Elves are definitely the best tribe to support in pauper IMO. It's not hard to get lots of early elves so Priest can be insane.
>Ok, Ill look into the other elves, to get a theme for roasting..
Have you ever played a green deck that isn't creature heavy? It's not hard for it to be the best green removal in the cube (I think it is, but maybe Arachnus Web might be better?).
>G/x control I have played before, but it was not a pauper deck. I really like Plummet, and I am trying Leeching Bite as well.
It's not very good, I will almost definitely take it out for Ashmouth Hound. It's a variance card so I'm not too sure yet.
>I am so hoping for some positive feedback for Neonate, as I really like the card, just seems weak with no EtBF ability.
Bequeathal is good but slightly narrow - GB and GR midrange or removal heavy aggressive decks it's good in, but don't try playing it in anything else. I'm not sure if that means it's good in rotisserie?
>maybe a pass, for the time being, thanks.
Yeah, Villagers is working out well so far but Outcasts isn't amazing. Don't know yet in all honesty.
>Any thoughts on Ironsmith?
Invigorate is just a better Giant Growth IMO. It's a superior combat trick and can get in for more damage to the face - and it's mostly a combat trick. Being better than growth isn't huge, and it's hardly amazing, but I like it in my cube for now. I probably wouldn't put it in the rotisserie.
>Is the phyrexian mana card Mutagenic Growth better then?
Festerhide Boar is quite good because you can set it up pretty easily - even though it can rarely be played before, say, turn 6, but it's still good then. Not insane, not even close. Gorehorn Minotaurs, however, is.
As good as Minotaurs, is good enough, and it is very colour friendly.
Can't think of anything but I'll let you know. As for the returning forests, bouncelands might be enough, Quirion Ranger is another option. Priest of Titania is siiiick with Ranger so maybe try that out?
Oh well done Rubin8or, I thought Quiron Ranger was a rare cause of the FNM foil version. That it is a common, and a one drop in green, awesome sawse. Priest of Titania might get in there, Ill have to look into the viability of lords, and similar effects, Titania is same CC as Overgrown Battlement, which is a superior card with the 0/4 body, but for Roasting perhaps an elf theme is doable, Ill have to look into the other common-rarity Elves, to see if there is any that combo with Titania, looks like a poor-man's Rofellos! But I run Devoted Druid over Titania, mostly cause it can be played in large powered Cubes.
I went over your list, and there where a few card choices that I have had no experience playing. How is Prey Upon? (unrelated I cant wait to use an untap ability on the fighting werewolf, so I can say in a CapCom voice, "Round One, Fight. Round Two, Fight. Kay-Oh!!") I am liking the alternate removal in green, with Plummet, etc. So maybe it is Ok in a creature heavy deck?
Bloodcrazed Neonate? How is that working out, I really want to include it in the Cube, but I have not played with or against the card even in ISD, even once, so I have no idea. But on paper it looks like it could get a hit or two in, and I *love* the artwork. A slith a common would be a nice mechanic, even with the must attack drawback.
Quick Q? about Bequethal? Does it generate advantage easily and quickly? Would you run it in a roast? If so, what kind of deck would use it ideally, archetype; strategy; and colours?
How are the Werewolves playing out, a 4/6 for G2 seems like insane value?
Invigorate, and cousins how are they for you? Snuff Out is already in, as is Daze. Though for the life of me, I cant think of any cards like Kavu Predator that like your opponent gaining life, or like Sufurous Vortex, that prevent the life-gain?
Festerhide Boar, is this as crazy good as it looks, like Juzam Djinn power-level?
Gaea's Touch would probably be pretty sweet, I had to cut that from my cube a while back.
Oh,ta, cheers Rubin8or. I totally know I am missing some great effects in pauper, as it is a completely foriegn concept to me, I have never played a pauper anything, other than the roast a couple months ago, and still did not play a game though.
Yeah Gaea's Touch is a unique ramp effect, its awesome, now I just need something that returns Forest to hand?
Please Rubin8or, if you have any suggestions? Any pet cards that are unique to your Cube/ playgroup?
Need to include Order of Lietbur, and Ebon Hand.
I think Ill try Giestflame also, as it is already in my cardboard Cube.
Wild Mongrel should be in.
Mwonvoli Acid Moss is prolly a solid inclusion also.
Festerhide Boar looks amazing, I had not seen the card until now, but a colour freindly CMC4 that is a 5/5 trample, seems solid.
Granger Guildmage needs to be included, as it is green removal.
So Im constructing a MWS-DO Pauper Cube, it is for Roasting. (Routissirie?).
It is in the deck list, if anyone is interested in the full list, though it is not organised into CMC with card tags yet, sorry, this will be done in a day or two.
But are there any build around me cards that I should include, esp looking for suggestions of cards that miss out on draft because of the limit of targets, like Trinket Mage.
That's a hard question. If I was going on the archetypes that happen in my own cube (where 3 colour decks that don't include green are a rarity that I don't bother supporting) then:
[b]Oh well, I am trying to support both edge and shard archetypes, as well as guild decks. Mono decks are really rare from my experience, and I think gold domain and five colour control might be viable for Rotisserie. I think colour combinations such as Grixis removal-control or re-animate aggression, should be viable. Esper should be have some natural synergy with aggressive artefact matters, or artefact based permission control. Oros is an aggressive creature, with a removal and disruption supported strategy. America, has a strong tempo archetype. Greenless gold is control strategy with mana-facts, and vanilla lands. Green-Gold domain, has a range both ramp, and broad spectrum of CA.[/b]
So if anything can be taken from that, it's that allied decks mind having signets the least, two even prefer them. But if you can find a way of running all Karoos and no signets, all the better.
[b]Well tbh, I do not want to run ten Karoo and zero Signets. I like the five/ five split, both cycles have their own pros and cons. And I think that the Signets bias tempo, and the Karoos bias CA. So allied guilds getting a bias towards aggressive, and enemy guilds getting a bias towards control. And running ten Karoo, where there is not much mana denial, has less interaction than the Signets have with the Cube.[/b]
It's more complicated, but I think that all the evidence about tri-colour decks points to signets as allied and karoos as enemies.
The other possibility is just to screw the balance and just give each colour what's best for it. Maybe leaving the balance of 5 karoos and 5 signets in total:
So, I'd lean towards this if balance is not a huge issue:
[b]You may be right with the wild-card system, but I will stick to the cycles until I get a trial, But I will definitely be thinking of the wild-card as the next group of change with the land and artifacts. But gold will work itself out later.[/b]
Is Eel Umbra still in? That'd be the best cut, IMO.
[b]Well I tried to explain that I was quite a proponent for Eel Umbra Inclusion, it is a rare combat trick for blue, as well as pro-active removal prevention. Eel Umbra will prolly stay in the Cube until it stops getting picked. Would also like to include Vines of Velis Vey, as a blue combat trick.[/b]
Vines of Vastwood is great but not just cause of the removal buff, it's a combat buff too and can eat their creatures and get damage to the dome - though of course you already knew that. I don't think that either Withstand Death or Avoid Fate are playable myself. They're unique effects, but they aren't particularly good effects and most of the time decks will be both more consistent and explosive if those cards were just replaced with creatures.
[c]Green has the buff to survive soft removal, but Avoid Fate counters a lot black and white removal spells, it also counters Disenchant effects, giving green its unique counter-spell. Withstand Death, when used to counter removal during the combat step, generates CA, by negating the removal, that was probably being used to try to convert the game-state.
Those token providers are interesting, but only the ones in the cube are really powerful enough in my opinion. Wall of Kelp seems okay, but awfully blue intensive and not necessarily better than something like Kraken Hatchling - it doesn't go with normal token strategies because the tokens are but 1/1s.
[b]Wall of Kelp is really expensive and fragile, but is I think for the control mirror match, as well as combo with creatures as a resource. Unique effect with mono blue. Also it only makes 0/1 Defenders, not even proper tokens for zerg rushes.
Kraken Hatchling has the highest toughness for a CMC1 creature without defender. Works well with equipment.[/b]
Stonybrook Schoolmaster has always looked interesting to me - and I'd include it if it had three toughness. As it is though, it will be blocked by pretty much every non-utility creature in the game and come out at best even - there are few beaters with only 1 power. Even as-is, it looks like a very good attacker if they have no blockers, but that's not something I'm looking for in white. The possibilities with equipment/auras are definitely there (whether they let it tap to do something or just beef him up) but that seems really janky and inconsistent. I'd rather Sunspear Shikari to fill that role.
[b]Stonybook Schoolmaster combos with two of the other token generators, Sprout Swarm; and Selesnya Evangel; both use the tapping to increase the advantage. Fire Whip; and Viridian Longbow; also combo well. So there is a couple of alternate strategy for Rotisserie.[/b]
Evangel is actually a beating, but not as much as Armadillo Cloak or
Pridemage. I only play 2 of each guild so it doesn't interest me, but it might make it into other cubes, like yours. I'm torn to whether I'd play it over Pale Recluse (that's actually a really good card) but I might consider it, if I were you.
