All right, I'm honestly off, I'm just going to unsubscribe from this thread because it's becoming frustrating for me to read how BAD are Goblin Assassin, Krenko, Scrapper, Stingscourger and many more. I've been winning with these cards for years now, they all proven to be really great, Gaka has been playing a couple of them for years too. Mogg War Marshal is seriously solid in this deck depending on the package you play.
We definitely have completely different ways to play this format and I'm not willing to waste time anymore defending all the games I've been winning with these cards (I don't really see how I would win otherwise, plan A is Norin, but you need a plan B, especially now that they printed cards like Containement Priest).
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
@Al_Z_Heiner: Krenko doesn't need any support, he produces a token every turn for free. Or more and more if your opponents don't deal with it. Goblin Assassin is one of the really rare and tutorable red creature card to deal with Avacyn. I'm all ears if you have better suggestions.
I know we will never really agree anyway, you say Krenko is bad, while I think he's most of the times better than Kiki-Jiki and Welder (both these cards need a specific board situations to work, Krenko does not).
Moggcatcher is a win by itself assuming you are playing the auto-include goblins (even without Chieftain).
@osieorb18: well, Chieftain can be win-more, so can be Gauntlets. +1/+1s are usually good in Norin. Haste is good with Krenko. It all depends on what you play. I don't exactly consider Squee good by himself and I think the 4-CMC bad Mogg War Marshal is everything but good when you have so many better options available, but when you add Chandra, looters or Helm of Possession, suddenly Squee gets better. Gaka plays Conjurer's Closet and I can fairly understand why he plays the 4-CMC Mogg War Marshal only because of that.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Pulling out gobis is a mistake. We do not have better replacements dor their abilities.
If someone is taunting you that you play a gobo deck,who the eff cares? (12 years generally) Play the best cards you can; at the moment the abilities gobos bring to the deck are not replaced by anything better in my opinion.
Couldn't agree more. If you can find a better red creature than Goblin Welder, Krenko and Kiki-Jiki, I'm all ears. In the meantime, those 3 are good enough by themselves in a color with a lack of tutor to make both Moggcatcher and Goblin Matron worth playing, which themselves make toolbox cards like Settler and Scrapper worth playing too. Assassin has a pretty unique effect with Siege-Gang Commander being one of the best token producer in mono-red.
If you are playing all of these, you may as well play Chieftain to make Moggcatcher a win condition by itself, considering it's a good creature for the deck (P/T boost are always good in Norin) and the only better creature than Welder is an haste Welder. And there you go, 10 goblin-oriented cards. Mini-tribe subtheme.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Terrain Generator is better in this deck because of the multiple wheel effects. It enters untapped, taps for mana, and can ramp later on. With Valakut (the only real CIPT land worth playing IMO), you can also get 2 triggers on the same turn (including 1 at instant speed).
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Oh I forgot, what about Commune with Lava Gaka? There were a few heated debates about that card on here but it looks like it didn't make your list. Did you reject it?
The problem with Commune with Lava is that it is at its best when you have more mana than you know what to do with. If you've got six billion mana and this in hand, then hell yeah. Until that point, however, you get to stare at it with distaste. Casting it for one isn't useful. Casting it for two sucked up four mana to exile two cards you may or may not want to play now but might want to later. At the very least the cards stick around until the end of the next turn, so it's not completely useless.
If you're playing a UR storm, this card is probably crazy useful. You can cast this for some amount at the end of turn and go into the combo turn with another X cards to play with. But we're not a combo deck. This effect isn't useful to us.
why would you ever cast this for x=2? You want to cast that thing when it's the last card in your hand, and you should already have at least 7-8 mana by that time (mid-game) or billions (late-game). In both cases, this should give you 2 land drops and at least 1 spell, if not more, to cast. Let's say you have 7 mana and cast this for X=5 in your main phase. If you hit 2 lands, you get to play them and have 3 or less spells to play in your next turn. I highly doubt that you really need the 3 spells, usually the best of the 3 will do.
Then, in a late game situation where you have 12-14 mana available, you cast this for X=7 to 9, so you have 3 mana left plus your land drop of the turn. You can then play immediately a 4-drop (4-drops represent nearly 25% of the deck), pass the turn, and play a couple more spells the turn after. And that's if you don't have a mana doubler by then. You exiled a Wheel of Fortune? You can cast it too and still use the remaining exiled cards afterwards.
It's really good honestly, red can have some lack of gas sometimes lategame and wheel effects also help your opponents (besides a well timed Jar or Wheel+Chandra's -3). Commune with Lava does not.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Flameshadow Conjuring could be potentially good, yet i feel that it has a better home in Kresh or some other "creature matters" deck.
I don't feel that this is really the case; it's another one of those cards that when the dust settles, gives us a lot more output of useful triggers to work with.
Well the rule has always been when they cost that much they should be winning by themselves. That clearly does not meet that requirement. At minimum it requires something with etb triggers in play so you can duplicate Norin. And extra red mana every time you want to use it. And probably playing other creatures as well to duplicate them too.
All in all feels very win more to me. But gaka seems to like it so I'm sure he'll test the hell out of it and give us a full report.
Gaka still plays Conjurer's Closet according to the front page. This is a win-more card.
Each players have their own preferences when playing a deck. I can play Jareth in my mono-white only because it's the first rare I opened in a pack, even if it's not really good. It all comes down to personal choices and this is what defines the format. This is why EDH is so cool. If you like abusing Myr Battlesphere, then you will like the interaction with Closet and Flameshadow, especially with Ogre Battledriver and Kiki-Jiki.
Pia and Kiran is the only interesting card in this set in my opinion. It's a really good card, it's just a matter of theme/flavour at that point, because it's definitely superior to the 4-CMC goblin alternative, and it can give serious competition to Mogg War Marshal, Goblin Marshal and Siege-Gang Commander too. I'm really starting to consider it, flying creatures are just good in this format, and I probably don't need to have that many tutorable goblins doing nearly all the same thing. It also generates artifacts, which is also a good thing in this deck. Tutorable with Imperial Recruiter and Gamble, and the activated ability is just a really good and relevant bonus too. This could make Ugin's Nexus more playable you know, having Welder and Daretti already.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
36 damage for 2 mana (12+12 for the ETB, then a 12/12 haste token after you sac the original Dreadnough to the token)
Looks fun, but as I said earlier... you need to have another enabler (Pandemonium), thus making this card a win-more. As for haste options, there are better cards like Anger or Flamekin Village.
I don't think I can agree with all that. Yes, the conjuring-pandemonium-dreadnought thing looks cute, but it'll never work for me - I play neither pandemonium (backfires too much imo) nor dreadnaught. But this is not very relevant I guess since the chances of that happening are quite small anyway.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
36 damage for 2 mana (12+12 for the ETB, then a 12/12 haste token after you sac the original Dreadnough to the token)
Looks fun, but as I said earlier... you need to have another enabler (Pandemonium), thus making this card a win-more. As for haste options, there are better cards like Anger or Flamekin Village.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
It needs another enabler to do anything with Norin. It kind of multiplicate the effect by 2. But if we could have an exact functional reprint of Norin, would we play it in the 99? Maybe.
Is this better? Not exactly. But it works with anything. It's a pseudo-haste enabler for Moggcatcher or Myr Battlesphere. This is definitely great, I just need to sleep on it and see if it's a win-more or not, since it does nothing by itself while other enchantments like Purphoros or Confusion win the game by themselves with Norin.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I agree I like this guy better than beetleback chief but im still not sure that's who I want to cut. Creatures making creatures is one of the few things we run multiple versions of in our toolbox because it's so good
How has Commune with lava been treating you guys since you added it, has it consistently held its weight? I haven't gotten to play this deck as much as I used to since my friend made a fun police rune-tail, kitsune ascendant deck chock full of stuff like torpor orb and containment priest. But the couple times it did it sort of seemed like a worse memory jar that i couldnt abuse as easily since it wasnt an artifact. Im just not sure it adds enough.
Anyone else have any thoughts on it now that its been playtested more?
It's been awesome for me, I usually do it for all my mana minus 3 during my main phase, so I get to play a land and at least one spell the turn I play it, and usually another land and 2-3 other spells the turn after depending on what I draw. I always do it for at least X=5, so it's more like a late-game winner. I agree that Memory Jar is really powerful but your opponent can play around it too, so that they can get card advantage out of it as much as you do. And you can't use it spread on 2 whole turns like Commune with Lava. It's a completely different card IMO, but assuming I don't have Welder around, I like Lava as much as Jar.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
If you ever tutor that with Imperial Recruiter over something like say Moggcatcher... wow!
That's my only concern with that card, I do tutor Goblin Marshal with Moggcatcher, but this I can't, and I definitely won't tutor it with Recruiter or even worse, Gamble.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Siege-Gang Commander is superior by a huge margin IMO. Maybe instead of Goblin Marshal, but it's not a goblin. Flying is nice, artifacts is nice, paying 3 to sac any artifact is okay (Siege-Gang being cheaper overall and 1 more token but hey, we can't have everything).
tl;dr: interesting, but certainly not an auto-include.
edit: pretty interesting depending on your list.. I will have to see the rest of the set, but yeah, good with Welder, block flyers and sac outlet for any artifact... also, flavor, they are Chandra's parents!
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
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So Krenko is bad.
All right, I'm honestly off, I'm just going to unsubscribe from this thread because it's becoming frustrating for me to read how BAD are Goblin Assassin, Krenko, Scrapper, Stingscourger and many more. I've been winning with these cards for years now, they all proven to be really great, Gaka has been playing a couple of them for years too. Mogg War Marshal is seriously solid in this deck depending on the package you play.
We definitely have completely different ways to play this format and I'm not willing to waste time anymore defending all the games I've been winning with these cards (I don't really see how I would win otherwise, plan A is Norin, but you need a plan B, especially now that they printed cards like Containement Priest).
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks:
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I know we will never really agree anyway, you say Krenko is bad, while I think he's most of the times better than Kiki-Jiki and Welder (both these cards need a specific board situations to work, Krenko does not).
Moggcatcher is a win by itself assuming you are playing the auto-include goblins (even without Chieftain).
@osieorb18: well, Chieftain can be win-more, so can be Gauntlets. +1/+1s are usually good in Norin. Haste is good with Krenko. It all depends on what you play. I don't exactly consider Squee good by himself and I think the 4-CMC bad Mogg War Marshal is everything but good when you have so many better options available, but when you add Chandra, looters or Helm of Possession, suddenly Squee gets better. Gaka plays Conjurer's Closet and I can fairly understand why he plays the 4-CMC Mogg War Marshal only because of that.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks:
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Couldn't agree more. If you can find a better red creature than Goblin Welder, Krenko and Kiki-Jiki, I'm all ears. In the meantime, those 3 are good enough by themselves in a color with a lack of tutor to make both Moggcatcher and Goblin Matron worth playing, which themselves make toolbox cards like Settler and Scrapper worth playing too. Assassin has a pretty unique effect with Siege-Gang Commander being one of the best token producer in mono-red.
If you are playing all of these, you may as well play Chieftain to make Moggcatcher a win condition by itself, considering it's a good creature for the deck (P/T boost are always good in Norin) and the only better creature than Welder is an haste Welder. And there you go, 10 goblin-oriented cards. Mini-tribe subtheme.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks:
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks:
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Then, in a late game situation where you have 12-14 mana available, you cast this for X=7 to 9, so you have 3 mana left plus your land drop of the turn. You can then play immediately a 4-drop (4-drops represent nearly 25% of the deck), pass the turn, and play a couple more spells the turn after. And that's if you don't have a mana doubler by then. You exiled a Wheel of Fortune? You can cast it too and still use the remaining exiled cards afterwards.
It's really good honestly, red can have some lack of gas sometimes lategame and wheel effects also help your opponents (besides a well timed Jar or Wheel+Chandra's -3). Commune with Lava does not.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks:
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Something like Siege-Gang Commander or Pia and Kiran Nalaar? Honestly, both Impact Tremors and Outpost Siege deserve to be in every Norin list. I was skeptical at first, but they're good. Even more if you think that the creature density is high enough to play Conjurer's Closet (which works nicely with Outpost Siege again).
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks:
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Each players have their own preferences when playing a deck. I can play Jareth in my mono-white only because it's the first rare I opened in a pack, even if it's not really good. It all comes down to personal choices and this is what defines the format. This is why EDH is so cool. If you like abusing Myr Battlesphere, then you will like the interaction with Closet and Flameshadow, especially with Ogre Battledriver and Kiki-Jiki.
Pia and Kiran is the only interesting card in this set in my opinion. It's a really good card, it's just a matter of theme/flavour at that point, because it's definitely superior to the 4-CMC goblin alternative, and it can give serious competition to Mogg War Marshal, Goblin Marshal and Siege-Gang Commander too. I'm really starting to consider it, flying creatures are just good in this format, and I probably don't need to have that many tutorable goblins doing nearly all the same thing. It also generates artifacts, which is also a good thing in this deck. Tutorable with Imperial Recruiter and Gamble, and the activated ability is just a really good and relevant bonus too. This could make Ugin's Nexus more playable you know, having Welder and Daretti already.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks:
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Since you are talking about my own specific list, I replied on my own thread dedicated to the said list.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks:
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Any Pandemonium effect
Phyrexian Dreadnought
36 damage for 2 mana (12+12 for the ETB, then a 12/12 haste token after you sac the original Dreadnough to the token)
Looks fun, but as I said earlier... you need to have another enabler (Pandemonium), thus making this card a win-more. As for haste options, there are better cards like Anger or Flamekin Village.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks:
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks:
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I'm not convinced either.
It looks like a win-more effect. But we definitely need to discuss it and consider it so... yeah.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks:
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Is this better? Not exactly. But it works with anything. It's a pseudo-haste enabler for Moggcatcher or Myr Battlesphere. This is definitely great, I just need to sleep on it and see if it's a win-more or not, since it does nothing by itself while other enchantments like Purphoros or Confusion win the game by themselves with Norin.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks:
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
It's been awesome for me, I usually do it for all my mana minus 3 during my main phase, so I get to play a land and at least one spell the turn I play it, and usually another land and 2-3 other spells the turn after depending on what I draw. I always do it for at least X=5, so it's more like a late-game winner. I agree that Memory Jar is really powerful but your opponent can play around it too, so that they can get card advantage out of it as much as you do. And you can't use it spread on 2 whole turns like Commune with Lava. It's a completely different card IMO, but assuming I don't have Welder around, I like Lava as much as Jar.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks:
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
That's my only concern with that card, I do tutor Goblin Marshal with Moggcatcher, but this I can't, and I definitely won't tutor it with Recruiter or even worse, Gamble.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks:
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I never played Beetleback Chief since it's so much worse than Goblin Marshal and I always cheat the creature in this spot with Moggcatcher after Siege-Gang Commander anyway (and Krenko and Kiki-Jiki and Chieftain, obviously).
tl;dr: interesting, but certainly not an auto-include.
edit: pretty interesting depending on your list.. I will have to see the rest of the set, but yeah, good with Welder, block flyers and sac outlet for any artifact... also, flavor, they are Chandra's parents!
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks:
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.