The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
Alternatively, replace Sphinx of Magosi with Mikokoro, Center of the Sea, use only 8 other lands, and you get infinite milling for an unlimited number of opponents. That only requires 10 lands overall and Turnabout to win.
Sure, but it's still a three card combo: Turnabout, the red land, and Mikokoro. Actually assembling those exact three cards is not easy to setup. Just how many Expedition maps do you have anyway? In contrast, a single intuition for Mindslaver, Life from the Loam, and Academy Ruins will setup a Mindslaver lock. My point is not about the mana required for the combo but just the mere search.
I mean, if you want 3 card combos that end the game, how about Devoted Druid + Experiment Kraj + Immaculate Magristrate? I've done that in my Kraj deck and it's three cards including the general and only requires 6 mana to pull off. Plus it's pieces are green creatures, very easy to search for.
So sorry, I'm not convinced a 3 card combo involving two legendary lands and a turnabout is enough to prove recurring instants is overpowered.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
Edit: You do realize that a "non-sorcery" instant is just an instant, right? Why would you word it that way?
Because I wrote "instant" the first time and people thought I wrote "non-sorcery instant", so I figured people were just bad at reading. I hoped "non-sorcery" would drive home the point of "stop using sorceries as failed counter examples".
Edit 2: Your red land, Turnabout, Sphinx of Magosi in play, and 10 mana besides the red land gives you infinite mana and an infinitely large flying attacker.
So that requires 10 lands + red land + Sphinx of Magos + Turnabout. That seems harder to assemble than 12 lands + Academy Ruins + Mindslaver, though slightly better because it ends the game right there.
I mean, that's a cool combo, but it doesn't strike me like it's so broken it couldn't see print. EDH has much worse three card, 11 mana combos already in it.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
Instants and sorceries are NOT the same thing though. Sorceries are consistently more powerful than instants, which is the whole reason they're sorceries. Notice how every broken card listed was a sorcery?
Just to be clear, what's the most broken thing someone could do with a land that read:
R,T: Put target non-sorcery instant in your graveyard on top of your library.
And using at most 13 mana (including the land), because that's how much you need to Mind Slaver lock someone with Academy Ruins. If you can come up with something significantly more broken for the same mana, or as broken for much less mana, then I'll recant. But pending counter-examples, I stand by the ability being balanced.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
And then you make a UR deck, and nobody else gets to play again. Ever.
:3
What exactly would a blue/red deck do that could put instants back? Okay, so worst case you spend RT to put Cryptic Command on top of your deck, then spend UUU1 to counter exactly one spell for every untap step you get. And how many players do you have in this game? This land would let you spend UUUR3 one per round of turns for a single (card) free counterspell.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
The whole reason Wizards has printed strong mass graveyard removal is as repentance for the horror of dredge. The dredge mechanic thoroughly whacked the vintage and legacy metagames and it really pisses of Wizards that there are competitive decks that don't involve playing lands to cast spells. The whole point of stuff like Bojuka Bog and Leyline of the Void is to constantly nettle the power level of dredge to make sure other decks are dominant in eternal formats. Erik Lauer once said the target audience for Leyline of the Void was "developers who wanted to sleep at night". These are stopgap cards that prevent the format from getting too degenerate.
So no, they will not print any cards intended as explicit counters to these stop gap measures. Your car doesn't have a button that makes the emergency break non-functional for a reason.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
You can make this work without being overly tricky.
Null Engine 1
Artifact
Whenever a player casts a spell, counter it if three spells with the same name have been cast this turn.
Whenever a player activates an ability, counter it if that ability has been activated three times this turn.
This still isn't a printable card as written though. It works within the rules, but the two triggers are fundamentally different in a way that's very unintuitive to new players. WotC doesn't like printing cards that people naturally "get wrong" at first glance.
The difference is that the first trigger counts spells by name while the second counts abilities from a single source. Forget for a moment that mana abilities can't be countered. If they could, this thing wouldn't try to copy the fourth time you tapped a forest for mana unless it was the same forest untapped and tapped. Each copy of the same (textual) ability on a different card is considered a different ability. Which is intuitively different from countering spells based on name. Activated abilities don't have names.
If you really want to clean this up, you're better off removing the counter trigger and just use the Damping Matrix text of "abilities of type X can't be played." And why cap things at 3? Damping Matrix caps many combo pieces starting at 0 and the game doesn't break. Something like this would be the proper anti-combo sledgehammer:
Singularity Device - Artifact 3
Spells with the same name as a spell previously cast this turn cannot be cast.
Non-mana activated abilities cannot be activated more than once per turn.
Whenever another non-mana triggered ability triggers, counter it unless it is the first time that ability has triggered.
The wording makes me vomit a bit and wonder why you don't just play Damping Matrix and Null Rod (which solve 99% of the stupid infinite combos) but it would do the trick.
Seriously, just play Null Rod. They already printed the cards you asked for, 13 years ago.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
End the turn. (Exile all spells and abilities on the stack, including this card. The player whose turn it is discards down to his or her maximum hand size. Damage wears off, and "this turn" and "until end of turn" effects end.)
