So Mana Crypt is about to suddenly see more copies in circulation. That might provide enough data to make a meaningful call on whether or not it is too good.
All this means is a million EDH games worldwide that could have been fun will be ruined by mana crypt -> more ramp -> lol i'm so far ahead gg while the RC continues to do nothing
If it becomes popular enough, a lot of the "niche" control cards we're so loathe to run might no longer become niche but make in roads into the meta. That would mean a movement away from NWO ETB: the gathering some of us have been lamenting, since those cards are often too bulky to compete with this. In their stead we might welcome some of the cheaper hate and stax options to more readily shut down artifact ramp. One-drop-hate becomes good again.
Also, you'll usually hold on to Mana Crypt until the turn you plan to do something big with it, kind of like a ritual. So it's more, ramp -> suddenly mana crypt -> 'Lolzilek.' It's free so unless you need the acceleration immediately there's no reason to risk taking three damage a turn.
1: There is no answer that is actually efficient to deal with mana crypt. It's +2 mana and a 1 for 1 card trade if you answer it with a single target removal.
2: You don't tend to hold back mana crypt. You cast it the turn you can make use of the mana, which is usually the first turn.
Hopefully this mana crypt reprint will make people see sol ring/mana crypt for the cancer that they are and finally have them get the axe.
At this point I feel like sol ring will never leave because it's a flag ship card of the format. "edh is fun! you can run sol ring!!!" I hear that a lot.
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
Serious question: If the ban list were 50, 100 or even 200 cards, what are the practical issues that would arise?
Are you a player who wants to know if a certain card is banned? Internet -> open page with ban list -> control F
It's been said that a long ban list is difficult to "maintain." What does that mean?
edit: unrelated but holy crap, if you think yawgmoth's bargain is stronger than necropotence, YOU ARE SAYING A 6 MANA SPELL IS STRONGER THAN AN EXTREMELY SIMILAR 3 MANA SPELL. I know EDH is the battlecruiser format but if you're trying to discuss the card's POWER, the difference between a 3 drop and 6 drop is VAST. Magic 101?
I should at least be seeing people arguing about how much the triple black cost of Necropotence matters. But if you're building to win, and have all the best mana sources, it doesn't matter a whole lot.
Remember prismatic? That was a cool format that had a banlist the size of the moon. Here's the reason EDH is so popular and why it will remain popular. You can play a lot of cards that are busted OP. There. I said it. No one plays this format for fairness. They play this format for cards like sol ring, tooth and nail, demonic tutor, and mana drain. This format is basically vintage less the power 9 and consistency. As this format is multiplayer, you can have a tuned out deck with all the dual lands, but still get cluster bunked by the table.
Also, necropotence has a high chance of getting you blown out without any benefit. It's weaker by miles unless the table lets you do your thing.
You have a very biased picture of the format.
The number of players that play EDH to play cards worth over $100 a piece is very small.
My bad on the mana drain. I haven't checked the price on that in 15 years... wow. The rest I stand by.
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
Serious question: If the ban list were 50, 100 or even 200 cards, what are the practical issues that would arise?
Are you a player who wants to know if a certain card is banned? Internet -> open page with ban list -> control F
It's been said that a long ban list is difficult to "maintain." What does that mean?
edit: unrelated but holy crap, if you think yawgmoth's bargain is stronger than necropotence, YOU ARE SAYING A 6 MANA SPELL IS STRONGER THAN AN EXTREMELY SIMILAR 3 MANA SPELL. I know EDH is the battlecruiser format but if you're trying to discuss the card's POWER, the difference between a 3 drop and 6 drop is VAST. Magic 101?
I should at least be seeing people arguing about how much the triple black cost of Necropotence matters. But if you're building to win, and have all the best mana sources, it doesn't matter a whole lot.
Remember prismatic? That was a cool format that had a banlist the size of the moon. Here's the reason EDH is so popular and why it will remain popular. You can play a lot of cards that are busted OP. There. I said it. No one plays this format for fairness. They play this format for cards like sol ring, tooth and nail, demonic tutor, and mana drain. This format is basically vintage less the power 9 and consistency. As this format is multiplayer, you can have a tuned out deck with all the dual lands, but still get cluster bunked by the table.
Also, necropotence has a high chance of getting you blown out without any benefit. It's weaker by miles unless the table lets you do your thing.
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
Might be hyperbole. But I've seen enough games absolutely ruined due to arguing over "what is legal". The banlist being "official" keeps games safer in general.
