MTG Salvation

Being an enchantment is quite relevant as well. Quite a bit easier to kill a Guantlet or Caged Sun and costing only 4 is also a big deal.

Quote from Forgiven

Is there an explanation somewhere in these 2350 post as to why Fabricate is on the blue noncreature list while Tinker isn't?

You can see the official banned list here.

Quote from Svetly

While reading over the list i wondered why the banned Primeval Titan is still around. I suggest it should be exchanged with the new Sylvan Primordial . It's obviously not as powerful as Primetime but it's strong enough for a place among the top green cards and legal in the format.

As much as we wouldn't normally put a card on the list before it's been in circulation for a bit, I think there's enough parallels between Sylvan Primordial and other top cards that this is justified.

Quote from Titancross

One card I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned for M13 is Magmaquake. Its a Starstorm that hits planeswalkers which makes it extremely valuable IMO. I think that Wake of Destruction should come off. It might just be me but wake seems really situational.

I wouldn't call it a Starstorm. Not hitting fliers is a pretty big deal. Also, the odds of there being more than one opposing planeswalker per player is fairly small so it's basically going to be worse than Fault Line almost every time.

Quote from Sinfire Titan

Have you ever used it? Because it's an absolute godsend when used properly.

Yes, but only in Sasaya which is a very demanding deck when it comes to card draw. It's certainly not something I'd recommend for general use.

Most blue decks will play a decent number of wizards as a matter of course (like Snapcaster/Trinket Mage) that make Riptide Lab pretty awesome. This becomes less true the more colors the deck has, so it's worth considering replacements for it.

Windbrisk Heights is way worse than Mosswort Bridge. Bridge and Knoll have the easiest activation requirements to reach over the course of the game and the nature of the Bridge's requirement makes it the best one on timing by a long shot. The timing on Windbrisk Heights is terrible (i.e. it will never be usable except on your own turn after declaring attackers).

Mikokoro is pretty bad.

Alchemist's Refuge isn't a functional printing of Winding Canyons for a couple reasons, but that effect is powerful enough that both should be on the list.

I'm not personally a fan of Scrying Sheets but I'll leave that one for others to debate. I don't mind Rogue's Passage or Desolate Lighthouse but there may be better things to include first.

Quote from jmdt

Mwonvuli Beast Tracker is atleast worth examining for Green. The card basically acts as Fierce Empath #2

There is a big difference between getting something in hand and getting something to top of library. This is compounded by the non-instant nature of Beast Tracker (as opposed to Worldy Tutor, which is quite a fine card).

Quote from Solemn Simulator

No, the "..." probably meant something among the lines of "are you out of your frigging mind?". Dauntless Escort is miles beyond BBE in terms of efficiency.

It was really just about the 'consistency ignored' part.

At some points he supported my own arguments about as well as I did.

Quote from Kyrillos

I realize I have given a list of what could come from a BBE. I think it is staggering the amount of good stuff that can come from a BBE. It's not just a "oh, I got a utility creature/instant/sorcery" from it. There are relevant spells that can come from a BBE Cascade.

Bloodbraid Elf is not some modal spell with 15 options that you just get to choose from.

Quote from Kyrillos

Sure, you've shown a few examples of how BBE could fizzle. There are limitations, as there are with many other cards on the Top 50. I.E. Mnemonic Wall in a deck with few instants/sorceries. The precedent of including a card that could fizzle/be dead is already set.

Wait, what?

You're not going to cast Mnemonic Wall and then suddenly realize that you don't have any instants or sorceries in your graveyard. If it's not a good time to cast Mnemonic Wall you can easily determine that this is the case and just not cast Mnemonic Wall. You don't get to make that determination with BBE.

Quote from Kyrillos

You can abuse the top of your deck with BBE with very little manipulation. BBE remains dangerous, no matter how you approach the arguement. It requires very little setup, in terms of deck construction, to easily abuse.

This says more about deck manipulation than it does about BBE. With deck manipulation, it is a respectable card. Without deck manipulation, it ranges from mediocre to terrible.

Quote from Kyrillos

It fits well into the 4cmc slot.

There is a huge glut of amazing cards at the 4 CMC slot in green. That is not a CMC you want to be competing in.

Quote from Kyrillos

It's great in all-creature Animar lists for starters.

It is a good creature for Animar, yes, but that is a fairly specific synergy. That does not mean it is top 50 material.

Quote from Kyrillos

It has the potential to be far stronger than Dauntless Escort, consistency ignored.

...

Quote from Kyrillos

Countering BBE will still let the second spell go. You're likely getting at least one spell, unless the opponent wastes 2 counters on the BBE+trigger. I call that value.

