Hey Gaka any changes to your main decklist in the last few months or no?
None. A brief experiment with a couple less Goblins, but nothing came of it. (for now)
There hasn't been anything interesting in the latest sets, so not much has needed to change.
You nixed Impact Tremors and Pia and Kiran Nalaar? I thought impact tremors held its own pretty well when I played it and I like Pia and Kiran too.
Also even if it is sad this guy isn't tutorable, Magus of the Wheel is still a wheel on a stick. I feel like its worth at least trying out. Trading Post has been borderline cuttable for some time I believe and it is also untutorable, we could try magus there (or did we already cut that?). Also Chandra Ablaze is good but the high cost and the fact that she isn't a permanent type we can abuse at all has always bothered me, maybe magus can take her place. Similar use case after all.
Ah, Pia has been added to the main deck, and I'm still working with Impact Tremors to get the most... impact. Playing it will move a bit of the identity of the deck away from screwing with people are more towards "look at all these tokens that are killing you!" and I want to be careful about how I proceed there. Generic fun isn't fun.
For Magus, I can totally see running it in place of Chandra. As of now, Chandra fulfils two main roles - removal and card draw. She's wonderful with Squee and Feldon, and provides "free" advantages if she sticks, which is admittedly a rough beat. I will try this swap.
Gaka, I have been running Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx with pretty high success, and I was curious to know your thoughts on it.
Nykthos isn't great for two reason. Firstly, it produces colorless mana unless you have devotion 3. Secondly, devotion does not work with tokens. This means, unless you've managed to make it to a state where you have such a board state, it's actually worse for you than a basic mountain. We run a really low land count, so you could argue that each land needs to be highly functionable. I'm of the opinion that it means your lands need to be consistent. You need colors more than you need colorless, and other people DO tend to run wasteland. It's certainly fine to play it if you feel you can gain from it, but I don't like it.
I love the idea of this deck, but should I even bother if I don't have a recruiter?
Recruiter is the most powerful card in the deck, but the deck functions absolutely fine without it. You can trade it out for draw, removal, or whatever you want. You'll have a few slight options taken from you, but it's not too terrible. If you can afford to buy one, you should do so - but it's not necessary.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
This deck might be my winningest deck yet. Altar of the Brood has been outstanding.
The trigger headaches are there, and I am considering pulling Confusion in the Ranks to cut down a bit on them.
Cheers!
This post is a troll.
Definately. You must be really drunk to consider pulling Confusion in the Ranks. I must confess I once milled my opponents to under ten cards, when I copied Genesis Chamber with a Sculpting Steel, while Altar of the Brood was already in play. Cloudstone Curio and a Goblin War Marshal made sure I had at least 8 ETB triggers each turn, not even counting landdrops nor the 3 triggers my oppenents gave me for each card they played.
In the meantime I pulled the alter though. It's too underwhelming most of the time, and filling graveyards without being able to exile them is quite risky too.
Don't forget - I pulled Confusion at one point (for the sake of online play, but it still counts) and since then, hell nah. It's too good.
Altar of the Brood you should definitely cut. It literally doesn't do anything - consider that you're only taking ~1% of a deck per activation. It's going to take a long time to get anywhere with it unless you get a hilarious Warp World activation or something. I might consider playing it for that alone, but this isn't a Warp World centric deck. Sort of. Kind of.
Suppose I'll look at the cards spoiled so far: Awaken the Sky Tyrant - Just no. Dream Pillager - Dream Crusher. No! Fiery Confluence - Almost good. It's too expensive for such simplistic effects - you're simply paying for the option of which to use. Yes, you can do it three times, but it doesn't fit in with the goals of Norin. It's still playable for most monored decks, though. Magus of the Wheel - N..ooh. Wait, what? A creature wheel? Now I absolutely know that Wizards is screwing with me, for not making it 2 power or a goblin, but at least they got the 3cc correct. I have the feeling that this will be a thing. Of course, testing will need to be done, as always! Meteor Volley - Say it together, class! No! Mizzix's Mastery - Say this sucker five times fast. Interesting, but not for us. Might be useable in a storm deck, but even then.... It's as strange as its name!
