legion - coalition relic (and, imo, chromatic lantern and every other mana rock not named darksteel ingot) is bad for the deck because it gets killed by child when it dies. Now, sure, you COULD recur it, and you COULD think you won't set off child very often so it'd be worth it, BUT you're playing green. So for a similar cost you could just use a ramp spell that will be nearly as efficient (or sometimes more efficient) to get the same mana boost, except that it won't get killed by child of alara. I would rather have any ramp spell than a mana rock. Except maybe the ingot (I eventually cut ingot from my build but it's still fine).
between vivids and shocks...weird comparison, vivids are dirt cheap whereas shocks are moderately expensive. Bang-for-your-buck, vivids. Shocks are more likely to make it into your "final" manabase, although I only run 2 (WU and WG for emeria). If you can get fetches, shocks become a lot better. Without fetches, they're just decent. There's other lands I use that are actually cheaper than shocks - i like a few of the ODY filters, and the cycling lands are excellent thanks to lftl. If your budget is low, I'd go with cheaper options than shocks, they really only get good when you have fetches. If you think you can eventually get fetches, then go ahead and get shocks. Otherwise, there's lots of other, better, cheaper duals out there.
Eh, my deck is what it is. Putting any sort of permanent-based threat or committing more than 0% to the field would really make it a totally different deck. I built my CoA from the ground up and I'm proud of how strong it is, I just have to accept that it's not a deck I can use in polite company.
I totally agree with your assessment of why this deck always becomes archenemy, it's sort of hard to avoid. Generally the only way I've figured is to avoid using the corpse dance until you can handle the hate, but that's hit-and-miss as most tutors are conditional and even if you use an unconditional one, people who have played against the deck will know what's up. That said, as long as you're playing a deck as the archenemy, mine is pretty stellar because it generates so much virtual and regular CA it's just ridiculous. Usually I only care about, like, 5-10% of people's decks. Plus it's got so much recursion, counters, and tutors that it's impossible to stop it.
I'm confused as well since if you're going to call gates bad cards, might as well call the forests bad cards also.
Using LftL just to hit land drops is acceptable. But that's pretty weak compared to how it could be utilized. If drawing one card a turn is fine, 1 cycling land is fine. But might as well play more than 1 as you also suggested.
I guess no non-land permanent is worth it in your deck. That's your call. However, I don't think that rolls over to most of the decks that have been actually listed which do use permanents. Just looking at the OP list, I have an easy time believing Jace TMS is worth including.
Also speaking as a guy who has one even though it doesn't matter.
Why would that follow? Forests are fine and necessary and don't etbt. And can be hit with basic land ramp. Although 7 is sort of a lot, I think I run 1-2.
I think I run 3(?) cyclers in the deck but that doesn't mean you're getting more than 1 reliably. But as long as you're getting back 3 lands each time I think it's plenty powerful, and fetches usually provide that easily. dumping stuff in the grave is also really good in general.
I run nonland permanents, but most of them are fine to kill (i.e. STE, glen-elendra archmage, genesis). I think glen elendra is the only one I don't want dead, but persist makes it reasonable.
My reason behind not liking jace is that I don't think this deck can reasonably recur him or protect him. Pretty much any evasion can get to him, and there's very little targeted hate to stop attacks getting through. I wouldn't anticipate getting more than 1 brainstorm out of him before he eats it for good.
There is no point in playing any of the cards that help other players also.
Doesn't repeated Global Ruin take out all of your utility lands? And make it difficult to get to the ~11 lands in play board state (Maze's End and Valakut)? Since Global Ruin is working so well for you, why hasn't your meta adjusted to include Armageddon/Ruination (stronger cards) and hated you out?
Crucible is pretty strong for a lands.dec, especially when you get Azusa/Exploration going.
LftL needs 2 cycling lands and/or Exploration/Azusa involved to get out of control. With one cycling one, you're just drawing one a turn and dredging 3. With 2 cycling lands, you're drawing 2 and better protect LftL from exile. So you might as well play all 5 of the cycling lands.
11 bad lands can easily replace 7 forests and 4 other cards.