I've seen people getting assaulted with a 12 inch cheese pretzel over rubbing in the prime time ban to someone that liked the card. Beer was involved, but smart players scooped before that spilled. Spoiler alert: beer in card sleeves sucks.
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
I really dislike the complete banning of cards previously banned only as commanders. Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary especially. He is so much worse as part of the 99 compared to when he's your general it's amazing. In my own play group, I still run him as part of the 99 in an Edric, Spymaster of Trest deck (where the dual lands make him much worse) but there's always that guy who complains at the LGS about using something on the banned list.
Join the club. It was one of the biggest changes that a lot of people who used braids as part of the 99 are still pissed about.
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
Call me crazy, but instead of banning cards for violating personal opinions of how EDH games should be... just find playgroups that like similar styles of play. Certain cards that warp the game around itself or completely change the game dynamics to 1v3 consistently are problems. Cards that have the potential to be abused to do certain things is not. It's a player choice that starts at deck building. If a player adds a two card combo and tooth and nail... how the combo is assembled is irrelevant. It doesn't matter. That player already decided they wanted to play a certain style. Banning cards like gifts or tooth and nail doesn't change that. Not playing with people like that does. 99% of the problems in this format start with the player and deck building. Certain cards like palinchron just scream combo piece. It's all they're really good for. And that's fine for some players. I don't see what's so offensive about players choosing how to play their games. Color me confused.
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
The original thought process behind banned cards fell into one of two categories. 1) "Oh, that's stupid" (Biorhythm). 2) "Ick. We don't like the kind of games that creates" (P9, Balance). We've refined things a little since then, but those roots are still there.
Why don't you ban pieces of the easiest, most common infinite combos? Power artifact or palinchron, for example.
These are cards that I have never seen nor heard of used for anything except going infinite.
I've seen people use these cards legitimately. For example, I saw someone cast palinchron into some random 7 drop. Kinda like how hermit druid is legitimate. No one uses it fairly, but it can be used fairly.
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
Upheavel - we got cyclonic rift... why do people want this? Just to clarify, it's not the cuthroats using this that bother me. It's the trolls that cast this, float mana, and drop a zozu that concern me. At best it wins the game, at worst it's a stalling reset with the intent to annoy the players. Not to mention, players with a reliquary tower will be at a stupid advantage after this resolves. I can see why it's on the list, but I understand why some people would want it off. In a vacuum the card is fine, it's the plethora of annoying uses that concern me.
Painter's servant - Ugin, Iona, washout, all is dust, etc. I think it's become very clear with bfz and ogw that color interactions are due for more of these types of cards. PS just interacts with so many cards. Some beneficial, some not so much. I'd rather this ability be tacked on something not a creature, but it's not and wizards has taken another stab at this guy... clearly it's a design problem.
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
I used to be all for banning bribery. Now i'm kinda on the fence because with new mana production rules change... Praetor's Grasp got very, very interesting it's no longer really unique anymore. Bribery tends to bring late game behemoth's into play earlier than expected and has always been brought up for nearly every creature banned in the last 5 years. Prime time? Blue decks bribed it and cloned it, so we banned prime time. Sundering Titan? I remember that same excuse being used, though to a lesser extent. Emrakul and Griselbrand? Blue decks bribed them early and won. Prophet? Bribery was basically a second copy of POK. Even SP's interaction was brought up as an issue. I'm not saying that all those cards were banned just because of bribery... but seriously, it keeps coming up to some extent in every discussion. Even supporters of banning Avacyn and Iona use bribery as part of their argument. I'm not saying ban bribery because it's kinda what blue does, but at the same time, I'm not up for keeping it removed from discussions because it does show up a lot and has contributed to a lot of ire towards the aforementioned banned cards. I think bribery is one of the most influential cards in this format. It gives access to off color bombs outside of your library. It doesn't reward the player for running wincons, it punishes the opponent for running influential bombs.
But above all else... it takes a lot of time. That's my biggest gribe. It's not like cranial extraction or wincon removal cards. The fact that you're choosing something to go into play under your control and have your deck interact with it should yield longer decision making processes. Also... in larger tournament settings... it's a great way to get your cards stolen. I also have a personal problem with other people handling my decks. It's genuinely distressing.
I can definitely understand why people would want this card banned. Should it? I don't know.
