I'm pretty sure that most of us would agree here that this deck is quite difficult to pilot. The tight rope you have to walk with shadow can be difficult (every single fetch/shock decision can have a huge impact on the progress of the game) and you have small interactions with bauble and street wraith that can definitely add up over the course of the game. In addition to this we are playing a 4/5c manabase, have a tutor effect for added complexity, are often casting multiple discard spells a game (making incorrect decisions here can also punish you a lot), and our mulligan decisions can be quite difficult (how many cantrips makes a 1 lander keepable? Is a hand with no threats keepable? what about a hand with only threats and little interaction.. etc)
The deck is fricken hard to play man. Keep working at it, I'm sure you will get it eventually.
I think you would want to go with a Hazoret and a Pia. Pia is pretty close to souls, especially when you can start recurring her with a last hope or k-command
The only time I think I would be rather play Grixis over this 4/5c is if the meta is super hostile to shadow in general, but I don't think we will see that happen again. Tarmogoyf is better than the delve creatures in an open field, traverse is an insane card, abrupt decay is a catchall, and Temur Battlerage is way better in our deck than in theirs. They don't actually grind better than we do now that we have gone 4/5c, so the only thing they have going for them is their resilience to push and a manabase that functions better under blood moon, and graveyard hate is slightly better against us.
But I don't think those disadvantages matter anywhere near as much as the advantages you get out of traverse and goyf.
If you are worried about having dead topdecks, I think Liliana of the Veil is exactly what you want, so cutting her seems to go against what you are worried about. She allows you to trade dead cards for their real cards.
Bauble actually has a bit of synergy with her allowing you to play bauble, plus with no cards in hand, and then get your card on their upkeep anyway.
The other option is that if you think you will see more eldrazi and affinity, maybe it's worth it to swap your splash colors and play the souls in the main.
Oh and with the rise of humans and such, I think having a second sweeper in the side is a good idea. Probably want radiant flames though.
Hazoret doesn't necessarily slam dunk those matchups, but she is just an all around solid threat. She resistant to removal, she lets us attack on an angle that we don't normally get (hasty), she's decent in size, and she can allow us to turn dead cards into reach. That's why I think she is maindeckable.
Lingering Souls is a great card, but I think that if you asked a UWx control player which card they are more scared of, Liliana of the Veil or Souls, I think Veil is scarier for them, for sure. The last hopes are also quite good against them, either threatening an ultimate or recurring our threats.
I think last hope is also how you are going to beat opposing lingering souls decks.
Give it a shot! I'm not saying you will now smash them, but I think this configuration has some legs.
I'm *thinking* that the 4th liliana of the veil and the last hopes (especially if you recur pia) will be just as good as lingering souls against the control decks.
I don't mind losing to abzan. The games are fun and interactive. And if someone is choosing to play abzan over our deck they are sacrificing so much against the rest of the field. So eh, they can have the win against me.
And even so, I tried to take the loss of Lingering Souls seriously. I think that with the tools I put in the sideboard, I think even the BGx and UWx matchups will be okay.
@whocansay - Saying that Control and Abzan will be able to "just path it" isn't entirely fair considering we have a lot of ways to take their removal out of their hand (or have stubborn as your last card against control) and all of our threats need a removal spell, and they have to have specifically path for her. Shes also really hard for Grixis Shadow to deal with as well.
Hazoret isn't for the humans matchup.
@spooly- yeah, I think this is what I will go with for now:
The maindeck tarfire is a hedge against the little creature decks, and I was having some trouble with delirium, so I wanted another easy/cheap enabler. The two Mistys over the last 2 Polluted Deltas are so I have a couple extra ways to get Stomping Ground so its easier to get the double red for Pia.
I played at my LGS last night. It was a relatively small event (16 players) but I did pretty well and had a good time. I haven't been able to play much lately, so it was nice to be back.
I played something similar to what Spooly suggested in his article, and I went with the maindeck lingering souls. I had no idea what the meta was like there, so I just picked a 75 and went with it. This is what I brought with me:
I beat counter company in round 1. He has no company nor chord, and just a couple removal spells on his combo pieces gives me time to eventually battlerage an 11/11 shadow in g1. Staticaster basically locked him out in g2.
Round 2 I lost to Titanshift. G1 I had 2 6/6 shadows and he was able to valakut trigger 1 and trade prime time for the other then I lost to a follow up scapeshift. G2 I went to 6 and kept 1 land, 2 street wraith, 2 discard spells, and a goyf. Then he said "I have pregame effects" and I was sad as he put a leyline into play and I didn't see a second land til turn 4.
Round 3 I played a friend of mine on GW Company (with Ghost Quarters and Runamap Excavator). Uh oh. G1 I played 3 discard spells that prevented him from doing anything relevant as I followed up with Souls and a Shadow. Game 2 I fumbled around with no threat on board for a while. He played patiently not allowing me to get shadows online until I was basically dead. Game 3 went similarly to g1, I discarded his whole hand then followed up with quick shadow. He ghost quartered me once in the 3 games.
Round 4 I played the saltiest player ever. I was warned that he's a regular there and is usually on death and taxes, so I was prepared to lose. I was excited when I thoughtseized him turn 1 and saw 1 land, 3 serum visions, a sleight of hand, and a lotus bloom. Took the lotus and killed him with turn 2 goyf, turn 3 goyf while he fumbled with his cantrips. G2 he opened with turn 0 leyline. I inquisition, target myself making him exclaim, "that's target opponent!" He's wrong, so I revealed my hand to him took my other inquisition so I can just get sorcery in the yard for goyf. He combos me on turn 4 which I have the disdainful stroke for, but he also has pact of negation. G3 he keeps 1 land, no leyline, but a couple cantrips and a primatic. I play turn 1 thoughtseize, 2 thoughtseizes turn 2, turn 3 liliana which he pacts (And angels graces next turn) followed by turn 4 brutality and 6/7 goyf. I finish him off with a Battlerage shortly after as he grumbling about how different the game would have been if he "just had a stupid leyline."
Oh well. I didn't let him bother me. I had a fun time regardless.
I'm not sure I would play the Lingering Souls in the main at that LGS again, and I might even try out just the four color build with a Bunch of Liliana's as my grind plan. With the new Planewalker rule, I think that just playing Last Hopes and maybe even a 4th Veil in the side could be a reasonable way to play the long game without having to play the 19th land in the deck.
I'm surprised that you went with Liliana, the Last Hope in the Lingering Souls mainboard decklist. You mention that you chose this because you can hit souls off of Last Hope's -2. But Liliana of the Veil synergizes with souls just as well considering you can discard them to her +1. You're also sacrificing some percentage points against the combo decks when you swap to white instead of blue. The Last Hope loses you even more percentage points there as well.
I guess you could also be just be going all in against the go wide decks with the Last Hope over Veil?
(this is probably an unnecessary amount of conjecture about just a 1-of in a theoretical list haha)
If we do cut the white splash then we really need to find a way to compete with abzan and grixis. Or way to kill them through all their removal. Because those games arent easy even with the splash. So I don't know what we could play to come close to keeping up.
Thrun? Pia and Kiran? Even something crazy like Bedlam Reveler?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
The deck is fricken hard to play man. Keep working at it, I'm sure you will get it eventually.
That would let you more safely play the anger of the gods in the sideboard as well.
But if you're really not feeling PnK I guess we have to back to souls? Is there any other option?
I have been liking the Hazoret as a 1of in the main though. Still not sure on the sideboard configuration.
But I don't think those disadvantages matter anywhere near as much as the advantages you get out of traverse and goyf.
Bauble actually has a bit of synergy with her allowing you to play bauble, plus with no cards in hand, and then get your card on their upkeep anyway.
The other option is that if you think you will see more eldrazi and affinity, maybe it's worth it to swap your splash colors and play the souls in the main.
Oh and with the rise of humans and such, I think having a second sweeper in the side is a good idea. Probably want radiant flames though.
I guess it would probably just be easier to be straightforward and ask what 75 you're liking right now
Lingering Souls is a great card, but I think that if you asked a UWx control player which card they are more scared of, Liliana of the Veil or Souls, I think Veil is scarier for them, for sure. The last hopes are also quite good against them, either threatening an ultimate or recurring our threats.
