I've never seen that mulligan rule before, I just read your post over here. I feel like if I found out that was the mulligan rule though I would immediately start making a manaless dredge EDH deck. It's not really feasible normally but if I can guarantee Bazaar of Baghdad in my opening hand it might be. Not sure if there's 98 other singletons to fill it with that work with dredge though. Hmmmmmmm
Yea I know what you mean tap tap, I just don't make all my decks that way. We have a pretty large group and a variety of players so I have some decks that are super tuned and some which are less so. But obviously once you sit down, playing to win is the name of the game. That's what I was saying, to me Karn is a more casual deck just due to the natural vulnerability of being mono-brown. Even though it is basically a ramp-combo deck.
If you are playing Karn in a cut-throat meta against tuned Narset and Arcum decks with success I'd be really curious what your decklist is. Mind sharing?
Ok fine you're right that's a stretch, your opponents will definitely be pissed off by it. I was just thinking there's plenty of good removal with an odd cost and if they have any of it then they don't care but yea, its an auto-answer thing.
I guess I consider Karn one of my more casual decks so in the environment I play it in big mana makes you the big target. Obviously karn ramps up pretty quick but I prefer to explode into a win rather than just explode as soon as possible. Therefore I limit the number of big things in my deck and run obstacles and things to keep the focus off me. A 9-mana obstacle is kind of counter-intuitive at that point - I've already made myself a target so anything I want to be playing at that point should win the game very quickly.
Maybe I'll give him a shot though. It's probably time to shake up the deck a bit. Maybe I'll try to cut out some of cheap obstacles for more ramp and bigger things and take a more aggressive approach for a bit to see how that works. I pulled one in a pack after all, might as well use him.
So has anyone done serious playtesting for an update? I don't think there has been quite enough for a total remastering of the list, but I also don't think anyone can deny that there are a handful of relevant cards printed in the last few sets, none of which are in the "official list". I like to think of the original poster's list on page one as the sort of master copy, at least it's where I started. I heard OP mention hangarback walker, we have Scour from Existence and Void Winnower which I love, I still run Ugin, and I'm not sure where we ended up on metalworker. Any thoughts?
Honestly, kind of disappointed, nothing really game changing ever got spoiled in my opinion. Sanctum of Ugin is probably the most exciting new card for me as it provides another much needed way to tutor for our wincons, it's a land, and its basically free. That will definitely find a home. Titan's Presence also should find its way in but I do have do some math on how often I'll have the kind of creature it needs. Still though, it's hard to ignore that kind of utility in our lack of colors. Other than that there's some I'm considering but none that are too exciting.
Hedron Archive - Pretty solid rock that can also turn into card advantage later. Probably find a home, just need to find out what to remove
Scour from Existence - Might replace Karn Liberated honestly. I like karn so idk if it'll happen but usually he exiles one thing and dies so this is the same thing at instant speed.
Conduit of Ruin - Sadly can't tutor Volty but still a tutor and a cost reducer so worth considering.
Spawning Bed - It's a lot of tokens who can also be mana. Expensive ability sure but the land taps for mana in the meantime so no drawback
Cards that I thought about but am pretty sure I'm rejecting
New Ulamog - I run Old Ulamog and I'm sticking with him. 2 permanents over 1 is nice but not enough to swing him in my favor. Annihilator is so much more effective than that attack trigger its not even a comparison and I want the graveyard reshuffling (that was like half the point).
Void Winnower - I don't really like him. 9 with no real protection and no guaranteed impact on the game, he might screw an opponent or not affect them at all. More importantly he would be devastating to us if cloned, stolen , Bribery'ed, recurred, etc. since a lot of our wincons are even. It's like playing Iona, Shield of Emeria in a deck that is mono-white or mostly white - you just don't do it. When creatures cost 9 in EDH and are obviously devastating they are just as likely to be used against you as they are to work for you (perhaps even more likely to be working against you in truth).
Gruesome Slaughter - Could be a one-sided board wipe with karn but seems to cute to really be effective. If I could hit players too I might consider it as the ability to surprise eliminate a player would up its value significantly. As it is, unlikely.
Aligned Hedron Network - Meh. Could definitely be a dead card and even when played isn't permanent. Meh. Feel free to prove me wrong.