Going to find a cut for Jace TMS
sure, global ruin kills my sac outlets and such, which is why I either hold them or make sure I have a lftl. If you wipe with child and then global ruin it's pretty brutal on most decks. I don't run maze's end or valakut. I don't get to play this deck hardly ever, everyone hated it too much. Only if I go to a new group, and even then, they usually want me to switch soon
crucible is great, but not for my deck.
lftl is perfectly great with 1 cycler and some fetches, just making sure you hit your drops. It's also great with tolaria west. You only need 1 cycler to protect it very well from exile.
i'm confused what you mean about the bad lands replacing forests and other cards.
i have a hard time believing jace is worth it in this deck. speaking as a guy who has one.
I concede that rites of flourishing can backfire. I've personally had good experiences but I can see how it can be detrimental. I really do back horn of greed though. My playgroup is rightfully scared of it.
Why not lftl AND crucible? They're both very insane and crucial to the deck.
Yeah, nomad stadium isn't stellar. It's one of the cards I've still kept from the original list. It's a good candidate to replace for cavern of souls or boseiju, both of which I really need to jam into this deck.
Glad I could help. This thread has certainly helped me already.
What type of shenanigans does Nim Deathmantle do with Child? But yeah, it's such a house in my deck. E Witness or Sun Titan, Deathmantle, sac outlet.. good times.
Thanks for the suggestions, Dirk! It's nice to have a second opinion on the list. I've taken out Nomad Stadium, Secluded Steppe, and Oblivion Stone for Boseiju, Cavern, and Corpse Dance.
My list is on my old phone which is dead, but I'm charging it up. Can't seem to find it on my computer anywhere, unfortunately.
I don't run crucible because my deck relies heavily on locking people down with child of alara. I usually wrath every turn, or at a minimum every other turn, usually starting on turn 5-6. recurring crucible is too much effort to do that often. Actually I don't really have any good ways to recur artifacts at all iirc, just creatures. I guess I could use ewit but that's a lot of effort. I agree that it's great for most decks in this vein but I really can't support any non-land permanents that I don't want being destroyed in my build.
personally i wouldn't take out the cycling lands, I love 'em with lftl, but it's your call.
I'll give Corpse Dance a shot. Probably take out Oblivion Stone for it and hope to draw into it for testing.
I have 7 cards that give me extra land drops plays (the ones that trigger Horn). 8 if you count Yawg's Will letting me replay any of the previous 7. It gets so nasty. My playgroup knows that it must be destroyed immediately. Even then, I can recur it quite easily.
Rites has always been good to me. It's no Horn but it's still works great. The opponents get to draw first, true. They'll get an extra land or two and then they'll run out of lands to play. I won't run out of lands to play. That's the difference. You don't get the same mileage as the guy with 56 lands, 10 fetches, crucible, yawg's will, tilling treefolk, and other absurd hand-fillers like treasure hunt and as nauseum. And if people leave me alone because I'm "helping" them, then that's a nice bonus.
You underestimate my recursion. Planeswalkers, instants, and sorceries are harder for me to get back, but the rest is easy, especially artifacts. I have tons of ways of getting back artifacts. It's not just Volrath's Stronghold and stuff. One of my biggest engines is Nim Deathmantle. Nim Deathmantle + Eternal Witness / Sun Titan + Sac Outlet = tons of value. Sure, destroy a piece of that, and I'll recur it. Exiling it is the only way to truly stop me. Blowing up my own Azusa is not a problem. She'll be back if I need her!
Raw lifegain. Like you said, Child gets hated a ton, so I need to get some life back mid/lategame. Diamond Valley is bestest, but stadium + crucible is alright too.
I wouldn't "hope to draw into" corpse dance, it's usually tutor target #2 for me (#1 being intuition, which I usually use to set up lftl + sac out + boseiju/cavern/fetch/VS/emeria/strip, or genesis + ewit + glen elendra archmage if i'm feeling weird and I think I can get away with it). If I happen to have a sac outlet already, then it's usually tutor target #1.
you're running more extra land drops that me so I guess I'll take your word about it for the horn. I still have no intention to play it, though.
I don't doubt that hitting an extra land drop is nice for your deck, but exploration gives you that, asymmetrically, for 1 mana instead of 3, and doesn't give your enemies huge advantages. Plus they could be playing more draw that enables them to get double drops all day. Giving a good mono-blue deck double land drops and extra draws seems really dangerous to me, and you have so little control outside of child, which still can't really be properly abused without corpse dance. If someone drops a consecrated sphinx so they're drawing 8+ cards every turn cycle and hitting extra land drops to boot, I feel like you're going to get stomped instantly.
