Im also adding in veil of summer If anyone has experience/input on that.
I'd probably go with Thrun, Breaker of Silence / Carnage Tyrant if you're trying to get a one-up on control. Can't go wrong with either of the Thruns, but Thrun, the Last Troll can be walled by tokens where Breaker of Silence / Carnage Tyrant can't because of trample. Tyrannex Rex is more of a cheaty face / ramp / reanimator target, so I really wouldn't compare it to the other three.
I'm leaning towards either Goryo's Vengance for Atraxa / redundancy for Instant Speed Reanimation or Victimize to help provide redundancy for creature combos assembled via survival/ fauna.
Elspeth Knight-Errant > Gideon, Ally of Zendikar > The Wandering Emperor. I could see playing The Wandering Emperor over Gideon though to diversify a bit since Elspeth and Gideon are extremely similar.
Background: I am looking over the big mana rocks in my colorless section in a 360 Unpowered Cube. I know for sure I am including Grim Monolith and Coalition Relic, but am struggling with choosing the other two from the following list:
Personally I've cut Thran Dynamo / Hedron Archive a long time ago, so those would be my picks. I'm not a fan of 4-cmc cards that primarily just ramp. 3-cmc is my cutoff for that now.
I think Elspeth, Knight-Errant is the best mono colored planeswalker right now in my cube due to how important it is to win the initiative game. For the longest time I've always said that Elspeth, Knight-Errant >= Gideon, Ally of Zendikar in my cube (way before monarch / initiative were even a thing). With initiative running around now, my opinion has changed to Elspeth, Knight-Errant > Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. Being able to give things flying to steal the initiative is huge, and the aggressive initiative path of giving two +1/+1 counters and dealing 5 damage to your opponent's face means Elspeth can generally close out the game a turn faster than before.
Elspeth's ability to immediately attack planeswalkers from the air has also gone up in value given how many more dangerous planeswalkers there are now. Not to mention that Elspeth pairs best with white's top-shelf creatures (Stoneforge Mystic / Palace Jailer / White Plume Adventurer / Seasoned Dungeoneer).
- Gideon of the Trials vs Gideon Blackblade just comes down to wether or not you want to push aggro or control more. Blackblade favors aggro, Trials favors control.
- At 4-cmc, Elspeth > Gideon >= The Wandering Emperor > Serra
- 5-cmc and above, Elspeth >= The Eternal Wanderer > Gideon Jura
The odds of Liliana's Triumph's added benefits actually happening is very small compared to split second mattering. I'd imagine there are far more counterspells in most cubes than there are Liliana variants.
I think Timetwister / Wheel of Fortune are far and away the best wheel effects, especially for Hullbreacher type effects.
Any of those 2 + any Hullbreacher effect is generally a better A + B combo than Kiki-Twin, IMO. The individual parts of the draw 7 combo are generally better cards than Kiki-Twin's pieces, and 3-cmc draw 7 + Hullbreacher is cheaper than any Kiki-Twin combination.
Quote from jamis »
But I also don't know if Timetwister is too powerful for an otherwise unpowered cube. Wheel of Fortune has been fine, but I don't know if Timetwister is any different either due to being blue or due to the shuffle letting you redraw powerful spells that were in the graveyard.
They're both pretty equal, IMO. The difference between discard / shuffling hand and graveyard doesn't make one better or worse than the other in any significant way. I don't see any reason to run one but not the other aside from $$$.
I haven't tested Leveler yet, but I've heard good things. Still, I think the death trigger for Idol / Titan are generally much more useful than Leveler's unearth ability, especially with Sneak Attack.
-Thalia
-Stoneforge
-Charming Prince
-Wall of Omens
would you cut some of them for some of the missing ones?
Selfless Spirit / Luminarch Aspirant / Lion Sash / Adanto Vanguard / Seasoned Hallowblade are all very solid. Could make an argument for them over Charming Prince / Wall of Omens if you want more aggro options.
I'm already running Brainstorm, Preordain, Ponder, and Consider. Looking to add at least one more. This is for a 465 card Powered cube.
Thanks!