[b]Well I have increased the guilds, and Selesnya now has all four you listed, how ever it is still such a deep guild, I am running Thrill of Hunt, in green.[/c]
Icatian Crier was total jank here, sadly. It never becomes aggressive, and is much too fragile/unreliable/bad to be a decent creature in control. Test it if you want to, but it's worse than it looks.
[b]Well it is just to add redundancy to the token theme, the madness archetype in white is very poor, it is also very expensive and mana intensive.[/b]
Empty the Warrens is an ok card at best really. It changes how you play too much for you to really get advantage out of it, and when it comes down to it, getting 6 1/1 tokens on turn 7 isn't that spectacular anyway (and that's it working well). It allows for some blowout plays, though.
[b]Well some cards work very well with the storm mechanic, and getting a storm count of three, on turn three is okay.[/b]
Night Soil is another possible playable.
I'd suggest cutting Sylvan Ranger, for Shell-Dweller, it's a terrible card.
Night Soil is a card I was considering for hosing graveyard, but since it only targets half of the strategies it seemed a poor choice for graveyard hose, and seemed slow and conditional for token generation, Sprout Swarm I have seen make ten or twenty tokens, Night soil will have a hard time of activating more than twice. Though I might put it in to support Relic of Progentius; Nihil Spellbomb; and Bojuka Bog; in mass GY disruption, the creature type is good too.
Beckon Apparitions; though has very poor effect, it fills the niche by being cheap enough to keep the mana open to foil a GY recursion, or at worst to make a instant flying trick, to surprise trade with pegasus and birds.
Sylvan Ranger; Oh no no no, I really like the green land search elves, and that it is CMC2 creates so much advantage compared to Civic Wayfinder. Sylvan Ranger creates the same CA as Civic Wayfinder but a turn earlier in tempo. The extra land supports retrace, and landfall, and looting archetypes.
@ Ponder: Sure, I see where you're going. I was talking in terms of objective mana fixing power. I still think that you should probably add the allied karoos because fixing is such a rarity, but if that can't work out that's fine. Unstable Mutation is, in my opinion, the best blue aura of that kind, but it only really works if blue aggro works (same with the umbra, though). Oh, and Withstand Death is actually a terrible card.
Rubin8or, would you you think that the combination of 1) allied Signets and enemy Karoo, or 2) enemy Signets and allied Karoo, is better?
I would have thought that offering the Signets to the allied pairing, gives them a strong acceleration and fixing card, that is efficient in a lot of colour combinations.
The Izzet and Simic Karoo are good for Grixis and Bant shards respectively. Izzet is good for the control archetype counter-burn, Simic is good for the dinosaurs deck. RUG gets both the UG and UR Karoo and the GR Signet, and a Sac-Land. The Orzhov Karoo, works with the Esper permission deck, and the BW disruption deck. It maybe is the weakest, but offers CA to the control strategy, the use for the aggressive strategy is some what limited, but I think it is still a good card, for Oros and Doran wedges. RW Karoo is good for the Landfall mechanic. GB is good for the ramp strategy, and offers CA to the Golgari control strategy.
Swapping the enemy guild for the allied guild Karoo would give the UW and UB Karoo, and would be awesome for blue control, esp Esper shard. The GR and GW Karoo are good for Landfall, and stompy, and dinosaurs. The RB is okay for the control strategy. But then the enemy Signets, go against the grain of supporting allied strategies. Though the Karoo are a free card in deck construction, the Signets I think bias the allied tempo, over enemy card advantage. But losing the Signets from allied guilds would hurt the natural bias towards allied decks too much I think?
UW and UB have natural synergy with pure control cards, as does Esper. RB and Grixis control have disruption and removal oriented control. GW has good mid-range control strategy with a creature oriented meta. And GR has a good direct damage and artefact disruption focused control. The Signets offer all five of the allied guilds, in most of the strategies from true aggressive to pure control and roles, a strong mana fixing and ramp strategy, with great relative tempo, and neutral CA.
If the complete cycles where run, Tri-colour decks would have access to on-colour three Signets, three Karoo, and one or two Borderposts, and two or three Tri-Lands, one to four Panoramas, That is up to fifteen cards right there!! It is just way to much with over fifteen green cards, and twenty artefacts. If I included all cycles it would be over eighty mana fixing cards, this gives to many to other colours other than green. This colour combinations still have access to a couple of lands, the Signets if allied, the mana-facts. And green is still meant to have a clearly defined role for fixing, and acceleration, otherwise it is outnumbered, and outclassed. At eighty cards a Rotisserie draft will give each player on average ten mana fixing cards. Currently it is around six fixing cards each, which is still quite a high number.
But I want to include both Karoos and Signets, though I do not want twenty of them, I think ten is enough.
Unstable Mutation is really good for the aggressive blue deck, what type of card would you recommend to swap it in for? I like auras, I think they offer a strong dynamic to the game, though I find most are outclassed by modern equipment.
Withstand Death looked okay, I Cube with Avoid Fate; and Vines of Vastwood; I think that as a counter to soft removal, and combat, that a buff like Mutagenic Growth is stronger, because it offers increased effect of damage, but that Withstand Death was actually a counter for the hard removal that black has, that would never be a dead card. I do not think Withstand Death is as good as Avoid Fate; Vines of Vastwood; in countering hard removal, and it is the same casting cost as those two, and there is three another (G) buffs. So I guess there is already some redundancy in that CC, but I think it is okay, and I like the card a lot.
I would like to include Thallid Shell-Dweller but I not sure of what to cut for it? Deathspore Thallid I think is too weak even for Rotisserie, just to over-costed and weak of a body.
Oh yeah. I cut the Onslaught cycling lands, to cut down on my pool. I haven't been reviewing my list in recent times, so forgive my forgetfulness. In any case, clearly we have two differing opinions on the sac/storm/tinglands, so I think it's best if we agree to disagree for now. As I always say, I'm usually arguing against cards I've never tried before, so maybe I'm wrong.
I'll give you that Eel Umbra and Psychic Purge are unique effects for blue, which is more than enough reason to include them. And clearly, Eel Umbra (and Spiketail Drakeling) is better for your cube than mine, since you're pushing for the blue aggro skies deck, so I'll lay off those. However, one last thing, but I think that using the "discard" argument to support Psychic Purge is a bit weak. In black, I can count three discard spells - Raven's Crime, Hymn to Tourach, Augur of Skulls. Even if there are a few that I've missed, that is really rare. And you're considering a situation where:
1) Your opponent is playing black (again, sorry if I miss some discard in other colors)
2) Your opponent is playing that discard spell
3) When your opponent does play that discard spell, you have Psychic Purge in your hand.
In any case, I'm not arguing that Psychic Purge is not a worthy inclusion. I'm saying, it's only a worthy inclusion off the back of its ping ability.
Currently, I have a high saturation of CMC1-3 creatures there are less than 70 spells with a CMC4 or higher. The Spiketails where included as part of the CS suite, that they also have flying is a benefit, and I think Skies.dec is okay with cheap equipment, but idk if I have a high saturation of equipment, maybe I could cut a couple?
Eel Umbra, I do not know if it has many great targets in blue, but there are still a couple of big flying creatures.
There are 11 discard spells in black, in the current incarnation, the list in the tread is 90 cards out of date, I increased the size to 450, to accommodate some archetypes, like hand disruption. In Rotisserie, I think, hand disruption is a viable archetype. And I like to have foils for common archetypes, and strategies. Psychic Purge is not dead against other colours or strategies, but tbh I think pauper has less bomb x/1 creatures. It does deal with mana-elves on turn one though, I would think that is its strongest application. Otherwise Piracy Charm is superior for x/1 removal, as it is modal. But would like to include as much blue; white; green; direct damage as possible, but I am not 100% sold on Hornet Sting yet, but might just get in there cause it can do the job?
Thank you Lanxal for spotting Faceless Butcher, yeah I might have a couple of other typos. I had Sindbad in before cause I thought it was common.
Also I would axe, the Fencer Clique because Wayward Soul has more power, Idk about the other cut? too hard to cut either Alpha card. I might try to find room for Wayward Soul, in my Cube thanks.
Depending on what you're looking for, Confound is a better card IMO. Sure, it doesn't provide any aggressive bonus, but it does hose pump and such which Eel Umbra doesn't. The problem we found with Eel Umbra is that it was very rare that you got both the combat trick and the pump/protection. It only happened when +1/+1 was enough to save a guy and that wasn't really often enough. Plus, in blue the creatures you want to save most are your utility creatures and they don't gain much from the pump. Also, +1/+1 is very unlikely to save them from removal, so in all Eel Umbra was too much a Withstand Death. Confound, on the other hand, is exactly what you want to play to save Merfolk Looter or Waterfront Bouncer, and its arguably better on evasive dudes too.