Hmm, yeah I don't like stadium. But then I also prefer not to run crucible in this deck since I prefer lftl. Since you're going for a more permanent-based deck maybe it makes more sense. I also can get diamond valley way more reliably.
I go for Fool's Demise over Corpse Dance. They're not exactly the same but I like the added flexibility of Demise. Sometimes I want my Oracle to survive a Child wipe, for example.
Oblivion Stone is something I can tutor for when Child is tucked and I need a wipe or someone drops something nasty like Blood Moon and I need a wipe. Not an absolutely necessary card but more of a meta call.
Rites and Horn are absurdly good here. The latter especially. My opponents never get close to as much value as I do. If Horn sticks around I usually win the game in the next few turns.
i run fool's demise too, but corpse dance is just absurd. just incredibly powerful, and so impossible to stop with boseiju. fool's demise has some fun flexibility, but it's much easier to stop. instant-speed removal 2-for-1s you, and it can't be protected from counters. Two removal spells break it, and if the second one is a tuck...bummer for you. Plus it lets your opponents have more control over when child goes off - they can force your hand with removal. Corpse dance you can wait until you absolutely need to wrath to put child onto the board.
you know horn only works with playing lands, right? no double-draws off fetches and most ramp spells don't help. I only see a few cards that give you extra drops. I mean I can see it giving you a (semi) reliable 2 draws a turn, but I wouldn't consider that worth it when the rest of the table as a whole is probably drawing quite a bit more.
Rites is one of my all-time least favorite cards. Everyone else gets MORE milage since they get first draws, and giving non-green decks extra land drops seems like suicide to me, especially since i see no counterspells in your deck. Whenever I see group-hug decks pilot it, things always get stupid in a big hurry, and rarely in a huggy way.
Also I have a general prejudice against any nonland permanents in this deck, if you're really trying to get CPS called on you (via abusing your child ). I have a hard time believing you can keep rites on the field without wiping for more than a turn or two before things get out of control. Whenever I play my deck it becomes archenemy pretty quickly, so giving everyone else draws and ramp is a baaad idea imo.
@Delandel - your decklist looks somewhere between the OP and mine.
I'm surprised you don't run high market (not as good as valley but still very good) or corpse dance. Corpse dance is INSANE. Also, why oblivion stone? I play it almost everywhere else, but here it seems sort of redundant. Also I sort of barfed at rites of flourishing. not a fan of horn of greed either. they both seem like kingmakers.
I don't really care that Child is a nuke. That's not my plan.
Volrath's Stronghold is the only recursion engine for Child of Alara in my build because it's a land. I mostly only care about getting 11 lands + Scapeshift. I don't want to run cards like Corpse Dance that don't advance the 10 gate plan. So I only play the two outlets and care significantly about the mana.
Since your build around maximizing Child of Alara, you need Valley in your build. But it's not as good as High Market. Using High Market for mana with Child in play isn't a good play, but why are you focusing on an obvious bad play to highlight that Valley is stronger?
The option to tap for mana isn't useless if Child isn't in play. And Child isn't in play for turns 1-5. You don't mention the cards which allow Valley to tap for mana (Prismatic Omen/Urborg), one of them directly benefits from High Market tapping for mana. If I played Prismatic Omen, I'd need High Market even more to make sure I can play it turn 2.
tuck effects that that people play:
Oblation
Chaos Warp
Hinder/Spell Crumble
Hallowed Burial/Terminus
Spin into Myth
The instants can tuck lands, the counterspells stop your Corpse Dance loop. So from my perspective the strongest tuck effects are going to stop you no matter what kind of board you're trying to shape.
I'm not suggesting for you to stop playing measures like Boseiju. I didn't say..."AH, screw it, don't play Boseiju because why care." Although I do say that specifically for Terra Eternal. I'm only saying that it's not a reason to not play Miren. Especially since you say redundancy is key in an earlier post. Redundancy means you're playing so many effects that any extra effect is un-needed. Only, you're calling for redundancy...so why not play Miren?
I'm not saying to forsake the protections, it's just like how gromgrom was saying how easy it was to disrupt 10 gate and that's why he didn't like it too much as a win-con. Meanwhile every disruption he mentioned could have just as easily disrupted his win-cons as well.