Oh yeah, colorless. Duh!
Blade of Selves - Wait what? This card is really damn funny, but it's not for Norin. Yes, you can attack with Norin and do silly token things. Yes, you can attack with Siege-Gang and make someone very sad. But it's an equipment with no instant value, and it's got these small words that you gotta squint to see and that just ain't me. It's 6 mana for tricks. It's not worth it. Sandstone Oracle - This is interesting except for the seven mana part. You know, the part that involves actually playing it! Don't do it! Scytheclaw - Not for us. Interesting effect, but not for us. Seal of the Guildpact - This would go so well with our massive spell count! Play it in every deck! If you look closely, you can see the biting sarcasm of a man without any ice cream. Why is the ice cream gone, dog? Why did you trip me and make me spill it? Why do you want to play this card?
Oh I forgot, what about Commune with Lava Gaka? There were a few heated debates about that card on here but it looks like it didn't make your list. Did you reject it?
The problem with Commune with Lava is that it is at its best when you have more mana than you know what to do with. If you've got six billion mana and this in hand, then hell yeah. Until that point, however, you get to stare at it with distaste. Casting it for one isn't useful. Casting it for two sucked up four mana to exile two cards you may or may not want to play now but might want to later. At the very least the cards stick around until the end of the next turn, so it's not completely useless.
If you're playing a UR storm, this card is probably crazy useful. You can cast this for some amount at the end of turn and go into the combo turn with another X cards to play with. But we're not a combo deck. This effect isn't useful to us.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
Absolutely not. None of the effects for using Dash are effective enough or cheap enough to work in a multiplayer deck. The biggest issue with dashing is that it's a persistent cost. In the case of Vaultbreaker, it's three mana per turn to loot unless you want to just cast it. In that case, why not just tap Rummaging Goblin?
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
Gaka you didn't mention Outpost Siege or impact tremors and i don't see them in your list, did you overlook these or did you not find them to be worthwhile perhaps?
The style I'm currently playing doesn't like outpost siege. It's too slow as a draw engine and not powerful enough as a damage source.
Impact Tremors, I was not aware of... It fits in real nice with the "low cost" goings. I could see playing it, as two mana for global threat is pretty nice. I think that right now it's not the card I want, but I am always prepared to be wrong.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
I long said that Racketeer was only a placeholder until something better came along, and it sure did. The second cut, Trading Post, is one that will remain on the "still good" list forever, and might pop back in at some point. In fact, the way that I'm envisioning the next few sets, it might be sooner rather than later.
Coming in is Feldon and Daretti from the commander set. Both of these guys give us some insane utility for effective costs. In a chaotic game, just one well-timed revive could be what you need to win. Both of these are making Myr Battlesphere look holy moly attractive. I anticipate this to come at some point in the future, if there is a good enough reason to drop some of the goblin package.
No Flameshadow Conjuring! Tokens are too important and you don't get as much use out of this as you would hope.
This change is partially obvious, and partially strange. A lot of people are in love with Mind's Eye. Yes, you can do crazy things with Honor-Worn Shaku, but the way things are going, it's harder to justify a 5 mana artifact that doesn't actually impact the board itself. There are arguments to be made about Conjuror's Closet, yes, but for now, it's good to go in my book. That may change by the next set or two, or if someone can really persuade me. It's also harder to justify holding mana up to draw when we have so many more effects to play. I'm losing less interest in mind's eye by the second.
So let's discuss Pie and Cake. S/He is basically a beetleback chief with benefits. Those benefits include flying artifact tokens and the ability to use those tokens and other artifacts as lethal weapons. Really, it's a sexy card. At four mana, you're getting a ton of value for it. At 2 power, it's tutorable. There was no way this wasn't going into the deck.
So, the future. Where is this deck going?
With the printing and inclusion of cards like feldon and daretti, it's getting harder to get by with "just" tokens. Many of the effects that we used to swear by are starting to lose value in comparison to dropping something like a Myr Battlesphere. I mean, there are now two more ways to revive it, and there is so much synergy in the deck. It's looking really, really tasty... but for now I'm not going to go there.
What needs to happen is a discussion - are goblins the way to go, or are specifically useful goblins the key? Is casting Goblin Recruiter better than casting something with a useful effect now?
Obviously Wizards needs to print some useful things in order to make this reality, but we've been well on the way for two years. This being said, I still want to see about dropping the curve even lower. I want to be able to make full use out of stuff like Cloudstone Curio, and less of things like Tuktuk Scrapper or Aftershock. (two or three cc goblin artifact etb killer please)
Right now the four and five mana points are the points where Norin's cards start to do scary things alone - but we've still got a lot of one and two mana tricks that outshine them. It's these tricks that I want to focus on, rather than dropping standard 4-drop useful card... but I also want to have room for a bomb that changes the outcome. Wizards, get to printing interesting cards for me. Seriously.
In any case - that's where we stand as of now!
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
Any thoughts on Sword of the Animist? The trigger is on attack, so you still get the land if you equip to Norin and swing.
This is the wrong kind of ramp for Norin. You do get the trigger when attacking with Norin, but you need to spend mana to do so. Early on, that mana is better spent advancing the board. Later on, you don't need the mana.
This would be ok in something like Godo, but for Norin i think it's too cute of an interaction for this specific build. Other than the ramp, SoA doesn't really do anything useful. The +1/+1 isn't gamebreaking and it simply costs too much to get going. Four mana for the first land? Kinda steep.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
The problem with Foundry is that you're paying 5 mana plus the actual land (so effectively six) for only a pair of fliers. And you can only realistically do this once. Let's also point out that this land produces colorless instead of red. It's just not worth it.
Flameshadow Conjuring could be potentially good, yet i feel that it has a better home in Kresh or some other "creature matters" deck.
I don't feel that this is really the case; it's another one of those cards that when the dust settles, gives us a lot more output of useful triggers to work with.
Well the rule has always been when they cost that much they should be winning by themselves. That clearly does not meet that requirement. At minimum it requires something with etb triggers in play so you can duplicate Norin. And extra red mana every time you want to use it. And probably playing other creatures as well to duplicate them too.
All in all feels very win more to me. But gaka seems to like it so I'm sure he'll test the hell out of it and give us a full report.
Gaka still plays Conjurer's Closet according to the front page. This is a win-more card.
Each players have their own preferences when playing a deck. I can play Jareth in my mono-white only because it's the first rare I opened in a pack, even if it's not really good. It all comes down to personal choices and this is what defines the format. This is why EDH is so cool. If you like abusing Myr Battlesphere, then you will like the interaction with Closet and Flameshadow, especially with Ogre Battledriver and Kiki-Jiki.
Pia and Kiran is the only interesting card in this set in my opinion. It's a really good card, it's just a matter of theme/flavour at that point, because it's definitely superior to the 4-CMC goblin alternative, and it can give serious competition to Mogg War Marshal, Goblin Marshal and Siege-Gang Commander too. I'm really starting to consider it, flying creatures are just good in this format, and I probably don't need to have that many tutorable goblins doing nearly all the same thing. It also generates artifacts, which is also a good thing in this deck. Tutorable with Imperial Recruiter and Gamble, and the activated ability is just a really good and relevant bonus too. This could make Ugin's Nexus more playable you know, having Welder and Daretti already.
I play Conjurer's Closet because it's awesome. Something something value, something something artifact.
Pie and Cake are really the most interesting card in terms of what we value the most. It's a token generator that does something else. Those tokens fly, which as mentioned are absolutely huge, and those tokens can be sacrificed for The Greater Good (the greater good) in a fiery ball of fire. I really do have a certain eloquence about me.
So far as the "win by itself" rule - Pie and Cake definitely count. Dropping it gives you instant access to on-demand removal that synergizes with Confusion in the Ranks and Genesis Chamber. Basically it's a human Siege-Gang. The more I talk about it the more I want it now, and the hungrier I get...
My biggest question for it is how the deck will progress from here. We're slowly, slowly approaching to an artifact renewal theme, and I wonder if this style is superior to Krenko's goblin spam backup-main-plan.
In terms of Flameshadow's usefulness - Once again we're confronted with the question of "does it win by itself" ... the answer is certainly no, but the answer in magical christmas land is yes. What it does is add double the value to all of your threats, of which we run many. Arguably the constant cost is a huge downside, but I really like the potential gains. See Closet.
I'm not going to outright dismiss it until I try it, but damn if I don't like what it can do.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
Yup! I'm back! Lots of traveling has gotten in the way of doing much else, but that's okay.
I think I left for Belize and then a few road trips through the continental US without updating the front list to include both Daretti and Feldon, so tonight I'll make those changes.. barring any sudden phone calls involving expensive alcohols....
It was nice to play magic with some folks in Tampa Bay, Houston, Atlanta, and Phoenix. Y'all know who you are. But you're no longer important! Ha!
It's also nice to see a lot of really cool things from Origins that could possibly make the list, if not change how it functions.
We're missing a lot of commons and uncommons, but I don't think that that will be an issue for discussing what is out in this set. Here's to hoping one and two drop token producers.
Let's just go down the list of what's out now:
Abbot of Keral Keep - Cheap, efficient, not for us. This is pretty handy for any R/x aggro decks though.
Avaricious Dragon - Draw, that's good. Discard, that's bad. Not tutor-able by any current means, and doesn't do anything useful.
Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh//Chandra, Roaring Flame - Just like abbot, this is pretty cool for an R/x deck. Actually, it would be really cool to have her at the helm of a list. I'm pretty sure that I can find a way to make that stuff infinite in mono red.... but it's not for us.
Embermaw Hellion - Expensive, and most of our "damage sources" end up being colorless or lethal without help. Nope.
Enthralling Victor - I kinda like this guy as a metaspecific pick. Maybe someone likes spamming Fauna Shaman. Maybe Birds of Paradise really wants to generate red mana before sacrificing itself to the torturous god of Skullclamp. It's pretty cool, but it's also expensive. If you want to play it, make sure you know why you're playing it. I won't be.
Exquisite Firecraft - I just want to point out how cool this card's name is. Exquisite Firecraft. Four-of.
Flameshadow Conjuring - Ello, poppit. "Whenever a nontoken creature enters the battlefield under your control, pay r. If you do, put a token onto the battlefield that's a copy of that creature. That token gains haste. Exile it at the beginning of the next end step."
That's pretty damn sexy. If I'm remembering the new(forever!) legend rule, this means if you feel like it you can pay for Norin and sacrifice the copy instantly, giving you triggers for Pandemonium and Warstorm Surge. Doesn't proc Genesis Chamber again, but oh well. It's four mana, which is okay, but it's triple colorless, which is good. I will definitely be experimenting with this sucker.
Ghirapur Gearcrafter - The key part here is that these tokens fly. It's only one, so for three mana this dude isn't worth it, but damn if the prospect of flying tokens doesn't make me happy.
Magmatic Insight - Red Draw. Nothing to see here for us, lands are more valuable than Squee.
Pia and Kiran Nalaar - It's pie and cake! At first I was really not into this card, but then I read it a few more times. Damn! It's a Beetleback Chief that turns myr into firebombs. Is this the beginning of moving away from the Goblin subtheme? It's going to get really hard to justify many of the goblins if stuff like this comes out.
Pyromancer's Goggles - It needs to be mentioned. Just don't do it. Don't look at this, don't think about this. It's only good in very specific decks and that deck isn't helmed by Norin.
Good to be home ...for now!
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
Actually, I've been thinking of dropping Conjurer's Closet. Hell, I might cut Mind's Eye anyways. Closet has that thing that I have always stated that I do not like - it's incredibly useless without a board in the first place. Cheap, useful things are always better than expensive, useless things. True facts.
6cc Chandra isn't on the board, or anywhere near to it. The + ability is so underrated. It's not often that you get four damage in red. Four damage is a ton! Kill that Bob, kill that Stoneforge, kill that Zur, kill that 0/1 kobold...
On that note, Flametongue Kavu has sometimes entered my list for pretty much this reason. I love blowing things up - spot removal is the most underutilized aspect of EDH. Most players seem to denounce it in favor of costly wipes that might not be quick enough to effectively change the flow of the game.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
Humble Defector is interesting, but I don't think it's good enough. At first glance, it's really nifty - draw two, 2/1 works well with both recruiter and clamp, and it's only two mana. However, giving someone else a zero-drawback draw two isn't exactly what I call value.
It's not like our draw situation is so horrible that giving someone else free cards will help us. Yes, there are some neat tricks you can do with Homeward Path, but I don't think this interaction alone is worth it.
It's close, but I don't think it's quite what we're looking for.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
What about Mind's Eye? We were debating removing it a few pages ago but it doesn't seem like we ever did. Although I think the main use of the new card is the Dragons aspect it could provide a form of card advantage in a pinch.
Also I think the decklist at the front needs an update, didn't we replace Viashino Racketeer with Daretti, Scrap Savant? And I believe Myr Battlesphere was subbed in for something unless that was rejected after playtesting.
Yes! I haven't updated the front post with the last round of updates - but I'll be doing so by the weekend, when sobriety kicks in from combination New Years and age up. After I mentioned the updates I was considering there were many papers to write and things to do and I haven't had a chance to do maintenance.
I think they've been mostly discussed prior, so I won't go into any details unless you've got questions.
Mind's Eye is, however, still on the table for cutting. Outpost Siege looks really damn good, and has the option of being either a draw engine or another Norin Engine. Possible switch here? Being able to reset it with Cloudstone Curio is just some pretty sexy icing on the cake.
Flamerush Rider is pretty cool, except for the fact that not much in this deck is attacking unless it's for value or to kill the target. However, the Dash mechanic makes me giggle - not for what we've seen now, but for future spoilers. I can't wait to see what pops up.
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon - It's a good thing that myr tokens are colorless! I expect to see a ton of this guy, but I won't be looking to add him to Norin. The synergy with the rest of the deck just isn't there, and his mana cost is fairly prohibitive. I'd rather not spend 8 mana on something that requires protecting as such. It's putting an entire turn's worth of eggs in a basket you don't care about. Not happening.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
Ah, Pia has been added to the main deck, and I'm still working with Impact Tremors to get the most... impact. Playing it will move a bit of the identity of the deck away from screwing with people are more towards "look at all these tokens that are killing you!" and I want to be careful about how I proceed there. Generic fun isn't fun.
For Magus, I can totally see running it in place of Chandra. As of now, Chandra fulfils two main roles - removal and card draw. She's wonderful with Squee and Feldon, and provides "free" advantages if she sticks, which is admittedly a rough beat. I will try this swap.
Nykthos isn't great for two reason. Firstly, it produces colorless mana unless you have devotion 3. Secondly, devotion does not work with tokens. This means, unless you've managed to make it to a state where you have such a board state, it's actually worse for you than a basic mountain. We run a really low land count, so you could argue that each land needs to be highly functionable. I'm of the opinion that it means your lands need to be consistent. You need colors more than you need colorless, and other people DO tend to run wasteland. It's certainly fine to play it if you feel you can gain from it, but I don't like it.
Recruiter is the most powerful card in the deck, but the deck functions absolutely fine without it. You can trade it out for draw, removal, or whatever you want. You'll have a few slight options taken from you, but it's not too terrible. If you can afford to buy one, you should do so - but it's not necessary.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
None. A brief experiment with a couple less Goblins, but nothing came of it. (for now)
There hasn't been anything interesting in the latest sets, so not much has needed to change.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Don't forget - I pulled Confusion at one point (for the sake of online play, but it still counts) and since then, hell nah. It's too good.
Altar of the Brood you should definitely cut. It literally doesn't do anything - consider that you're only taking ~1% of a deck per activation. It's going to take a long time to get anywhere with it unless you get a hilarious Warp World activation or something. I might consider playing it for that alone, but this isn't a Warp World centric deck. Sort of. Kind of.
Suppose I'll look at the cards spoiled so far:
Awaken the Sky Tyrant - Just no.
Dream Pillager - Dream Crusher. No!
Fiery Confluence - Almost good. It's too expensive for such simplistic effects - you're simply paying for the option of which to use. Yes, you can do it three times, but it doesn't fit in with the goals of Norin. It's still playable for most monored decks, though.
