does not help any there. Unless maybe you ran slaughter games sideboard (which could help against scapeshift and living end as well).
I do not feel that I'm overstating the merits. From the beginning I have noted that it is not a better list. It is just a different list. And different lists get played by opponents differently and will lead different results. If you want to start a black splash you are going to have some disadvantages. One of those being you cannot run ghost quarter. Another being you need to be constantly vigilant about fetching the wrong color land. You have the severe capacity of losing to yourself.
I feel that I have been very open and objective in my analysis of a deck that I have tested for months now to positive results. If you run the wrong manabase or pilot incorrectly you will lose, because the deck is much less forgiving. But I enjoy that sort of thing.
Tasigur can block a swift spear when they have atarkas command and live. neither tasigur or restoration angel can trade with Swift spear and bolt, but that's never been my biggest fear. losing my blocker at parity will lose me the game. if they bolt swift spear it, they might be pushed to top decking and it's one less bolt to my face. if they swift spear atarkas command to kill my blocker then it's nearly a 1 for 1 since atarkas second mode (probably bolt to face) and both restoration angel and their creature die. tasigur lives in this scenario. in one zoo match he lived to block and kill 3 creatures. restoration angel would have been killed by his atarkas and not ended up being a saving grace which gave me enough time to draw my helix snap helix plan.
Edit: actually tasigur not being an angel is relevant too. this way restoration angel could flicker him if need be. if you note my list I run both. the card I cut for tasigur is clique.
Few decks run mainboard bloodmoon, so usually you can help side around it (celestial purge and wear//tear and no crackling doom since it is hard to cast). I have lost games (not matches) where an opponent resolved a bloodmoon, but I have always closed the best 2 out of 3. But you asked how. If you look at my list there is a lot less double colored requirements (with the exception of Avacyn whom I am strongly considering changing back to Thundermaw for). This means my deck can survive being a boros list. Or an izzet list. I've won matches being locked out of 2 of my colors (black and white or black and blue) through sheer burn power (boros is easier since I then have bolt, helix, path, and restoration angel to win games, with izzet its more a bolt snap bolt plan of attack). Obviously in the case where I'm expecting a blood moon I fetch around it. Similar to what GreatNate said: "I usually deal with blood moon by fetching two islands and a plains. That being said, there isn't many blood moons right now." Except in my deck's case, I only need to fetch 1 island and 1 plains. But my lands being so redundant, it makes it easier to have WRUB by turn 3 or 4. The only color hard to replace is black, which is not vital to the core of the deck (ironically that would be W or R. This is very much a boros list with a blue and black splash. Understanding that makes it easier to understand my list (and my lack of a playset of scalding tarn, which is not a budget decision, it is a color decision). It is also why I do not run spell snare. My deck wants W or R on turn 1 if possible to bolt or path a threat away against aggressive lists.
My black cards can be trimmed for games 2 and 3 if need be. Especially since they are most helpful match one when the opponent's are not expecting them (crackling doom, tasigur, and shadow of doubt are not cards people expect from jeskai).
Edit: If Blood Moon becomes more prevalent in the meta I will once again run a Swamp in the Sideboard. It is also a card I used to side in when I ran thoughtseize side.
Regarding Tasigur and Clique:
Vendilion Clique is a really, really good card. I am not knocking it by not running it. But a 4 color list cannot afford UU especially when people think the easiest way to beat a 4 color list is to attack the lands (see above). It is easy to knock me off double colors so Clique cannot be run reliably. B can be however. Additionally, I was not exaggerating when I was praising Tasigur. He is not just a concession to mana costs. He is also a great card in his own right, grinding out card advantage while having a fat 4/5 body that requires a 2 for 1 (block, bolt), a terminate, or path to remove.
As is evident by prior postings, I am a fan of pushing manabases. UWR midranges primary enemies are Liliana OTV, multiple creatures that don't die to Bolt since you only run so many paths (Goyf, Siege Rhino, Tasigur, etc), etched champion, and hexproof creatures (boggles, kira, great glass-spinner in merfolk, and infect creatures with vines of vastwood, and opposing geists of saint traft). Additionally, UWR midrange runs zero mainboard artifact hate cards. There are four cards that I have been testing for months now with over 130 live competitive matches at FNMs and online. These cards help strengthen UWRs weakness to the above mentioned threats.
Crackling Doom is path to exile 5+6 and kills a goyf and a liliana after she cruel edicts, which keeps us at parody with her if she kills our geist (2 cards for 2 cards). It also handles any large threats while shocking our opponent's face, and it destroys etched champions wearing equipment or boggles wearing enchantments (and even once a kira on an empty board). It can also destroy indestructible creatures. I have used it to kill an emrakul. Worst case scenario game one it is an expensive shock to their face, but the 2 damage is almost always relevant.
Tasigur, the Golden Fang allows UWR midrange to take advantage of the Grixis grind engine and have a 4 turn clock (after fetches) or a strong blocker against other 4/5s like goyf or rhino.
Lingering Souls is an amazing sideboard card that might even make mainboard against the current meta of grindiness. Jund hates tokens and it is a great discard against Liliana. Extra blockers versus infect and affinity are also always helpful and will extend games that are otherwise lost.
I am 98-34 with my UWRb list. I ran this list even through the Eldrazi winter while everyone not running eldrazi were running mainboard fulminator mages and blood moons. Yes I still posted a winning record. In part, this could be my familiarity with the list (which is hugely important in modern) since I brewed this. It could also be because pretty much every card in the deck is a 2 for 1. K-Command? 2 for 1. Snapcaster? 2 for 1. Crackling Doom? Shadow of Doubt? Electrolyze? Lightning Helix? Yes. Yes Yes and Kind of. Even Geist is in a weird way a 2 for 1 if he is allowed to attack.
Currently I have 3 flex spots which I am filling with shadow of doubt, serum visions, and the Archangel Avacyn (I think Thundermaw or Keranos would be better
Hey man! Just my two cents. I love thundermaw. He is a beast, no one expects him, and I love how it takes down lingering souls and thopter blockers lol
There are a ton of people who said, omg is that thundermaw?! Lol
I think it's cool you can get dark jeskai to work. I am too critical of the mana base with my meta to try to make that leap lol but I understand where you're coming from
Thanks! I love being able to close out games fast once the corner is turned. I think the most important thing about dark jeskai is not being too greedy with the manabase. That said, I feel that creeping tar pit is too greedy since it is a black mana source that requires another black mana source in play to activate. Lucas Hytell seemed to like it (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=9945&d=257360&f=MO) but I feel that fetching only one of my 3 black shock lands is what I want to be doing. I'd encourage you to test a few hands on tapped out. Any fetch can grab a black source as well. And in reality, you don't need a black source to win since the deck can still operate mostly on just jeskai colors.
Etched Champion is a card that UWR midrange cannot deal with. Even UWR Control has issues with it unless they land a turn 4 wrath of god (the cannot be regenerated clause stopping a timely sideboarded welding jar) which is usually only a 1 of in the 75.
Additionally the Affinity matchup is not as great for UWR as it is on paper. GreatNate posted a while ago that his Affinity matchup was not the walk in the park that a lot of UWR players claim it to be. Crackling Doom stops Etched Champion. Kolagahn's Command destroys cranial plating. This matchup becomes much better before sideboards are even considered.
My only losses against merfolk have been when they land a kira, great glass-spinner and I do not have Crackling Doom to slow them down. (Yes supreme verdict would be better in that spot, but only UWR control mainboards board wipes anyways). I am 2-2 versus merfolk, which I feel is good for a deck that mainboards island cards when they have islandwalk.
Against burn and red aggro decks like naya zoo I am 9-2, despite having a manabase that requires more colors.
Against Go Wide Decks like CoCo or KikiChord (or any deck that runs Kitchen Finks) I think that the extra burn and removal helps me close out matches that I should not have won s. In those matchups geist becomes a boros charm that they have to block or else it comes back (and restoration angel, crackling doom, and path help protect him in combat). In fact, running even more cards that "protect" geist just makes him even scarier for opponents. I have had opponents misplay and keep 2 blockers back for Geist, knowing I could remove one, but forgetting about Restoration Angel. I have also had opponents then go the other direction and attack my face with everything they have and leave the path clear for geist. Either scenario I feel like I am coming out ahead, because Bolt Snap Bolt with Geist swings closes out games very very fast.