If you're tutoring, you obviously have mana so of course for you're going to pick Valley over Market if you value the life gain. But the point of High Market is that it makes mana early (when Child isn't in play), and since 10 gate requires so many CIPT lands, having lands that make mana is premium.
Early in the game: Market makes mana
Middle of the game: both activate for 0cc
Late in the game: Valley nets you +5 life
The only case Valley is better than Market is if you care about the life gain. You even only mention the life as a marginal benefit. There are many more cases where the mana matters more than the life gain.
If you don't mind posting your build, it would make be nice to see more builds. +30 tutors is kind of strange.
Corpse dance might not "advance your gates" or whatever, but keeping the board clear will help you survive long enough to pull it off.
My deck almost never misses a land drop in the first...forever....turns, so I've always got a mana-land available when I want it. Generally I prefer to play child on 4-5, then play the sac outlet land, so that it can't get stripped or similar before I get a chance to sac child at least once.
I don't get your point about tucking lands. None of those spells can tuck lands except chaos warp. As far as countering corpse dance, if I know I'm playing against counters I usually go for boseiju, however VS is a decent uncounterable recursion engine too (as is emeria, albeit a slow one, or genesis). So as long as I have a sac outlet, the only ones of those that worry me are the counters, which I can combat with boseiju/cavern. Everything is solvable. also, you missed bant charm.
Redundancy is absolutely key. HOWEVER I wouldn't run spell blast as redundancy for counterspell. Being forced to keep 4 lands untapped at all times while child is on the board, which means 9 mana for a corpse dance cycle, is unacceptably worse than the free sac outlet lands. While it's not the WORST thing ever and could occasionally be useful despite the cost, I like to keep the colorless lands count in the deck low so I can cast child (and other stuff) more reliably. I definitely wouldn't want to play a colorless land as one of my first 5 lands unless I absolutely had to, since it means child comes out a turn slower in most cases (although I do run ODY filters to improve this somewhat). I also, as mentioned, don't like telegraphing my sac outlets or giving people a chance to kill them and stall me by playing them without child on the board. I'm not theorycrafting this stuff, I've used both sac outlets extensively, and miren has screwed me over and slowed me down, while diamond valley is reliable and cheap, and the lifegain adds up quickly. People tend to get all aggressive when you're wiping their board repeatedly, so they'll hit you as hard as they can, and 1 life per turn doesn't add up very quickly. But working through wraths PLUS 6 life a turn is quite difficult.
I will agree, however, that the usefulness depends a lot on what your build is. For mine, absolutely, diamond valley all the way. Yours may be different.
I don't use tutors to search out gates. That's stupid. The only tutor or even tutor-effect that I would ever use to search out a gate is Maze's End. You only need to tutor for one card for 10-gate, Scapeshift.
Valakut uses Scapeshift+Omen. I don't imagine you spend 5 tutors to tutor for mountains. So why do you think that's how I'd try to get 10-gate?
It's not about inferior/superior. It's about why you still insist that it's an "all-in risk?" You keep referring to 10-gate as an eleven piece combo but it's not. Scapeshift is the only card you need, just like Valakut (+Omen) win-con.
I think the bigger difference is that you're running 11 really bad lands. So it's "all-in" in the sense that you're dramatically lowering the effectiveness of your manabase for the combo. It might be worth it, though, I haven't tried it. Although generally I feel like the game's in the bag by the time I have 11 lands. That or liberal use of global ruin would make it take forever to get to 11 lands. Mmmmmm, global ruin....so preeettttty....
How is Diamond Valley stronger than High Market? They do the exact same thing except High Market makes mana. 6 life is not worth the mana.
I'd contend that while Diamond Valley costs nothing to activate (therefore giving you a convenient turn 6 timing on Child), the opportunity cost of having yet another land which makes zero mana is very high.
Having a cheap sac activation for Child of Alara is great when you need to sweep the board on the spot. But it's not free. It'll cost you a land drop that makes no mana.
If you absolutely need to wipe the board, that means there's other things that might need tucking more than your Child. And that's IF they have a tuck spell.
I think you're overly concerned with tuck effects when you're discounting Miren.
1.) Your opponent could just as easily tuck your sac outlet land.
2.) Your opponent could just as easily disrupt how you bring Child back.
3.) And if your build is much more controlling and centered around Child of Alara, having Miren in addition to Tower/Market/Valley is amazing.