I'm going to go against the grain and say this: neither is really worth cube space. The only reason that I'm playing cycling lands are as kind of placeholders is as placeholders for actually good lands that will hopefully be printed sometime in the future. Still, I'll probably cut some for cards I've excluded, like Shimmering Grotto, I've just not wanted to create a colour imbalance. They really have little draft value, but the same is true for the ting lands - it's just a very rare deck that wants them very much more than a basic land because needing ramp and one-time fixing (on the same turn, too) at the cost of a land is hardly common.
The cycling lands are played more often than the ting lands, though they are weaker than ting lands in the right decks.
Importantly though, you're not playing these lands in the place of cycling lands, but the on-colour karoos. Sure, in theory karoos have a drawback of being blown up to lose you a ton of tempo, but this is not nearly as important as their benefits. There's not really any way to prove it apart from playing the cube, but I assure you the Karoos are MUCH better.
Confound does look awesome, as it counters buffs and Auras, that Apostate Blessing does not, I definitely will have to find room for Confound, that it is conditional counter does not matter much, it is easy to play, has cantrip, and as you say is a great mid combat trick, to counter their conversion and swingy plays. Thanks for recommending Confound, Rubin8or.
Yeah I will agree that the ideal play of Eel Umbra never happens, the buff is too small to make a difference with most soft removal, and is only a slight variance within combat. But it is an aura, (I want to find an excuse for Auramancer to get into the Cube) a rare blue buff (red has one, and colourless has one), and the pro-active save vs spot removal.
Withstand Death looks okay for saving the finishers, and bombs, as green does not have much variance of combat tricks.
Well I wont disagree that Cycling lands are the types of cards that make the MD40, but it is more about, the types of land cycles that I can fit into the Cube. But I think that in Rotisserie, it gives another option for the ramp deck, to contrast the tempo and CA strategies. And I think ramp makes a good healthy balance between aggressive and control, where as mid-range imo is another control strategy, that has too easy of a time beating aggressive decks. They are the only land cycle that supports the wedge colours. And I think they are nearly as popular as shard colours.
Well yes, the allied guild Karoos are omitted, and the enemy guild Signets. And the Borderposts, and Dual-Land Cycling creatures, are not complete cycles either. This is to reduce the amount of two colour fixing redundancy, and the Ting-Lands, I see as the opposite pairing of the Panoramas. Wedge vs Shard. Including the conventional suite of fixing cycles I would be including over 15 more two colour fixing, mostly for allied colours, and there should be a natural bias towards these decks because of the preference for allied gold effects, compared to enemy effects.
The enemy Karoos work well in some of the ramp strategies, they work well for the control strategy, and they also interact with the couple of Landfall cards. I dont like including all ten of them though, with only 5, they become a rarity. The Signets are the same, and they also dilute greens role of fixing and acceleration, though the signets are much easier to disrupt than Karoos.
Yeah I definitely run Shimmering Grotto, it is not that strong of an effect, but aggressive strategies like casting their CD casting cost spells, and are okay with that costing a mana to do that. That it is not aligned to a colour combination makes it easier to fit in, because it is helping the colour combinations that need it the most.
Well my main reason for excluding both the allied and enemy guild cycle of Karoos is exactly that, they are very powerful, they dominate to much of the dual colour fixing. Same with Signets. Want to limit them both. It is mostly the lack of mana denial which to offset the Karoos. In the current MTGS pauper rotisserie draft, there are multiple Karroos left, and there is only like 30 cards, that means there is too much of them, if you can pick them up as card 40+, cards that are "the best" fixing should be highly sought after, valuable, and not of an such abundance that you can pick them up as the last couple of cards.
Sure, that's one of the disadvantages of the Karoos, and when it happens it can be brutal. In any case, I'm not trying to argue Karoos are good, I'm trying to argue that this:
Karoos are great, I run the enemy guild cycle. I would argue for then inclusion in pauper Cube, they are the best dual-land that pauper has.
isn't true, and I don't believe it is. If you use the stormland to ramp, you are suffering a lose, because you lose a land. If you don't use the stormland to ramp, you still suffer lose, because it ETBT. Any way you slice it, they lead to a lose of some kind for a marginally and temporary boost. Karoos at least require you opponent to also lose a card in the exchange. These don't.
By disruption, I mean when a Karoo is destroyed or bounced, that you have lost tempo when you returned a land to hand when the Karoo EtBF. Because a Sac-Land does not cost a land to hand as a cost of playing, if it is disrupted, it is the same as any other land getting disrupted. So there is not the same risk involved between playing a Sac-Land (or Depletion) and a Karoo.
When not disrupted, the Karoo offer an great advantage of mana at the cost of minimal loss of tempo, but do not offer the same ramp as the Sac-Lands or Depletion Lands.
I really think that Sac-Lands and Karoo are both great, but they do different things, that is all.
Maybe not accelerate in the traditional sense, but they do lead to an increase in mana. A Karoo + a land = 3 mana. 2 normal lands = 2 mana. It may not be a huge point, but it is an advantage of the Karoo.
Yes, they provide two mana from one resource, continuously.
I don't find the advantage you can gain from the temporary advantage worth it in the long run because you still lose a land. For instance, say you use Mysteries of the Deep T3 using Ancient Spring and Saprazzan Skerry. Awesome, you drew 3 cards. Not as awesome, now you have 2 lands, one of which will become worthless with another tap. Landing a curve-topping creature is a bit more worth it, but still, overall I don't believe they are worth it most of the time.
The ramp, and fixing are not mandatory from the Sac-Lands, they work like a conventional mana source when needed. It is just two more options that they give.
If you are using ramp cards to turn out a CMC5 card on turn three it is to play a threat, using it to gain CA is for control, and is done later in the game, the early game is about applying pressure, and a spell that only draws cards is not a threat.
An ideal card would be something like Skyreach Manta; or another evasive creature. or Pyrotechnics; to sweep an entire board; Using it to kick a Citanul Woodreaders; or Dismantling Blow, will offset the lost card. Sac-Lands also give you one more mana for finshers like Fireball. Using them to play a card like flashing in a Spire Monitor, to get a free kill, or to CS something that would destroy multiple resources, is a way to offset the loss of CA inherent in the card, with a play that generates CA.
The Depletion Lands work with Kor Skyfisher; Dream Stalker; Tilling Treefolk; Ravnica Karoos; so there is a few ways to get more value out of them.
I can say the same for the stormlands. /shrugs.
Well I am including them to support ramp and tempo strategies. And they fix mana for the wedge cycle. The Onslaught Cycling-Lands are not mana fixing, and all the lands I Cube are to fix mana, ramp, or have an EtBF effect.
Over-coming land floods are compensated for with Retrace, looters, shapeshifters, atm. The type of cards that can be used to get rid of multiple unwanted resources. I agree though there could be more of this, to help aggressive strategies cope with land floods. Landfall, and land-sacrifice as a resource, maybe need some cards?
They are a relevant card the same number of times cycling lands cycle. I wouldn't be sad with cutting cycling lands, but I had the room, so I decided to keep them to smooth out decks.
But your Cube list does not have them listed? I am confused sorry.
And the Onslaught Cycling-Lands and the Sac-Lands, while statistically as useful to you. For me they are to support tempo at the cost of CA. And they offer support to the wedge aligned decks. They offer fixing for four colour combinations, and four and five colour decks. They have many interactions with other Cube cards, and strategies. They help the ramp strategy.
So is 10 mana over a few wasted turns to create removal bait (and assuming removal isn't plentiful in Pauper is not the right move). /shrugs.
You misunderstood, I said that that is its weakness, to soft-removal.
Well different colours have different types of removal, white mostly has auras, and combat tricks; blue has CS, and bounce; black has a good hard removal suite, and efficient soft removal; red has soft removal that usually trades power for reach; green has mostly combat tricks, and very little conditional removal.
So versus a deck that does not have a high concentration of cheap soft counters, then it is a one mana blue creature that can become a significant threat. I also have some defensive equipment for fragile creatures, and against the soft removal decks.
I've tried it, and trust it, it does not worth like you imagine it would. But, go ahead and try it; better get experience than listen to my nonsense.
Well I run them both in my IRL Cube for years, and never been disappointed with Spiketail Hatchling; Spiketail Drakeling is fine for heavy blue decks, they apply pressure, and are proactive plays.
With a high concentration of equipment in Cube, an aggressive blue deck that relies on tempo rather than CA, I find can utilize a large number of cheap evasive creatures, the small bodies are off-set by the quality of the equipment they are using.
Rarely relevant. You can't evaluate a card based on that one time it's good.
At worst it is direct damage in blue, there is no spell run in a conventional pauper Cube that this is worse than? It is mainly there to kill ancillary creatures, often they only have one toughness.
And hand disruption is a very common effect in black. I have colour hose cards, graveyard hose cards. Psychic Purge; and Basking Rootwaller; were the only cards beside Guerrilla Tactics; that hose hand disruption. That is not many, and even at worst Psychic Purge is used to take out tricky little creatures for one blue mana, it it a pretty rare effect.
