I absolutely advocate 4 Graven Cairns. It is our fastest way to play disruption (Smallpox) and the most reliable way to get Seismic into play. The only time 4 Cairns has been bad is when I'm desperately digging for a green source to start Loaming. But that's probably just me being inexperienced with the deck.
Dhamkhari, the consensus over the past few weeks have been that cutting Lightning Bolt altogether is probably correct for the meta right now. Abrupt Decay, Flame Jab and Seismic are enough of spot removal spells, and you will probably find yourself drawing into Bolts when you're looking for higher priority cards. I know it looks especially good beside Pyromancer, but we're really not interested in an overabundance of 1-for-1, one-shot removal spells (the exception being Abrupt just because it's so damned amazing). Flame Jab and Seismic are reusable removal machines whereas bolt has limited application in our deck.
I would recommend cutting the 2 Bolts and trying out 4 Lingering Souls. You could easily swap out an overgrown tomb for a godless shrine as well. Souls with Pyromancer is ... gross.
And if Bolt is in there to deal with aggro, you can always SB Anger of the Gods. Ace posted a SB list a few pages back that looks really close to ideal IMO.
It won't kill our tokens unless we set it at zero, explosives aren't like pernicious deeds, they destroy permanents with cc equal to the number of counters, not the number or less.
Oh wow, I should probably read cards more often. I would definitely try it out SB for starters.
Hey everybody, just picked up the pyromancer version of loam, and loving it so far. I have a question about manlands, as in how many should we play approx. and in what combination. Atm I run 2 Raging Ravines, a Lavaclaw Reaches and a Treetop Village, but feel like 4 might be a bit on the high side of it. Any thoughts on this?
I would like to see your list before I can make any useful comments. 4 CIPT lands is a lot if you're focusing on disruption and getting a Lili into play on time. They do compliment 1cmc discard spells though, especially if you can chain Raven's for the first few turns. I'm currently playing 4 color Loam and can't really justify fiddling with the manabase that much (being that Treetop only provides green). The strength of Ravine is the 4 toughness, there are only a handful of removal spells that can kill it. Lavaclaw and Treetop are more susceptible to burn etc.
I'd be interested to see Creeping Tar Pit in UB counter-heavy builds.
I think it sounds sweet, kinda hearkens to Pernicious Deed in NicFit. I'm not sure I would use it in Pyromancer lists though. It will absolutely kill all of our tokens and might create some awkward situations where we need removal but don't want to wipe the entire board.
I could see you running into the problem of 1. when to start Loaming and 2. what win condition to start rolling.
IMO, Seismic and Rack are two very different approaches that I don't think synergize well together. Seismic Assault doesn't really care what your opponent's hand looks like whereas Rack absolutely wants their hand empty. Unless pinging for 1 each turn is worth it, idk.
I'm still new to the deck, and I'm still learning the nuances of Loaming (when not to do it for risk of dumping Seismic Assault). It looks even more problematic with your list because you obviously don't want to loam away a Bloodchief Ascension or Rack as well as Seismic. Maybe I'm reading this incorrectly?
There's a 1cmc land enchantment you can try instead of Trace, I think it's from Time Spiral?
edit: I was thinking of Utopia Sprawl, then realized it only enchants forests..
I think you raise a good point about cutting Smallpox. In my limited testing I've found the sweet spot to be 5 lands; that gives me 2 mana to use Loam and 3 to Flashback Looting, play an Assault, Flame Jab 3 times, Raven's etc etc. Smallpox makes it very difficult to count to 5. Not to mention how color intensive this deck is.
I'm considering 4 Raven's Crime too. It's so good that I think it should be called a core card. I'm never unhappy to see it in multiples, especially in turns 1-3. We operate brilliantly without hands; our opponents generally do not. So 1-for-1s are swell when we want to enter topdeck mode.
Tymaret is indeed a cute looking card. I just happen to have one in the binder..
You've totally sold me on Pyroman, I'm into it. Should Seismic count remain at 3 then? In the creatureless build 4 sounds best, but topdecking an enchantment with Pyroman on the field sounds kinda non ideal.
I'm also going to try mainboard Slaughter Pact, probably 1. ******* Twin is everywhere, and it will allow me to tap out for Pyroman + spell and still have tricks up my sleeve.
In what MUs does Pyroman absolutely come out for games 2/3?
I think I agree with Bloodghast. I love the card, it does a good many tricks, but it seems like we could fill that slot with something better considering he doesn't block or really do any damage until the opponent is at >10 life.