Magus of the Wheel - N..ooh. Wait, what? A creature wheel? Now I absolutely know that Wizards is screwing with me, for not making it 2 power or a goblin, but at least they got the 3cc correct. I have the feeling that this will be a thing. Of course, testing will need to be done, as always!
Meteor Volley - Say it together, class! No!
Mizzix's Mastery - Say this sucker five times fast. Interesting, but not for us. Might be useable in a storm deck, but even then.... It's as strange as its name!
Oh yeah, colorless. Duh!
Blade of Selves - Wait what? This card is really damn funny, but it's not for Norin. Yes, you can attack with Norin and do silly token things. Yes, you can attack with Siege-Gang and make someone very sad. But it's an equipment with no instant value, and it's got these small words that you gotta squint to see and that just ain't me. It's 6 mana for tricks. It's not worth it.
Sandstone Oracle - This is interesting except for the seven mana part. You know, the part that involves actually playing it! Don't do it!
Scytheclaw - Not for us. Interesting effect, but not for us.
Seal of the Guildpact - This would go so well with our massive spell count! Play it in every deck! If you look closely, you can see the biting sarcasm of a man without any ice cream. Why is the ice cream gone, dog? Why did you trip me and make me spill it? Why do you want to play this card?
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
The problem with Commune with Lava is that it is at its best when you have more mana than you know what to do with. If you've got six billion mana and this in hand, then hell yeah. Until that point, however, you get to stare at it with distaste. Casting it for one isn't useful. Casting it for two sucked up four mana to exile two cards you may or may not want to play now but might want to later. At the very least the cards stick around until the end of the next turn, so it's not completely useless.
If you're playing a UR storm, this card is probably crazy useful. You can cast this for some amount at the end of turn and go into the combo turn with another X cards to play with. But we're not a combo deck. This effect isn't useful to us.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Absolutely not. None of the effects for using Dash are effective enough or cheap enough to work in a multiplayer deck. The biggest issue with dashing is that it's a persistent cost. In the case of Vaultbreaker, it's three mana per turn to loot unless you want to just cast it. In that case, why not just tap Rummaging Goblin?
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
The style I'm currently playing doesn't like outpost siege. It's too slow as a draw engine and not powerful enough as a damage source.
Impact Tremors, I was not aware of... It fits in real nice with the "low cost" goings. I could see playing it, as two mana for global threat is pretty nice. I think that right now it's not the card I want, but I am always prepared to be wrong.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Two of the changes are actually old ones - but I left for parts unknown before I got the chance to update the front. Those are:
+ Feldon of the Third Path
+ Daretti, Scrap Savant
- Trading Post
- Viashino Racketeer
I long said that Racketeer was only a placeholder until something better came along, and it sure did. The second cut, Trading Post, is one that will remain on the "still good" list forever, and might pop back in at some point. In fact, the way that I'm envisioning the next few sets, it might be sooner rather than later.
Coming in is Feldon and Daretti from the commander set. Both of these guys give us some insane utility for effective costs. In a chaotic game, just one well-timed revive could be what you need to win. Both of these are making Myr Battlesphere look holy moly attractive. I anticipate this to come at some point in the future, if there is a good enough reason to drop some of the goblin package.
But that's only two changes! What's the third?
+ Pia and Kiran Nalaar
- Mind's Eye
No Flameshadow Conjuring! Tokens are too important and you don't get as much use out of this as you would hope.
This change is partially obvious, and partially strange. A lot of people are in love with Mind's Eye. Yes, you can do crazy things with Honor-Worn Shaku, but the way things are going, it's harder to justify a 5 mana artifact that doesn't actually impact the board itself. There are arguments to be made about Conjuror's Closet, yes, but for now, it's good to go in my book. That may change by the next set or two, or if someone can really persuade me. It's also harder to justify holding mana up to draw when we have so many more effects to play. I'm losing less interest in mind's eye by the second.
So let's discuss Pie and Cake. S/He is basically a beetleback chief with benefits. Those benefits include flying artifact tokens and the ability to use those tokens and other artifacts as lethal weapons. Really, it's a sexy card. At four mana, you're getting a ton of value for it. At 2 power, it's tutorable. There was no way this wasn't going into the deck.