You asked me why my list is a better option? It is not a better option. It is a different option. In a wide and diverse (and open) modern meta, different options can sometimes be preferable. My manabase looks different but my deck is largely the same. Opponents don't always know this until game 2, when I have the option of siding out some black spells if I feel a blood moon is coming. The more you make your opponent make a decision the better chance you have of winning. My list sometimes plays more like esper then jeskai and sometimes looks mardu to others. A lot of opponents have assumed I am a gifts deck until I land a threat and win with it.
Oh and blood moon? I've never lost a match against it. choke? I've never lost a match against it. Fulminator Mage? Is no worse then a tectonic edge against me. You mentioned living end hate? I am 3-1 vs Living End.
Regarding Lingering Souls, I used to run more of them and I really want to run 3. But the only things they really help against are the same decks that I am already strong against.
Spsiegel1987, I am not running any spell snares. They are a good card, but I hate having dead draws without serum visions to push them to the bottom late game. My one of serum visions is a flex spot I added for testing because everyone keeps insisting I need to run it. Also spell snare is a nonbo with Tasigur.
Regarding Tasigur, Vendilion Clique is also really really good. But Tasigur is a 4/5 (usually for 3 mana in my list). He has immensely aided my matchups against naya and gruul zoo decks since he can block a monastery swiftspear without fear (unlike restoration angel). Clique dies in any blocking situation and I haven't found the 3/1 flying body to be as relevant as Clique's ability. With black you could run Thoughtseize if you are afraid of combo decks. My lack of it in my list is a concession to the lack of combo in the meta right now. That said, I love having lots of threats. And Tasigur is the black version of Tarmogoyf. He has to be answered.
Also making Shadow of Doubt easier to cast is just gravy. It is one of the most underplayed cards in modern and stops a large number of our worst matchups (chord of calling, scapeshift, sylvan library, expedition map, verdant catacombs(or any fetch land), etc. It is mainboard hate for a lot of our worst matchups that worse case scenario is a end of turn cantrip, like a bad think twice.
tl;dr: This is not a better list. This is a different list. Not everyone will prefer it. Not everyone will even try it. But I have had success with it even during the Eldrazi Winter when everyone was running land hate. If you want to test a few hands at it look here: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/geist-of-saint-doom-1/ And please remember that Avacyn is a flex spot in testing.
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It wouldn't work exactly like that, just going to 64 without adding any extra lands. The primary reason we run so many lands is to average 3 per starting 7. If you add 4 cards you will be lowering your average starting hand land count. I do understand you will be cycling for "free" but what if that cycle doesn't get you a land that you need?
I feel that you'd be better off running 60 and only 60 cards in your deck. If you want to use the "free" card ability then use it to make your deck more consistent. I do love the idea of knowing what the opponent has. Sometimes I play around with Esper variants to enjoy thoughtseize and inquisition of kozilek which provide huge upside knowing what my opponent is likely to do. I wish WoTC would just print a 1U Counter Target Spell Unless It's Controller Pays 1, You Can Look At Target Player's Hand.
While batterskull is nice, with the uptick of jund and their kolaghans command, I do not find it as a safe win condition.
Geist of Saint Traft kind of is the namesake of the midrange deck and snapcaster mage has historically been a 4 of as plan b (bolt snap bolt). That said, your list reminds me more of a control list than a midrange one. I do like the Goblin dark dwellers and had been hoping they will find a home somewhere, but I feel that their home is better suited for grixis with flip jace and ancestral visions and the above mentioned kolaghans command... The problem with them in a flash list is that they work poorly with counterspells.
I'd recommend you check out the control forums, but they are all in the nahiri plan at the moment...
For your list I'd recommend ajani vengeant. he's a great threat, a lightning helix when you need one, and comes down for less than 5 mana. Gideon Jura could also replace the batterskull and is great against jund and aggro which you noted is prevalent in your meta.
Is your current game plan:
T1 fetch land
T2 counter or removal
T3 counter or removal fetch land or clique
T4 restoration angel or cryptic
T5 dark dwellers on helix to crush aggro
T6+ turn the corner?
I feel in that type of game plan a little card selection is key. Without serum visions I feel that telling time or anticipate might greatly help your list and consistency.
Also, I love remands. But as GreatNate has posted, remands are only great when we can gain something from their tempo. Without geist or an early threat like monastery mentor or young pyromancer, you really lose the tempo gain from the card. Maybe that could be what you drop for the anticipates. I would cut the spell snares, but it sounds like you need them in your meta.
I would run Stony silence in the side. It's a very critical card. If aggro is that prevalent I would also run a timely reinforcements. That card can double as a win condition as well if you hold the board up.
I hope this helps.
No just a invitational qualifier
1 blood crypt
4 celestial colonnade
3 flooded strand
1 godless shrine
1 hallowed fountain
1 island
1 plains
2 sacred foundry
2 scalding tarn
2 steam vents
1 sulfur falls
1 watery grave
1 Crackling Doom
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
4 Remand
1 Shadow of Doubt
2 Serum Visions
4 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Restoration Angel
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, The Golden Fang
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Counterflux
1 Celestial Purge
2 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Lingering Souls
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wear // Tear
1 Stony Silence
1 Engineered Explosives
The report:
Ad Nauseam (Dave) (2-1)
Game 1: I was not prepared for this deck. I had never played Ad Nauseum before but I knew there was a combo involving turn 1 lotus bloom. Remanding his Blooms as they resolved put him back a turn. I rode Tasigur and kolaghan's to victory. I never saw ad nauseum and couldn't remember if his win condition was an instant or sorcery so I didn't side in my dispels.
Game 2: He combo'd off. Then i sided in dispels.
Game 3: I landed a geist and remanded his threats. He pact of negation countered one of my remands. I kolaghan's command killed his pentad prism and he had to use an angel's grace to not die from his pact trigger. He cast mystical teachings and in response I snap bolted him to kill him.
Notes: Tasigur and K-Command were great. I underlined that Ad Nauseum is an instant.
GW Hate Bears (Scott) (1-2)
I knew he was on hate bears since he was sitting close by. This is not a great matchup.
Game 1: He landed a turn 2 Thalia which made me stumble in board growth. His Leonin Arbiters finished me off.
Game 2: I wear / tear killed his vial and he stumbled on lands. I won off lingering souls tokens.
Game 3: I had wanted to test Ashiok at this event. I was thoroughly impressed. For 3 mana she took 4 damage, fetched me an aven mindcensor which locked him out of a land after a path, and then nabbed loxodon smiter which could fend off his growing scavenging ooze. I was very close to winning. Or at least I felt that way. We went to time and he beat me in turns. If I had topdecked a snapcaster, timely, or lingering souls I would have tied.
Atarka Burn (Jesse) (2-0)
Game 1: I did not know what he was on and we got delayed with a deck inspection that resulted in everything being as it should be. I kept a reasonable seeming hand with 3 lands, 2 helix, a snapcaster, and a bolt. Triple Helix won me the game easily.
Game 2: This game I hit him with Boros Charm in the face when I had nothing else to do to race. However, because of this I ended up having more life then him when I drew my Timely Reinforcements. I made the call to cast it just for the 3 1/1s (he had an Eidolon of the Great Revel in play. The 3 1/1s blocked fantastically and even swung in for some damage for me to close it off with a lightning helix. Oh and he had a Blood Moon in play which had locked me out of U mana.
Affinity (Alex) (1-2)
Game 1: He had the nut draw and dumped his hand turn 1. By the time I recovered Galvanic Blast was there to finish me off.
Game 2: I landed a turn 2 Stony Silence and turn 3 geist. I won easily.
Game 3: I stupidly kept a 1 land hand with 3 path to exile, 1 stony silence, 1 lingering souls, and 1 bolt. I was on the draw so I tried rationalizing that I just needed to draw a white land with 2 draws. Oh? Did I mention that one land was a Steam Vents? Dumb gamble. Cost me the match.
Luckily even though I was 2-2, my tie breakers put me in the next round. Unfortunately I was the lowest seed in the next round and was paired with the undefeated GW Hate Bear player who I played earlier. He had the play by default.