I would imagine something like reusable removal would better fill that spot. Liliana, or another Seismic maybe. I'm considering going to 4 in my list.
Then again, mykat's list doesn't use Lingering Souls. Why is that? Perhaps Bloodghast fills that aggro role well enough.
Jumping on the Pyroman bandwagon, though it grieves me slightly to lose Liliana. It feels necessary though, turn 3 playing Pyromancer/Raven's or something seems a little overpowered.
I feel light on removal as I had to cut lightning bolt to make room for the core. Is anyone playing Slaughter Pact in the sb? I feel like 2 is necessary to fight off Splintertwink. Who else is augmenting the 4 Abrupt Decay with more spot removal?
I have virtually 7 ways to get white mana. Is this too few? Are we even worried about hardcasting Souls?
I feel like there are many cards that would hose this deck: Zealous Persecution, Golgari Charm, Black Sun's Zenith, Illness in the Ranks, Night of Souls' Betrayal, etc. Granted, many of those aren't seeing too much play. I guess that's the charm of playing a rogue-ish deck.
Ace, what would you say your percentage is for wins-via-tokens and wins-via-seismic shocks? How much of the general gameplay changes with this core?
I didn't make it to fnm last night, but I did have a chance to test against my roommate with merfolk.
Everything seemed to be going smoothly until he played Master of Waves and I had a Flame Jab in hand. Is this card good? It's probably much better with Pyroman. Felt bad against the 'folk, anyway.
Ace, I think I will need to increase my Abrupt Decay count and cut some Bolts. Maybe like 3/3 split? I'm probably going the Pyromancer route anyway (though Lili will be missed).
Do we have anything like the cycling lands in legacy? End of turn cycle, grab Loam etc. Would Desperate Ravings allow you to dredge 2 LftL back to hand? If so, broken. Any other instant speed draw spells in our colors? Need to be able to use 1 Loam multiple times during a turn. Possible?
I thought about lily but in the end smallpox does the job. It's like 2 activations of lily + land hate. I'd love to play her honestly but i don't know what to take out...
Pyromancer eats all the removal in theory but often i play them after my discard spells when i have them or i wait until i can get at least some value by casting it followed by other spells the same turn. They have been very good so far. Also having multiple is just crazy good.
Have you considered Noxious Revival? Maybe even just 1 copy? Seems like a good way to get more value out of Pyromancer and potentially even recycle one.
Noxious could also give us a virtual 4th copy of Seismic Assault.
I have to admit, this deck of yours has me considering dropping Liliana in favor of Pyromancer. Have you thought about putting Lili in the board for control MUs?
That list looks really sweet. How often does your Pyromancer get destroyed when you need it most? I noticed the increase in discard spells which I imagine compensates for opp's removal. I also notice the absence of Lili which I find strange. Isn't discarding Souls, Looting, Loam etc. with Liliana almost essential at times? Did you find yourself wanting that card during the tourney?
Congrats on your decent finish btw. I'll be taking Loam to fnm this week too.
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Dhamkhari, the consensus over the past few weeks have been that cutting Lightning Bolt altogether is probably correct for the meta right now. Abrupt Decay, Flame Jab and Seismic are enough of spot removal spells, and you will probably find yourself drawing into Bolts when you're looking for higher priority cards. I know it looks especially good beside Pyromancer, but we're really not interested in an overabundance of 1-for-1, one-shot removal spells (the exception being Abrupt just because it's so damned amazing). Flame Jab and Seismic are reusable removal machines whereas bolt has limited application in our deck.
I would recommend cutting the 2 Bolts and trying out 4 Lingering Souls. You could easily swap out an overgrown tomb for a godless shrine as well. Souls with Pyromancer is ... gross.
And if Bolt is in there to deal with aggro, you can always SB Anger of the Gods. Ace posted a SB list a few pages back that looks really close to ideal IMO.
edit: This is Ace1's SB:
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Duress
1 Vault Of The Archangel
1 dakmor salvage
3 Anger Of The Gods
Oh wow, I should probably read cards more often. I would definitely try it out SB for starters.
I would like to see your list before I can make any useful comments. 4 CIPT lands is a lot if you're focusing on disruption and getting a Lili into play on time. They do compliment 1cmc discard spells though, especially if you can chain Raven's for the first few turns. I'm currently playing 4 color Loam and can't really justify fiddling with the manabase that much (being that Treetop only provides green). The strength of Ravine is the 4 toughness, there are only a handful of removal spells that can kill it. Lavaclaw and Treetop are more susceptible to burn etc.