My argument here is a bit weaker without a direct example, but I'll say it anyway: you're listing reasons why these cards are good, but that's not the point. Some cards are just better. Good cards get cut all the time because there's not enough room. For example, Eel Umbra is a fair card and good combat trick, but in terms of the cardpool that blue has, it's not good enough to warrant inclusion. You need to consider the cards in relation to all the other cards that could be in its place. And maybe you are, in which case I apologise for assuming you don't.
Eel Umbra, is a combat trick in blue; it is also a way for blue to apply proactive pressure with an aggressive creature and give it a buff; it saves a creature from removal at instant speed; it also proactively prevents an ancillary creature from being destroyed; or hardens a defensive creature for combat;
perhaps you can offer a suggestion for a similar effect?
Well I am open to considering cards that take the place of poor choices, but to be honest I really like the Sac-Lands, and would not consider a cycle of mono coloured lands in place of a cycle of tri-colour lands. I would consider using the Onslaught Cycling lands, to help certain colour strategies, but I only run two mono coloured lands, and you have not said that the Onslaught lands are better than the mono aligned lands currently run.
And I appreciated your suggestion of cards to cut for Condescend and Memory Lapse, but I had already increased the size of the Cube, and included them. The OP of the current list has them.
Agree. I've actually found that to have classic control (like, control without aggressive creatures) to be able to really complete, you need to have quite a few control-specific cards.
Well, yes the classic areas of control,
Mana Denial; yes lacking aggressively costed, and recursive mana denial cards. lacking the mass effect cards like Amageddon; and Winter Orb; I think that maybe some redundancy is needed, but imho most redundant cards are over-costed and weak in effect. Stone Rain; Icefall; Sinkhole; are maybe the cheapest?
Counter-Spell; has some okay cards, here is okay imo. though MUC needs a lot of highly defensive creatures, and some strong early blockers. Also the lack of Flash creatures and abilities that act as mana sinks, make a lot of time mana kept open for CS, becomes an unused resource. And CS themselves are based on tempo and attrition with very little inherent CA.
Disruption; Hymn to Tourach; and Raven's Crime; supported by a lot of redundancy, though it is all based on attrition, and tempo. I think Ravenous Rats; Rotting Rats; Chittering Rats; and Liliana's Specter, and Okiba-Gang Shinobi; are maybe the the creatures?
Aggressive Control; blue needs lots of CMC1-2 threats, to apply pressure, while keeping CS as back up, evasion; CA; level-up; inherent CS; are all needed in high density. and like pure-control needs some early game creatures that can interact and block in combat, because the threats themselves apply less pressure than other colours. Cards that are not colour intensive help aggressive-control use other colours for support, esp with aggressive creatures, and powerful individual threats.
Card Drawing; The lack of efficient CA hinders this strategy. Deep Analysis; and Foresee; are good, and cantrip creatures like Mulldrifter; Sea Gate Oracle; Thalakos Scout; all provide useful creatures with cantrip. There are a lot of sifting cards like Ponder; and Halimar Depths; but they have not the advantage of draw. Other CA engines are slow Arcane Spyglass; or take other resources Cephalid Scout. Mostly looting is the closest thing to direct CA.
Removal Control; reactive cards that offer very little advantage in CA, though aggressively costed they can deal with a range of threats. There is a relatively strong suite of DD and removal.
Pillow; conventional pauper, imo does not use many of the better control cards, favoring the aggressive variant in place of. Thornweald Archer; is run over Deadly Recluse; and Lone Missionary; is run over Temple Acoltye; in conventional pauper. Though I think there are some decent cards which fit the archetype as there are very little mass removal spells of mana denial or creatures, and inherent strategy of control is okay against disruption.
In normal cubes, that'd pretty much be mass removal in every colour but blue and green, but we've got a pretty bad lack of that. To fill that role in white, I'd say that Temple Acolyte is one of the best cards to do so. Lone Missionary is of course more widely playable but definitely worse in control, while things like Faiths Fetters and Guardian of the Guildpact are so good they can be run in aggro.
White control has a lot of one sided Fog effects like Safe Passage; and Pollen Remedy; it does have some proactive life gain, and defensive creatures, though it does not have any mana denial. It also has some good removal that offer CA.
Blue; has CS, and some cantrip creatures, though it lacks a lot of creature interaction, and has very little card draw, and CA though spells. Blue does have the big evasive creatures. but inefficient card draw.
Black; Has removal, disruption, and does well with control, have strong high end creatures, and the rare mass removal spells.
Red; has DD, great removal, good 187 creaures, and creatures with powerful bodies, though it is lacking the mana denial strategy. The sweep cards also only do one damage.
Green; has very few control cards, relying on tempo, and mana acceleration. Though it has a concentration of Naturalize effects, green creature removal is on parity with blue.
Artefact; is solely based on mana acceleration; and equipment; it offers only a v few control cards. Tumble Magnet; Serrated Arrows; though there are some purely defensive creatures that help all control decks by being colourless.
Gold; personally my gold section is v small and is mostly creatures. There are a few gold removal spell, or disruption, and CS, offering inherent CA, or significant tempo advantage. But my section has only two or three cards per guild.
Land; Karoo and some EtBF lands have control applications, but mostly bias aggressive. also personally in my Cube I support ramp cards, eight currently, to compliment aggressive.
I don't think that Soul Warden is ever playable myself. Suture Priest seems a good deal better, but still not good enough IMO because it's neither very good in aggressive decks or control decks because it has split its abilities in a way that means it doesn't fit the main aim of either.
Temple Acolyte; Lone Missionary; Pride Guardian; Aven Riftwatcher; all strong life gain effects, but Soul Warden interacts with token generation, that was my main reason for including it with the cards that also offer good bodies.
There are a few other decent to good defensive creatures - Wall of Glare is popular (though I personally dislike it), Totem-Guide Hartebeest (as it almost always fetches removal), Halimar Wavewatch, Sea Gate Oracle are some. None of these actually gain you life - they don't have to because they stop you losing life. Lifestaff and Tendrils are very solid cards and maybe I should put Gladehart back in. Still, the lifegain is hardly necessary.
Totem Harte-Beast; is in already, but I have included offensive enchantments, Spider; Snake; Hyena; Eel Umbra; Rancor; Armadillo Cloak; no shortage of offensive enchantments either. I think Hobble; or Faith's Fetters are the control cards of choice to pair with the synergy of Totem Hartebeest.
Halimar Wavewatch; is in already, and is okay, at worst draws out soft removal, and does not do well against black, but otherwise a strong control finisher. Sea Gate Oracle; is already in, the Sleight of Hand and three defense, give strong CA.
Sylvok Lifestaff; I think it is one of the better cards in Pauper.
Tendrils of Corruption; Mostly for the black matters archetype, though anything doing three or more damage makes this a strong effect. MBC has to get some love, but tbh, Im unsure of which other back matters cards make are good enough to include?
Grazing Gladehart, is the forth best Landfall card I could find, and I would really like to include as an archetype, and green has the obvious natural synergy with ramp, land search, Tilling Treefolk; and a lot of shamans and druids that get land OtBF or into hand.
I just came up with the name when I was making the post, because they are mainly used in Pauper Storm decks.
[b]Okay, well the get called Invasion Sac-Lands mostly I guess[/b]
It may just be different needs, but I like the cycling lands a bunch more than the stormlands. Stormlands give you a temporary boost at the cost of the land, which I don't think is worth it most of the time. However, that depends on the deck, playstyles and the cube, so maybe in terms of your cube, stormlands are better.
[b]Either of the two types of Cycle-Lands, Onslaught Cycle-Lands; or Urza Saga Cycle-Lands does not fix mana, there only benefit is that do not become dead cards late in the game.
The Invasion Sac-Lands, each fix four colour combinations, not as well as the Panoramas, but they also ramp when needed, and help with a few card interactions. The Mercadian Masques Depletion-Lands are good ramp, but poor fixing, and dont have the option of re-use, though they have the two charges two interact with bounce.[/b]
How so? If you use the stormland to ramp temporarily, you lose a land permanently. If you use the Karoos to ramp permanently, you lose a land temporarily. If you don't use the stormland to ramp, then there's still the initial disruption from ETBT. I don't see how a stormland leads to less of a tempo disruption than a Ravnican Karoo.
[b]Vulnerable to disruption, through bounce, or mana denial.
Invasion Sac-Lands, is not a mandatory use, and disrupted, does not disrupt a second land, like the Karoo do.
The Karoo are good in a ramp deck, that doesnt come up against to much disruption, and the Boros Karoo fits perfectly into the Naya Landfall deck by bouncing itself to generate landfall triggers, Walking Atlas also interacts with this combo. Thinking Gaea's Touch and Qurion Ranger might make the Landfall deck stronger too.
The Karoo does not accelerate like the the Sac-Lands, and the Depletion-Lands. By turn three you can cast CMC6 spells, and using Depletion and Sac-Lands to cast ramp and card draw, can off-set those disadvantages.[/b]
Cycling lands are good whenever an extra draw is better than landing another land, which for me is usually around 5-6. That's not manaflooding at all. But again, different needs, different playstyles, different cubes.
[b]I think most cards are CMC1-3, so some aggressive decks do not really need an excess of land though they should be able to use these cards with Undertaker; and Looter en-Dal; to generate the same advantage. And losing the second best cycle of mana fixing, for mono-coloured land doesnt support tri-colour decks as much as I would like.[/b]
I agree that cycling lands don't do much by themselves, and drafting them in place of a 'real' card can often seem not worth it, but they are a good addition to any deck, and usually go in the last few picks anyway, when pickings become slim.
[b]It is not drafting the card at all, it is replacing mana fixing, and ramp with a mono colored land that its advantage is that it helps insure against flooding, does not have a strong enough effect to include in the pool at this size. Maybe as part of a broken cycle? But Im pretty happy with my land.[/b]
Really? Because I would be absolutely fine putting Barren Moor in any deck I play. It has a minimal effect
[b]It is about putting it in the pool.[/b]
I've always been managing a fairly large cube, so I wouldn't be much help comparing larger cubes to smaller cubes. I would visit Adam's Pauper Cube blog, which is a tight 360 list, for tips.
[b]I have increased the list to 405, and am thinking of maybe adding 45 at another time, there are still a couple of niche cards that would be good to include like Empty the Warrens, and some Unearth cards.[/b]
Rubin's a proponent of LD in red. He's talk about it in the past. Check the previous few pages.
[b]I read the complete thread, and the other pauper threads.[/b]
Yeah, the top-game is dominated by green and little else. It's one of the bummers of Pauper.
[b]Well there is Ruhk Egg, and some elementals and giants, but nothing that has Flying, and a big body in red. It should be okay paired with blue or white for evasion.
And there are a few high cost cards that I would include if it did not give mid-range too much dominance, that will go in if the Cube gets an up-size.[/b]
I run the very best Disenchant effects and little else, such as Nantuko Vigilante and Mold Shambler. I would suggest that you make room for them, because answers are so important in fashioning an effective draft environment. Also, since you want to make a Rotisserie cube, Disenchant effects are even more important, since there are a few important artifacts and enchantments that are troublesome and allowing everyone answers to them is just so vital.
[b]I have to disagree that you run the most focused Disenchant effects, there are many high tier cards that you are not playing, you also focus highly only CA with high CC. I run 25 Disenchants. If I increase the Cube to 450, I could fit another 5 or so Disenchant effects.I dont know if Phyrexian Gremlins makes it in, but otherwise black relies on a secondary colour for Disenchant effect.
Have put them in the update in my Pauper Cube thread.
Skywatcher Adept
>4 power flyers are serious business in the Cube.
Flying Men
>Swap for Zephyr Sprite, for the interaction with Spellstutter Sprite
Kraken Hatchling
>Great defensive card for blue.
Vedalken Certarch
>Only card with the Icy Manipulator ability.
Dream Stalker
>High defense, and recurs EtBF effects, replay land.
Spiketail Drakeling
>Proactive CS.
Thornwind Faeries
>Blue needs a ping!
Psychic Purge
>Hoses discard in Pauper.
Eel Umbra
>Combat trick that gives resilience to threats.
[/cards]
It doesn't matter that some of them are 'good' and should stay; Condescend and Memory Lapse want to be in more and it's always important to support the blue control deck.
[b]both are in the updated list, in the Cube List page.[/b]
Check the Cube Evaluation thread for help on the meagre pickings for Green CMC4+.
[b]Maybe Rootgrapple, but it is pretty bad.[/b]
He's good for the control deck, I'll give you that (though not necessarily the best). However, it's not necessarily good by itself as a singleton addition; if I were to add it, it would need to be because I felt that the control deck required some help, and I don't have enough experience yet with my cube to know if that's true or not yet. So I'm not really considering it yet.
[b]Well both Temple Acolyte and Lone Missionary are in the current 405 list, because there needs to be some aggressively costed cards that play well against early game and there is not much good life gain in Pauper, that I could find anyway? what would you consider "the best"? Already have Sylvok Lifestaff; Grazing Gladehart; Tendrils of Corruption;
Suture Priest; and Soul Warden; may be okay if there was room?[/b]
Regarding above: Do you allow multiple copies of cards (Effigy), snow lands (Zombies) or uncommons? (Sindbad)
An artifact themed cube is pretty cool! Good luck with it!
Oh Sindbad has never had a common printing, my mistake, Ill replace it with another card, maybe Thalakos Seer? people like shadow, and cantrip. No, I was not meaning to include cards that had never been common, thanks for pointing that out.
Blazing Effigy is a good card vs aggressive match-ups, it wears equipment well, and is a creature for recursion.
I think all lands will be Snow, that makes a few cards better, Withering Wisps instead of Pestilence, Rime Skeleton, and also makes Gangrenous Zombies a decent card, because a two damage sweep for CMC3 is rare enough that waiting a turn is a drawback that just has to be put up with, and black is a good colour for recursion and re-animate.
No extra cards or errata, Death Spark means graveyard order is a pain in the butt, otherwise no, no special rules other than Snow Lands.
Overall I'd say that list is solid. I don't really like the stormlands (Ancient Spring & co.); I think they could be cut for the cycling lands (Barren Moor) without trouble.
Stormland? I hadn't heard the name before, ty, idk what to call the cycle.
Well with the Storm-lands they do several things, where the cycling lands, either cycle do very little for anything other than aggressive strategies. Storm-lands, can ramp, without the drawback of the disruption of tempo from Ravnica Karoos, and they each fix four colour combinations, in one card, to the Karoos one. I value these as highly as Panoramas, because of the ramp effect, in addition to being tri-colour lands. The one off use of the card, is fine, because it can be used as well as any other land once it is active if you are mana short.
I was thinking of Tilling Treefolk or similar card, to get additional value out of them, but honestly I think they are the best ramp lands, and fine colour fixing. Im not sure if the most aggressive of strategies will be able to put them to the best possible use, but I think that with the current list, aggressive doesnt need help from land cards, it needs mid-range to have a strong opposition in pure-control, then there should be a good balance of strategies.
The cycling lands, dont do anything other than compensate for mana-flooding, and I dont think that should be a problem, I think any aggressive creatures, able to use mana as a resource so be able to compensate for the occasion over abundance of land. Barren Moor doesnt fix, or accelerate, or have an effect on the game-state, I included Peat Bog over Barren Moor, because I think ramp is a viable strategy in all colours, where Barren Moor only works well in hyper aggressive black strategies.
I would be interested to here you appraisal of some of the other facets of the Cubes design.
Firstly I found the 360 made the cut off in red really harsh, it gets a lot of burn, but not much else. Im not sure if I should just go to 405, to include other 5-6 cards in each primary colour?
I wanted some mana-denial in red, but it seemed to need a high amount of low costing creatures. couldnt find any big flying dragons either?
Naturalize/ Disenchant; I wanted a few more effects but unfortunately cant find the room, I didnt include Uktabi Faerie because it is so expensive compared to scavenger folk. Deglamer; Revoke Existence i thought would be good to deal with troublesome recursive cards, though I think they prolly wont come up often. Orims Thunder; Dismantling Blow would be great CA for them, but white has a couple of better Disenchant effects.
Counter-Spells like Memory Lapse I cant seem to find room to include some of the staple CS, like Memory Lapse and Condescend.
Green Non-creature spells dont seem to exist after CMC3? What gives with this? What would be the best of the worst of the high end green cards? cause the creatures are fantastic, just the NC spells are lacking high on the curve.
There are a few cards with synergy with only relatively few cards. Madness doesnt have many engines, and Landfall is lacking some creatures, sacrifice is almost non-existent, Rusted Slasher is the only card atm. Viridian Longbow only combos with Pili Pala, et al.
Am I too focused on mid-range? by including so many low casting cost creatures?
Mostly Im asking this because I want a list for Rotisserie Drafting, but wasnt sure a list of 405 would be any better or worse than a 360 list.
I really like Leeching Bite as a combat trick, maybe as much as Wildsize, or something, just because its removal, and can 3:1 pretty easy. Its so much better than the black version, as green has very little targeted removal.
I dont have any experience with either of the cards sorry, but have you thought of considering Sandstorm; and Gangrenous Zombie; as sweepers?
Magic Work Station Winston-180 http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=315755
As good as Minotaurs, is good enough, and it is very colour friendly.
Thanks.
Magic Work Station Winston-180 http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=315755
Oh well done Rubin8or, I thought Quiron Ranger was a rare cause of the FNM foil version. That it is a common, and a one drop in green, awesome sawse. Priest of Titania might get in there, Ill have to look into the viability of lords, and similar effects, Titania is same CC as Overgrown Battlement, which is a superior card with the 0/4 body, but for Roasting perhaps an elf theme is doable, Ill have to look into the other common-rarity Elves, to see if there is any that combo with Titania, looks like a poor-man's Rofellos! But I run Devoted Druid over Titania, mostly cause it can be played in large powered Cubes.
I went over your list, and there where a few card choices that I have had no experience playing. How is Prey Upon? (unrelated I cant wait to use an untap ability on the fighting werewolf, so I can say in a CapCom voice, "Round One, Fight. Round Two, Fight. Kay-Oh!!") I am liking the alternate removal in green, with Plummet, etc. So maybe it is Ok in a creature heavy deck?
Bloodcrazed Neonate? How is that working out, I really want to include it in the Cube, but I have not played with or against the card even in ISD, even once, so I have no idea. But on paper it looks like it could get a hit or two in, and I *love* the artwork. A slith a common would be a nice mechanic, even with the must attack drawback.
Quick Q? about Bequethal? Does it generate advantage easily and quickly? Would you run it in a roast? If so, what kind of deck would use it ideally, archetype; strategy; and colours?
How are the Werewolves playing out, a 4/6 for G2 seems like insane value?
Invigorate, and cousins how are they for you? Snuff Out is already in, as is Daze. Though for the life of me, I cant think of any cards like Kavu Predator that like your opponent gaining life, or like Sufurous Vortex, that prevent the life-gain?
Festerhide Boar, is this as crazy good as it looks, like Juzam Djinn power-level?
Magic Work Station Winston-180 http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=315755
Oh,ta, cheers Rubin8or. I totally know I am missing some great effects in pauper, as it is a completely foriegn concept to me, I have never played a pauper anything, other than the roast a couple months ago, and still did not play a game though.
Yeah Gaea's Touch is a unique ramp effect, its awesome, now I just need something that returns Forest to hand?
Please Rubin8or, if you have any suggestions? Any pet cards that are unique to your Cube/ playgroup?
Need to include Order of Lietbur, and Ebon Hand.
I think Ill try Giestflame also, as it is already in my cardboard Cube.
Wild Mongrel should be in.
Mwonvoli Acid Moss is prolly a solid inclusion also.
Festerhide Boar looks amazing, I had not seen the card until now, but a colour freindly CMC4 that is a 5/5 trample, seems solid.
Granger Guildmage needs to be included, as it is green removal.
Magic Work Station Winston-180 http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=315755
It is in the deck list, if anyone is interested in the full list, though it is not organised into CMC with card tags yet, sorry, this will be done in a day or two.
But are there any build around me cards that I should include, esp looking for suggestions of cards that miss out on draft because of the limit of targets, like Trinket Mage.
Also looking for pet cards, and unique effects.
Magic Work Station Winston-180 http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=315755
Night Soil is a card I was considering for hosing graveyard, but since it only targets half of the strategies it seemed a poor choice for graveyard hose, and seemed slow and conditional for token generation, Sprout Swarm I have seen make ten or twenty tokens, Night soil will have a hard time of activating more than twice. Though I might put it in to support Relic of Progentius; Nihil Spellbomb; and Bojuka Bog; in mass GY disruption, the creature type is good too.
Beckon Apparitions; though has very poor effect, it fills the niche by being cheap enough to keep the mana open to foil a GY recursion, or at worst to make a instant flying trick, to surprise trade with pegasus and birds.
Sylvan Ranger; Oh no no no, I really like the green land search elves, and that it is CMC2 creates so much advantage compared to Civic Wayfinder. Sylvan Ranger creates the same CA as Civic Wayfinder but a turn earlier in tempo. The extra land supports retrace, and landfall, and looting archetypes.
What do you think of the following cards?
Magic Work Station Winston-180 http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=315755
Rubin8or, would you you think that the combination of 1) allied Signets and enemy Karoo, or 2) enemy Signets and allied Karoo, is better?
I would have thought that offering the Signets to the allied pairing, gives them a strong acceleration and fixing card, that is efficient in a lot of colour combinations.
The Izzet and Simic Karoo are good for Grixis and Bant shards respectively. Izzet is good for the control archetype counter-burn, Simic is good for the dinosaurs deck. RUG gets both the UG and UR Karoo and the GR Signet, and a Sac-Land. The Orzhov Karoo, works with the Esper permission deck, and the BW disruption deck. It maybe is the weakest, but offers CA to the control strategy, the use for the aggressive strategy is some what limited, but I think it is still a good card, for Oros and Doran wedges. RW Karoo is good for the Landfall mechanic. GB is good for the ramp strategy, and offers CA to the Golgari control strategy.
Swapping the enemy guild for the allied guild Karoo would give the UW and UB Karoo, and would be awesome for blue control, esp Esper shard. The GR and GW Karoo are good for Landfall, and stompy, and dinosaurs. The RB is okay for the control strategy. But then the enemy Signets, go against the grain of supporting allied strategies. Though the Karoo are a free card in deck construction, the Signets I think bias the allied tempo, over enemy card advantage. But losing the Signets from allied guilds would hurt the natural bias towards allied decks too much I think?
UW and UB have natural synergy with pure control cards, as does Esper. RB and Grixis control have disruption and removal oriented control. GW has good mid-range control strategy with a creature oriented meta. And GR has a good direct damage and artefact disruption focused control. The Signets offer all five of the allied guilds, in most of the strategies from true aggressive to pure control and roles, a strong mana fixing and ramp strategy, with great relative tempo, and neutral CA.
If the complete cycles where run, Tri-colour decks would have access to on-colour three Signets, three Karoo, and one or two Borderposts, and two or three Tri-Lands, one to four Panoramas, That is up to fifteen cards right there!! It is just way to much with over fifteen green cards, and twenty artefacts. If I included all cycles it would be over eighty mana fixing cards, this gives to many to other colours other than green. This colour combinations still have access to a couple of lands, the Signets if allied, the mana-facts. And green is still meant to have a clearly defined role for fixing, and acceleration, otherwise it is outnumbered, and outclassed. At eighty cards a Rotisserie draft will give each player on average ten mana fixing cards. Currently it is around six fixing cards each, which is still quite a high number.
But I want to include both Karoos and Signets, though I do not want twenty of them, I think ten is enough.
Unstable Mutation is really good for the aggressive blue deck, what type of card would you recommend to swap it in for? I like auras, I think they offer a strong dynamic to the game, though I find most are outclassed by modern equipment.
Withstand Death looked okay, I Cube with Avoid Fate; and Vines of Vastwood; I think that as a counter to soft removal, and combat, that a buff like Mutagenic Growth is stronger, because it offers increased effect of damage, but that Withstand Death was actually a counter for the hard removal that black has, that would never be a dead card. I do not think Withstand Death is as good as Avoid Fate; Vines of Vastwood; in countering hard removal, and it is the same casting cost as those two, and there is three another (G) buffs. So I guess there is already some redundancy in that CC, but I think it is okay, and I like the card a lot.
What do you think of the token generation cards?
Wall of Kelp; Stonybrook Schoolmaster; Selesnya Evangel; Icatian Crier; Cenn's Enlistment; Empty the Warrens; Sprout Swarm; I think are all really strong, with both Cenn's Enlistment; and Spout Swarm being of first pick tier. Empty the Warrens I do not think has enough support at the moment, but could be a good combo card, with some additional support and synergy.
I would like to include Thallid Shell-Dweller but I not sure of what to cut for it? Deathspore Thallid I think is too weak even for Rotisserie, just to over-costed and weak of a body.
Magic Work Station Winston-180 http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=315755
Currently, I have a high saturation of CMC1-3 creatures there are less than 70 spells with a CMC4 or higher. The Spiketails where included as part of the CS suite, that they also have flying is a benefit, and I think Skies.dec is okay with cheap equipment, but idk if I have a high saturation of equipment, maybe I could cut a couple?
Eel Umbra, I do not know if it has many great targets in blue, but there are still a couple of big flying creatures.
There are 11 discard spells in black, in the current incarnation, the list in the tread is 90 cards out of date, I increased the size to 450, to accommodate some archetypes, like hand disruption. In Rotisserie, I think, hand disruption is a viable archetype. And I like to have foils for common archetypes, and strategies. Psychic Purge is not dead against other colours or strategies, but tbh I think pauper has less bomb x/1 creatures. It does deal with mana-elves on turn one though, I would think that is its strongest application. Otherwise Piracy Charm is superior for x/1 removal, as it is modal. But would like to include as much blue; white; green; direct damage as possible, but I am not 100% sold on Hornet Sting yet, but might just get in there cause it can do the job?
Thank you Lanxal for spotting Faceless Butcher, yeah I might have a couple of other typos. I had Sindbad in before cause I thought it was common.
Also I would axe, the Fencer Clique because Wayward Soul has more power, Idk about the other cut? too hard to cut either Alpha card. I might try to find room for Wayward Soul, in my Cube thanks.