GW Hate Bears (Scott) (0-2)
Game 1: He landed 2x arbiters with ghost quarters. I Kolaghan's Commanded his Vial and Killed an Arbiter with it as well. Tasigur was a beast and walled off his growing Scavenging Ooze even with Double Noble Hierarch in play. I was sitting on 7 life and he had 14 at the time so I was fine waiting to topdeck a path to exile, Lingering Souls, or Timely. Unfortunately after many turns I drew none of those and died to his Linvala.
Game 2: My notes from this game are: Double Tectonic Edge while on 4 Lands With Leonin Arbiter in play. I never recovered being pushed down to 2 mana. This was the only matchup where color of mana was an issue for me.
Overview:
Ashiok was very powerful against creature heavy decks. I'm glad she was in there.
My mana base is solid. Other than having obscene land destruction I always had the lands I needed when I needed them. This is consistent with my 146 matches with the deck.
Serum Visions was meh. It is the worst card in the deck.
Crackling Doom was ok. It was basically just a fifth path. This was my worst showing with it, but even still it killed something that bolt could not have.
Kolaghan's Command was great. I'm glad I cut my Electrolyze for it. Electrolye just doesn't do as much as it should. Yes it would have been nice killing the Hate Bear's players double Noble Hierarch, but K-Command killed his vial and Arbiter, which is even better.
Tasigur is the real deal. He walled off aggression, swung in for a quick clock against combo, and would have closed out a grindy game against the Hate Bears if Linvala, Keeper of Silence wasn't on the board.
I am glad I cut my "finisher." It was Keranos, but I cut it for Nahiri fear. Then I reexamined my deck and realized I don't need a prototypical finisher. Boros Charm and Tasigur are enough there. Boros Charm, Snap, Boros Charm closes games faster than Keranos ever could.
Sideboard Thoughts:
I am not sure I needed the Nihil Spellbomb in the board. It was useless.
I almost did not put in Timely because I already have Lingering Souls. However, I feel that this is the right split because Timely's potential life gain can be very relevant.
Ashiok is very good.
I would love some feedback or constructive thoughts.
Now I am not saying midrange is worse. All I'm doing is asking the question. What are doing better than nahiri control?
GreatNate pointed out that nahiri doesn't shore up our bad matchups like tron. And he noted that we have a good matchup against the control jeskai.
Does Nahiri improve any split matchups we have? I don't think it does significantly.
I'm just trying to ask the important question with the recent success of a deck very similar to ours (both run 4 bolt, 4 helix, 4 snapcaster, 4 path, 4-6 counters, 1+ electrolyze, and pretty much the same lands).
nahiri pros:
(Mostly) Game winning combo
more redundancy with card filtering
enchantment removal mainboard
can mainboard board wipes
geist pros:
faster clock, more proactive
restoration angel
nahiri cons:
very slow to close out games without nahiri or if she is killed
geist cons:
requires combat to win
How is everyone else thinking on this?
biggest change is he is running 2x grim lavamancer in the main
You are right, Crackling Doom will never hit Kira, but it will hit something while shocking their face. Once Merfolk lands Kira all my bolts pretty much go to face, so being able to kill a fish while dealing 2 to their face is more helpful than an electrolyze in that spot.
Tasigur might be too slow against the new 8 whack decks. I have yet to play against those.
I just want to second the support to GreatNate. His videos inspired me to go Jeskai instead of Scapeshift or Jund for my paper deck.
Running the black splash does not mean you ran my deck. I guarantee you we had different mana bases. I honestly feel that the key to my success with the list so far has more to do with mana base than anything else. As I clarified early, my primary strength against land hate (blood moon, choke, fulminator, etc) has been proper sideboarding and proper piloting. That is how you beat those. Does adding a 4th color make you weaker against land hate? In theory yes. But I have zero cards in my deck that cost double of the same mana type. It is easy for blood moon to harm you if you are running cryptic command with its UUU cost. I believe that my opponents have horrifically misplayed against my deck because they assume they know exactly what it is. Most of my opponents first try to lock me out of U. Look at my list. If I had sided in lingering souls, I can win as a boros deck quite handedly. You only need to win 2 out of 3 matches against your opponent. As I noted earlier the more decisions you make your opponent make, the better place you are going to be in. Maybe my luck against land hate will change when I face pilots who understand that U or B is not the mainstay of my deck. But that's a hard assumption for an opposing pilot to make.