That's not the problem. The problem is that there's no way to effectively trigger things like "if this spell or ability goes on the stack more than 3 times". What exactly is considered uniqueness? Lets say I have a Frozen Shade and want to use it 3 times, but I also have a clone that I want to use 3 times. Does that count as 3 or 6 times? What if the same shade leaves play and I recast it? What if it's an ability like Lifeforce that I use 3 times, but then I slight of mind the ability to change the color? If I activate it again, is it a new ability?
Also, even if it could trigger properly, it would be recursive. It would try to counter its own ability that triggered to counter other abilities.
You're looking at Word of Command levels of confusing. Sorry, find a different sledge hammer to address combos.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Oh wait, looks like they covered that one already. I'm good for now, thanks!
Sure, but it's still a three card combo: Turnabout, the red land, and Mikokoro. Actually assembling those exact three cards is not easy to setup. Just how many Expedition maps do you have anyway? In contrast, a single intuition for Mindslaver, Life from the Loam, and Academy Ruins will setup a Mindslaver lock. My point is not about the mana required for the combo but just the mere search.
I mean, if you want 3 card combos that end the game, how about Devoted Druid + Experiment Kraj + Immaculate Magristrate? I've done that in my Kraj deck and it's three cards including the general and only requires 6 mana to pull off. Plus it's pieces are green creatures, very easy to search for.
So sorry, I'm not convinced a 3 card combo involving two legendary lands and a turnabout is enough to prove recurring instants is overpowered.
Because I wrote "instant" the first time and people thought I wrote "non-sorcery instant", so I figured people were just bad at reading. I hoped "non-sorcery" would drive home the point of "stop using sorceries as failed counter examples".
So that requires 10 lands + red land + Sphinx of Magos + Turnabout. That seems harder to assemble than 12 lands + Academy Ruins + Mindslaver, though slightly better because it ends the game right there.
I mean, that's a cool combo, but it doesn't strike me like it's so broken it couldn't see print. EDH has much worse three card, 11 mana combos already in it.
Just to be clear, what's the most broken thing someone could do with a land that read:
R,T: Put target non-sorcery instant in your graveyard on top of your library.
And using at most 13 mana (including the land), because that's how much you need to Mind Slaver lock someone with Academy Ruins. If you can come up with something significantly more broken for the same mana, or as broken for much less mana, then I'll recant. But pending counter-examples, I stand by the ability being balanced.
What exactly would a blue/red deck do that could put instants back? Okay, so worst case you spend RT to put Cryptic Command on top of your deck, then spend UUU1 to counter exactly one spell for every untap step you get. And how many players do you have in this game? This land would let you spend UUUR3 one per round of turns for a single (card) free counterspell.
That's a pretty far cry from infinite time walks.
So no, they will not print any cards intended as explicit counters to these stop gap measures. Your car doesn't have a button that makes the emergency break non-functional for a reason.
This still isn't a printable card as written though. It works within the rules, but the two triggers are fundamentally different in a way that's very unintuitive to new players. WotC doesn't like printing cards that people naturally "get wrong" at first glance.
The difference is that the first trigger counts spells by name while the second counts abilities from a single source. Forget for a moment that mana abilities can't be countered. If they could, this thing wouldn't try to copy the fourth time you tapped a forest for mana unless it was the same forest untapped and tapped. Each copy of the same (textual) ability on a different card is considered a different ability. Which is intuitively different from countering spells based on name. Activated abilities don't have names.
If you really want to clean this up, you're better off removing the counter trigger and just use the Damping Matrix text of "abilities of type X can't be played." And why cap things at 3? Damping Matrix caps many combo pieces starting at 0 and the game doesn't break. Something like this would be the proper anti-combo sledgehammer:
Singularity Device - Artifact 3
Spells with the same name as a spell previously cast this turn cannot be cast.
Non-mana activated abilities cannot be activated more than once per turn.
Whenever another non-mana triggered ability triggers, counter it unless it is the first time that ability has triggered.
The wording makes me vomit a bit and wonder why you don't just play Damping Matrix and Null Rod (which solve 99% of the stupid infinite combos) but it would do the trick.
Seriously, just play Null Rod. They already printed the cards you asked for, 13 years ago.
You mean like this?
That's not the problem. The problem is that there's no way to effectively trigger things like "if this spell or ability goes on the stack more than 3 times". What exactly is considered uniqueness? Lets say I have a Frozen Shade and want to use it 3 times, but I also have a clone that I want to use 3 times. Does that count as 3 or 6 times? What if the same shade leaves play and I recast it? What if it's an ability like Lifeforce that I use 3 times, but then I slight of mind the ability to change the color? If I activate it again, is it a new ability?
Also, even if it could trigger properly, it would be recursive. It would try to counter its own ability that triggered to counter other abilities.
You're looking at Word of Command levels of confusing. Sorry, find a different sledge hammer to address combos.
The rules of the game cannot support this ability as printed. I'm not quite sure how it could even be fixed.