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
Biorhythm, Worldfire, and Sway of the Stars are primarily banned not because of any format interactions (although Worldfire and Sway letting you float mana for your commander IS a factor), but because they invalidate the game up to the point where they are cast. They set life totals for all players at a near-lethal number and destroy all permanents, for two of them, and one resolving after the board gets wiped and you play your commander wins you the game. For a format that is as much about the experience of playing and the journey of working your way through these games to a win or an epic finish, they are cards that are anti-climactic and make everything you did up to that point completely inconsequential and meaningless. In a social format (NOT a competitive or a casual one), the type of games that you have are just as important to the spirit of the format as anything else. Their being banned furthers the format's vision and I have no issue with that. They can stay gone.
I believe it, but I think people who hold this view are missing some key facts about the games they're playing.
Worldfire, Biorhythm, Sway of the Stars, and Apocalypse to some extent all have high mana costs. In a lot of games, being able to cast them is an epic feat in and of itself, and the tale of the player who survived long enough, through his opponents' disruption efforts is quite the fun journey. I find that in interactive games, cards and combos that would otherwise result in a disappointing win for most people are actually quite satisfying to lose to. I think the same is probably true of all of these types of cards: in highly interactive games, they pose no problem. They only invalidate the boardstate if getting to the point where you could cast them is assured, and not a feat in and of itself.
I understand though that that level of interactivity is not something that is desired by the majority of EDH players, or the RC either. To a certain extent, EDH has become about building towers of cards in relative isolation from your opponents, and then throwing haymaker after haymaker at each other. In that environment, Biorhythm, Worldfire, and Sway of the Stars probably are problems.
Epic feat? Tell that to an elf deck that ramps into Biorhythm.
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
I don't think anyone is mad about the POK banning. Green decks got to keep muse and blue green decks need to think instead of just eot rofl flashing. I have always maintained, and will maintain that seedborn muse is a better card due to the interaction with non-land and non-creature permanents. The ability to flash creatures is strong... but then there's teferi..... The only thing this banning did in my opinion was simply reward blue green decks for thinking ahead and taking the risk of dropping muse during the main phase as opposed to EOT. I'm fine with that.
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
Really? Vault is just a colorless Dark Ritual a significant portion of the time. I 100% can't see it banned in a format where Sol Ring is legal.
Whoops I made a mistake there, it should have been crypt, not vault. I think vault and ring are ok. Crypt on the other hand should go. The way I look at it, sol ring gives 2 mana for one. Crypt gives two mana for 0..... It's essentially a mox with no relevant downside. It was designed around having 20 life. In a 40 life format... it's just way too efficient. Banning it would not gut or hurt any specific commander either, so I really don't see a downside to banning. The only reason to not ban it is the risk of angering a lot of people that had/bought them when they were cheaper. I could make a deck for the cost of that card... or buy all the commander 2015 decks....
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
Just for patching Celestial Dawn... I am now inclined to make sweet sweet love to Sheldon. All he has to do is unban braids (note this request only stands until wizards creates a non-legendary reprint of braids) and gifts and ban mana vault. Good change. I will enjoy cloning creatures with relevant abilities out of color and finally using those abilities. That's a plus for gameplay without screwing over deck building.
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
There are people who are way better at math than I am so maybe they can speak to the specifics, but I'm reasonably sure the numbers work out that removing off-color fetches would not have a significant impact on how efficiently a deck works or how many turns it will take you to get all your colors or however one might measure such things. Anyone claiming that removing off-color fetches will cripple their deck is being hyperbolic at best, disingenuous, or simply blatantly lying because they don't like the idea. Which, I might point out, is an idea and one that we've had for a long, long time and not a 'proposed change.'
Well, you're not just removing off color fetches. For consistency sake, a lot of other fetch lands (panorama) and cards that mention other basic land types become locked out. It would basically gut Titania. By gut, I mean it will no longer work and needlessly force other options. Her land base would essentially be replaced by less optimal lands and she would be forced to cut non-land cards to make room for more sac effects to off set this. The new Omnath would also take a beating in options. The real damage would be in the 2-3 color deck range as the early color fixing and thinning really make the game more enjoyable. That's the key, theme is great, but if i'm sitting there not being able to cast my commander hoping to top deck into the right land... only to get a CIT dual land.... That's just burning through turns. Not even comparing this to competitive play groups, just normal play. When players are casting stuff and i'm sitting there struggling to get a plains... it's not fun. If we had infinite mulligans, maybe, but we don't.