To reiterate, I've never said it was easy to beat blood moon. I've just said that I've never lost a best 2 out of 3 match against it. I am undefeated against the Red Free Wins deck that battled against the eldrazi menace. That deck pulled out turn 2 blood moons.
Regarding the matchups: I do feel that crackling doom helps against merfolk. Kira is a card. That said, supreme verdict would be better there, but that's not a main deck spot for midrange.
Zoo, I think Tasigur does hard work there.
CoCo matchups suck. Black does not help any there. Unless maybe you ran slaughter games sideboard (which could help against scapeshift and living end as well).
I do not feel that I'm overstating the merits. From the beginning I have noted that it is not a better list. It is just a different list. And different lists get played by opponents differently and will lead different results. If you want to start a black splash you are going to have some disadvantages. One of those being you cannot run ghost quarter. Another being you need to be constantly vigilant about fetching the wrong color land. You have the severe capacity of losing to yourself.
I feel that I have been very open and objective in my analysis of a deck that I have tested for months now to positive results. If you run the wrong manabase or pilot incorrectly you will lose, because the deck is much less forgiving. But I enjoy that sort of thing.
Edit: actually tasigur not being an angel is relevant too. this way restoration angel could flicker him if need be. if you note my list I run both. the card I cut for tasigur is clique.
Few decks run mainboard bloodmoon, so usually you can help side around it (celestial purge and wear//tear and no crackling doom since it is hard to cast). I have lost games (not matches) where an opponent resolved a bloodmoon, but I have always closed the best 2 out of 3. But you asked how. If you look at my list there is a lot less double colored requirements (with the exception of Avacyn whom I am strongly considering changing back to Thundermaw for). This means my deck can survive being a boros list. Or an izzet list. I've won matches being locked out of 2 of my colors (black and white or black and blue) through sheer burn power (boros is easier since I then have bolt, helix, path, and restoration angel to win games, with izzet its more a bolt snap bolt plan of attack). Obviously in the case where I'm expecting a blood moon I fetch around it. Similar to what GreatNate said: "I usually deal with blood moon by fetching two islands and a plains. That being said, there isn't many blood moons right now." Except in my deck's case, I only need to fetch 1 island and 1 plains. But my lands being so redundant, it makes it easier to have WRUB by turn 3 or 4. The only color hard to replace is black, which is not vital to the core of the deck (ironically that would be W or R. This is very much a boros list with a blue and black splash. Understanding that makes it easier to understand my list (and my lack of a playset of scalding tarn, which is not a budget decision, it is a color decision). It is also why I do not run spell snare. My deck wants W or R on turn 1 if possible to bolt or path a threat away against aggressive lists.
My black cards can be trimmed for games 2 and 3 if need be. Especially since they are most helpful match one when the opponent's are not expecting them (crackling doom, tasigur, and shadow of doubt are not cards people expect from jeskai).
Edit: If Blood Moon becomes more prevalent in the meta I will once again run a Swamp in the Sideboard. It is also a card I used to side in when I ran thoughtseize side.
Regarding Tasigur and Clique:
Vendilion Clique is a really, really good card. I am not knocking it by not running it. But a 4 color list cannot afford UU especially when people think the easiest way to beat a 4 color list is to attack the lands (see above). It is easy to knock me off double colors so Clique cannot be run reliably. B can be however. Additionally, I was not exaggerating when I was praising Tasigur. He is not just a concession to mana costs. He is also a great card in his own right, grinding out card advantage while having a fat 4/5 body that requires a 2 for 1 (block, bolt), a terminate, or path to remove.
Thanks! I love being able to close out games fast once the corner is turned. I think the most important thing about dark jeskai is not being too greedy with the manabase. That said, I feel that creeping tar pit is too greedy since it is a black mana source that requires another black mana source in play to activate. Lucas Hytell seemed to like it (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=9945&d=257360&f=MO) but I feel that fetching only one of my 3 black shock lands is what I want to be doing. I'd encourage you to test a few hands on tapped out. Any fetch can grab a black source as well. And in reality, you don't need a black source to win since the deck can still operate mostly on just jeskai colors.
Etched Champion is a card that UWR midrange cannot deal with. Even UWR Control has issues with it unless they land a turn 4 wrath of god (the cannot be regenerated clause stopping a timely sideboarded welding jar) which is usually only a 1 of in the 75.
Additionally the Affinity matchup is not as great for UWR as it is on paper. GreatNate posted a while ago that his Affinity matchup was not the walk in the park that a lot of UWR players claim it to be. Crackling Doom stops Etched Champion. Kolagahn's Command destroys cranial plating. This matchup becomes much better before sideboards are even considered.
My only losses against merfolk have been when they land a kira, great glass-spinner and I do not have Crackling Doom to slow them down. (Yes supreme verdict would be better in that spot, but only UWR control mainboards board wipes anyways). I am 2-2 versus merfolk, which I feel is good for a deck that mainboards island cards when they have islandwalk.
Against burn and red aggro decks like naya zoo I am 9-2, despite having a manabase that requires more colors.
Against Go Wide Decks like CoCo or KikiChord (or any deck that runs Kitchen Finks) I think that the extra burn and removal helps me close out matches that I should not have won s. In those matchups geist becomes a boros charm that they have to block or else it comes back (and restoration angel, crackling doom, and path help protect him in combat). In fact, running even more cards that "protect" geist just makes him even scarier for opponents. I have had opponents misplay and keep 2 blockers back for Geist, knowing I could remove one, but forgetting about Restoration Angel. I have also had opponents then go the other direction and attack my face with everything they have and leave the path clear for geist. Either scenario I feel like I am coming out ahead, because Bolt Snap Bolt with Geist swings closes out games very very fast.
You asked me why my list is a better option? It is not a better option. It is a different option. In a wide and diverse (and open) modern meta, different options can sometimes be preferable. My manabase looks different but my deck is largely the same. Opponents don't always know this until game 2, when I have the option of siding out some black spells if I feel a blood moon is coming. The more you make your opponent make a decision the better chance you have of winning. My list sometimes plays more like esper then jeskai and sometimes looks mardu to others. A lot of opponents have assumed I am a gifts deck until I land a threat and win with it.
Oh and blood moon? I've never lost a match against it. choke? I've never lost a match against it. Fulminator Mage? Is no worse then a tectonic edge against me. You mentioned living end hate? I am 3-1 vs Living End.
Regarding Lingering Souls, I used to run more of them and I really want to run 3. But the only things they really help against are the same decks that I am already strong against.
Spsiegel1987, I am not running any spell snares. They are a good card, but I hate having dead draws without serum visions to push them to the bottom late game. My one of serum visions is a flex spot I added for testing because everyone keeps insisting I need to run it. Also spell snare is a nonbo with Tasigur.
Regarding Tasigur, Vendilion Clique is also really really good. But Tasigur is a 4/5 (usually for 3 mana in my list). He has immensely aided my matchups against naya and gruul zoo decks since he can block a monastery swiftspear without fear (unlike restoration angel). Clique dies in any blocking situation and I haven't found the 3/1 flying body to be as relevant as Clique's ability. With black you could run Thoughtseize if you are afraid of combo decks. My lack of it in my list is a concession to the lack of combo in the meta right now. That said, I love having lots of threats. And Tasigur is the black version of Tarmogoyf. He has to be answered.
Also making Shadow of Doubt easier to cast is just gravy. It is one of the most underplayed cards in modern and stops a large number of our worst matchups (chord of calling, scapeshift, sylvan library, expedition map, verdant catacombs(or any fetch land), etc. It is mainboard hate for a lot of our worst matchups that worse case scenario is a end of turn cantrip, like a bad think twice.
tl;dr: This is not a better list. This is a different list. Not everyone will prefer it. Not everyone will even try it. But I have had success with it even during the Eldrazi Winter when everyone was running land hate. If you want to test a few hands at it look here: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/geist-of-saint-doom-1/ And please remember that Avacyn is a flex spot in testing.