I can't think why they'd be overly concerned with the 3/2 frame. It is of some value, sure, but this has to be stacked against the fairly good chance that your second spell will be poorly timed or useless so they wouldn't have to care about that part either.

Quote from Kyrillos

It's a 2-for-1 spell, haste. Decent body for the casting cost. Better than Rafiq of the Many since it has an ETB?

Okay, you've given a huge list of possible things that you could cascade into from Bloodbraid Elf.

That is not at all useful.

You do not get control over which one you hit. You are paying extra mana over what one of those spells would cost and this extra payment also comes with a chance of the cascade failing completely.

So the benefit you get for paying extra mana and having no idea what card you're actually going to cast? The ability to attack for 3 that turn.

Quote from Swift2210

I'm not convinced Coiling Oracle should be cut. There is no other creature in the game which can ramp you and give you a card upon entering the battlefield. It works well with many cards: Skullclamp, Natural Order, Birthing Pod, and Force of Will to name a few. He's better than just about all the other creatures on the list which require tapping or dealing damage to trigger an ability

It draws you a card OR ramps. Either way is 1 for 1. And you don't get to control which it is. People generally want the ramp, which will actually happen about 40% of the time. So, you keep a hand with a Coiling Oracle expecting it to be a Farhaven Elf but it turns out to be an Elvish Visionary? Sucks to be you. Just play Farhaven Elf so you know what the hand you kept actually looks like.

Play the spells you're trying to play. Don't play cards that will sometimes get you the spells you're trying to play.

Quote from Doc Faustus

I also think skull clamp is good, but that might just be because i am still in love iwth it from Type 2 and elf clamp.

Skullclamp is absurd, no discussion there.

It's just that the existence of Skullclamp does not mean that 1/1s are inherently some great thing.

Quote from Doc Faustus

Perhaps not but I was trying to say CO was better. I like Dauntless effort but I think (I have never actualy played the card) that it might be underwhelming. It does seem real good with Sun Titain but for Sun Titain I like Saffi Eriksdotter much more.

Already on the list. 'Normal' use of Saffi only saves one creature but lets you reuse EtB triggers. Saffi does have more combo potential, but Escort's normal use is much more significant when it comes to preserving your whole army.

Quote from bfellow

1/1s are the best for clamping. I almost forgot about how great armies of 1/1s are.

This means that Skullclamp is good, not that Memnite is playable.

Quote from Doc Faustus

I see your point on CO but Army ants is a summoning sick two for one and provides no land advantage except to kill at best good nonbasic and any deck worth it's salt is going to be able got get it back or not need it.

I don't think he was trying to say that Army Ants was good.

At any rate, how about that Dauntless Escort?

Can be recurred with Sun Titan. Amazing, and easy to manage, as a surprise Chord of Calling hit. Soaks a sweeper from your opponent (excepting a select few) or lets you break the symmetry on your own sweeper.

Quote from Nyktos

In the universe where 1/1s aren't cards, maybe.

Uh... Welcome to EDH?

Quote from bfellow

I love Coiling Oracle he runs as my 2nd Mulldrifter in Riku or sometimes a more expensive Concentrate if my Reflector is up.

Mulldrifter is +1 card.
Mulldrifter copied once is +3 cards.
Coiling Oracle is +0 cards.
Coiling Oracle copied once is +1 card.
Concentrate is +2 cards.

I love Mulldrifter. Coiling Oracle is +0 cards.

Quote from Summon Leper

Outside of legendary creatures, Explore/Elvish Visionary sounds like an upgrade at the slot, which doesn't say anything about how good it is, but whether nothing is better at the slot. If we're talking about other multi-colored cards at different CMCs, sure. Coiling goes out the window.

Which is why I wouldn't terribly mind waiting for RtR cards, but it's gotta go soon. Although, considering how long we would want to wait for the RtR cards to legitimately prove themselves here are some cards I have played or played against that were used to great effect. I would be willing to defend any of them over Coiling Oracle (and maybe Trygon Predator as well).

• Anathemancer
  
• Cold-Eyed Selkie
  
• Dauntless Escort
  
• Hanna, Ship's Navigator
  
• Juniper Order Ranger
  
• Prince of Thralls

Quote from RWF_Less

So true, I mean, who plays with top of the library affects in EDH? No one! Right? Obviously there's no way to manipulate the card with already played staples.

That is a poor defense for Coiling Oracle. It just happens that those other cards are good for a reason, and that reason is to get more value out of your draws. Coiling Oracle is still a poor way of going through your deck.

Quote from RWF_Less

You've actually played with this right?

Of course. I play him in my Edric elf-ball deck. That deck can go infinite with Cloudstone Curio and it also plays Elvish Visionary and Sylvan Ranger. That is a fairly specific set of conditions.