Confound does look awesome, as it counters buffs and Auras, that Apostate Blessing does not, I definitely will have to find room for Confound, that it is conditional counter does not matter much, it is easy to play, has cantrip, and as you say is a great mid combat trick, to counter their conversion and swingy plays. Thanks for recommending Confound, Rubin8or.
Yeah I will agree that the ideal play of Eel Umbra never happens, the buff is too small to make a difference with most soft removal, and is only a slight variance within combat. But it is an aura, (I want to find an excuse for Auramancer to get into the Cube) a rare blue buff (red has one, and colourless has one), and the pro-active save vs spot removal.
Withstand Death looks okay for saving the finishers, and bombs, as green does not have much variance of combat tricks.
Well I wont disagree that Cycling lands are the types of cards that make the MD40, but it is more about, the types of land cycles that I can fit into the Cube. But I think that in Rotisserie, it gives another option for the ramp deck, to contrast the tempo and CA strategies. And I think ramp makes a good healthy balance between aggressive and control, where as mid-range imo is another control strategy, that has too easy of a time beating aggressive decks. They are the only land cycle that supports the wedge colours. And I think they are nearly as popular as shard colours.
Well yes, the allied guild Karoos are omitted, and the enemy guild Signets. And the Borderposts, and Dual-Land Cycling creatures, are not complete cycles either. This is to reduce the amount of two colour fixing redundancy, and the Ting-Lands, I see as the opposite pairing of the Panoramas. Wedge vs Shard. Including the conventional suite of fixing cycles I would be including over 15 more two colour fixing, mostly for allied colours, and there should be a natural bias towards these decks because of the preference for allied gold effects, compared to enemy effects.
The enemy Karoos work well in some of the ramp strategies, they work well for the control strategy, and they also interact with the couple of Landfall cards. I dont like including all ten of them though, with only 5, they become a rarity. The Signets are the same, and they also dilute greens role of fixing and acceleration, though the signets are much easier to disrupt than Karoos.
Yeah I definitely run Shimmering Grotto, it is not that strong of an effect, but aggressive strategies like casting their CD casting cost spells, and are okay with that costing a mana to do that. That it is not aligned to a colour combination makes it easier to fit in, because it is helping the colour combinations that need it the most.
Well my main reason for excluding both the allied and enemy guild cycle of Karoos is exactly that, they are very powerful, they dominate to much of the dual colour fixing. Same with Signets. Want to limit them both. It is mostly the lack of mana denial which to offset the Karoos. In the current MTGS pauper rotisserie draft, there are multiple Karroos left, and there is only like 30 cards, that means there is too much of them, if you can pick them up as card 40+, cards that are "the best" fixing should be highly sought after, valuable, and not of an such abundance that you can pick them up as the last couple of cards.
Magic Work Station Winston-180 http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=315755
Eel Umbra, is a combat trick in blue; it is also a way for blue to apply proactive pressure with an aggressive creature and give it a buff; it saves a creature from removal at instant speed; it also proactively prevents an ancillary creature from being destroyed; or hardens a defensive creature for combat;
perhaps you can offer a suggestion for a similar effect?
Well I am open to considering cards that take the place of poor choices, but to be honest I really like the Sac-Lands, and would not consider a cycle of mono coloured lands in place of a cycle of tri-colour lands. I would consider using the Onslaught Cycling lands, to help certain colour strategies, but I only run two mono coloured lands, and you have not said that the Onslaught lands are better than the mono aligned lands currently run.
And I appreciated your suggestion of cards to cut for Condescend and Memory Lapse, but I had already increased the size of the Cube, and included them. The OP of the current list has them.
Magic Work Station Winston-180 http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=315755
Totem Harte-Beast; is in already, but I have included offensive enchantments, Spider; Snake; Hyena; Eel Umbra; Rancor; Armadillo Cloak; no shortage of offensive enchantments either. I think Hobble; or Faith's Fetters are the control cards of choice to pair with the synergy of Totem Hartebeest.
Halimar Wavewatch; is in already, and is okay, at worst draws out soft removal, and does not do well against black, but otherwise a strong control finisher. Sea Gate Oracle; is already in, the Sleight of Hand and three defense, give strong CA.
Sylvok Lifestaff; I think it is one of the better cards in Pauper.
Tendrils of Corruption; Mostly for the black matters archetype, though anything doing three or more damage makes this a strong effect. MBC has to get some love, but tbh, Im unsure of which other back matters cards make are good enough to include?
Grazing Gladehart, is the forth best Landfall card I could find, and I would really like to include as an archetype, and green has the obvious natural synergy with ramp, land search, Tilling Treefolk; and a lot of shamans and druids that get land OtBF or into hand.
Ting!! TING!!
Well tbh, I only knew them by this name, I had never heard of any other name. "Beatings" or Sac-Lands, either, I am familiar with.
Magic Work Station Winston-180 http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=315755
[b]Well both Temple Acolyte and Lone Missionary are in the current 405 list, because there needs to be some aggressively costed cards that play well against early game and there is not much good life gain in Pauper, that I could find anyway? what would you consider "the best"? Already have Sylvok Lifestaff; Grazing Gladehart; Tendrils of Corruption;
Suture Priest; and Soul Warden; may be okay if there was room?[/b]
Magic Work Station Winston-180 http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=315755
Oh Sindbad has never had a common printing, my mistake, Ill replace it with another card, maybe Thalakos Seer? people like shadow, and cantrip. No, I was not meaning to include cards that had never been common, thanks for pointing that out.
Blazing Effigy is a good card vs aggressive match-ups, it wears equipment well, and is a creature for recursion.
I think all lands will be Snow, that makes a few cards better, Withering Wisps instead of Pestilence, Rime Skeleton, and also makes Gangrenous Zombies a decent card, because a two damage sweep for CMC3 is rare enough that waiting a turn is a drawback that just has to be put up with, and black is a good colour for recursion and re-animate.
No extra cards or errata, Death Spark means graveyard order is a pain in the butt, otherwise no, no special rules other than Snow Lands.
Magic Work Station Winston-180 http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=315755
Stormland? I hadn't heard the name before, ty, idk what to call the cycle.
Well with the Storm-lands they do several things, where the cycling lands, either cycle do very little for anything other than aggressive strategies. Storm-lands, can ramp, without the drawback of the disruption of tempo from Ravnica Karoos, and they each fix four colour combinations, in one card, to the Karoos one. I value these as highly as Panoramas, because of the ramp effect, in addition to being tri-colour lands. The one off use of the card, is fine, because it can be used as well as any other land once it is active if you are mana short.
I was thinking of Tilling Treefolk or similar card, to get additional value out of them, but honestly I think they are the best ramp lands, and fine colour fixing. Im not sure if the most aggressive of strategies will be able to put them to the best possible use, but I think that with the current list, aggressive doesnt need help from land cards, it needs mid-range to have a strong opposition in pure-control, then there should be a good balance of strategies.
The cycling lands, dont do anything other than compensate for mana-flooding, and I dont think that should be a problem, I think any aggressive creatures, able to use mana as a resource so be able to compensate for the occasion over abundance of land. Barren Moor doesnt fix, or accelerate, or have an effect on the game-state, I included Peat Bog over Barren Moor, because I think ramp is a viable strategy in all colours, where Barren Moor only works well in hyper aggressive black strategies.
I would be interested to here you appraisal of some of the other facets of the Cubes design.
Firstly I found the 360 made the cut off in red really harsh, it gets a lot of burn, but not much else. Im not sure if I should just go to 405, to include other 5-6 cards in each primary colour?
I wanted some mana-denial in red, but it seemed to need a high amount of low costing creatures. couldnt find any big flying dragons either?
Naturalize/ Disenchant; I wanted a few more effects but unfortunately cant find the room, I didnt include Uktabi Faerie because it is so expensive compared to scavenger folk. Deglamer; Revoke Existence i thought would be good to deal with troublesome recursive cards, though I think they prolly wont come up often. Orims Thunder; Dismantling Blow would be great CA for them, but white has a couple of better Disenchant effects.
Counter-Spells like Memory Lapse I cant seem to find room to include some of the staple CS, like Memory Lapse and Condescend.
Green Non-creature spells dont seem to exist after CMC3? What gives with this? What would be the best of the worst of the high end green cards? cause the creatures are fantastic, just the NC spells are lacking high on the curve.
There are a few cards with synergy with only relatively few cards. Madness doesnt have many engines, and Landfall is lacking some creatures, sacrifice is almost non-existent, Rusted Slasher is the only card atm. Viridian Longbow only combos with Pili Pala, et al.
Am I too focused on mid-range? by including so many low casting cost creatures?
Mostly Im asking this because I want a list for Rotisserie Drafting, but wasnt sure a list of 405 would be any better or worse than a 360 list.
Thanks for your feedback Lanxal.
Magic Work Station Winston-180 http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=315755
Pauper Cube
1 Icatian Javelineers
1 Icatian Veteran
1 Kjeldoran Javelineer
1 Steppe Lynx
1 Ikiral Outrider
1 Knight of Cliffhaven
1 Kor Skyfisher
1 Squall Drifter
1 Stormfront Pegasus
1 Temple Alcolyte
1 Veteran Armorer
1 Aven Riftwatcher
1 Burreton Bombadier
1 Cloudchaser Kestrel
1 Kabuto Moth
1 Kor Hookmaster
1 Kor Sanctifiers
1 Porcelain Legionnaire
1 Heavy Ballista
1 Guardian of the Guildpact
1 Sanctum Gargoyle
1 Totem-Guide Hartebeest
1 Daru Lancer
1 Noble Templar
1 Hyena Umbra
1 Ivory Charm
1 Mana Tithe
1 Pollen Remedy
1 Smite
1 Sunlance
1 Apostle's Blessing
1 Dawn Charm
1 Divine Offering
1 Journey to Nowhere
1 Judge Unworthy
1 Lumithread Field
1 Holy Light
1 Temporal Isolation
1 Kor Chant
1 Marshaling Cry
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Righteous Charge
1 Safe Passage
1 Faith's Fetters
1 False Defeat
1 Cenn's Enlistment
1 Skywatcher Adept
1 Flying Men
1 Kracken Hatchling
1 Vedelken Certarch
1 Dream Stalker
1 Halimar Wavewatch
1 Looter il-Kor
1 Merfolk Looter
1 Sindbad
1 Spellstutter Sprite
1 Spiketail Hatchling
1 Waterfront Bouncer
1 Calcite Snapper
1 Man o'-War
1 Neurok Invisimancer
1 Perstermite
1 Spiketail Drakeling
1 Spined Thopter
1 Scroll Thief
1 Sea Gate Oracle
1 Thornwind Faerie
1 Wurmfang Drake
1 Ninja of the Deep Hours
1 Mnemonic Wall
1 Mulldrifter
1 Spire Monitor
1 Shoreline Ranger
1 Flood
1 Force Spike
1 Ponder
1 Psychic Purge
1 Spell Pierce
1 Steel Sabotage
1 Arcane Denial
1 Counterspell
1 Daze
1 Eel Umbra
1 Into the Roil
1 Mana Leak
1 Miscalculation
1 Narcolepsy
1 Telekinesis
1 Capsize
1 Exclude
1 Frantic Search
1 Deep Analysis
1 Foresee
1 Ray of Command
1 Whiplash Trap
1 Guul Draz Vampire
1 Fume Spitter
1 Shadow Guildmage
1 Vampire Lacerator
1 Viscera Seer
1 Zulaport Enforcer
1 Augur of Skulls
1 Bloodthrone Vampire
1 Coumbajj Witches
1 Fledgling Djinn
1 Rathi Trapper
1 Ravenous Rats
1 Undertaker
1 Skittering Skirge
1 Vault Skirge
1 Blind Zealot
1 Cadaver Imp
1 Chittering Rats
1 Crypt Rats
1 Gangrenous Zombies
1 Liliana's Spectre
1 Stinkweed Imp
1 Dimir House Guard
1 Faceless Devourer
1 Grave Scrabler
1 Pith Driller
1 Twisted Abomination
1 Dark Ritual
1 Disfigure
1 Duress
1 Executioner's Capsule
1 Raven's Crime
1 Tortured Existence
1 Unearth
1 Vendetta
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Doom Blade
1 Exhume
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Sinkhole
1 Ashes to Ashes
1 Crippling Fatigue
1 Expunge
1 Evincar's Justice
1 Pestilence
1 Snuff Out
1 Terndrils of Corruption
1 Spread the Sickness
1 Urborg Uprising
1 Bloodfire Dwarf
1 Goblin Bushwacker
1 Kird Ape
1 Martyr of Ashes
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Torpor Moloch
1 Blazing Effigy
1 Fireslinger
1 Goblin Skycutter
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Keldon Marauders
1 Mogg War Marshal
1 Plated Geopede
1 Thunderscape Familiar
1 Tin Street Hooligans
1 Brighthearth Banneret
[M12] Blood Ogre
1 Ghitu Slinger
1 Keldon Vandals
1 Maniac Vandal
1 Viashino Bladescout
1 Vithan Stinger
[M12] Gorehorn Ogre
1 Ruhk Egg
1 Subterranean Shambler
1 Gathan Raiders
1 Ignot Chewer
1 Chartooth Cougar
1 Burst Lightning
1 Death Spark
1 Flame Slash
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Reckless Charge
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Disintergrate
1 Fireball
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Incinerate
1 Thunderbolt
1 Zektar Shrine Expedition
1 Act of Treason
1 Arc Lightning
1 Smash
1 Staggershock
1 Thunderclap
1 Aftershock
1 Dead // Gone
1 Wrap in Flames
1 Pyrotechnics
1 Fissure
1 Basking Rootwaller
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Granger Guildmage
1 Llanawar Elves
1 Scavenger Folk
1 Scythe Tiger
1 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
1 Tinder Wall
1 Wild Nactyl
1 Deadly Recluse
1 Juvenile Gloomwidow
1 Mire Boa
1 River Boa
1 Sakura Tribe Elder
1 Silhana Ledgewalker
1 Sylvan Ranger
1 Viridian Emissary
1 Wall of Roots
1 Citanul Woodreaders
1 Farhaven Elf
1 Simian Grunts
1 Yavimaya Elder
1 Blastoderm
1 Mold Shambler
1 Nantuko Vigilante
1 Penumbra Spider
1 Ondu Giant
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Wildheart Invoker
1 Thundering Tanadon
1 Krosan Tusker
1 Nature's Claim
1 Mutagenic Growth
1 Rancor
1 Sandstorm
1 Spider Umbra
1 Thrill of the Hunt
1 Hidden Spider
1 Vines of Vastwood
1 Evolution Charm
1 Gleeful Sabotage
1 Leeching Bite
1 Moments Peace
1 Plummet
1 Sprout Swarm
1 Symbiosis
1 Cultivate
1 Gilt Leaf Ambush
1 Harrow
1 Snake Umbra
1 Phyrexian Walker
1 Ornithopter
1 Brass Man
1 Perilous Myr
1 Phyexian War Beast
1 Pilgrims Eye
1 Ulamog's Crusher
1 Scuttlemutt
1 Rusted Slasher
1 Pili-Pala
1 Walking Atlas
1 Reinforced Bulwark
1 Wall of Tanglecord
1 Sylvok Replica
1 Moriok Replica
1 Nim Replica
1 Iron Myr
1 Vulshok Replica
1 Auriok Replica
1 Soldier Replica
1 Neurok Replica
1 Wizard Replica
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Aeolipile
1 Serrated Arrows
1 Tumble Magnet
1 Ichor Wellspring
1 Panic Spellbomb
1 Horizon Spellbomb
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Neurok Stealthsuit
1 Healer's Headdress
1 Accorder's Shield
1 Adventuring Gear
1 Bonesplitter
1 Flayer Husk
1 Kitesail
1 Bladed Pinions
1 Sylvok Lifestaff
1 Vulshock Morningstar
1 Vulshock Gauntlets
1 Viridian Longbow
1 Opaline Bracers
1 Lotus Petal
1 Wanderer's Twig
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Explorer's Map
1 Chromatic Star
1 Terrarion
1 Armillary Sphere
1 Felwar Stone
1 Mindstone
1 Mycosynth Wellspring
1 Pentad Prism
1 Prismatic Lens
1 Prophetic Prism
1 Pristine Talisman
1 Azorius Signet
1 Dimir Signet
1 Gruul Signet
1 Rakdos Signet
1 Selesnya Signet
1 Fieldmist Borderpost
1 Deft Duelist
1 Sivler Drake
1 Dimir Infiltraitor
1 Agony Warp
1 Cavern Harpy
1 Blightning
1 Terminate
1 Lava Zombie
1 Branching Bolt
1 Horned Kavu
1 Scab-Clan Mauler
1 Armadillo Cloak
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Pale Recluse
1 Snakeform
1 Temporal Spring
1 Stream Hopper
1 Izzet Chronarch
1 Beckon Apparition
1 Harvest Gwyllion
1 Putrid Leech
1 Rendclaw Trow
1 Goblin Legionnaire
1 Double Cleave
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Shimmering Grotto
1 Rupture Spire
1 Bant Panorama
1 Jund Panorama
1 Esper Panorama
1 Grixis Panorama
1 Boros Karoo
1 Golgari Karoo
1 Izzet Karoo
1 Orzhov Karoo
1 Simic Karoo
1 Ancient Spring
1 Geothermal Crevice
1 Irrigation Ditch
1 Sulfur Vent
1 Tinder Farm
1 Halimar Depths
1 Soaring Sea-Cliffs
1 Khalni Garden
1 Hickory Woodlot
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Peat Bog
1 Seriji Steppe
1 Secluded Steppe
1 Teetering Peaks
1 Smouldering Spires
1 Desert
1 Oasis
1 Quicksand
Magic Work Station Winston-180 http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=315755
Magic Work Station Winston-180 http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=315755