Shrine of the Forsaken God - After my initial outburst I've been quickly brought around on this card. Probably not actually worth a land slot given how little it will be active.
EDIT: oh and sorry, both Ugin, the Spirit Dragon and Metalworker should definitely be in and stay in, they are both incredible. Metalworker is so much mana so early that its insane. And ugin is often just a win, its like our own colorless Cyclonic Rift except permanent.
I've been piloting a Karn list for a while now and I find it hard to cut another land for this. The deck thrives on not needing seven or more lands because of all the artifact ramp. If you're at seven lands in the deck then you either already have enough mana or have had a terribly slow game.
Honestly, I'd rather run a utility land in its place. Love the art though and I think it's good in a more budget list but it's hard to have it compete around all-star lands like Rishadan Port, Strip Mine, or Ancient Tomb.
I guess, it just seemed easy. Yes I mean the second ability won't be used a lot but the number of times when I've had 7 or more lands is still greater than the number of times I've made a goat off of Springjack Pasture or made someone in this deck unblockable with Rogue's Passage, both of which are still in the main decklist.
I am so excited for this set! I get the feeling, though, that the new U;amog is going to be banned in commander fairly soon. As sad as that makes me, I just can't see him staying legal.
This confuses me, I don't see why he would be banned, he really doesn't seem all that threatening in commander. If someone taps out 10 an plays him and picks 2 of my permanents to exile then I'll groan but probably just be glad it wasn't a Terastodon. And I mean they are tapping out 10 for him so exiling two permanents seems fair.
His actual body doesn't even concern me. He can exile cards all day from my library, as long as I have a library left at the end I don't care. So that means I have 4 turns to find an answer while I lose my smallest creature a turn chump-blocking him. If I can't find an answer to this guy in 4 turns then I deserve to lose and I need to remake my deck.
Hello all! I have been playing Karn for a relatively small amount of time comparatively speaking - that is, only about a year and a half - and I have an honest question about Deal Broker in this list. First off, I was told by my LGS that he isn't even legal in commander, but that aside I switched him out for a Kozilek, Butcher of Truth. I find that the draw four makes up for the lack of deal broker and you get the added bonus of the entire graveyard recursion as well as the fatty. Thoughts? The looks I get when I use this deck are always priceless, and for that I thank you, OP. I had a "decent" deck before I found this thread, but when I started looking at it, it had just been an animate and swing deck. This thread is amazing!
On a similar note, I'm seriously wondering if there may have to be a split after Battle for Zendikar. Do you guys think that the whole colorless mechanic will produce enough things usable with the artifact theme that the deck may have to change significantly?
Deal Broker is absolutely legal in any eternal playable format, if anyone gives you any trouble just redirect them to gatherer. The fact that he has a lot of text that only applies to draft doesn't make him illegal, it just means he has a lot of dead text during normal play. If that made him unplayable then he would never have actually been legal, he has the same amount of dead text in any game you play him in even if you are actually doing a draft. The minute the draft is over all that text is dead.
As for the swap, that works but it is rather amusing. Normally people don't swap out CMC 3 things for CMC 10 things. In my mind they have radically different use cases. Deal broker adds some cheap, reusable card selection you can use to improve the quality of your hand throughout the game, kozi is a game-winner.
FWIW though I recently added both ulamog and kozi as well. I found the deck was a little too easy to disrupt. Everyone throws in some artifact and nonbasic hate and they fling it out the minute you become remotely threatening because they know that while it hurts everyone it totally destroys karn. However the one thing in this deck I can almost always count on is a lot of colorless mana. So I'm trying them out as alternate wincons that demand attention and non-artifact hating answers. They can run away with the game if not immediately answered and I can continue setting up my combo(s) behind them in case they are answered.
Plus they obviously provide needed utilities - exiling, card draw and graveyard recursion.
I was thinking the same thing. I slotted in Nova Pentacle and Icy Manipulator last night because I had spares and I have no flex spots left. I think that new Ulamog is straight up better then his previous version for my needs (removal) so its just a swap there. I know its first world problems but I worry about adding too much colorless to the deck because I have had games where I started off early with a Mishra's Workshop (sometimes copying it) and had Eldrazi sitting in my hand because they cannot be cast with Workshop mana.
