Im not that excited about Ramos, dragon engine, because its pretty vulnerable with the creature./ artifacts sub types. Ive used both Mirari's Wake and Mana reflection which have similar but less powerful effect with a much greater resilence by being enchantments, and ultimately removed them because if they manage to survive its very likely that you have an advantage.
On the other hand, after seeing the Ixalan leak, the Arcane adaptation enchantment looks highly playable, as its cheap (2U) and it basically turns your non sliver thralls in play or not in play into tutorable slivers. It looks that you can easily take advantage of it at least once easily or could fly under the radar if more threatening cards are active
I think that Paradox Engine is an extremely useful tool, as it has proven its worth in many of other decks.
Imma replace Amoeboid Changeling with Vizier of the Menagerie. The first one has limited utility because it requires to lower (or not have) your shields, and so, it rarely gets activated. The latter helps fixing mana for creatures (priority) and makes me not fold hard to Blood Moon effects.
what would you tutor with hull? Three 2 ccc mana slivers? 1 legendary and Galerider sliver?
By the time you get enough mana And get a sac outlet for him you would already have some board presence. For me its best to be advancing rather than just pull all your important slivers at once, that could leave you open for a Merciless Eviction
The Vizier of the Menagerie IS a very interesting card, that first, fixes your mana AND allows you to dig through your library. As a fan of Future sight I know how important is to dig. Last but not least, this is an answer to Blood Moon
On the other hand, I think that a full combo approach should get plenty of counterspells. If you are in a meta with Zurs, Scions, Arcums, Tazri, counterspells are a life saver. Dont forget that most of those mentioned are much faster than you
Heh well, a correction I need to make is that just a few slivers are worth 1 mana.
Just use the greaves if you want, but for me is a waste of space as they arent easily tutorable and add nothing new to the hive. The way you mention that can allow to combo doesnt need them because Basal Sliver already goes to infinite with Training grounds. In my oppinion, instead of pulling out all the slivers from the deck to kill with combat damage ( and risk a overloaded cyclonic rift staple) you should combo out and insta kill the opponents.
No slivers are worth 1 mana and I think that you would get better value with Sentinel Sliver if you attack and after combat tap the slivers for mana.
Im not saying that the greaves are bad, they are a staple in commander for a reason, but I think that slivers by themselves have more value and that slot could be used with something else.
On the other hand Mind's eye vs Rhystic study. Study wins as enchantment removal is rarer than artifact removal, besides that YOU dont need to pay extra mana, your opponents have to if they dont want to give you extra cards. Again if your meta allows you such things by all means go for it, however I dont have the luxury of time in many of my matches, and you probably wont if you earn the title of archenemy with your sliver deck
I think that the Bow of Nylea or Venom sliver being better depends on which deck you are using them. I can see th sliver being better in an aggro version, where getting a wall of first strike death touch blockers is feasible, however, that isnt the case with the control/combo route where its likely that slivers got cut out for counterspells amd such.
For that type of deck the bow is better.
- take down a Kaalia from the vast? Check
- recover cards from the graveyard? Check
- recover some life because you hace taken hits instead of sliver combo pieces you want to protect? Check
- Buff a creature so it can avoid -x/-x effects? check
- Your opponent is dangerously low on life? Just attack and destroy his defenses. Check
The utility of the bow far exceeds the bonus from the sliver, but as I said before, it depends on the deck archetype.
The greaves are a staple of voltron commander decks, and although the Overlord can go voltron I find the greaves lack luster because they arent easily tutorable and Crystalline Sliver not only is tutorable, but also gives protection to itself and all the other slivers. You could argue that it gives redundancy, but I would prefer to tutor for alternate protection (should crystalline being killed) like Hibernation Sliver which even that cost more mana (and life) protects the slivers from board wipes, sacrifices, etc. things regular shroud cant protect from.
TLDR version: Greaves are lackluster to what slivers already provide, save the spot for another answer or threat.
Last but not least.
Slivers are *not* nice, I guess that the easiest you could go would be aggro in a multiplayer meta.
But I would definitely prefer to change decks in casual meta.
1.- Vs: Narset, Sidisi and 2 other commanders that I dont remember. Crazy stuff was happening everywhere, cleaned the board and began sculpting my hand for combo while resistimg enemy atks. On a given turn I managed to play Queen and basal, leading to an infinite mill combo.