5 (extra) life is sort of a lot of life, especially if you're doing it frequently. Which, hey, with corpse dance, you're probably doing it frequently. with VS, probably a lot less so. But imo VS is a recursion engine of last resort.
For my build, I always always want a sac outlet available. If high market was my only sac outlet, I'd almost never tap it for mana, so the option to tap for mana is not super useful - almost useless, actually. Although I acknowledge that the build in this thread is different than mine and would benefit more from the mana than my build.
I'd also point out that you can use several cards (one of which is a key card of this deck from what I see) to allow valley to tap for mana.
The time when having a cheap sac outlet is important isn't when you "absolutely need to wipe the board." Thing is, that time rarely actually happens when you play child. Most people will try to wait out the child before playing their bombs, so that they can actually last. BUT, obviously, as long as no one is overextending you don't need to sac child. So you just slowly advance your own position and everyone else really, really wants child to die so they can play their bombs. THAT'S when they'll try to tuck it, and if you're using your mana to advance your board position, you might not have enough to activate miren. THAT'S when you want a free sac outlet so you can avoid getting him tucked. Although it's also nice to be able to play it turn 5-6 with a sac outlet ready to go. I hate having child on board without a sac outlet available. it draws a lot of hate and a lot of tuck.
1) what spells that tuck creatures tuck lands? Actually, screw that, what spells tuck lands period? I mean, there's probably a few? but not many. Mostly it's strip mine. Which is why lftl is the best thing since sliced bread.
2) Sure, there's multiple stages in the process, and any of them can be disruptable. Just because it's a disruptable process, you just throw your hands in the air and say "screw it, I'm not even going to try to protect my synergy"? With lftl backing up your sac outlets, and boseiju making corpse dance uncounterable, and especially with a counterspell or two, it is VERY hard to disrupt repeated wraths.
3) nah, it's just unnecessary. My build has like 30+ tutors, you get to pick your sac outlet of preference. it's like 50/50 phyrexian tower and diamond valley for me. I'd never choose high market or miren. The only reason I run high market is to increase my chances of drawing an outlet without tutoring for it. Miren's bad enough that I'd rather use a tutor and get something that doesn't require open mana to protect the combo.
Then if you need another one, you can play Miren, the Moaning Well. Valley might go in before Grim Backwoods (since it's activation cost is 4cc and requires colors).
3 sac outlets is probably enough. Lands.dec has a high concentration of tutors for a non-combo deck.
Miren is....ok. I took it out of my build. The problem, basically, is that child is a nuke waiting to go off. Which means that you're holding the table for ransom - people won't want to play more permanents until it's off the table. All of which is great, except that if you should tap out of your sac outlet, then people will be VERY happy to take the opportunity to tuck child. And especially when you have a mana-intensive sac outlet like miren, backwoods, and a few other even worse ones I could name but forgot, people will save their tuck spells UNTIL you're tapped out. I've definitely had child tucked while having miren on the field but without the mana to use it - WITH couterspell backup. People tucked it twice.
So, if you want to use child for early control, dropping it on turn 5-6 with miren means people will probably tuck it ASAP before you untap with miren. As long as your sac outlet is no-mana-required, though, like market, tower, and valley, you can keep it available much, much easier, and avoid playing into tuck.
It depends on how much you want to abuse child, basically. If you're rarely using it, then maybe being able to use the land for mana is worth it. For my build, I always always always wanted a sac outlet ready to go, though, and 6 life is pretty amazing, making diamond valley an outstanding card. I'd rank it almost as good as tower, better than market, leagues better than anything that requires mana. But its strength does vary by build.
I agree that playing more High Market/Phyr Tower effects are good. Diamond Valley is overkill though especially since it doesn't make mana. Miren and Grim Backwoods make mana and don't cost ~$100.
Well I wouldn't have suggested it except that he's already running tabernacle, which is considerably more expensive. I've got a valley but I sure don't have a tabernacle.
I'm trying to ease on the proxies, otherwise Diamond Valley. I currently have Phyrexian Tower. I like it over the 1 life sometimes. meh.
global ruin I forgot this card existed... oh boy. Adding it.
corpse dance ooooo. I'm trying to not rely on my general too much (Some games I have trouble casting the atomic baby, or dont need to), but I'll pick one up soon to abuse with the baby.
I don't disagree that phyrexian tower is better than market, but redundancy is always good. Especially if you're going corpse dancing, whether with child or something else. My favorite thing I've done with tower was sac in response to a take possession. RTFC ftw.
corpse dance is just crazy town. There's lots of cards it's amazing with. I love it with child, xiahou dun, STEve, kagemaro, glen elendra archmage, gilded drake...lots and lots of amazing options.
between vivids and shocks...weird comparison, vivids are dirt cheap whereas shocks are moderately expensive. Bang-for-your-buck, vivids. Shocks are more likely to make it into your "final" manabase, although I only run 2 (WU and WG for emeria). If you can get fetches, shocks become a lot better. Without fetches, they're just decent. There's other lands I use that are actually cheaper than shocks - i like a few of the ODY filters, and the cycling lands are excellent thanks to lftl. If your budget is low, I'd go with cheaper options than shocks, they really only get good when you have fetches. If you think you can eventually get fetches, then go ahead and get shocks. Otherwise, there's lots of other, better, cheaper duals out there.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I totally agree with your assessment of why this deck always becomes archenemy, it's sort of hard to avoid. Generally the only way I've figured is to avoid using the corpse dance until you can handle the hate, but that's hit-and-miss as most tutors are conditional and even if you use an unconditional one, people who have played against the deck will know what's up. That said, as long as you're playing a deck as the archenemy, mine is pretty stellar because it generates so much virtual and regular CA it's just ridiculous. Usually I only care about, like, 5-10% of people's decks. Plus it's got so much recursion, counters, and tutors that it's impossible to stop it.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Why would that follow? Forests are fine and necessary and don't etbt. And can be hit with basic land ramp. Although 7 is sort of a lot, I think I run 1-2.
I think I run 3(?) cyclers in the deck but that doesn't mean you're getting more than 1 reliably. But as long as you're getting back 3 lands each time I think it's plenty powerful, and fetches usually provide that easily. dumping stuff in the grave is also really good in general.
I run nonland permanents, but most of them are fine to kill (i.e. STE, glen-elendra archmage, genesis). I think glen elendra is the only one I don't want dead, but persist makes it reasonable.
My reason behind not liking jace is that I don't think this deck can reasonably recur him or protect him. Pretty much any evasion can get to him, and there's very little targeted hate to stop attacks getting through. I wouldn't anticipate getting more than 1 brainstorm out of him before he eats it for good.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
sure, global ruin kills my sac outlets and such, which is why I either hold them or make sure I have a lftl. If you wipe with child and then global ruin it's pretty brutal on most decks. I don't run maze's end or valakut. I don't get to play this deck hardly ever, everyone hated it too much. Only if I go to a new group, and even then, they usually want me to switch soon
crucible is great, but not for my deck.
lftl is perfectly great with 1 cycler and some fetches, just making sure you hit your drops. It's also great with tolaria west. You only need 1 cycler to protect it very well from exile.
i'm confused what you mean about the bad lands replacing forests and other cards.
i have a hard time believing jace is worth it in this deck. speaking as a guy who has one.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
yes, he returns to play. nim deathmantle will still be dead though. the equip part obviously fails to happen.
My list is on my old phone which is dead, but I'm charging it up. Can't seem to find it on my computer anywhere, unfortunately.
I don't run crucible because my deck relies heavily on locking people down with child of alara. I usually wrath every turn, or at a minimum every other turn, usually starting on turn 5-6. recurring crucible is too much effort to do that often. Actually I don't really have any good ways to recur artifacts at all iirc, just creatures. I guess I could use ewit but that's a lot of effort. I agree that it's great for most decks in this vein but I really can't support any non-land permanents that I don't want being destroyed in my build.
personally i wouldn't take out the cycling lands, I love 'em with lftl, but it's your call.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I wouldn't "hope to draw into" corpse dance, it's usually tutor target #2 for me (#1 being intuition, which I usually use to set up lftl + sac out + boseiju/cavern/fetch/VS/emeria/strip, or genesis + ewit + glen elendra archmage if i'm feeling weird and I think I can get away with it). If I happen to have a sac outlet already, then it's usually tutor target #1.
you're running more extra land drops that me so I guess I'll take your word about it for the horn. I still have no intention to play it, though.
I don't doubt that hitting an extra land drop is nice for your deck, but exploration gives you that, asymmetrically, for 1 mana instead of 3, and doesn't give your enemies huge advantages. Plus they could be playing more draw that enables them to get double drops all day. Giving a good mono-blue deck double land drops and extra draws seems really dangerous to me, and you have so little control outside of child, which still can't really be properly abused without corpse dance. If someone drops a consecrated sphinx so they're drawing 8+ cards every turn cycle and hitting extra land drops to boot, I feel like you're going to get stomped instantly.
Hmm, yeah I don't like stadium. But then I also prefer not to run crucible in this deck since I prefer lftl. Since you're going for a more permanent-based deck maybe it makes more sense. I also can get diamond valley way more reliably.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
i run fool's demise too, but corpse dance is just absurd. just incredibly powerful, and so impossible to stop with boseiju. fool's demise has some fun flexibility, but it's much easier to stop. instant-speed removal 2-for-1s you, and it can't be protected from counters. Two removal spells break it, and if the second one is a tuck...bummer for you. Plus it lets your opponents have more control over when child goes off - they can force your hand with removal. Corpse dance you can wait until you absolutely need to wrath to put child onto the board.
you know horn only works with playing lands, right? no double-draws off fetches and most ramp spells don't help. I only see a few cards that give you extra drops. I mean I can see it giving you a (semi) reliable 2 draws a turn, but I wouldn't consider that worth it when the rest of the table as a whole is probably drawing quite a bit more.
Rites is one of my all-time least favorite cards. Everyone else gets MORE milage since they get first draws, and giving non-green decks extra land drops seems like suicide to me, especially since i see no counterspells in your deck. Whenever I see group-hug decks pilot it, things always get stupid in a big hurry, and rarely in a huggy way.
Also I have a general prejudice against any nonland permanents in this deck, if you're really trying to get CPS called on you (via abusing your child ). I have a hard time believing you can keep rites on the field without wiping for more than a turn or two before things get out of control. Whenever I play my deck it becomes archenemy pretty quickly, so giving everyone else draws and ramp is a baaad idea imo.
btw, what's with nomad stadium? i don't get it.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I'm surprised you don't run high market (not as good as valley but still very good) or corpse dance. Corpse dance is INSANE. Also, why oblivion stone? I play it almost everywhere else, but here it seems sort of redundant. Also I sort of barfed at rites of flourishing. not a fan of horn of greed either. they both seem like kingmakers.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Corpse dance might not "advance your gates" or whatever, but keeping the board clear will help you survive long enough to pull it off.
My deck almost never misses a land drop in the first...forever....turns, so I've always got a mana-land available when I want it. Generally I prefer to play child on 4-5, then play the sac outlet land, so that it can't get stripped or similar before I get a chance to sac child at least once.
I don't get your point about tucking lands. None of those spells can tuck lands except chaos warp. As far as countering corpse dance, if I know I'm playing against counters I usually go for boseiju, however VS is a decent uncounterable recursion engine too (as is emeria, albeit a slow one, or genesis). So as long as I have a sac outlet, the only ones of those that worry me are the counters, which I can combat with boseiju/cavern. Everything is solvable. also, you missed bant charm.
Redundancy is absolutely key. HOWEVER I wouldn't run spell blast as redundancy for counterspell. Being forced to keep 4 lands untapped at all times while child is on the board, which means 9 mana for a corpse dance cycle, is unacceptably worse than the free sac outlet lands. While it's not the WORST thing ever and could occasionally be useful despite the cost, I like to keep the colorless lands count in the deck low so I can cast child (and other stuff) more reliably. I definitely wouldn't want to play a colorless land as one of my first 5 lands unless I absolutely had to, since it means child comes out a turn slower in most cases (although I do run ODY filters to improve this somewhat). I also, as mentioned, don't like telegraphing my sac outlets or giving people a chance to kill them and stall me by playing them without child on the board. I'm not theorycrafting this stuff, I've used both sac outlets extensively, and miren has screwed me over and slowed me down, while diamond valley is reliable and cheap, and the lifegain adds up quickly. People tend to get all aggressive when you're wiping their board repeatedly, so they'll hit you as hard as they can, and 1 life per turn doesn't add up very quickly. But working through wraths PLUS 6 life a turn is quite difficult.
I will agree, however, that the usefulness depends a lot on what your build is. For mine, absolutely, diamond valley all the way. Yours may be different.