Well maybe but there is one serious downside - no shuffle your graveyard clause. Half of my reason for wanting to include one of those big fellas is for recursion. Recursion is such a problem in this deck I want it to reshuffle my library when it hits the graveyard however it gets there. Since the new one lacks that clause I'm leaning away from it. Although I will admit, that cast trigger is awesome.
Seems very playable. Are we still playing Blinkmoth Urn? If so I think we cut it for this. Urn always bothered me, truth be told I think it might actually be bad for us. It obviously sounds good since we have a lot of artifacts but in practice it always seemed very winmore when it's working the way its supposed to and obviously horrible if you've just been wiped or something. Worse your opponents get to take some benefit out of it first and if you were winning that little extra mana boost could be exactly what they need to get back into the game. This is a solid, playable rock that can cycle for card advantage, I like it a lot.
I think it was announced they could do it at pax Australia a while back. I just mention it because there could be a colorless matters theme in BFZ.
I can't find an exact quote but it sounds like MaRo talked about some rule changes that would make colorless decks stronger and more able to survive Wave of Vitriol and Aaron said they have figured out a solution to the colorless basic issue. They were both specifically talking about it in the context of commander though so while there may be something in BFZ I'm leaning towards one of the precons in commander 2016 being colorless. Either way, seems like great news for us!
So what does everyone think about the new storage land we're getting ? Speaking of land Mark Rosewater stated a solution to colorless basics has been found, so we'll probbly be getting them soon in BFZ or the 2015 commander decks (either a karn deck or a domain list that wants to domain for 6 as was the original intention of colorless basics). Which lands will you cut for basics. We'll lose some utility but gain a better ability to withstand non basic hosers and be able to tutor for basic.
Wait really? I hadn't heard that, what's your source? That would be amazing, in addition to surviving non basic hate would be awesome to be able to use solemn simulacrum, burnished hart, wayfarer's bauble and all the other good colorless basic fetchers
He was already a powerhouse for us with that -X and now we can add in a little bit of recursion just for him at basically zero cost to us (since the land still taps for colorless). Also makes Steel Hellkite a bit more valuable I suppose but I'm still not a big fan of that card.
Yea I agree. There's some cool stuff but nothing I'm really in love with, and definitely nothing past Ugin in the artifacts/colorless department. I think Ugin makes it though so I guess its nice we got one new toy.
At least we got a sand-surfing goblin, that's a win for everyone right there. I feel like my life has been improved already just knowing it will exist.
In all seriousness though I think the orrery swap captures his day to day use pretty well. Its less about cheating costs and more about adding another way on a stick to do things at instant speed in a sorcery speed deck. Things like Erratic Portal, Oblivion Stone, nevinyrral's disk, Mimic vat, honestly everything is more effective at instant speed. He's not the best thing in the world but he can be handy a lot. And he's cheap
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If you are playing Karn in a cut-throat meta against tuned Narset and Arcum decks with success I'd be really curious what your decklist is. Mind sharing?
I guess I consider Karn one of my more casual decks so in the environment I play it in big mana makes you the big target. Obviously karn ramps up pretty quick but I prefer to explode into a win rather than just explode as soon as possible. Therefore I limit the number of big things in my deck and run obstacles and things to keep the focus off me. A 9-mana obstacle is kind of counter-intuitive at that point - I've already made myself a target so anything I want to be playing at that point should win the game very quickly.
Maybe I'll give him a shot though. It's probably time to shake up the deck a bit. Maybe I'll try to cut out some of cheap obstacles for more ramp and bigger things and take a more aggressive approach for a bit to see how that works. I pulled one in a pack after all, might as well use him.
Honestly, kind of disappointed, nothing really game changing ever got spoiled in my opinion. Sanctum of Ugin is probably the most exciting new card for me as it provides another much needed way to tutor for our wincons, it's a land, and its basically free. That will definitely find a home. Titan's Presence also should find its way in but I do have do some math on how often I'll have the kind of creature it needs. Still though, it's hard to ignore that kind of utility in our lack of colors. Other than that there's some I'm considering but none that are too exciting.
Cards that I thought about but am pretty sure I'm rejecting
EDIT: oh and sorry, both Ugin, the Spirit Dragon and Metalworker should definitely be in and stay in, they are both incredible. Metalworker is so much mana so early that its insane. And ugin is often just a win, its like our own colorless Cyclonic Rift except permanent.
I guess, it just seemed easy. Yes I mean the second ability won't be used a lot but the number of times when I've had 7 or more lands is still greater than the number of times I've made a goat off of Springjack Pasture or made someone in this deck unblockable with Rogue's Passage, both of which are still in the main decklist.
Welp, that's in lol.
This confuses me, I don't see why he would be banned, he really doesn't seem all that threatening in commander. If someone taps out 10 an plays him and picks 2 of my permanents to exile then I'll groan but probably just be glad it wasn't a Terastodon. And I mean they are tapping out 10 for him so exiling two permanents seems fair.
His actual body doesn't even concern me. He can exile cards all day from my library, as long as I have a library left at the end I don't care. So that means I have 4 turns to find an answer while I lose my smallest creature a turn chump-blocking him. If I can't find an answer to this guy in 4 turns then I deserve to lose and I need to remake my deck.
Deal Broker is absolutely legal in any eternal playable format, if anyone gives you any trouble just redirect them to gatherer. The fact that he has a lot of text that only applies to draft doesn't make him illegal, it just means he has a lot of dead text during normal play. If that made him unplayable then he would never have actually been legal, he has the same amount of dead text in any game you play him in even if you are actually doing a draft. The minute the draft is over all that text is dead.
As for the swap, that works but it is rather amusing. Normally people don't swap out CMC 3 things for CMC 10 things. In my mind they have radically different use cases. Deal broker adds some cheap, reusable card selection you can use to improve the quality of your hand throughout the game, kozi is a game-winner.
FWIW though I recently added both ulamog and kozi as well. I found the deck was a little too easy to disrupt. Everyone throws in some artifact and nonbasic hate and they fling it out the minute you become remotely threatening because they know that while it hurts everyone it totally destroys karn. However the one thing in this deck I can almost always count on is a lot of colorless mana. So I'm trying them out as alternate wincons that demand attention and non-artifact hating answers. They can run away with the game if not immediately answered and I can continue setting up my combo(s) behind them in case they are answered.
Plus they obviously provide needed utilities - exiling, card draw and graveyard recursion.
Well maybe but there is one serious downside - no shuffle your graveyard clause. Half of my reason for wanting to include one of those big fellas is for recursion. Recursion is such a problem in this deck I want it to reshuffle my library when it hits the graveyard however it gets there. Since the new one lacks that clause I'm leaning away from it. Although I will admit, that cast trigger is awesome.
Seems very playable. Are we still playing Blinkmoth Urn? If so I think we cut it for this. Urn always bothered me, truth be told I think it might actually be bad for us. It obviously sounds good since we have a lot of artifacts but in practice it always seemed very winmore when it's working the way its supposed to and obviously horrible if you've just been wiped or something. Worse your opponents get to take some benefit out of it first and if you were winning that little extra mana boost could be exactly what they need to get back into the game. This is a solid, playable rock that can cycle for card advantage, I like it a lot.
I can't find an exact quote but it sounds like MaRo talked about some rule changes that would make colorless decks stronger and more able to survive Wave of Vitriol and Aaron said they have figured out a solution to the colorless basic issue. They were both specifically talking about it in the context of commander though so while there may be something in BFZ I'm leaning towards one of the precons in commander 2016 being colorless. Either way, seems like great news for us!
Wait really? I hadn't heard that, what's your source? That would be amazing, in addition to surviving non basic hate would be awesome to be able to use solemn simulacrum, burnished hart, wayfarer's bauble and all the other good colorless basic fetchers
He was already a powerhouse for us with that -X and now we can add in a little bit of recursion just for him at basically zero cost to us (since the land still taps for colorless). Also makes Steel Hellkite a bit more valuable I suppose but I'm still not a big fan of that card.
At least we got a sand-surfing goblin, that's a win for everyone right there. I feel like my life has been improved already just knowing it will exist.
In all seriousness though I think the orrery swap captures his day to day use pretty well. Its less about cheating costs and more about adding another way on a stick to do things at instant speed in a sorcery speed deck. Things like Erratic Portal, Oblivion Stone, nevinyrral's disk, Mimic vat, honestly everything is more effective at instant speed. He's not the best thing in the world but he can be handy a lot. And he's cheap