2.- Vs: Ayli, Scion and Derevi. Ayli accidentally killed Rector and I get Omniscience in play, Derevi attempts to destroy it and I counter. Ayly realizes her mistake and casts Wrath of God, I tutor for flash sliver and flash Hivelord in resisting the wrath. After that I receive turn, Scion scoops and I tutor for Legion, Bonescythe and Blur.
3.- Vs Kaalia. I get an aggro hand and proceed to crush her. Mana reflection was available, but had no need to cast it.
4.- Vs Sigarda. I go the control route and fail to control her, she destroys me via voltron. Mirari's wake kept looking cool on my hand.
5.- Vs Sidisi. She gets a good starting hand and I start ramping. She quickly gets to a level in which I had to devote resources to control the board, couldnt find the time to cast Mirari's Wake.
6.- Vs Kalemne and Mizzix: Kalemne gets the god hand and starts putting tons of pressure via hasted creatures, Mizzix controls him and attempts to get Omniscience in play which I counter. I had a ton of mana available and sculpt my hand. Kalemne and her partners get out of hand thanks to Gisela and almost kills both of us in one turn (he got greedy), but we managed to barely resist. Mizzix desperately builds up his defences and passes turn, with both opponents tapped out I pull out the Purphoros infinite damage combo.
7.- Vs. Kaalia and Sigarda: I play very conservately and just ramp while holding counters in hand. After some turns Kaalia manages to pull put Rakdos and aims him to me, I get hit and cant recover from the sacrifices I had to do.
8.- Vs Ulamog and Narset: Ulamog had the most advanced board. I manage to pull out a Seedborn Muse and go crazy with all the untapping flashing in a lot of slivers. Won via the flying voltron style.
Ok, there are a lot more. The point is that the extra mana cards were usually not relevant in my win %. Thats why I say they are win more cards and probably should be removed.
I dont think that adding just 3-4 extra slivers would make this an aggro deck, just slighty increase the chances of getting a fast start. Otherwise I think the only good sliver that could deserve going in is the vigilance one to getmdouble value from the slivers, and that would leave slots open for... More conterspells?
I have found that the extra mana cards like Mana echoes, Mirari's wake and Mana Reflection are working like that. I mean, the deck should be able to work without them, but they are great when they are up.
However, since I usually cant find the proper time to cast them, Ive decided to remove them in favor of more slivers and had to include those (usually removed) +1/+1 ones. Why? Because when Im in 1 vs 1, if I begin playing slivers early (specially the haste ones) I usually get the upper hand and the opponent cannot recover.
I think that those extra mana enchantments (if they are going to be included) should all be included for redundancy or all of them removed at once.
However, after seeing those results I think that having a bit of aggro isnt bad at all, as slivers have always been great at that (just play the modern version). Just imagine this: T1 land, T2 land and Sinew sliver, T3 land and Blur Sliver, T4 Land and Bone Scythe Sliver, then T5: Land and Sliver Overlord.
Thoughts?
Those are definitely interesting, however as a 5 color deck there is a lot of competition for targeted removal spell slots. I would keep Anguished Unmaking and/or Vindicate which if not answered at the moment, deal with the card, otherwise it would be very unfortunate if they draw Krosan Grip or something similar.
Rumpley: after some deep thinking, I concluded that I cant give you any real suggestions. Perhaps I could say that you need more ramp and card drawing, but our decks are very different from each other, so also, the playstyle is different. Yours looks like Aggro slivers, and since you have tons of tutors perhaps you could try the Hivelord as commander.
Maltekoot: Your deck is a mix of really expensive cards with others that are often used as budget replacements. I suggest that you decide where are you gonna play this (paper deck, magic online, or other internet way for free) and from that focus on how much (or how little) you will expend on the deck.
Now, if you do have the deck then:
Remove: Coat of Arms get Sliver Legion
Slow fetches and pain lands get battle (for zendikar) lands and artifact mana rock staples. Door of Destinies get Mirror Entity Crystal Quarry
I thought sideboarding in commander wasnt really allowed, dunno why, although it seems largely ineffectie due to the deck's size, and also there are new cards coming that are similar.
I guess a small list of silver bullets would be Pithing Needle: Shut down a commander Stony Silence: Neutralize artifacts Ivory mask: Why waste extra $ with leyline if you are going to hard cast it Leyline of the void: Doesnt affect your recursion Blood Moon: You got your own answers for this
Etc.
Any other comments about wish cards?
Will appreciate other honest oppinions about the usage of this card
Has anyone tried Golden Wish?
Since this deck is 5 colors, it has access to many of the best hate cards that could provide an answer to an specific situation. The restriction to enchantments or artifacts is rarely hindering as (specially white) there are more than enough variety.
Just imagine casting this to fetch a Blood Moon, Propaganda, Rest in Peace, Damping Matrix, etc.
Since commander doesnt have a sideboard, I guess that you could fetch cards from your binder.
After reading the whole 26 pages, watching sliver videos and making my own deck I have seen these things:
1.- EDH isnt a casual format where people play just for fun. Its a format where even the casualest of playgroups will be plagued by tier 1-2 generals with expensive, just the best from the best cards and infinite combos.
2.- Its hard to not "pull aggro" when playing slivers, people know that they get out of control fast. So you may as well fullfill their expectatives by building a deadly deck.
3.- The Overlord as general is slow, so you got 99 slots to make up for it.
4.- Sadly, if you want to make a competitive slivers deck, you must loose a bit of flavor and get non sliver cards. Thats the only way you will have a decent chance at winning.
5.- Mana base: I disagree that the best setup is all ABUR duals, all shocks, all fetches and some utility lands, as this is not only ridiculously expensive, but also slow. You got to have at least 2 of each basic lands to have a decent chance to use green land ramp. Usually you get 1-2 extra mana per 2 mana spent on green ramp spells, which is a much cheaper than relying on artifact mana rocks (which should be used anyways but not massively), this is critical because the tutor effect of the Sliver Overlord isnt cheap. Also you dont need any filters like signets, filter lands or Crystal Quarry. The quarry is specially bad because you are often tapping 6 permanents to get 5 mana with it, which is horrible. An ideal but customizable in budget land base, would be a mix of ABUR duals, shock lands, fetch lands, slow fetches (mirage + Krosan Verge), check/battle lands, utility and 1-2 basic lands of each type. If you cant achieve consistently WURBG by turn 4-6 or consistently at turn 6, you got to rework your land base. Yes I know that there is subtype land ramp, but if you want to rely on it (to keep the non basic landbase) you will cut the available green ramp spells for you, therefore you are risking speed. Yes I know that land ramp is susceptible to Armageddon, but by definition slivers have answers to that. Also, another reason to have basics are Blood Moon effects, which can make you concede at the spot.
6.- Being a 5 color deck means that you can and should use the best from the best stuff, *but* keep your mana curve low. Which means that you should look at value, card advantage and tricks.
7.- Even that this kind of deck has the options to go from Voltron to Combo or Aggro swarm, it should be able to advance if the overlord isnt in play.
8.- Infinite combos should exist in every EDH deck, so you can finish the game on the spot if needed. Ideally these should be 3 card combos with at least 2 pieces tutorable by the King.
Im building a deck which has elements of control / ramp and should be able to change plans according to the situation, right now you can check it here. It has a pretty decent win rate, however Im still busy with it refining the last slots
On the other hand, after seeing the Ixalan leak, the Arcane adaptation enchantment looks highly playable, as its cheap (2U) and it basically turns your non sliver thralls in play or not in play into tutorable slivers. It looks that you can easily take advantage of it at least once easily or could fly under the radar if more threatening cards are active
Imma replace Amoeboid Changeling with Vizier of the Menagerie. The first one has limited utility because it requires to lower (or not have) your shields, and so, it rarely gets activated. The latter helps fixing mana for creatures (priority) and makes me not fold hard to Blood Moon effects.
By the time you get enough mana And get a sac outlet for him you would already have some board presence. For me its best to be advancing rather than just pull all your important slivers at once, that could leave you open for a Merciless Eviction
The Vizier of the Menagerie IS a very interesting card, that first, fixes your mana AND allows you to dig through your library. As a fan of Future sight I know how important is to dig. Last but not least, this is an answer to Blood Moon
On the other hand, I think that a full combo approach should get plenty of counterspells. If you are in a meta with Zurs, Scions, Arcums, Tazri, counterspells are a life saver. Dont forget that most of those mentioned are much faster than you
Just use the greaves if you want, but for me is a waste of space as they arent easily tutorable and add nothing new to the hive. The way you mention that can allow to combo doesnt need them because Basal Sliver already goes to infinite with Training grounds. In my oppinion, instead of pulling out all the slivers from the deck to kill with combat damage ( and risk a overloaded cyclonic rift staple) you should combo out and insta kill the opponents.