On another tangent, I have a buddy that has an izzet deck, but runs sliver queen as the commander... he runs that as the commander for... and I quote "I wanted to run soulfire grand master and riku of two reflections. I bring this up because removing off color fetches would make 5 color commanders more desirable just for mana fixing three color decks. Why stop there? Just transform karador into sliver queen and add time stretch. That's the kind of deck building I don't want to see promoted, especially for the sake of flavor.
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
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At this point I feel like sol ring will never leave because it's a flag ship card of the format. "edh is fun! you can run sol ring!!!" I hear that a lot.
My bad on the mana drain. I haven't checked the price on that in 15 years... wow. The rest I stand by.
Remember prismatic? That was a cool format that had a banlist the size of the moon. Here's the reason EDH is so popular and why it will remain popular. You can play a lot of cards that are busted OP. There. I said it. No one plays this format for fairness. They play this format for cards like sol ring, tooth and nail, demonic tutor, and mana drain. This format is basically vintage less the power 9 and consistency. As this format is multiplayer, you can have a tuned out deck with all the dual lands, but still get cluster bunked by the table.
Also, necropotence has a high chance of getting you blown out without any benefit. It's weaker by miles unless the table lets you do your thing.
I've seen people getting assaulted with a 12 inch cheese pretzel over rubbing in the prime time ban to someone that liked the card. Beer was involved, but smart players scooped before that spilled. Spoiler alert: beer in card sleeves sucks.
Join the club. It was one of the biggest changes that a lot of people who used braids as part of the 99 are still pissed about.
I've seen people use these cards legitimately. For example, I saw someone cast palinchron into some random 7 drop. Kinda like how hermit druid is legitimate. No one uses it fairly, but it can be used fairly.
That was the exact same excuse justification for a lot of cards on the banlist.
Painter's servant - Ugin, Iona, washout, all is dust, etc. I think it's become very clear with bfz and ogw that color interactions are due for more of these types of cards. PS just interacts with so many cards. Some beneficial, some not so much. I'd rather this ability be tacked on something not a creature, but it's not and wizards has taken another stab at this guy... clearly it's a design problem.
Also, ban Derevi.
But above all else... it takes a lot of time. That's my biggest gribe. It's not like cranial extraction or wincon removal cards. The fact that you're choosing something to go into play under your control and have your deck interact with it should yield longer decision making processes. Also... in larger tournament settings... it's a great way to get your cards stolen. I also have a personal problem with other people handling my decks. It's genuinely distressing.
I can definitely understand why people would want this card banned. Should it? I don't know.
Epic feat? Tell that to an elf deck that ramps into Biorhythm.
Whoops I made a mistake there, it should have been crypt, not vault. I think vault and ring are ok. Crypt on the other hand should go. The way I look at it, sol ring gives 2 mana for one. Crypt gives two mana for 0..... It's essentially a mox with no relevant downside. It was designed around having 20 life. In a 40 life format... it's just way too efficient. Banning it would not gut or hurt any specific commander either, so I really don't see a downside to banning. The only reason to not ban it is the risk of angering a lot of people that had/bought them when they were cheaper. I could make a deck for the cost of that card... or buy all the commander 2015 decks....
Well, you're not just removing off color fetches. For consistency sake, a lot of other fetch lands (panorama) and cards that mention other basic land types become locked out. It would basically gut Titania. By gut, I mean it will no longer work and needlessly force other options. Her land base would essentially be replaced by less optimal lands and she would be forced to cut non-land cards to make room for more sac effects to off set this. The new Omnath would also take a beating in options. The real damage would be in the 2-3 color deck range as the early color fixing and thinning really make the game more enjoyable. That's the key, theme is great, but if i'm sitting there not being able to cast my commander hoping to top deck into the right land... only to get a CIT dual land.... That's just burning through turns. Not even comparing this to competitive play groups, just normal play. When players are casting stuff and i'm sitting there struggling to get a plains... it's not fun. If we had infinite mulligans, maybe, but we don't.
On another tangent, I have a buddy that has an izzet deck, but runs sliver queen as the commander... he runs that as the commander for... and I quote "I wanted to run soulfire grand master and riku of two reflections. I bring this up because removing off color fetches would make 5 color commanders more desirable just for mana fixing three color decks. Why stop there? Just transform karador into sliver queen and add time stretch. That's the kind of deck building I don't want to see promoted, especially for the sake of flavor.