I think the bigger difference is that you're running 11 really bad lands. So it's "all-in" in the sense that you're dramatically lowering the effectiveness of your manabase for the combo. It might be worth it, though, I haven't tried it. Although generally I feel like the game's in the bag by the time I have 11 lands. That or liberal use of global ruin would make it take forever to get to 11 lands. Mmmmmm, global ruin....so preeettttty....
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
5 (extra) life is sort of a lot of life, especially if you're doing it frequently. Which, hey, with corpse dance, you're probably doing it frequently. with VS, probably a lot less so. But imo VS is a recursion engine of last resort.
For my build, I always always want a sac outlet available. If high market was my only sac outlet, I'd almost never tap it for mana, so the option to tap for mana is not super useful - almost useless, actually. Although I acknowledge that the build in this thread is different than mine and would benefit more from the mana than my build.
I'd also point out that you can use several cards (one of which is a key card of this deck from what I see) to allow valley to tap for mana.
The time when having a cheap sac outlet is important isn't when you "absolutely need to wipe the board." Thing is, that time rarely actually happens when you play child. Most people will try to wait out the child before playing their bombs, so that they can actually last. BUT, obviously, as long as no one is overextending you don't need to sac child. So you just slowly advance your own position and everyone else really, really wants child to die so they can play their bombs. THAT'S when they'll try to tuck it, and if you're using your mana to advance your board position, you might not have enough to activate miren. THAT'S when you want a free sac outlet so you can avoid getting him tucked. Although it's also nice to be able to play it turn 5-6 with a sac outlet ready to go. I hate having child on board without a sac outlet available. it draws a lot of hate and a lot of tuck.
1) what spells that tuck creatures tuck lands? Actually, screw that, what spells tuck lands period? I mean, there's probably a few? but not many. Mostly it's strip mine. Which is why lftl is the best thing since sliced bread.
2) Sure, there's multiple stages in the process, and any of them can be disruptable. Just because it's a disruptable process, you just throw your hands in the air and say "screw it, I'm not even going to try to protect my synergy"? With lftl backing up your sac outlets, and boseiju making corpse dance uncounterable, and especially with a counterspell or two, it is VERY hard to disrupt repeated wraths.
3) nah, it's just unnecessary. My build has like 30+ tutors, you get to pick your sac outlet of preference. it's like 50/50 phyrexian tower and diamond valley for me. I'd never choose high market or miren. The only reason I run high market is to increase my chances of drawing an outlet without tutoring for it. Miren's bad enough that I'd rather use a tutor and get something that doesn't require open mana to protect the combo.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Miren is....ok. I took it out of my build. The problem, basically, is that child is a nuke waiting to go off. Which means that you're holding the table for ransom - people won't want to play more permanents until it's off the table. All of which is great, except that if you should tap out of your sac outlet, then people will be VERY happy to take the opportunity to tuck child. And especially when you have a mana-intensive sac outlet like miren, backwoods, and a few other even worse ones I could name but forgot, people will save their tuck spells UNTIL you're tapped out. I've definitely had child tucked while having miren on the field but without the mana to use it - WITH couterspell backup. People tucked it twice.
So, if you want to use child for early control, dropping it on turn 5-6 with miren means people will probably tuck it ASAP before you untap with miren. As long as your sac outlet is no-mana-required, though, like market, tower, and valley, you can keep it available much, much easier, and avoid playing into tuck.
It depends on how much you want to abuse child, basically. If you're rarely using it, then maybe being able to use the land for mana is worth it. For my build, I always always always wanted a sac outlet ready to go, though, and 6 life is pretty amazing, making diamond valley an outstanding card. I'd rank it almost as good as tower, better than market, leagues better than anything that requires mana. But its strength does vary by build.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Well I wouldn't have suggested it except that he's already running tabernacle, which is considerably more expensive. I've got a valley but I sure don't have a tabernacle.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I don't disagree that phyrexian tower is better than market, but redundancy is always good. Especially if you're going corpse dancing, whether with child or something else. My favorite thing I've done with tower was sac in response to a take possession. RTFC ftw.
corpse dance is just crazy town. There's lots of cards it's amazing with. I love it with child, xiahou dun, STEve, kagemaro, glen elendra archmage, gilded drake...lots and lots of amazing options.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
also, with your mana base, global ruin is killer.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6