So, the future. Where is this deck going?
With the printing and inclusion of cards like feldon and daretti, it's getting harder to get by with "just" tokens. Many of the effects that we used to swear by are starting to lose value in comparison to dropping something like a Myr Battlesphere. I mean, there are now two more ways to revive it, and there is so much synergy in the deck. It's looking really, really tasty... but for now I'm not going to go there.
What needs to happen is a discussion - are goblins the way to go, or are specifically useful goblins the key? Is casting Goblin Recruiter better than casting something with a useful effect now?
Obviously Wizards needs to print some useful things in order to make this reality, but we've been well on the way for two years. This being said, I still want to see about dropping the curve even lower. I want to be able to make full use out of stuff like Cloudstone Curio, and less of things like Tuktuk Scrapper or Aftershock. (two or three cc goblin artifact etb killer please)
Right now the four and five mana points are the points where Norin's cards start to do scary things alone - but we've still got a lot of one and two mana tricks that outshine them. It's these tricks that I want to focus on, rather than dropping standard 4-drop useful card... but I also want to have room for a bomb that changes the outcome. Wizards, get to printing interesting cards for me. Seriously.
In any case - that's where we stand as of now!
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Yup, He's in there. Daretti is sweet.
This is the wrong kind of ramp for Norin. You do get the trigger when attacking with Norin, but you need to spend mana to do so. Early on, that mana is better spent advancing the board. Later on, you don't need the mana.
This would be ok in something like Godo, but for Norin i think it's too cute of an interaction for this specific build. Other than the ramp, SoA doesn't really do anything useful. The +1/+1 isn't gamebreaking and it simply costs too much to get going. Four mana for the first land? Kinda steep.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
The problem with Foundry is that you're paying 5 mana plus the actual land (so effectively six) for only a pair of fliers. And you can only realistically do this once. Let's also point out that this land produces colorless instead of red. It's just not worth it.
I play Conjurer's Closet because it's awesome. Something something value, something something artifact.
Pie and Cake are really the most interesting card in terms of what we value the most. It's a token generator that does something else. Those tokens fly, which as mentioned are absolutely huge, and those tokens can be sacrificed for The Greater Good (the greater good) in a fiery ball of fire. I really do have a certain eloquence about me.
So far as the "win by itself" rule - Pie and Cake definitely count. Dropping it gives you instant access to on-demand removal that synergizes with Confusion in the Ranks and Genesis Chamber. Basically it's a human Siege-Gang. The more I talk about it the more I want it now, and the hungrier I get...
My biggest question for it is how the deck will progress from here. We're slowly, slowly approaching to an artifact renewal theme, and I wonder if this style is superior to Krenko's goblin spam backup-main-plan.
In terms of Flameshadow's usefulness - Once again we're confronted with the question of "does it win by itself" ... the answer is certainly no, but the answer in magical christmas land is yes. What it does is add double the value to all of your threats, of which we run many. Arguably the constant cost is a huge downside, but I really like the potential gains. See Closet.
I'm not going to outright dismiss it until I try it, but damn if I don't like what it can do.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
I think I left for Belize and then a few road trips through the continental US without updating the front list to include both Daretti and Feldon, so tonight I'll make those changes.. barring any sudden phone calls involving expensive alcohols....
It was nice to play magic with some folks in Tampa Bay, Houston, Atlanta, and Phoenix. Y'all know who you are. But you're no longer important! Ha!
It's also nice to see a lot of really cool things from Origins that could possibly make the list, if not change how it functions.
We're missing a lot of commons and uncommons, but I don't think that that will be an issue for discussing what is out in this set. Here's to hoping one and two drop token producers.
Let's just go down the list of what's out now:
Abbot of Keral Keep - Cheap, efficient, not for us. This is pretty handy for any R/x aggro decks though.
Avaricious Dragon - Draw, that's good. Discard, that's bad. Not tutor-able by any current means, and doesn't do anything useful.
Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh//Chandra, Roaring Flame - Just like abbot, this is pretty cool for an R/x deck. Actually, it would be really cool to have her at the helm of a list. I'm pretty sure that I can find a way to make that stuff infinite in mono red.... but it's not for us.