I'd be interested to see Creeping Tar Pit in UB counter-heavy builds.
IMO, Seismic and Rack are two very different approaches that I don't think synergize well together. Seismic Assault doesn't really care what your opponent's hand looks like whereas Rack absolutely wants their hand empty. Unless pinging for 1 each turn is worth it, idk.
I'm still new to the deck, and I'm still learning the nuances of Loaming (when not to do it for risk of dumping Seismic Assault). It looks even more problematic with your list because you obviously don't want to loam away a Bloodchief Ascension or Rack as well as Seismic. Maybe I'm reading this incorrectly?
There's a 1cmc land enchantment you can try instead of Trace, I think it's from Time Spiral?
edit: I was thinking of Utopia Sprawl, then realized it only enchants forests..
Be wary of casting Raven's into Obstinate Baloth (and Smiter in W builds).
Thragtusk looks like a really solid option.
I've still to test Tymaret, though it looks REALLY sick with Lingering Souls.
I'm considering 4 Raven's Crime too. It's so good that I think it should be called a core card. I'm never unhappy to see it in multiples, especially in turns 1-3. We operate brilliantly without hands; our opponents generally do not. So 1-for-1s are swell when we want to enter topdeck mode.
Tymaret is indeed a cute looking card. I just happen to have one in the binder..
Why do you play Duress over Thoughtseize?
That's a fine looking SB.
You've totally sold me on Pyroman, I'm into it. Should Seismic count remain at 3 then? In the creatureless build 4 sounds best, but topdecking an enchantment with Pyroman on the field sounds kinda non ideal.
I'm also going to try mainboard Slaughter Pact, probably 1. ******* Twin is everywhere, and it will allow me to tap out for Pyroman + spell and still have tricks up my sleeve.
I think I agree with Bloodghast. I love the card, it does a good many tricks, but it seems like we could fill that slot with something better considering he doesn't block or really do any damage until the opponent is at >10 life.
I would imagine something like reusable removal would better fill that spot. Liliana, or another Seismic maybe. I'm considering going to 4 in my list.
Then again, mykat's list doesn't use Lingering Souls. Why is that? Perhaps Bloodghast fills that aggro role well enough.
Maybe I'll sell an Urborg and buy a Canopy.
I feel light on removal as I had to cut lightning bolt to make room for the core. Is anyone playing Slaughter Pact in the sb? I feel like 2 is necessary to fight off Splintertwink. Who else is augmenting the 4 Abrupt Decay with more spot removal?
I have virtually 7 ways to get white mana. Is this too few? Are we even worried about hardcasting Souls?
I feel like there are many cards that would hose this deck: Zealous Persecution, Golgari Charm, Black Sun's Zenith, Illness in the Ranks, Night of Souls' Betrayal, etc. Granted, many of those aren't seeing too much play. I guess that's the charm of playing a rogue-ish deck.
Ace, what would you say your percentage is for wins-via-tokens and wins-via-seismic shocks? How much of the general gameplay changes with this core?
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Graven Cairns
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
1 Blood Crypt
1 Godless Shrine
1 Stomping Ground
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Copperline Gorge
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Raging Ravine
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Young Pyromancer
30 Spells
4 Life from the Loam
3 Seismic Assault
4 Lingering Souls
4 Faithless Looting
4 Smallpox
2 Raven's Crime
2 Flame Jab
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Damnation
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Slaughter Pact
2 ??
Everything seemed to be going smoothly until he played Master of Waves and I had a Flame Jab in hand. Is this card good? It's probably much better with Pyroman. Felt bad against the 'folk, anyway.
Ace, I think I will need to increase my Abrupt Decay count and cut some Bolts. Maybe like 3/3 split? I'm probably going the Pyromancer route anyway (though Lili will be missed).
Do we have anything like the cycling lands in legacy? End of turn cycle, grab Loam etc. Would Desperate Ravings allow you to dredge 2 LftL back to hand? If so, broken. Any other instant speed draw spells in our colors? Need to be able to use 1 Loam multiple times during a turn. Possible?
Have you considered Noxious Revival? Maybe even just 1 copy? Seems like a good way to get more value out of Pyromancer and potentially even recycle one.
Noxious could also give us a virtual 4th copy of Seismic Assault.
I have to admit, this deck of yours has me considering dropping Liliana in favor of Pyromancer. Have you thought about putting Lili in the board for control MUs?
Congrats on your decent finish btw. I'll be taking Loam to fnm this week too.