I've been jamming the BBE Jund list that was posted last page (with a few tweaks) and I'm just crushing. I know its a 4 drop, and I know its random, but seriously BBE trains are crazy. You're totally fine with the Traverses hitting your land drops in the early game because once you start casting BBE's you don't stop until their dead. You lose percentage points against the unfair decks in game 1 because you're playing less disruption, but I'm just crushing any creature based matchup or Jace deck. UW is obnoxious, but I've been able to run them over most of the time before they can kill our manabase. Post sideboard you have the 4 Collective Brutalities for the spell based combo and you get MAGUS AND BLOOD MOON which is great against a large percentage of the field. The mana feels so silky smooth after playing 4/5c Shadow for so long.
I really can't suggest the 4 BBE+4 KCommand decklist enough.
Funny, I've been testing with a very similar list. I didn't play the 4th color though, that was a little too ambitious for me. (I played a 3rd jace so I could see him enough to know if he's good). The 4th color might be possible though.
But I can confirm that manamorphose is gas though.
Lastly, this deck also has felt like the most powerful jace shell I have played so far. Which seems silly. But if he is just a finisher in a control deck, he has only felt okay. He's a powerful card, sure. But he won't ever flip a board state, he really "only" gains more card advantage or finishes your opponent off if you're already ahead.
Death's Shadow doesn't often get into board states in which it's behind, it usually loses because of its lack of card advantage. Jace is yet another threat for our opponent to handle as it will draw us 3 cards a turn with 15 shuffle effects.
The BBE version feels insane in a grind in my testing though. That deck plays so many "copies" of BBE because of the traverses and kcommands. But that deck isn't great against combo and big mana because it has so little disruption.
No. That sample size is much too small. And even if it wasnt, why chose day 1 undefeated instead of top 32 or something? What I want to know is what the format looks like as a whole.
Essentially I'm playing Snapcaster instead of planewalkers or lingering souls. And I trimmed some fatal pushes and decay for bolts so that I am better against the small creature decks and have more ways to close out a game against control and big mana. Against the decks you would think I would miss the fatal pushes (shadows) I play enough bolts and snaps that it's really hard for them to walk the line to avoid the bolts (much like we have to do against jeskai except we also play huge threats.)
And now Spooly has come around and agrees that we don't want to play long games and try to outvalue our opponent. Just kill them. Bolt does that while also being at least decent against almost every deck.
I haven't missed the Lilianas at all. (Which is really saying something, I f-in love that card, I fought against Spooly when he initially started cutting it)
Delirium hasn't been any more of an issue than it always has been, because the bolts give you another way to apply pressure. Extra pushes would be rotting in hand against the decks you struggle with delirium anyway (the combo, aggro, and big mana decks) and Liliana is okay in those matchups, but she probably isn't helping with delirium. Against the aggro deck Lili is pretty bad and the bolts are obviously great. Push is good too, but bolt is even better since now the ubiquity of push has made 3 mana x/3s more prevalent. (Seriously mantis rider and spell queller are obnoxious). So even if you don't have delirium the extra 1 mana removal spells against aggro can let you control the board pretty well until you get delirium on.
And yes, delay has been perfect in this deck. I forgot the card existed until I saw it at the PT.
@Ayiluss- Looking at decks on the whole first page of mtggoldfish, bolt is on par or better against all of them other than Eldrazitron (Thoughtknot). I'm not exaggerating. I know that bolt doesn't kill shadow, but playing 4 bolts and some snaps gives you a really good shot of just bolting them out of game anyway which is even better than pushing their shadow.
@qel- I'm not going to GP Toronto, but I will be at SCG Indy next weekend.
@kodieyost- I'll get you all the way to the bolt side eventually!
2 bolts is a hedge towards some strategies.
4 bolts and snaps make a solid game plan.
I think the best way to decide which version you should play is to just make a comparison to the other archetype you're 'transforming' into. The core of the deck is really the same in all of them, its just the ~10 or so flex slots that change.
4c splash White turns into an Abzan deck.
4c splash Blue plays more like Grixis.
5c gets both at the cost of a sideboard slot and your whole sideboard is dedicated to just those two plans which can leave little room for other niche/hate cards.
So evaluate each of those and try to determine whether Grixis or Abzan would be better suited to your meta. Although I will say that if you don't have any sort of plan for the fair decks (Lingering Souls, a pile of Liliana's or Snap/Bolt in my case) then you're just going to get smashed. It could be reasonable to decide to fold to the fair decks (unlikely, but it depends upon your expected meta).
Mine plays like a legacy Delver deck. I think that's the path least explored so far because everyone has been so high on fatal push, which has pushed (har har) bolt to the wayside.
After additional testing, I think I'm closing in on the 75 I will be playing at Indy next weekend. The Bolts have been seriously amazing. I haven't missed the additional mainboard hard removal spells because instead of trying to control their board, I've just reached across the table and finished em off with bolts instead.
I saw someone playing delay at the PT as the additional counter of choice in the sideboard. It fits right in here with the increased focused on the tempo plan already (bolts and snaps) and it has been basically easy to cast counterspell in every game Ive played it so far.
Snap/Bolt plan seems like a reasonable way to deal with a lot of the problems you just listed. Bolts can help a lot with planeswalkers, end step deploying Snap after they use a sweeper, Snap/Stub for the expensive Commands. I haven't played against many kitchen finks lately. Hopefully you can either punish them or close out the game before they start activating Colonnades.
Like I said, don't turn into an Abzan deck and make the game go long. Close the game while disrupting their ability to stabilize.
Hmm. In the games I've played so far, drawing one random Bolt against the non-creature decks is pretty mediocre, but drawing a second one (or a snap) it easily takes a whole turn off the clock and then its great.
I wanted start here so I could see the cards enough in testing so I could actually evaluate them, but just a couple bolts and Snaps sounds like a normal build that is hedged towards humans and little creature decks. This many bolts and snaps makes the reach a reliable strategy for the deck to aim towards. Even in my testing against UWR control, snap/bolt has been quite strong to keep applying pressure, especially after they Supreme Verdict.
I might be too optimistic after the high of rediscovering bolt though, so you may be right in the end.
What would you replace them with in the maindeck with your changes? The 4th Inquisition, move a stubborn to the main, and add the first Grim Flayer?
I really can't suggest the 4 BBE+4 KCommand decklist enough.
But I can confirm that manamorphose is gas though.
Lastly, this deck also has felt like the most powerful jace shell I have played so far. Which seems silly. But if he is just a finisher in a control deck, he has only felt okay. He's a powerful card, sure. But he won't ever flip a board state, he really "only" gains more card advantage or finishes your opponent off if you're already ahead.
Death's Shadow doesn't often get into board states in which it's behind, it usually loses because of its lack of card advantage. Jace is yet another threat for our opponent to handle as it will draw us 3 cards a turn with 15 shuffle effects.
The BBE version feels insane in a grind in my testing though. That deck plays so many "copies" of BBE because of the traverses and kcommands. But that deck isn't great against combo and big mana because it has so little disruption.
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Grim Flayer
4 Street Wraith
3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Stubborn Denial
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Dismember
2 Fatal Push
2 Temur Battle Rage
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
1 Swamp
2 Delay
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Hostage Taker
1 Golgari Charm
1 Izzet Staticaster
Essentially I'm playing Snapcaster instead of planewalkers or lingering souls. And I trimmed some fatal pushes and decay for bolts so that I am better against the small creature decks and have more ways to close out a game against control and big mana. Against the decks you would think I would miss the fatal pushes (shadows) I play enough bolts and snaps that it's really hard for them to walk the line to avoid the bolts (much like we have to do against jeskai except we also play huge threats.)
And now Spooly has come around and agrees that we don't want to play long games and try to outvalue our opponent. Just kill them. Bolt does that while also being at least decent against almost every deck.
Delirium hasn't been any more of an issue than it always has been, because the bolts give you another way to apply pressure. Extra pushes would be rotting in hand against the decks you struggle with delirium anyway (the combo, aggro, and big mana decks) and Liliana is okay in those matchups, but she probably isn't helping with delirium. Against the aggro deck Lili is pretty bad and the bolts are obviously great. Push is good too, but bolt is even better since now the ubiquity of push has made 3 mana x/3s more prevalent. (Seriously mantis rider and spell queller are obnoxious). So even if you don't have delirium the extra 1 mana removal spells against aggro can let you control the board pretty well until you get delirium on.
And yes, delay has been perfect in this deck. I forgot the card existed until I saw it at the PT.
@Ayiluss- Looking at decks on the whole first page of mtggoldfish, bolt is on par or better against all of them other than Eldrazitron (Thoughtknot). I'm not exaggerating. I know that bolt doesn't kill shadow, but playing 4 bolts and some snaps gives you a really good shot of just bolting them out of game anyway which is even better than pushing their shadow.
@qel- I'm not going to GP Toronto, but I will be at SCG Indy next weekend.
2 bolts is a hedge towards some strategies.
4 bolts and snaps make a solid game plan.
4c splash White turns into an Abzan deck.
4c splash Blue plays more like Grixis.
5c gets both at the cost of a sideboard slot and your whole sideboard is dedicated to just those two plans which can leave little room for other niche/hate cards.
So evaluate each of those and try to determine whether Grixis or Abzan would be better suited to your meta. Although I will say that if you don't have any sort of plan for the fair decks (Lingering Souls, a pile of Liliana's or Snap/Bolt in my case) then you're just going to get smashed. It could be reasonable to decide to fold to the fair decks (unlikely, but it depends upon your expected meta).
Mine plays like a legacy Delver deck. I think that's the path least explored so far because everyone has been so high on fatal push, which has pushed (har har) bolt to the wayside.
I saw someone playing delay at the PT as the additional counter of choice in the sideboard. It fits right in here with the increased focused on the tempo plan already (bolts and snaps) and it has been basically easy to cast counterspell in every game Ive played it so far.
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Grim Flayer
4 Street Wraith
3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Stubborn Denial
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Dismember
2 Fatal Push
2 Temur Battle Rage
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
1 Swamp
2 Delay
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Hostage Taker
1 Golgari Charm
1 Izzet Staticaster
Like I said, don't turn into an Abzan deck and make the game go long. Close the game while disrupting their ability to stabilize.
I wanted start here so I could see the cards enough in testing so I could actually evaluate them, but just a couple bolts and Snaps sounds like a normal build that is hedged towards humans and little creature decks. This many bolts and snaps makes the reach a reliable strategy for the deck to aim towards. Even in my testing against UWR control, snap/bolt has been quite strong to keep applying pressure, especially after they Supreme Verdict.
I might be too optimistic after the high of rediscovering bolt though, so you may be right in the end.
What would you replace them with in the maindeck with your changes? The 4th Inquisition, move a stubborn to the main, and add the first Grim Flayer?
So uh... you gonna try out this version? ;D