[quote from="Spooly »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/tier-1-modern/774240-grixis-deaths-shadow?comment=1969"]
I've been thinking about this very thing: Both lists are weak to Graveyard hate and we DO need some kind o threat that isn't.
My issue with 5c Shadow is exactly that I think it is a lot more vulnerable to both graveyard and land hate...
Traverse is a great card alongside Shadows and even Goyfs, but I am note sure if this is where we want to be as Shadow players since it doesn't do anything when you've facing a leyline/RIP;
I don't think Grixis is meaningfully better vs. GY hate. Grixis has Snapcaster + delve creatures, Jund/5 color has Goyf + Traverse. Grixis has the edge vs. Rest in Peace because sometimes you can get a delve creature into play before it resolves, and a small edge from Snapcaster doing a little more than Traverse when under RiP or Leyline. 5 color has the edge vs. most non RiP graveyard hate because Goyf can rely on the opponent's graveyard - Leyline and Nihil Spellbomb being the two most common. So maybe 5 color is a little worse vs. graveyard hate on net, but there's not really much of a difference.
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I understand your point of view.
What I mean is that Travesre the Ulvenwald is pretty much a dead draw against GY hate and, therefore, weaker vs. GY hate than Snapcaster that, on the very least, can trade with a creature or apply some early pressure. I agree that both are miserable but Traverse loses a lot of value when facing GY hate.
I'm wondering if we could have some kind of 4-5 color list running both Goyf, Shadow and maybe some fewer number of Snappy/Traverse.
If graveyard/or all in threat is what you are concern about, why not just play young pyromancer in the main instead of angeler?
First, because it doesn't turn on Stubborn Denials, which is a huge upside of every threat DS decks want to play.
Second, Pyromancer is counterintuictive with the deck's line of play: You want to first disrupt your opponent and then land a threat. Pyromancer is better if you drop it first and then disrupt your opponent through removal and countermagic.
I spend some time in the beginning talking about Grixis Shadow, so it might be of interest to people here.
Your article says:
I won’t go so far as to say that 5 Color Shadow is strictly better than Grixis Shadow. There are two main advantages that Grixis has over 5 Color – resistance to Fatal Push and Abrupt Decay, and better against mana denial. If the format is loaded with Blood Moons, Grixis or maybe some other three color build is the better bet. If the format is loaded with Fatal Pushes and Abrupt Decays, delve creatures might as well have hexproof. But under most circumstances, if you think Grixis is the better build, I recommend thinking about how you might build 5 Color Shadow to accomplish the same goals. On the other hand, there’s probably a lot of space to experiment with adding colors to Grixis Shadow. Or adding Snapcaster Mage to 5 Color Shadow. At some point the decks just blend into each other and it’s not clear where to draw the line between the two. Both decks do have trouble with dedicated graveyard hate, so if the format is loaded with Rest in Peace, it’s probably time to juke and just Valakut or Affinity them. This is the secret vulnerability of the modern format: if you find a legit threat to pair with Death’s Shadow that does not depend on the graveyard, you probably just broke the format. No, it’s not Delver of Secrets. I said legit threat.
I've been thinking about this very thing: Both lists are weak to Graveyard hate and we DO need some kind o threat that isn't.
My issue with 5c Shadow is exactly that I think it is a lot more vulnerable to both graveyard and land hate than its 3 color counterpart, aside from its natural resistance to Fatal Push/Decay.
My issue with Grixis Shadow is the very same issue you have: Sometimes we spend too much turns doing absolutely nothing because we don't have threat.
Traverse is a great card alongside Shadows and even Goyfs, but I am note sure if this is where we want to be as Shadow players since it doesn't do anything when you've facing a leyline/RIP;
I've been playing Grixis Shadow for the past 3 months, made 2 top 8s and a top 16 on regular events running different kinds of lists switching between the number of Fatal Pushes, Lightning Bolts, TBR and Kommands for a while.
One thing I can say is that the archetype made so many huge waves on Modern that the entire format had to adapt to it. I see quite regularly around here decks that tries its best to go wide, Death & Taxes variants and even the affinity players started to run more Etched Champions on maindeck so that they don't carelessly for running out of creatures. I've also seen opponents running lists such as Skred Red, RW Enchantments, etc.
Even on top tables, you can feel the waves that Shadow caused: Eldrazi Tron is one of the best decks in the format due to its capacity to run maindeck Chalice and still present a strong stream of threats.
Well, I'll try to get straight to the point: Decks adapted to Death's Shadow and I think the decks needs to adapt to them. I've been playing different lists almost every tournament I play, last week I even tried a 4-color variant splashing green for Decay nd Traverse, running only 4 Shadows as kill condition (Of which I fully regreted as soon as my opponent landed a Rest in Peace and I had 2 Traverse in hand), I've even tried more controlish builds running Cryptic Command and more Kolaghans. All of the gave me different results for different kinds of strategy.
So, I'd like to open up a few questions, as I feel that the more I'm testing the deck, the more I'm deviating it from its original list and leaning towards other options.
First and foremost, Most times i feel that 4 Delve threats are too much: Having two on the opening hand with few ways to use them at least on turn 3 feels really bad and most times it's a mulligan unless I have Scour and/or fetches or discard in hand.
As much as I believe that we need 8 threats, I am not sure if the really need the full 4. Perhaps we could look into other options ?
And since I'm talking about cutting delve threats, I'd like to say that I have a REAAALLY bad relationship with Thought Scour. It's like a recipe for frustration.
I mean, I understand all the pros of running it: Ramps out delve threats, fills the graveyard for Snapcaster, sometimes might save you from bad topdecking (such as he might simply take away 2 great answers/threats and give you a useless land or vice versa). But, if we cut 2 delve threts, could we run Opt instead ? We already have tons of fetches, discards and removals to fill out the graveyard and Opt only makes that difference if you REALLY need a threat by turn 2 (of which I admit, it happens quite often, specially against combo). I've been trying a list running only 2 Tasigurs as delve theats and I've been quite pleased with Opt.
Talking about threats, altough not a fast one, Liliana TLH has been making quite a great work on my lists as it stabilishes a strong late game clock, helps me replay my creature and refill my graveyard for either Snap or Tasigur/Angler. Also, her ultimate is the only one in a modern legal planeswalker with a reasonable cost that wins the game by itself. I've been running two, and the only MU I regret seeing her is against linear combo decks.
Another thing that I've been thinking is running 3 or 4 Lightning Bolts and 2 or 3 Fatal Pushes alongside Terinate.
Bolt doesn't kill a lot of threats that some of the top tiers but it works pretty well against the recent aggro decks on the surge and estabilishes a new clock for the opponent since you have potentially 6 to 8 bolt effects with Snapcaster Mage. Bolt Snap Bolt is incredibly threatening to a lot of players and helps you on both stabilizing the board and presenting a clock. Also, it kills Mirran Crusader.
On the number of disruptions. What are the thoughs on an additional IoK or two ? Most games we want discard on early turns and it also helps to protect or threats by giving more information before we land them. On the downside, discard is a bad topdeck, specially against agressive builds.
Well, that's all I've been thinking about. I'd like to hear your thoughts since I feel that I'm pushing the deck towards a lot of directions but I am not entirely sure of where the deck wants to be. I am sure we want, at least, the following
I understand your point of view.
What I mean is that Travesre the Ulvenwald is pretty much a dead draw against GY hate and, therefore, weaker vs. GY hate than Snapcaster that, on the very least, can trade with a creature or apply some early pressure. I agree that both are miserable but Traverse loses a lot of value when facing GY hate.
I'm wondering if we could have some kind of 4-5 color list running both Goyf, Shadow and maybe some fewer number of Snappy/Traverse.
First, because it doesn't turn on Stubborn Denials, which is a huge upside of every threat DS decks want to play.
Second, Pyromancer is counterintuictive with the deck's line of play: You want to first disrupt your opponent and then land a threat. Pyromancer is better if you drop it first and then disrupt your opponent through removal and countermagic.
Your article says:
I've been thinking about this very thing: Both lists are weak to Graveyard hate and we DO need some kind o threat that isn't.
My issue with 5c Shadow is exactly that I think it is a lot more vulnerable to both graveyard and land hate than its 3 color counterpart, aside from its natural resistance to Fatal Push/Decay.