Embermaw Hellion - Expensive, and most of our "damage sources" end up being colorless or lethal without help. Nope.
Enthralling Victor - I kinda like this guy as a metaspecific pick. Maybe someone likes spamming Fauna Shaman. Maybe Birds of Paradise really wants to generate red mana before sacrificing itself to the torturous god of Skullclamp. It's pretty cool, but it's also expensive. If you want to play it, make sure you know why you're playing it. I won't be.
Exquisite Firecraft - I just want to point out how cool this card's name is. Exquisite Firecraft. Four-of.
Flameshadow Conjuring - Ello, poppit. "Whenever a nontoken creature enters the battlefield under your control, pay r. If you do, put a token onto the battlefield that's a copy of that creature. That token gains haste. Exile it at the beginning of the next end step."
That's pretty damn sexy. If I'm remembering the new(forever!) legend rule, this means if you feel like it you can pay for Norin and sacrifice the copy instantly, giving you triggers for Pandemonium and Warstorm Surge. Doesn't proc Genesis Chamber again, but oh well. It's four mana, which is okay, but it's triple colorless, which is good. I will definitely be experimenting with this sucker.
Ghirapur Gearcrafter - The key part here is that these tokens fly. It's only one, so for three mana this dude isn't worth it, but damn if the prospect of flying tokens doesn't make me happy.
Magmatic Insight - Red Draw. Nothing to see here for us, lands are more valuable than Squee.
Pia and Kiran Nalaar - It's pie and cake! At first I was really not into this card, but then I read it a few more times. Damn! It's a Beetleback Chief that turns myr into firebombs. Is this the beginning of moving away from the Goblin subtheme? It's going to get really hard to justify many of the goblins if stuff like this comes out.
Pyromancer's Goggles - It needs to be mentioned. Just don't do it. Don't look at this, don't think about this. It's only good in very specific decks and that deck isn't helmed by Norin.
Good to be home ...for now!
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
6cc Chandra isn't on the board, or anywhere near to it. The + ability is so underrated. It's not often that you get four damage in red. Four damage is a ton! Kill that Bob, kill that Stoneforge, kill that Zur, kill that 0/1 kobold...
On that note, Flametongue Kavu has sometimes entered my list for pretty much this reason. I love blowing things up - spot removal is the most underutilized aspect of EDH. Most players seem to denounce it in favor of costly wipes that might not be quick enough to effectively change the flow of the game.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
There is always commander damage Norin!
But uh... no.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
It's not like our draw situation is so horrible that giving someone else free cards will help us. Yes, there are some neat tricks you can do with Homeward Path, but I don't think this interaction alone is worth it.
It's close, but I don't think it's quite what we're looking for.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Yes! I haven't updated the front post with the last round of updates - but I'll be doing so by the weekend, when sobriety kicks in from combination New Years and age up. After I mentioned the updates I was considering there were many papers to write and things to do and I haven't had a chance to do maintenance.
Those changes are:
+ Daretti, Scrap Savant
+ Feldon of the Third Path
- Viashino Racketeer
- Trading Post
I think they've been mostly discussed prior, so I won't go into any details unless you've got questions.
Mind's Eye is, however, still on the table for cutting. Outpost Siege looks really damn good, and has the option of being either a draw engine or another Norin Engine. Possible switch here? Being able to reset it with Cloudstone Curio is just some pretty sexy icing on the cake.
Flamerush Rider is pretty cool, except for the fact that not much in this deck is attacking unless it's for value or to kill the target. However, the Dash mechanic makes me giggle - not for what we've seen now, but for future spoilers. I can't wait to see what pops up.
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon - It's a good thing that myr tokens are colorless! I expect to see a ton of this guy, but I won't be looking to add him to Norin. The synergy with the rest of the deck just isn't there, and his mana cost is fairly prohibitive. I'd rather not spend 8 mana on something that requires protecting as such. It's putting an entire turn's worth of eggs in a basket you don't care about. Not happening.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Absolutely not. They're completely different cards with completely different values.
Honestly, you couldn't pay me to play offering.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary