Honestly the only new Slivers I will be using is Galerider and Manaweft. Also planning on getting my hands on a Mutavault and MAYBE a Door of Destinies. (Both reprints) I really do NOT like a lot of the other ones.
Well, I got all the cards in the mail, put it together (Sleeving it in brown Dragonshields, because who thinks brown is threatening) and played a game with my girlfriend. (After opening a Box and a fat pack of RTR)
Guess who slept on the couch last night?
The All stars of the game had to be Sliver Legion, Ward Sliver, and Virulent Sliver.
Game 1 I managed to get a large enough aggro presence early on and she couldn't keep up. Sliver Legion for the Overkill. (She also said her draws sucked)
Turn 2 had me down to 18 life and 1 or two slivers for 1/2 the game, but then I was able to Slivercycling (via homing sliver) for a Harmonic sliver to take care of her Oblivion Stone, then grab a Gemhide (via Cycling), cast overlord to get Legion and draw into the Virulent Sliver. A ward Sliver also got cast and gaurenteed me the game. This is a very mana intensive deck, I have noticed.
Fun Fun, can't wait to test it out against more people.
I have yet to think seriously about an aggro variant that could work; yours is the first prototype I get my brains to work on. At first glance, I'm inclined to try out stuff that sets up a reanimation scenario and some of the cards we've talked about, things I haven't suggested because you're on budget...
- I mean, Survival of the Fittest is one of the most awesome cards ever printed for creature decks, and is priced accordingly. (Which means it costs an arm and a leg.)
- In a similar vein, a more recent thing to try out would be Birthing Pod.
- Also Elvish Piper and Fauna Shaman.
- If you ever got to play the Legion with 4+ slivers in play then Greater Good becomes beyond awesome, but it's exaggeratedly convoluted. If you rack your brains and come up with a creative way to deploy it, I'm all ears.
It all boils down on how much are you willing to spend. I don't even want to dedicate a single instant to measuring the cost of my own deck, but it was worth it.
As a starting point, I'd say your list is okay, but since you're a sliver fan I can tell you're not going to stop there. How about this: let's get to work on a cool aggro list together, budget restrictions be damned, and we can feature it on the thread starter when it's done. This way you'll know what to aim for.
Root Sliver - I should be - Root sliver is there now. What should I dump for it? I missed it somehow =(
I considered Birthing Pod, but cut it because the ladder would be too low too get a lot out of it. I want to keep slivers on the field as well. I have birthing Pod in my Riku EDH and it works wonders. Fauna Shamen and Piper could be add ins if I find a particular sliver not working well.
This is exactly what I'm going for starting off - An aggro deck thats fun to play, and something I can build off of. - My current playgroup ranges from Kaalia, Riku (My only other EDH deck lol), Mimeoplasm, Gisela, Niv, Skullbriarer, things like that.
And your absoultely right about me being a Sliver Fan, when I first saw them I fell in love with how they worked and decided I would have a Slvier deck one day. Now is that day.
Unfortunately, cash is a big factor right now. (The only reason I'm able to do this is because I sold my Kindle Fire, and am probably going to trade some pots and pans for the Queen / Legion.) Maybe down the line I can trade for some better cards, especially the Shock lands, but for now the pricing is right where I want it.
As for helping you put together an Aggro list, I'd have to say most of my input would be nonsensical. Let me get a few games under my belt and then maybe I can speak of the glory of aggro slivers. Until then I'm a newbie. You and everyone else in this thread that has helped me are like giants. Even if I build it and it fails, I can always say I had fun building it.
If you going to stick any dual lands, you should take a look at the mana pie in your deck page at Tapped Out and choose accordingly.
The City and the Coliseum make you pay quite a hefty price for their benefit, the City in particular. I'd stick with the Coliseum and grab a Reflecting Pool while I'm at it. Exotic Orchard can be interesting, too, but hinges heavily on whatever you're facing at the moment--think about the other decks in your pod for a second and consider whether they'll make that card useless or not.
The Arena is very useful, but on it's own it won't be particularly effective, especially since you can't tutor it--and you can't protect it either. I would suggest you go for group hug-ish things (and more than just one) if you want to draw more and you're not going to pack countermagic or stuff that makes your permanents harder to target. I'm at a loss of suggestions... I can only offer some advice on what did not work for me when trying out aggro:
- Rhystic Study in your case won't be good since you can't protect it. (On the contrary, since it annoys the hell out of everyone else, it may provoke the table into squashing you. Or worse, a blue player may steal it.)
- Experimenting with things like Howling Mine was disastrous: everyone would draw one extra card before I did, and it would be blown up before I got to profit from it. Ditto Font of Mythos.
I'll put Arena on the backburner for now. Reflecting pool is kind of expensive but I'll keep it in mind. i think I'll toss in my Rootbound Crag and Seachrome Coast, just by looking at the mana pie.
With those additions, I think its done? All thats left to do is mass order it off of TCGPlayer and playtest the crap out of it.
Last chance to let me know if I'm making any huge mistakes on the list lol.
<Rubs eyes sleepily>... Uhhh... good morn--WHA?! Wow, you guys have been busy
Fill up the remaining spots with lands, says I. Years of hard-earned experience say 36-37 lands to be the magic number
Off-topic: good to see you around again, Danz & Gref. The primer is being mulled over by the committee. Anything you want to add?
Tossed Clot sliver back in for crypt sliver.
And which lands? I just remebered I have: Rootbound Crag, DragonSkull Summit, and Seachrome Coast chilling in my binder. I also have a Vivid Creek, Vivid Crag, and Vivid Grove. Would these be better than the trilands I have in there now? How about City of Brass or Grand Coliseum?
Cut Faces of the Past. Cheap trick triggered by death of a sliver. Seedborn Muse if you must untap. Cut. I can live without it. May not be all that useful.
Cut Toxin Sliver. Pseudo deathtouch is only ok. Isn't this deathtouch with no regeneration? Its kind of expensive but seems pretty good to me.
Cut Hunter Sliver. Provoke is cool, but it usually leads to getting double blocked and few slivers are inherently beefy enough to survive that sort of thing. Cut.
Cut Firewake Sliver. We don't like sacrifice unless it wins games outright. You could probably think of a few other slivers this applys to. Keep because of haste and like you said, the sac cam mean winning games. As for other "sac slivers" Im thinking about board wipes where I can get some use out of them before they are gone.
Cut Skullclamp. Your slivers will probably be too fat to clamp by the time you have enough to clamp in the first place. Clamp is there for when they die by battle, sac, or anything really. Its not just useful as an engine.
Cut Horned Sliver. This belongs in Legion decks. You want straight up evasion. I cant bring myself to cut this. I think trample may be pretty good if I dont have my bombs
Cut Mnemonic Sliver. Looks good on paper. In Overlord decks it usually means draw one card for five mana. Cut
Cut Cryptic Gateway. It is slow and expensive. You can't cheat in Overlord with it. As Danzborin said, he likes it, and for now where my mana base will be suffering, I think its an okay ploy.
Cut Quick Sliver. Even with it we are slow. You have to play a reactive style for this to be useful. Possibly better in 1v1. I plan playing this 1v1 as well, so I dont mind it there. I could cut it for something better though.
Cut Ward Sliver. Between Crystalline and Opaline your dudes should be safe enough. Ward sliver is in the same spot as shadow and winged. I could cut it for shadow sliver if you think that is a better cut in.
all i got for now.
Using your suggestions I cut it down to 97 cards. I also added in Lurking Predators.
5 more to cut, AND I want to make room for Lurking Predators.
Just put it into the TCG Player Optimizer, removed what I had or could get easily enough, and it came out to 116.43 with the Queen and Legion which i think im getting through other means. With them removed it comes to 81.50 which is $10 under budget. I think I'm going to do this.
Hey, no sweat. It took years for me to get to my current build. It's a path rife with frustrations and fun both. (Gref, who's contributing to the primer, said that slivers are for those with a sadomasochistic streak. He's definitely right. )
The Door has pros and cons when compared with the Coat. It will be most beneficial after a boardwipe -your first sliver played afterwards will get +X/+X- and will not profit from the Queen churning out tokens -tokens being not spells-. That being said... in your current decklist I suppose the Door is better, true. Though there would be no harm in packing both, considering you run no tutors at all. (Thus far.)
I was looking at your deck's mana pie in Tapped Out. Having artifact mana sources can never hurt. I would say the ones you've picked are fine, but if you wanted to add more, then toss in your choice among Izzet, Selesnya and Boros. I've never ran signets, prefering to grab stuff allowing me to add mana of any color. Coalition Relic and Darksteel Ingot aren't expensive cards, but boy if they aren't immensely helpful.
Since you're on budget, it goes without saying that the moment RTR is out you should grab as many shocklands and gates as you can. Especially gates, since you don't mind them coming into play tapped. Also consider grabbing the SoM duals that will rotate out next week; I guess they should cheapen a lot now.
Without anesthesia, this is what I would cut:
- Frenetic Sliver -- luck is a fickle mistress.
- Opaline Sliver -- as a deterrent, it's fine, but it won't stop a player from exiling/killing/bouncing/tucking your sliver.
- Sidewinder Sliver -- flanking is meh in EDH, even if your sliver was blocked by a puny 1/1 that would then become 0/0, it's still blocked.
- Two-Headed Sliver -- you already have enough evasion-giving slivers.
- Abundant Growth -- a nice shenanigan, but won't contribute to your mana pool in the end. Go with another ramp spell instead; I suggest Skyshroud Claim.
- Harsh Mercy -- utterly sucks in multiplayer. Hell, even in single player; your opponent will always pick the creature type most valuable to him and so you'll only get rid of cannon fodder.
- Shadow Sliver -- too deadly a double-edged knife IMO.
- I never run equipment, though I can't bring myself to tell you to cut it. I always go for Crystalline Sliver as soon as I can, which renders all your gear inoperable.
- Vitalize -- if you're looking for a winning condition, go for anything that gives you an extra attack phase. Think World at War.
- Ponder -- on its own it's useless; you need to run more stuff to rearrange your deck, or nothing at all.
- Life // Death -- you need to trim cards from your deck.
- I'd suggest you ran more lands, too: 33 is too few a number, even with artifact mana sources and all.
Hey, with such low costs, don't you think Aluren and Recycle would be dead awesome here? You'd probably have to run Reliquary Tower, too, and keep it in hand until Recycle hits the field.
Now, the final question... I started out the long path to this current build with a list like yours. Having tons of slivers is fun, but inefficient. After tiring of getting curbstomped by the powerhouses in my pod -think Sisay, Sharuum, Mayael and Augustine, to name but a few-, I learned from the other guys here that you need a plan and cut everything that doesn't directly contribute towards that plan. The final product is the decklist on the thread starter. It works, sometimes scarily well, and has achieved a semblance of consistency; it can hold off and win against a table with all of these generals present. But I find myself playing Gaka's Norin deck -sans 3-4 cards that are nigh impossible to find here in Argentina- more often because it's more fun.
Do I mean you should go cutthroat and turn your deck into a prison/stax machine? Definitely not. But slivers *SCARE* other players. That Deadly Threat Threshold I like to name when I discuss slivers on post #2 is no joke. Having more than 3 slivers in play means you pull more aggro than a MMO tank. Hence why I said my next challenge to be building a fun and competitive aggro list, that can play loads and loads of slivers, have a lot of fun at doing so, and remaining stable and solid enough to put up a fight against anything else.
Just in answer to your last paragraph, that is exactly what I want to do: Throw out a lot of slivers and have fun. Maybe even scare some people.
99% of the magic games I play Are casual with 3 or 4 friends at my kitchen table at 3:00 in the morning. (Un)Fortunately, we all go a little crazy sometimes and do things like waking up one morning and deciding I want to build a sliver deck without owning a single sliver to my name. (Actually, I own like 5, but anyways...)
As far as mana goes, Im still debating the tri lands, but I have a few dual mana laying around (The core ones they just reprinted) I can toss in. Also I'll toss in a Coalition Relic. I think I can manage with a non perfect manabase for now.
I actually had Aluren in there before, but decided to forgo it for giving my opponent an advatage as well. But I really dont think they run many small drops to be honest.
Cut a few cards you mentioned to cut. Including lightning greaves.
Also cut Winged sliver - Pulmonic + Shifting should be enough. Also Spinneret for protection.
Vitalize I think can be fun for mana ramp (with gemhide on the field of course) or as a "My opponant has a 20/20 out on the board and I attacked someone with all my cards to kill them this turn". I'll play test it a bit.
Im kind of afraid of board wipes at this point.
Should I cut Unnatural selection? With crystaline sliver out it is kind of useless, no?
- You may want to think of changelings as well. Taurean Mauler, Chameleon Colossus and Mirror Entity are the best of the lot, aside from Amoeboid Changeling. The Mauler can grow quickly into something insanely large, and the Entity can win games for you if you have enough mana.
- Whoooooa... you just made me open my eyes wide with Descendants' Path. I'm SO adding this to the recommended card list. And rest assured I'm going to toy with it when I decide to build my aggro decklist.
- Primal Surge made me smirk. Another thing worth toying with.
- Made the change on the Clot / Crypt
- Took out Spined for Bonesplitter. I like Opaline I think. Worst case is I play test it and change it later.
- Door of Destinies is my coat of arms. Unless you think coat is better?
- I'll look into those. Added Taurean Mauler, not sure about Mirror Entity.
- Descendents' Path is one of the first cards I considered playing in the deck, especially with my creature count this high. Even if you flip over a 2 cmc sliver, you still get a body on the field. Worst case is you flip a needed non creature. Ive done that with other decks before.
- Primal surge is going to be sick in this deck. Ive only got 9 cards in the deck that wouldn't get on the field. I should get atleast 10 permanants every time I play it. I'm not sure if it would work in every sliver deck though.
Any comments about the Mana base? I already have a Cavern of Souls and Command Tower, but im at a loss of where to go with the rest of it. The trilands looked decent for my needs though, since they were cheap. I could also get ahold of city of brass and gemstone mine and the like. Shocklands may be added after RTR.
I guess I have a few questions:
Mana Rocks - Which Signets (if any) Should I use? I own atleast 1 of all of them.
Creatures - Do I have too many? Any I can thin out? I do currently have way too many cards in the deck for it to be considered an EDH deck.
As it stands, after trimming it up a bit, could this deck work? I ask because its a pretty big investent for me to buy all these cards. Id be happy if it wins occaisonaly or I atleast get to do some shenanigans.
You have no idea how thankful I am for you helping me out with this.
I want to start building a sliver EDH deck for casual play. Ive spent the last few days looking over other sliver builds and I'm trying to throw something together. Since it's casual, I wont be buying a ridiculous mana base for it, so keep that in mind.
For the mana base i have the tri lands in there ATM, as they are cheap and not terrible(?) mana fixing. I also have a few signets in there, although Im not sure what I should keep or which ones I should use.
I know the list is currently a few cards too many, I was looking to thin it out a bit and determine where I should go with it. Its very "first drafty".
If this is the wrong area to ask for critque, let me know and I'll start a new thread or something.
Thanks.
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Dartboard?
Also, Magma Sliver has always been more of a win more - or attack deterrent in my deck. I like it though because it makes things HUGE.
Guess who slept on the couch last night?
The All stars of the game had to be Sliver Legion, Ward Sliver, and Virulent Sliver.
Game 1 I managed to get a large enough aggro presence early on and she couldn't keep up. Sliver Legion for the Overkill. (She also said her draws sucked)
Turn 2 had me down to 18 life and 1 or two slivers for 1/2 the game, but then I was able to Slivercycling (via homing sliver) for a Harmonic sliver to take care of her Oblivion Stone, then grab a Gemhide (via Cycling), cast overlord to get Legion and draw into the Virulent Sliver. A ward Sliver also got cast and gaurenteed me the game. This is a very mana intensive deck, I have noticed.
Fun Fun, can't wait to test it out against more people.
Off the top of my head:
Chromatic Lantern
Cyclone Rift (All EDH decks running blue will play this I think)
Dreadbore (maybe)
Jarads Orders (For Reanimate lists?)
Edit: Just ordered all the cards I don't have: $68.68 shipped. Hell yea.
Root Sliver - I should be - Root sliver is there now. What should I dump for it? I missed it somehow =(
I considered Birthing Pod, but cut it because the ladder would be too low too get a lot out of it. I want to keep slivers on the field as well. I have birthing Pod in my Riku EDH and it works wonders. Fauna Shamen and Piper could be add ins if I find a particular sliver not working well.
This is exactly what I'm going for starting off - An aggro deck thats fun to play, and something I can build off of. - My current playgroup ranges from Kaalia, Riku (My only other EDH deck lol), Mimeoplasm, Gisela, Niv, Skullbriarer, things like that.
And your absoultely right about me being a Sliver Fan, when I first saw them I fell in love with how they worked and decided I would have a Slvier deck one day. Now is that day.
Unfortunately, cash is a big factor right now. (The only reason I'm able to do this is because I sold my Kindle Fire, and am probably going to trade some pots and pans for the Queen / Legion.) Maybe down the line I can trade for some better cards, especially the Shock lands, but for now the pricing is right where I want it.
As for helping you put together an Aggro list, I'd have to say most of my input would be nonsensical. Let me get a few games under my belt and then maybe I can speak of the glory of aggro slivers. Until then I'm a newbie. You and everyone else in this thread that has helped me are like giants. Even if I build it and it fails, I can always say I had fun building it.
I'll put Arena on the backburner for now. Reflecting pool is kind of expensive but I'll keep it in mind. i think I'll toss in my Rootbound Crag and Seachrome Coast, just by looking at the mana pie.
With those additions, I think its done? All thats left to do is mass order it off of TCGPlayer and playtest the crap out of it.
Last chance to let me know if I'm making any huge mistakes on the list lol.
Tossed Clot sliver back in for crypt sliver.
And which lands? I just remebered I have: Rootbound Crag, DragonSkull Summit, and Seachrome Coast chilling in my binder. I also have a Vivid Creek, Vivid Crag, and Vivid Grove. Would these be better than the trilands I have in there now? How about City of Brass or Grand Coliseum?
Also, should I toss in a Phyrexian Arena?
Using your suggestions I cut it down to 97 cards. I also added in Lurking Predators.
Thanks a bunch!
Dropped Sidewinder
5 more to cut, AND I want to make room for Lurking Predators.
Just put it into the TCG Player Optimizer, removed what I had or could get easily enough, and it came out to 116.43 with the Queen and Legion which i think im getting through other means. With them removed it comes to 81.50 which is $10 under budget. I think I'm going to do this.
Just in answer to your last paragraph, that is exactly what I want to do: Throw out a lot of slivers and have fun. Maybe even scare some people.
99% of the magic games I play Are casual with 3 or 4 friends at my kitchen table at 3:00 in the morning. (Un)Fortunately, we all go a little crazy sometimes and do things like waking up one morning and deciding I want to build a sliver deck without owning a single sliver to my name. (Actually, I own like 5, but anyways...)
As far as mana goes, Im still debating the tri lands, but I have a few dual mana laying around (The core ones they just reprinted) I can toss in. Also I'll toss in a Coalition Relic. I think I can manage with a non perfect manabase for now.
I actually had Aluren in there before, but decided to forgo it for giving my opponent an advatage as well. But I really dont think they run many small drops to be honest.
Cut a few cards you mentioned to cut. Including lightning greaves.
Also cut Winged sliver - Pulmonic + Shifting should be enough. Also Spinneret for protection.
Vitalize I think can be fun for mana ramp (with gemhide on the field of course) or as a "My opponant has a 20/20 out on the board and I attacked someone with all my cards to kill them this turn". I'll play test it a bit.
Im kind of afraid of board wipes at this point.
Should I cut Unnatural selection? With crystaline sliver out it is kind of useless, no?
I'm still at 6 cards over =(
- Made the change on the Clot / Crypt
- Took out Spined for Bonesplitter. I like Opaline I think. Worst case is I play test it and change it later.
- Door of Destinies is my coat of arms. Unless you think coat is better?
- I'll look into those. Added Taurean Mauler, not sure about Mirror Entity.
- Descendents' Path is one of the first cards I considered playing in the deck, especially with my creature count this high. Even if you flip over a 2 cmc sliver, you still get a body on the field. Worst case is you flip a needed non creature. Ive done that with other decks before.
- Primal surge is going to be sick in this deck. Ive only got 9 cards in the deck that wouldn't get on the field. I should get atleast 10 permanants every time I play it. I'm not sure if it would work in every sliver deck though.
Any comments about the Mana base? I already have a Cavern of Souls and Command Tower, but im at a loss of where to go with the rest of it. The trilands looked decent for my needs though, since they were cheap. I could also get ahold of city of brass and gemstone mine and the like. Shocklands may be added after RTR.
I guess I have a few questions:
Mana Rocks - Which Signets (if any) Should I use? I own atleast 1 of all of them.
Creatures - Do I have too many? Any I can thin out? I do currently have way too many cards in the deck for it to be considered an EDH deck.
As it stands, after trimming it up a bit, could this deck work? I ask because its a pretty big investent for me to buy all these cards. Id be happy if it wins occaisonaly or I atleast get to do some shenanigans.
You have no idea how thankful I am for you helping me out with this.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/slivers-25-09-12-1/
1x Acidic Sliver
1x Amoeboid Changeling
1x Ancient Ziggurat
1x Arcane Sanctum
1x Basal Sliver
1x Brood Sliver
1x Chromatic Lantern
1x Door of Destinies
1x Harsh Mercy
1x Life/Death
1x Mirari's Wake
1x Patriarch's Bidding
1x Sliver Legion
1x Sliver Queen
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Clot Sliver
1x Command Tower
1x Crumbling Necropolis
1x Cryptic Gateway
1x Crystalline Sliver
1x Cultivate
1x Darkheart Sliver
1x Darksteel Ingot
1x Descendants' Path
1x Distant Melody
1x Dormant Sliver
1x Essence Sliver
1x Faces of the Past
1x Firewake Sliver
5x Forest
1x Frenetic Sliver
1x Frenzy Sliver
1x Gemhide Sliver
1x Golgari Signet
1x Gruul Signet
1x Harmonic Sliver
1x Heart Sliver
1x Heartstone
1x Hibernation Sliver
1x Homing Sliver
1x Horned Sliver
1x Hunter Sliver
5x Island
1x Jungle Shrine
1x Kodama's Reach
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Magma Sliver
1x Mana Echoes
1x Mnemonic Sliver
5x Mountain
1x Muscle Sliver
1x Necrotic Sliver
1x Opaline Sliver
5x Plains
1x Plated Sliver
1x Ponder
1x Primal Surge
1x Pulmonic Sliver
1x Quick Sliver
1x Reflex Sliver
1x Savage Lands
1x Seaside Citadel
1x Sedge Sliver
1x Shadow Sliver
1x Shifting Sliver
1x Sidewinder Sliver
1x Simic Signet
1x Sinew Sliver
1x Skullclamp
1x Sol Ring
1x Spined Sliver
1x Spinneret Sliver
5x Swamp
1x Synapse Sliver
1x Synchronous Sliver
1x Talon Sliver
1x Telekinetic Sliver
1x Toxin Sliver
1x Training Grounds
1x Two-Headed Sliver
1x Unnatural Selection
1x Urza's Incubator
1x Victual Sliver
1x Virulent Sliver
1x Vitalize
1x Ward Sliver
1x Winged Sliver
For the mana base i have the tri lands in there ATM, as they are cheap and not terrible(?) mana fixing. I also have a few signets in there, although Im not sure what I should keep or which ones I should use.
I know the list is currently a few cards too many, I was looking to thin it out a bit and determine where I should go with it. Its very "first drafty".
If this is the wrong area to ask for critque, let me know and I'll start a new thread or something.
Thanks.