I think last hope is also how you are going to beat opposing lingering souls decks.
Give it a shot! I'm not saying you will now smash them, but I think this configuration has some legs.
I don't mind losing to abzan. The games are fun and interactive. And if someone is choosing to play abzan over our deck they are sacrificing so much against the rest of the field. So eh, they can have the win against me.
Hazoret isn't for the humans matchup.
@spooly- yeah, I think this is what I will go with for now:
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Hazoret the Fervent
4 Street Wraith
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Terminate
2 Temur Battle Rage
1 Tarfire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Blood Crypt
1 Watery Grave
1 Stomping Ground
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Swamp
1 Collective Brutality
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Kozilek's Return
1 Radiant Flames
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Izzet Staticaster
The maindeck tarfire is a hedge against the little creature decks, and I was having some trouble with delirium, so I wanted another easy/cheap enabler. The two Mistys over the last 2 Polluted Deltas are so I have a couple extra ways to get Stomping Ground so its easier to get the double red for Pia.
I played something similar to what Spooly suggested in his article, and I went with the maindeck lingering souls. I had no idea what the meta was like there, so I just picked a 75 and went with it. This is what I brought with me:
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Lingering Souls
4 Street Wraith
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Terminate
2 Temur Battle Rage
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Blood Crypt
1 Godless Shrine
1 Stomping Ground
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Swamp
2 Collective Brutality
2 Lingering Souls
1 Watery Grave
1 Hazoret the Fervent
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Kozilek's Return
1 Radiant Flames
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Izzet Staticaster
I beat counter company in round 1. He has no company nor chord, and just a couple removal spells on his combo pieces gives me time to eventually battlerage an 11/11 shadow in g1. Staticaster basically locked him out in g2.
Round 2 I lost to Titanshift. G1 I had 2 6/6 shadows and he was able to valakut trigger 1 and trade prime time for the other then I lost to a follow up scapeshift. G2 I went to 6 and kept 1 land, 2 street wraith, 2 discard spells, and a goyf. Then he said "I have pregame effects" and I was sad as he put a leyline into play and I didn't see a second land til turn 4.
Round 3 I played a friend of mine on GW Company (with Ghost Quarters and Runamap Excavator). Uh oh. G1 I played 3 discard spells that prevented him from doing anything relevant as I followed up with Souls and a Shadow. Game 2 I fumbled around with no threat on board for a while. He played patiently not allowing me to get shadows online until I was basically dead. Game 3 went similarly to g1, I discarded his whole hand then followed up with quick shadow. He ghost quartered me once in the 3 games.
Round 4 I played the saltiest player ever. I was warned that he's a regular there and is usually on death and taxes, so I was prepared to lose. I was excited when I thoughtseized him turn 1 and saw 1 land, 3 serum visions, a sleight of hand, and a lotus bloom. Took the lotus and killed him with turn 2 goyf, turn 3 goyf while he fumbled with his cantrips. G2 he opened with turn 0 leyline. I inquisition, target myself making him exclaim, "that's target opponent!" He's wrong, so I revealed my hand to him took my other inquisition so I can just get sorcery in the yard for goyf. He combos me on turn 4 which I have the disdainful stroke for, but he also has pact of negation. G3 he keeps 1 land, no leyline, but a couple cantrips and a primatic. I play turn 1 thoughtseize, 2 thoughtseizes turn 2, turn 3 liliana which he pacts (And angels graces next turn) followed by turn 4 brutality and 6/7 goyf. I finish him off with a Battlerage shortly after as he grumbling about how different the game would have been if he "just had a stupid leyline."
Oh well. I didn't let him bother me. I had a fun time regardless.
I'm not sure I would play the Lingering Souls in the main at that LGS again, and I might even try out just the four color build with a Bunch of Liliana's as my grind plan. With the new Planewalker rule, I think that just playing Last Hopes and maybe even a 4th Veil in the side could be a reasonable way to play the long game without having to play the 19th land in the deck.
I guess you could also be just be going all in against the go wide decks with the Last Hope over Veil?
(this is probably an unnecessary amount of conjecture about just a 1-of in a theoretical list haha)
Thrun? Pia and Kiran? Even something crazy like Bedlam Reveler?