Cheers,
rant
Rankings can differ depending on context: they're all good on their own, it's just a matter of what you want to support more:
- Chart a Course if you need more discard outlets. This is probably a top 3 blue discard outlet in my book alongside Occult Epiphany / Jace, Vryn's Prodigy.
- Gitaxian Probe if you need more graveyard critical mass (Delve / Uro / etc) / spells matters / storm support.
- Consider > Opt, a card is generally more useful in your graveyard than the bottom of your library. That being said you can't go wrong with either of them. These would be my choice to support draw / go.
- Sleight of Hand digs the deepest at 1 mana, probably the best choice if you need to bolster combo in general.
I think Death-Greeter's Champion is the odd man out here, everything else you can argue with the order.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
Shriekmaw > Necron Deathmark > Junji, the Midnight Sky
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
I'd probably go with Thrun, Breaker of Silence / Carnage Tyrant if you're trying to get a one-up on control. Can't go wrong with either of the Thruns, but Thrun, the Last Troll can be walled by tokens where Breaker of Silence / Carnage Tyrant can't because of trample. Tyrannex Rex is more of a cheaty face / ramp / reanimator target, so I really wouldn't compare it to the other three.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
Persist and pair it with Unmarked Grave.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
Evolved Sleeper > Cult Conscript
Elspeth Knight-Errant > Gideon, Ally of Zendikar > The Wandering Emperor. I could see playing The Wandering Emperor over Gideon though to diversify a bit since Elspeth and Gideon are extremely similar.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
Personally I've cut Thran Dynamo / Hedron Archive a long time ago, so those would be my picks. I'm not a fan of 4-cmc cards that primarily just ramp. 3-cmc is my cutoff for that now.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
Elspeth's ability to immediately attack planeswalkers from the air has also gone up in value given how many more dangerous planeswalkers there are now. Not to mention that Elspeth pairs best with white's top-shelf creatures (Stoneforge Mystic / Palace Jailer / White Plume Adventurer / Seasoned Dungeoneer).
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
How I rank them based on mana cost:
- Gideon of the Trials vs Gideon Blackblade just comes down to wether or not you want to push aggro or control more. Blackblade favors aggro, Trials favors control.
- At 4-cmc, Elspeth > Gideon >= The Wandering Emperor > Serra
- 5-cmc and above, Elspeth >= The Eternal Wanderer > Gideon Jura
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
Pouch > Ornament = Celestus (can depend on how much your cube cares about day and night) > Relic
Gideon of the Trials > Gideon Jura
Pretty indifferent on Lorehold Command vs Otharri, Sun' Glory
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The odds of Liliana's Triumph's added benefits actually happening is very small compared to split second mattering. I'd imagine there are far more counterspells in most cubes than there are Liliana variants.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
Any of those 2 + any Hullbreacher effect is generally a better A + B combo than Kiki-Twin, IMO. The individual parts of the draw 7 combo are generally better cards than Kiki-Twin's pieces, and 3-cmc draw 7 + Hullbreacher is cheaper than any Kiki-Twin combination.
They're both pretty equal, IMO. The difference between discard / shuffling hand and graveyard doesn't make one better or worse than the other in any significant way. I don't see any reason to run one but not the other aside from $$$.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
I haven't tested Leveler yet, but I've heard good things. Still, I think the death trigger for Idol / Titan are generally much more useful than Leveler's unearth ability, especially with Sneak Attack.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
Selfless Spirit / Luminarch Aspirant / Lion Sash / Adanto Vanguard / Seasoned Hallowblade are all very solid. Could make an argument for them over Charming Prince / Wall of Omens if you want more aggro options.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
Rankings can differ depending on context: they're all good on their own, it's just a matter of what you want to support more:
- Chart a Course if you need more discard outlets. This is probably a top 3 blue discard outlet in my book alongside Occult Epiphany / Jace, Vryn's Prodigy.
- Gitaxian Probe if you need more graveyard critical mass (Delve / Uro / etc) / spells matters / storm support.
- Consider > Opt, a card is generally more useful in your graveyard than the bottom of your library. That being said you can't go wrong with either of them. These would be my choice to support draw / go.
- Sleight of Hand digs the deepest at 1 mana, probably the best choice if you need to bolster combo in general.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra