At 4cmc, and having either TBR and Stubborn Denial as possible cascade targets, I think that Traverse Shadow wouldn't want BBE on the deck's current form.
So, how do you guys think the unban of [card]Jace, the Mind Sculptor[\card] will affect GDS?
Pretty badly.
We're already weak against UWx Control Decks, and Jace just seals our coffin against it now that they can simply buy a lot of turns by bouncing our threats
How many Stubborn Denials have you been running MD and how many SB? On what kind of metagame it is better go with 3 MD and 1 SB and which ones do you think it is better to go 2-2 ?
The problem with Sultai is that you lose a lot in the sideboard, having acess only to Flaying Tendrils as a sweeper seems bad.
I think this could work but the best build for Tarmogoyf is still the Jund/5c Shadow deck.
Hey guys, I said I would test Opt over Thought Scour and here are my thoughts by now:
It DO makes the delve threats a little bit worse, specially early game since you can't cast them at turn 2 consistently without Street Wraith (Although there are times I did cast a t2 Angler ou t2 Tasigur with counter backup, but that means you depend on having two fetches and/or Street Wraith). They're still pretty good but become a bit slower which might be a problem sometimes.
On the other hand, it makes our draws A LOT SMOOTHER specially when we're searching for something (a threat, a land, an answer, etc.) which makes the deck grind a lot more and makes Snapcaster Mage way better.
My current thoughts on this thing is that you might need to: a) make the deck more grindy, which might not be where it wants to be with so many unfair decks running rampant, and b) I might want to try to run Liliana TLH maindeck again. I used to run 1 of her on my list a couple months ago because the local meta was too aggro and by the fact that she won me a lot of games all by herself. On that ocasion, she also helps to fill the graveyard with her -2 ability (although LotV does the same though)
I'm still gonna try it until mid January to have a deeper approach on which matchups gets worse by not playing Scour and how exactly it does or doesn't improve the deck. If anyone else is interested on trying it, please do post your results.
So, under the premise that you will face a diverse metagame:
1)Lightning Bolt: This card is very good in general. The problem is that sometimes it just feels underwhelming in contrast to the rest of the deck. It's versatile and helps in bad matchups like go wide and PW-based control(BGx and UWx). I think playing 1 is right more often than not, but 2 could be a stretch. Test them yourself and see, i think you will end up in a split with Push IF you really want 2 Bolts. 4 Push and 1 Bolt is my personal split, i consider 3-2 to be correct too. Also, 6 one-mana removals should be a little too much, even if you expect lots of creature based combo and go wide. This brings me to the next point.
2)TBR: This card is very good, even if we don't pack giant Goyfs, it still holds its value with DS because those two are that good. I play 1 MB, and 0 SB. I'm pretty sure 0 is incorrect, and more than 2 is also incorrect. 1-2 are the preferred copies, you can manage yourself whether you want them MB or SB. This card basically accomplishes much of what Bolt does against said strategies, but instead of answering, it just kills you opponent. There has to be a crapload of D&T to prefer the extra removal over TBR. TBR also make SBing very easy, if they play too much removal, it's out.
3)Liliana the Last hope: This is in my opinion a very good card in DS strategies. It helps in a variety of matchups which goes from Go Wide to Control and Midrange. It's really all over the place, which makes your SB bigger for broader applications. I think this card deserves a nice 1-2 of in the SB, along LOTV(which probably should be a 2-3 of).
4)Explosives: I've been on and off this card. It's lights out when it's good, and medium to inefficient otherwise. There are few decks that get completly wrecked by it(like Bogles) but it does a good impression of other good cards like By Force and Izzet Staticaster, Dreadbore and whatnot. It remains in my list of cards that stretch your SB large enough to cover a bigger meta(which seems very important in nowadays Modern), which is why i would put it 1-2 in my SB if i can't predict the metagame to some extent.
Other than that, 2-of Dismember without TBR is going to give you a headache, because Dismember doesn't like long games in GDS(because of Snapcaster Mage). I'm still skeptical of "Battle Rage Grixis" builds since we pack less punch that our Green counterpart, but we grind much better. This has been in my opinion the biggest challenge Grixis Shadow players have had since its inception. Players can simply not decide whether it's right to go all in, or maintain a control approach. The metagame in Modern changes too fast and this led to people believe that being all in was the right approach, but i'm not sure it's right, i think the controlling nature of the Grixis shard is what makes this deck good, right now i'm trying all builds and haven't made a choice yet.
If you have any other question i'm happy to help and give you my opinion.
What are your thoughts about Opt and how some lists are cutting Serum Visions for it ?
Is Kolaghan's Command still maindeckable on the current metagame ? What about LotV MD?
What do you think that are the most efficient way to adapt Grixis Shadow to the current metagame?
There is no need to reinvent the wheel. The deck plays delve threat and Snapcaster mage, it follows that Thought Scour is an essential part of the strategy. If you remove them you have to remove Tasigur and Angler and now it's not the same deck. Spare yourself the trouble.
Actually, You're trading in a little raw speed (Like a T2 Angler) and delve selection for stronger card selection. It's worth giving a try to see how much it affects the whole delve concept. You DON'T need to cut the Delve Threats at all.
@AcademyRuins - The problem with YP Is that it doesn't trigger Ferocious, of which is a key to protect our threats.
The ideal additional threat would need to be a somewhat huge creature with a low CMC (Frost Walker is something close to it but too fragile.) Tarmogoyf is an option, yes, but I think You're better of playing 5C Shadow if you want to play it.
I really agree with this, going to play test it also, thought scour has felt great at times but the thing is do we really want to be putting our delve threats out quick? The grixis version compared to the other versions; except esper version, feels more controlling than aggroish.
Tell us how it goes as well.
On a few playtests I feel that it makes our delve threats slower but greatly improves our draw quality without spending 2 more slots to cantrips. But I am only gonna be sure about its results and how much it affects the deck after playing 2 or 3 weeks with it.
@Ayiluss - I really think 14 cantrips are too much air for GDS, so I think it's okay to cut 1 opt or 1 visions for TBR.
After three long weeks playing other formats, I am back.
I want to try to cut the Scours entirely, playing a full set of Opt, Visions and Street Wraith.
Yeah, Call me crazy
I just REALLY wanna see how it goes and on which it improves the deck or makes it worse.
Thread seems useless if people just want to discuss brewed up versions of Grixis Shadow
Opt has seemed underwhelming in the deck, I think the pro-tour players will probably have a lot of people realize serum visions is just better
People gather here to share their ideas and have a feedback about them as well as discussing the archetype itself, So I don't see the problem of people sharing their personal brews at all.
Also, the metagame changed, people are trying to find new ways to adapt to it or trying new brews to see where it leads.
I am interested on a sideboard guide though, I've got one but it feels outdated.
Played a 50 man tournament last saturday and went 3-2-1.
Played a list with 2 TBR main, 2 Tombstalker, 19 lands, 0 opt, 1 Liliana TLH main and 2 Pia & Kiran Nallar on the Sideboard
1-2 vs Skred And Taxes
1-2 vs Jund Midrange
2-1 vs Jeskai Tempo
2-0 vs Burn
2-0 vs Auras
1-1 vs Counters Company
I draw with the company deck because I was too stubborn to concede when I should, and I really enjoyed playing Tombstalker, it won me games that I would've lost with angler such as the Auras, Skred and Jeskai Games.
Pia & Kiran was great against eh Jeskai deck but I couldn't test her much. 4cmc hurts a little, although I admit that we want her on the games that usually go long.
Do you have situations where you cannot cast Tombstalker :
- because of its higher mana cost than Gurmag's (not enough cards to delve)?
- because of its BB in casting cost?
- because you need to keep U open to protect it with Denial so you have to lose a turn to cast it?
- Yes. You will usually always cast Stalker one turn later than Gurmag Angler because it costs 2 + delve rather than 1 plus delve
- No. With a 19-land manabase I've never had issues on casting him due to not having BB. Although I played with 2 Swamps to avoid ghost quarter/blood moon locks.
- Yes. specially early-game.
The thing is: Stalker costs 1 more than Angler and It has its downsides, I admit it and I am okay with living with those downsides.
Sometimes this one turn might cost me the game ? Yeah, I agree. But having a massive flying body is something that is worth on its own in a lot of matchups.
What is the general consensus on the number of Stubborn Denials on main deck ?
I am playing with 3 atm, and it feels great to have when you're ahead on the board but it is a bad topdeck when you are behind.
Played a 50 man tournament last saturday and went 3-2-1.
Played a list with 2 TBR main, 2 Tombstalker, 19 lands, 0 opt, 1 Liliana TLH main and 2 Pia & Kiran Nallar on the Sideboard
1-2 vs Skred And Taxes
1-2 vs Jund Midrange
2-1 vs Jeskai Tempo
2-0 vs Burn
2-0 vs Auras
1-1 vs Counters Company
I draw with the company deck because I was too stubborn to concede when I should, and I really enjoyed playing Tombstalker, it won me games that I would've lost with angler such as the Auras, Skred and Jeskai Games.
Pia & Kiran was great against eh Jeskai deck but I couldn't test her much. 4cmc hurts a little, although I admit that we want her on the games that usually go long.
By the way, has anyone tested Pia and Kiran Nalaar yet?
I've been advocating 2 P&K in the SB for months - well before people started trying Young Pyromancer. It allows you to fight Lingering Souls, trumps midrange matchups against opponents that don't have Lingering Souls, is a threat that doesn't rely on the GY vs. UWx control (which will typically have RiP) and also demands a sweeper on its own, allows you to block Etched Champion and random dinky fliers vs. Affinity, etc. The card is great in GDS and criminally underplayed.
Also, it requires RR and 4 mana total. Can we reliably have this kind of mana total?
I didn't have much of a problem in the 19 land manabase with 3 red sources. You only bring it in against matchups that go long, and maybe against affinity where you have a million ways to slow them down and you highly value the colorless tokens.
You see better 2 pia and kira in he side that 3 lingering and 1 godless? To play against humans and creature decks sometimes I feel that 18 lands are too few to play more midrange / control. The idea of Pia I like but I feel that we would have to go up to 19 lands.
Splashing Lingering Souls would be better at fighting most of the battles that you want to fight with P&K, but it takes an extra SB slot due to the land (or destabilizes your manabase by replacing a land with a Shrine MD), and sometimes you'll mill your one white source with Thought Scour.
I'm not too fond of the 18 land lists with 2 Opts on top of the usual 12 cantrips anyway. Too much air. I prefer 19 lands.
While a bit clunky, i kinda like Engineered Explosives against Humans as most of their important stuff has a cmc of 2 or 3.
EE against Thalia sounds reeeeeal awkward. If you're going to pay 5 mana to take out their 2 drops, at that point Damnation starts looking a lot more attractive.
Gonna try 2 P&K Nalaar on my sideboard today.
I agree with you that 19 lands and fewer cantrips seems like the best choice for GDS atm. I've been testing with 10 cantrips and more removals/Lilianas.
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Pretty badly.
We're already weak against UWx Control Decks, and Jace just seals our coffin against it now that they can simply buy a lot of turns by bouncing our threats
Thoughts ?
I am not premium so I can't read it but there it is: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/36337_Liliana-Sucks-And-Other-Observations.html
I think this could work but the best build for Tarmogoyf is still the Jund/5c Shadow deck.
Hey guys, I said I would test Opt over Thought Scour and here are my thoughts by now:
It DO makes the delve threats a little bit worse, specially early game since you can't cast them at turn 2 consistently without Street Wraith (Although there are times I did cast a t2 Angler ou t2 Tasigur with counter backup, but that means you depend on having two fetches and/or Street Wraith). They're still pretty good but become a bit slower which might be a problem sometimes.
On the other hand, it makes our draws A LOT SMOOTHER specially when we're searching for something (a threat, a land, an answer, etc.) which makes the deck grind a lot more and makes Snapcaster Mage way better.
My current thoughts on this thing is that you might need to: a) make the deck more grindy, which might not be where it wants to be with so many unfair decks running rampant, and b) I might want to try to run Liliana TLH maindeck again. I used to run 1 of her on my list a couple months ago because the local meta was too aggro and by the fact that she won me a lot of games all by herself. On that ocasion, she also helps to fill the graveyard with her -2 ability (although LotV does the same though)
I'm still gonna try it until mid January to have a deeper approach on which matchups gets worse by not playing Scour and how exactly it does or doesn't improve the deck. If anyone else is interested on trying it, please do post your results.
Thoughts ?
What are your thoughts about Opt and how some lists are cutting Serum Visions for it ?
Is Kolaghan's Command still maindeckable on the current metagame ? What about LotV MD?
What do you think that are the most efficient way to adapt Grixis Shadow to the current metagame?
Actually, You're trading in a little raw speed (Like a T2 Angler) and delve selection for stronger card selection. It's worth giving a try to see how much it affects the whole delve concept. You DON'T need to cut the Delve Threats at all.
@AcademyRuins - The problem with YP Is that it doesn't trigger Ferocious, of which is a key to protect our threats.
The ideal additional threat would need to be a somewhat huge creature with a low CMC (Frost Walker is something close to it but too fragile.) Tarmogoyf is an option, yes, but I think You're better of playing 5C Shadow if you want to play it.
Tell us how it goes as well.
On a few playtests I feel that it makes our delve threats slower but greatly improves our draw quality without spending 2 more slots to cantrips. But I am only gonna be sure about its results and how much it affects the deck after playing 2 or 3 weeks with it.
@Ayiluss - I really think 14 cantrips are too much air for GDS, so I think it's okay to cut 1 opt or 1 visions for TBR.
I want to try to cut the Scours entirely, playing a full set of Opt, Visions and Street Wraith.
Yeah, Call me crazy
I just REALLY wanna see how it goes and on which it improves the deck or makes it worse.
People gather here to share their ideas and have a feedback about them as well as discussing the archetype itself, So I don't see the problem of people sharing their personal brews at all.
Also, the metagame changed, people are trying to find new ways to adapt to it or trying new brews to see where it leads.
I am interested on a sideboard guide though, I've got one but it feels outdated.
- Yes. You will usually always cast Stalker one turn later than Gurmag Angler because it costs 2 + delve rather than 1 plus delve
- No. With a 19-land manabase I've never had issues on casting him due to not having BB. Although I played with 2 Swamps to avoid ghost quarter/blood moon locks.
- Yes. specially early-game.
The thing is: Stalker costs 1 more than Angler and It has its downsides, I admit it and I am okay with living with those downsides.
Sometimes this one turn might cost me the game ? Yeah, I agree. But having a massive flying body is something that is worth on its own in a lot of matchups.
What is the general consensus on the number of Stubborn Denials on main deck ?
I am playing with 3 atm, and it feels great to have when you're ahead on the board but it is a bad topdeck when you are behind.
How many of these do you guys play on maindeck ?
Played a list with 2 TBR main, 2 Tombstalker, 19 lands, 0 opt, 1 Liliana TLH main and 2 Pia & Kiran Nallar on the Sideboard
1-2 vs Skred And Taxes
1-2 vs Jund Midrange
2-1 vs Jeskai Tempo
2-0 vs Burn
2-0 vs Auras
1-1 vs Counters Company
I draw with the company deck because I was too stubborn to concede when I should, and I really enjoyed playing Tombstalker, it won me games that I would've lost with angler such as the Auras, Skred and Jeskai Games.
Pia & Kiran was great against eh Jeskai deck but I couldn't test her much. 4cmc hurts a little, although I admit that we want her on the games that usually go long.
Gonna try 2 P&K Nalaar on my sideboard today.
I agree with you that 19 lands and fewer cantrips seems like the best choice for GDS atm. I've been testing with 10 cantrips and more removals/Lilianas.