My issue with Grixis Shadow is the very same issue you have: Sometimes we spend too much turns doing absolutely nothing because we don't have threat.
Traverse is a great card alongside Shadows and even Goyfs, but I am note sure if this is where we want to be as Shadow players since it doesn't do anything when you've facing a leyline/RIP;
I've been playing Grixis Shadow for the past 3 months, made 2 top 8s and a top 16 on regular events running different kinds of lists switching between the number of Fatal Pushes, Lightning Bolts, TBR and Kommands for a while.
One thing I can say is that the archetype made so many huge waves on Modern that the entire format had to adapt to it. I see quite regularly around here decks that tries its best to go wide, Death & Taxes variants and even the affinity players started to run more Etched Champions on maindeck so that they don't carelessly for running out of creatures. I've also seen opponents running lists such as Skred Red, RW Enchantments, etc.
Even on top tables, you can feel the waves that Shadow caused: Eldrazi Tron is one of the best decks in the format due to its capacity to run maindeck Chalice and still present a strong stream of threats.
Well, I'll try to get straight to the point: Decks adapted to Death's Shadow and I think the decks needs to adapt to them. I've been playing different lists almost every tournament I play, last week I even tried a 4-color variant splashing green for Decay nd Traverse, running only 4 Shadows as kill condition (Of which I fully regreted as soon as my opponent landed a Rest in Peace and I had 2 Traverse in hand), I've even tried more controlish builds running Cryptic Command and more Kolaghans. All of the gave me different results for different kinds of strategy.
So, I'd like to open up a few questions, as I feel that the more I'm testing the deck, the more I'm deviating it from its original list and leaning towards other options.
First and foremost, Most times i feel that 4 Delve threats are too much: Having two on the opening hand with few ways to use them at least on turn 3 feels really bad and most times it's a mulligan unless I have Scour and/or fetches or discard in hand.
As much as I believe that we need 8 threats, I am not sure if the really need the full 4. Perhaps we could look into other options ?
And since I'm talking about cutting delve threats, I'd like to say that I have a REAAALLY bad relationship with Thought Scour. It's like a recipe for frustration.
I mean, I understand all the pros of running it: Ramps out delve threats, fills the graveyard for Snapcaster, sometimes might save you from bad topdecking (such as he might simply take away 2 great answers/threats and give you a useless land or vice versa). But, if we cut 2 delve threts, could we run Opt instead ? We already have tons of fetches, discards and removals to fill out the graveyard and Opt only makes that difference if you REALLY need a threat by turn 2 (of which I admit, it happens quite often, specially against combo). I've been trying a list running only 2 Tasigurs as delve theats and I've been quite pleased with Opt.
Talking about threats, altough not a fast one, Liliana TLH has been making quite a great work on my lists as it stabilishes a strong late game clock, helps me replay my creature and refill my graveyard for either Snap or Tasigur/Angler. Also, her ultimate is the only one in a modern legal planeswalker with a reasonable cost that wins the game by itself. I've been running two, and the only MU I regret seeing her is against linear combo decks.
Another thing that I've been thinking is running 3 or 4 Lightning Bolts and 2 or 3 Fatal Pushes alongside Terinate.
Bolt doesn't kill a lot of threats that some of the top tiers but it works pretty well against the recent aggro decks on the surge and estabilishes a new clock for the opponent since you have potentially 6 to 8 bolt effects with Snapcaster Mage. Bolt Snap Bolt is incredibly threatening to a lot of players and helps you on both stabilizing the board and presenting a clock. Also, it kills Mirran Crusader.
On the number of disruptions. What are the thoughs on an additional IoK or two ? Most games we want discard on early turns and it also helps to protect or threats by giving more information before we land them. On the downside, discard is a bad topdeck, specially against agressive builds.
Well, that's all I've been thinking about. I'd like to hear your thoughts since I feel that I'm pushing the deck towards a lot of directions but I am not entirely sure of where the deck wants to be. I am sure we want, at least, the following
8 threats
3-4 Snapcaster
6-7 Discard
2-3 Denials
12-14 cantrips
8-10 removal and/or interactive spells such as Kommand
0-2 TBR
18-19 lands.
I am just not sure on what or how we should build our decks or adapt to the current metagame with GDS. So please, help me out with this one