Im not saying that the greaves are bad, they are a staple in commander for a reason, but I think that slivers by themselves have more value and that slot could be used with something else.
On the other hand Mind's eye vs Rhystic study. Study wins as enchantment removal is rarer than artifact removal, besides that YOU dont need to pay extra mana, your opponents have to if they dont want to give you extra cards. Again if your meta allows you such things by all means go for it, however I dont have the luxury of time in many of my matches, and you probably wont if you earn the title of archenemy with your sliver deck
For that type of deck the bow is better.
- take down a Kaalia from the vast? Check
- recover cards from the graveyard? Check
- recover some life because you hace taken hits instead of sliver combo pieces you want to protect? Check
- Buff a creature so it can avoid -x/-x effects? check
- Your opponent is dangerously low on life? Just attack and destroy his defenses. Check
The utility of the bow far exceeds the bonus from the sliver, but as I said before, it depends on the deck archetype.
The greaves are a staple of voltron commander decks, and although the Overlord can go voltron I find the greaves lack luster because they arent easily tutorable and Crystalline Sliver not only is tutorable, but also gives protection to itself and all the other slivers. You could argue that it gives redundancy, but I would prefer to tutor for alternate protection (should crystalline being killed) like Hibernation Sliver which even that cost more mana (and life) protects the slivers from board wipes, sacrifices, etc. things regular shroud cant protect from.
TLDR version: Greaves are lackluster to what slivers already provide, save the spot for another answer or threat.
Last but not least.
Slivers are *not* nice, I guess that the easiest you could go would be aggro in a multiplayer meta.
But I would definitely prefer to change decks in casual meta.
1.- Vs: Narset, Sidisi and 2 other commanders that I dont remember. Crazy stuff was happening everywhere, cleaned the board and began sculpting my hand for combo while resistimg enemy atks. On a given turn I managed to play Queen and basal, leading to an infinite mill combo.
2.- Vs: Ayli, Scion and Derevi. Ayli accidentally killed Rector and I get Omniscience in play, Derevi attempts to destroy it and I counter. Ayly realizes her mistake and casts Wrath of God, I tutor for flash sliver and flash Hivelord in resisting the wrath. After that I receive turn, Scion scoops and I tutor for Legion, Bonescythe and Blur.
3.- Vs Kaalia. I get an aggro hand and proceed to crush her. Mana reflection was available, but had no need to cast it.
4.- Vs Sigarda. I go the control route and fail to control her, she destroys me via voltron. Mirari's wake kept looking cool on my hand.
5.- Vs Sidisi. She gets a good starting hand and I start ramping. She quickly gets to a level in which I had to devote resources to control the board, couldnt find the time to cast Mirari's Wake.
6.- Vs Kalemne and Mizzix: Kalemne gets the god hand and starts putting tons of pressure via hasted creatures, Mizzix controls him and attempts to get Omniscience in play which I counter. I had a ton of mana available and sculpt my hand. Kalemne and her partners get out of hand thanks to Gisela and almost kills both of us in one turn (he got greedy), but we managed to barely resist. Mizzix desperately builds up his defences and passes turn, with both opponents tapped out I pull out the Purphoros infinite damage combo.
7.- Vs. Kaalia and Sigarda: I play very conservately and just ramp while holding counters in hand. After some turns Kaalia manages to pull put Rakdos and aims him to me, I get hit and cant recover from the sacrifices I had to do.
8.- Vs Ulamog and Narset: Ulamog had the most advanced board. I manage to pull out a Seedborn Muse and go crazy with all the untapping flashing in a lot of slivers. Won via the flying voltron style.
Ok, there are a lot more. The point is that the extra mana cards were usually not relevant in my win %. Thats why I say they are win more cards and probably should be removed.
I dont think that adding just 3-4 extra slivers would make this an aggro deck, just slighty increase the chances of getting a fast start. Otherwise I think the only good sliver that could deserve going in is the vigilance one to getmdouble value from the slivers, and that would leave slots open for... More conterspells?
I have found that the extra mana cards like Mana echoes, Mirari's wake and Mana Reflection are working like that. I mean, the deck should be able to work without them, but they are great when they are up.
However, since I usually cant find the proper time to cast them, Ive decided to remove them in favor of more slivers and had to include those (usually removed) +1/+1 ones. Why? Because when Im in 1 vs 1, if I begin playing slivers early (specially the haste ones) I usually get the upper hand and the opponent cannot recover.
I think that those extra mana enchantments (if they are going to be included) should all be included for redundancy or all of them removed at once.
However, after seeing those results I think that having a bit of aggro isnt bad at all, as slivers have always been great at that (just play the modern version). Just imagine this: T1 land, T2 land and Sinew sliver, T3 land and Blur Sliver, T4 Land and Bone Scythe Sliver, then T5: Land and Sliver Overlord.
Thoughts?
Maltekoot: Your deck is a mix of really expensive cards with others that are often used as budget replacements. I suggest that you decide where are you gonna play this (paper deck, magic online, or other internet way for free) and from that focus on how much (or how little) you will expend on the deck.
Now, if you do have the deck then:
Remove:
Coat of Arms get Sliver Legion
Slow fetches and pain lands get battle (for zendikar) lands and artifact mana rock staples.
Door of Destinies get Mirror Entity
Crystal Quarry
Thats all for now
I guess a small list of silver bullets would be
Pithing Needle: Shut down a commander
Stony Silence: Neutralize artifacts
Ivory mask: Why waste extra $ with leyline if you are going to hard cast it
Leyline of the void: Doesnt affect your recursion
Blood Moon: You got your own answers for this
Etc.
Any other comments about wish cards?
Will appreciate other honest oppinions about the usage of this card
Since this deck is 5 colors, it has access to many of the best hate cards that could provide an answer to an specific situation. The restriction to enchantments or artifacts is rarely hindering as (specially white) there are more than enough variety.
Just imagine casting this to fetch a Blood Moon, Propaganda, Rest in Peace, Damping Matrix, etc.
Since commander doesnt have a sideboard, I guess that you could fetch cards from your binder.
1.- EDH isnt a casual format where people play just for fun. Its a format where even the casualest of playgroups will be plagued by tier 1-2 generals with expensive, just the best from the best cards and infinite combos.
2.- Its hard to not "pull aggro" when playing slivers, people know that they get out of control fast. So you may as well fullfill their expectatives by building a deadly deck.
3.- The Overlord as general is slow, so you got 99 slots to make up for it.
4.- Sadly, if you want to make a competitive slivers deck, you must loose a bit of flavor and get non sliver cards. Thats the only way you will have a decent chance at winning.
5.- Mana base: I disagree that the best setup is all ABUR duals, all shocks, all fetches and some utility lands, as this is not only ridiculously expensive, but also slow. You got to have at least 2 of each basic lands to have a decent chance to use green land ramp. Usually you get 1-2 extra mana per 2 mana spent on green ramp spells, which is a much cheaper than relying on artifact mana rocks (which should be used anyways but not massively), this is critical because the tutor effect of the Sliver Overlord isnt cheap. Also you dont need any filters like signets, filter lands or Crystal Quarry. The quarry is specially bad because you are often tapping 6 permanents to get 5 mana with it, which is horrible. An ideal but customizable in budget land base, would be a mix of ABUR duals, shock lands, fetch lands, slow fetches (mirage + Krosan Verge), check/battle lands, utility and 1-2 basic lands of each type. If you cant achieve consistently WURBG by turn 4-6 or consistently at turn 6, you got to rework your land base. Yes I know that there is subtype land ramp, but if you want to rely on it (to keep the non basic landbase) you will cut the available green ramp spells for you, therefore you are risking speed. Yes I know that land ramp is susceptible to Armageddon, but by definition slivers have answers to that. Also, another reason to have basics are Blood Moon effects, which can make you concede at the spot.
6.- Being a 5 color deck means that you can and should use the best from the best stuff, *but* keep your mana curve low. Which means that you should look at value, card advantage and tricks.
7.- Even that this kind of deck has the options to go from Voltron to Combo or Aggro swarm, it should be able to advance if the overlord isnt in play.
8.- Infinite combos should exist in every EDH deck, so you can finish the game on the spot if needed. Ideally these should be 3 card combos with at least 2 pieces tutorable by the King.
Im building a deck which has elements of control / ramp and should be able to change plans according to the situation, right now you can check it here. It has a pretty decent win rate, however Im still busy with it refining the last slots