Just found two cards that I hadn't heard of before, both of which are hardly/not mentioned at all in either thread, and both of which seem to have pretty amazing synergy with our deck as well as with each other. Might be worth running 1x of each in side against grindy control matchups and frankly any other decks that tax us, counter us, remove our creatures, or drag the game out past turn 5.
Our deck could use just a touch of tech I think. For those of you who don't run a tech slot mainboard, I really must insist you try it. When you don't need it, its still a very nice to have, and when you do, you are very, very glad you have it. I can't tell you how many times Bow has helped be stabilize against burn, and these two are the same CMC as bow with equally as powerful effects.
Rhonas's Monument - I currently mainboard a bow of Nylea, and this might be taking the slot. We already run a low curve, but Monument maximizes the benefits of that curve, leaving open mana for pump/hex/Treetop/spell pierce, getting in two creatures where we would have only had enough for one, or even getting in 1 drops for free. Plus, the added pump and trample is just really, really great.
Lifecrafter's Bestiary - This one was actually in one of the pro lists from last year, and the more I look at it, the more I like it. Its a ton of value packed into one card, just like Bow and Monument. The first half of the card gives us the power of selective topdecking, and the second half gives us the ability to draw anytime we play a creature. Considering over a third of our deck is cheap creatures, Bestiary suddenly becomes very, very relevant, and especially for grindy matchups where we tend to lose gas. Seems to be better than Shapers' Sanctuary, and certainly better than Evolutionary Leap: its proactive. Also, it works against removal and counterspells equally, in that we still get the card if the creature is countered.
I know finding room for both of these, and even then, the chances of getting them both out is pretty unlikely, but I'll be testing out these two alongside Bow as a 1x in my 75 for a good while.
@phaircaron That's quite the track record. It looks like you're moving towards the Revolt build of our beloved stompy deck. If you're interested in an upgrade path, some cards you might want to look at are:
Green Belt Rampager to trigger Revolt more consistently for Renegade, and make E1 stupidly huge on T2/3. I am currently running him in place of Leatherbacks and have not missed them once. The explosiveness you get from E1 and the ability to pay the cost for a 3 drop spread out between turns is not to be laughed at. Especially since it looks like you're already trying to run lean on lands. I will probably still run 1 of these even after getting the Steel Leaf Champions because it is just that big of a difference in the early turns. One of the biggest differences I've noticed has been, unlike a normal 3 drop, the mana is paid in 3 separate casts. So if the opponent is holding removal/counterspell, they have to decide whether they want to keep me from evolving again but have more open mana for something else, or let me tap out for the 3 drop but get two more evolve triggers out of E1.
Tireless Tracker is a clutch 3 drop in a Revolt deck, with all the landfall the fetchlands give you, you'll be swimming in Clues for card draw and counters on Tracker. Though looking again at how few lands you're running, I would probably only run 1. Plus Scooze is arguably cheaper to get counters for. Tracker just gives you another avenue and more options.
There's a lot of back and forth about Rhonas The Indomitable, but honestly he is an absolute beast, and the best asset this deck has. Attach Rancor to him for extra value.
Nature's Way - thanks to deathtouch, this card turns your Renegades and Rhonas into cheap removal. Not instant speed, but a real monster in its own right. Precombat removal with the added benefit of a trampling deathtoucher to attack with that still gets to block next turn is insane value for 2 mana.
Has anyone come up on Bogles? Other than their Kor, we cannot use vines to stop them from casting enchants, and they just grow so much faster. Once they get that enchant which gives their creature protection from other creatures, its GG. I have yet to beat one.
I'm thinking Back to Nature is a natural SB answer but I'm wondering if anyone has thought of anything more interesting, maybe something that removes hexproof, or grants shroud, or otherwise disrupts their boardstate strategy.
Also, on the topic of sideboarding against burn/Jund, I think 3x Kitchen finks is the best all around answer. Baloth is better against Jund but expensive to cast against Burn, and the lifegain spells are nice but each Finks nets 4 health on its own, and comes with a body which discourages blocking much in the way of Strootgeist.
While we don't get to discard finks onto the battlefield like Baloth, we do get the persist+lifegain against Liliana's neg. Plus we still have Needle to deal with walkers, and the Sorcerous Spyglass is a new one on me. Interestingly, the way it reads seems to allude that you can look at their hand, and nameany card, even one not in their hand, which seems like a straight upgrade from Needle to me.
1x Pulse of Murasa and 2x Finks might be a good mix as well, to try for a shot at getting another Finks back with a lifegain uppercut on top.
What's that math's definition of 'normally'? > 50% ?
The tables I've seen have a 64% chance of hitting a third land drop on T3 on a 20-land deck. Is that some magically acceptable number? Where more than a third of the time, you won't hit it?
Where can I find tables like these? I'm very interested in the maths.
edit: Found something.. If that table is correct, and I assume it is, it actually makes me questions why we run so few lands...22 seems like the optimal number, and really the bare minimum if our sideboard has 4 drops.
Running 22 as default would also allow us to take out a land if we don't sideboard in any 4 drops at all, and while that means running one card less somewhere else...lets face it, no one is running lands in their sideboards. Its better to have the land you need for 4 drops with the ability to have an extra slot for sideboarding if you don't use them, than it is to draw your 4 drop and be mana screwed.
I really thought about it but never tested, it seems a viable way to face heavy control decks. But it is very situational cause it will work only against counterspells. For example if your opponent has a push or a path they won't cast it until their turn, but in that case your protection spells will cost 3 more to protect your creature and that's really bad.
That is a good point, the detriment to our strategy is too great to really justify running it.
Another thought, If we're running 4 drops in the sideboard, should we be running 22 lands? And has anyone experimented with a leaner version with less 3 drops and 20 lands? I'm just running 21 by default but I'm trying to figure out when I can/should be running 20 or 22.
Has anyone tested Defense Grid as an anti-control sideboard? Seems like it would be pretty good against several decks that we have problems with, but especially control decks.
I run 1x Heroic Intervention and 1x Shapers Sanctuary right now, still testing out which I want to run 2x of, but Heroic Intervention has given me a couple of clutch plays so far.
Those two cards really shouldn't be compared as equivalent slots. Heroic Intervention is for sweepers and is overcosted for spot removal (see Vines ad Blossoming Defense). Shapers' Sanctuary is for heavy spot removal and doesn't work on sweepers as they don't target.
While they obviously do different things, if you think about the sideboard in terms of how many slots you can dedicate to each type of match-up, the two kinda are equivalent, because they both generally come in against control (and sometimes midrange) decks. However, I always run some number of both, currently 2+2.
He's right, I meant Evolutionary Leap not Shapers. I've settled on 2x Heroic Intervention though.
Two tuskers/avatars and an Aspect/vines is enough to play ghalta for 2, and how often do we have more than 6 power with a pump in hand by turn 3? I almost always do.
While Rhonas doesn't rely on creature power to be played, Ghalta doesn't rely on creature power/mana in order to swing every turn, and as a 12/12-trample you're almost guarenteed to have some unblockable damage or at least force a double/triple block to stop it. Which definitely could make him worth testing some more. I'll be doing it all night tonight and will let you know what i think.
He is weak to destroy/exile effects...and I wonder whether he's technically a target for Fatal push or not? Either way I think we can agree he's definitely the more explosive play, though not the most resilient one.
You yourself said your creatures get removed a lot. You're not the only one though. Most people playing Stompy face a lot of removal. But this means that when faced with removal, which will almost always happen, you won't be able to cast Ghalta. Half the time it's just a dead card in your hand, and what you're imagining is the absolute best-case scenario. Imagine the worst case scenario.
Think about it like this:
-You have a good hand that will get Ghalta out on turn 4. This is pretty reasonable since you have Aspect in hand with a bunch of on-curve creatures. You're assuming none of them are removed in the early stages of the game. Already, you're being quite optimistic.
-You opponent plays Thoughtseize. They're not even going to take Ghalta. They will take Aspect or something that will stop you from casting it. They know it's in your hand and they will use just enough removal from preventing you from ever playing it.
-The game plays on. At some point, through discard and removal, Ghalta is the only creature left in your hand. Maybe you drew another pump spell. Any creature you play will be removed because your opponent has been given plenty of time to draw more removal while you were doing nothing.
-Wouldn't you wish that you had another creature in this scenario?
Yes, not every deck you play against will be Jund. But I guarantee that every deck out there will have many ways of stopping you from playing that card. But by all means, play a copy in your sideboard. Some decks don't play removal. You might want to take advantage of that. But don't play Ghalta in the main. Please.
The same could be said about Rhonas. Black hand destruction is one of our worst matchups as it is so its important to keep that in mind. Why don't we just run 4x Leatherback? Because Rhonas has situational advantages and when we can pull them off, we can win games. The only decks I've had problems getting Ghalta out against were monoblue control and decks with hand destruction. The same is true of Rhonas, and frankly I have an equally hard time keeping Rhonas relevant because as soon as I drop him, my strategy is clear and my creatures just get picked off until Rhonas is nothing more than a statue on the battlefield. When I land Ghalta, its always a surprise and they have +/- a turn to deal with him or its GG. Also, for whatever reason Ghalta normally comes out at 2 mana or less for me, which saves me plenty of mana that turn to protect with hexproof pumps if I need to, rather than having to risk waiting another turn to drop Rhonas with a pump spell to protect him from Path, or hoping that if I activate Rhonas to pump another creature, I'll still have enough to hexproof if they Path.
Of course, its important to remember that I run more hexproof in my build than the norm, so I can counter most removal fairly consistently. It's always fun to drop Vines/Blossoming on their Path/Push.
I run 1x Heroic Intervention and 1x Shapers Sanctuary right now, still testing out which I want to run 2x of, but Heroic Intervention has given me a couple of clutch plays so far.
Overall, I've found that its better to play instants over enchantments or other permanents (Prowling Serpopard), because though you only get one usage, it normally comes as a total surprise and allows you to gain the upperhand when you want to. Plus, permanents can be strategically played around or even targeted for removal. For this reason I run Guttural Response over Prowling Serpopard, and I'm leaning towards Heroic Intervention over Shapers Sanctuary and Evolutionary Leap.
Two tuskers/avatars and an Aspect/vines is enough to play ghalta for 2, and how often do we have more than 6 power with a pump in hand by turn 3? I almost always do.
While Rhonas doesn't rely on creature power to be played, Ghalta doesn't rely on creature power/mana in order to swing every turn, and as a 12/12-trample you're almost guarenteed to have some unblockable damage or at least force a double/triple block to stop it. Which definitely could make him worth testing some more. I'll be doing it all night tonight and will let you know what i think.
He is weak to destroy/exile effects...and I wonder whether he's technically a target for Fatal push or not? Either way I think we can agree he's definitely the more explosive play, though not the most resilient one.
Thanks, but I was asking more about the most popular decks, so that players can see which matchups are good and which are bad etc. Some people that post here have a lot of experience against certain decks, and I need that when I write parts of the primer.
Also, I think that 5 artifact hate cards in your sideboard is a bit much, especially since you haven't even played against affinity yet. What does your local meta look like? I would also still like to see your list, because it's hard to make comments about your deck when I don't know what it looks like or what your meta is.
I've only been to one FNM and there was 2 eldrazi Tron, and two Infect decks, as well as a couple of other janky ones. But I play on Untap.in a lot, and I see a lot of Eldrazi and Artifact based decks, as well as enchantment control and burn.
The worst matchups I've had so far was a deck that played ensnaring bridge, intruder alert, and steward of solidarity. He would just play his entire hand until my 2+ creatures couldn't attack, forced my geist to go undying which evolved my E1, and there was nothing i could do. He drew and played until he got the steward out and created infinite tokens.
I haven't played Affinity yet but I imagine I'll be reaching for my sideboard and have half of it dedicated to cheap/broad artifact/enchantment removal: Deglamor/Unravel The Aether (2x of each in case one gets removed) 1x Manglehorn, and 2x pithing needle.
The other half of my sideboard is devoted to lifegain, removal, and 2x Heroic Intervention to add additional immunity to boardwipes for the already hexproof-heavy deck I run.
I'm still considering replacing all removal with Beast Within...its more expensive, and with a downside, but it works against everything. For now I mainboard 2x dismember and sideboard 2x gutshot with 2x natures way.
Dude, you're making WAY too many drastic changes to your deck just because of a handful of decks. There's a concept in Magic you should be aware about called diminishing returns. Ideally in a game, you don't want to draw too many copies of the same card, you want diversity. Just look at any card in the deck and ask yourself if you would like drawing all copies of it. I can guarantee that there isn't a single card in your deck that you want to draw all copies of.
Don't go too heavy on artifact removal. Against affinity, I like 2 copies of Creeping Corrosion (I've only resolved it once against Affinity, and my opponent conceded). A handful of artifact removal and Beast Within should do the trick. Remember, you don't need to kill every single artifact you see, you simply won't be able to. Just focus on taking out the key cards that make Affinity powerful and they will be left with a handful of Ornithopter and Memnite that just don't do anything against you.
Another concept you should be aware of is called over-sideboarding. If you sideboard too many cards after a game, your deck will be diluted and you won't actually have any creatures to play.
Admittedly, I'm a newer player and some of the terminology is lost on me, but I tune my sideboard based on what is effective against the most amount of decks, which cards I end up actually sideboarding in, and how often I draw the cards I need against decks that are a bad matchup.
The reason I don't use creeping corrosion/back to nature is because for the cost, there's spells that I can do more with, and more than once. Sure if I land Creeping Corrosion, Affinity will concede, but what are the chances of drawing 1 of 2 I sideboard in? And what about against Wurmcoils? Now, If I run Deglamor/Unravel, I can be effective (and effective earlier) against both enchantment control and affinity and wurmcoil/other artifact threat decks, even dodging Welding Jar.
I do think I might be 1-2 slots too specific, so I just traded out a deglamor for a Beast Within, and well as an Unravel for Natural state (dodging chalice of the void while still being relevant).
As to the idea of over sideboarding, how unlikely am I to even draw a card I've sideboarded if I don't move 6 or so? I heard somewhere that even moving a 4-of in only gives you a 60% chance of ever drawing it, and that you shouldn't mulligan for your sideboard either.
I hope I don't come across as argumentative, and I am constantly tuning my sideboard and completely open to replies. But some of the other cards I've seen in sideboards, I've never needed...and I've always wished I had more of the others.
Also, can anyone explain what I should trade out for the Bow of Nylea? I like the card but can't find any real reason to use it over my current sideboard.
The worst matchups I've had so far was a deck that played ensnaring bridge, intruder alert, and steward of solidarity. He would just play his entire hand until my 2+ creatures couldn't attack, forced my geist to go undying which evolved my E1, and there was nothing i could do. He drew and played until he got the steward out and created infinite tokens.
I haven't played Affinity yet but I imagine I'll be reaching for my sideboard and have half of it dedicated to cheap/broad artifact/enchantment removal: Deglamor/Unravel The Aether (2x of each in case one gets removed) 1x Manglehorn, and 2x pithing needle.
The other half of my sideboard is devoted to lifegain, removal, and 2x Heroic Intervention to add additional immunity to boardwipes for the already hexproof-heavy deck I run.
I'm still considering replacing all removal with Beast Within...its more expensive, and with a downside, but it works against everything. For now I mainboard 2x dismember and sideboard 2x gutshot with 2x natures way.
Our deck could use just a touch of tech I think. For those of you who don't run a tech slot mainboard, I really must insist you try it. When you don't need it, its still a very nice to have, and when you do, you are very, very glad you have it. I can't tell you how many times Bow has helped be stabilize against burn, and these two are the same CMC as bow with equally as powerful effects.
Rhonas's Monument - I currently mainboard a bow of Nylea, and this might be taking the slot. We already run a low curve, but Monument maximizes the benefits of that curve, leaving open mana for pump/hex/Treetop/spell pierce, getting in two creatures where we would have only had enough for one, or even getting in 1 drops for free. Plus, the added pump and trample is just really, really great.
Lifecrafter's Bestiary - This one was actually in one of the pro lists from last year, and the more I look at it, the more I like it. Its a ton of value packed into one card, just like Bow and Monument. The first half of the card gives us the power of selective topdecking, and the second half gives us the ability to draw anytime we play a creature. Considering over a third of our deck is cheap creatures, Bestiary suddenly becomes very, very relevant, and especially for grindy matchups where we tend to lose gas. Seems to be better than Shapers' Sanctuary, and certainly better than Evolutionary Leap: its proactive. Also, it works against removal and counterspells equally, in that we still get the card if the creature is countered.
I know finding room for both of these, and even then, the chances of getting them both out is pretty unlikely, but I'll be testing out these two alongside Bow as a 1x in my 75 for a good while.
Green Belt Rampager to trigger Revolt more consistently for Renegade, and make E1 stupidly huge on T2/3. I am currently running him in place of Leatherbacks and have not missed them once. The explosiveness you get from E1 and the ability to pay the cost for a 3 drop spread out between turns is not to be laughed at. Especially since it looks like you're already trying to run lean on lands. I will probably still run 1 of these even after getting the Steel Leaf Champions because it is just that big of a difference in the early turns. One of the biggest differences I've noticed has been, unlike a normal 3 drop, the mana is paid in 3 separate casts. So if the opponent is holding removal/counterspell, they have to decide whether they want to keep me from evolving again but have more open mana for something else, or let me tap out for the 3 drop but get two more evolve triggers out of E1.
Tireless Tracker is a clutch 3 drop in a Revolt deck, with all the landfall the fetchlands give you, you'll be swimming in Clues for card draw and counters on Tracker. Though looking again at how few lands you're running, I would probably only run 1. Plus Scooze is arguably cheaper to get counters for. Tracker just gives you another avenue and more options.
There's a lot of back and forth about Rhonas The Indomitable, but honestly he is an absolute beast, and the best asset this deck has. Attach Rancor to him for extra value.
Nature's Way - thanks to deathtouch, this card turns your Renegades and Rhonas into cheap removal. Not instant speed, but a real monster in its own right. Precombat removal with the added benefit of a trampling deathtoucher to attack with that still gets to block next turn is insane value for 2 mana.
I'm thinking Back to Nature is a natural SB answer but I'm wondering if anyone has thought of anything more interesting, maybe something that removes hexproof, or grants shroud, or otherwise disrupts their boardstate strategy.
Also, on the topic of sideboarding against burn/Jund, I think 3x Kitchen finks is the best all around answer. Baloth is better against Jund but expensive to cast against Burn, and the lifegain spells are nice but each Finks nets 4 health on its own, and comes with a body which discourages blocking much in the way of Strootgeist.
While we don't get to discard finks onto the battlefield like Baloth, we do get the persist+lifegain against Liliana's neg. Plus we still have Needle to deal with walkers, and the Sorcerous Spyglass is a new one on me. Interestingly, the way it reads seems to allude that you can look at their hand, and nameany card, even one not in their hand, which seems like a straight upgrade from Needle to me.
1x Pulse of Murasa and 2x Finks might be a good mix as well, to try for a shot at getting another Finks back with a lifegain uppercut on top.
Where can I find tables like these? I'm very interested in the maths.
edit: Found something.. If that table is correct, and I assume it is, it actually makes me questions why we run so few lands...22 seems like the optimal number, and really the bare minimum if our sideboard has 4 drops.
Running 22 as default would also allow us to take out a land if we don't sideboard in any 4 drops at all, and while that means running one card less somewhere else...lets face it, no one is running lands in their sideboards. Its better to have the land you need for 4 drops with the ability to have an extra slot for sideboarding if you don't use them, than it is to draw your 4 drop and be mana screwed.
That is a good point, the detriment to our strategy is too great to really justify running it.
Another thought, If we're running 4 drops in the sideboard, should we be running 22 lands? And has anyone experimented with a leaner version with less 3 drops and 20 lands? I'm just running 21 by default but I'm trying to figure out when I can/should be running 20 or 22.
He's right, I meant Evolutionary Leap not Shapers. I've settled on 2x Heroic Intervention though.
The same could be said about Rhonas. Black hand destruction is one of our worst matchups as it is so its important to keep that in mind. Why don't we just run 4x Leatherback? Because Rhonas has situational advantages and when we can pull them off, we can win games. The only decks I've had problems getting Ghalta out against were monoblue control and decks with hand destruction. The same is true of Rhonas, and frankly I have an equally hard time keeping Rhonas relevant because as soon as I drop him, my strategy is clear and my creatures just get picked off until Rhonas is nothing more than a statue on the battlefield. When I land Ghalta, its always a surprise and they have +/- a turn to deal with him or its GG. Also, for whatever reason Ghalta normally comes out at 2 mana or less for me, which saves me plenty of mana that turn to protect with hexproof pumps if I need to, rather than having to risk waiting another turn to drop Rhonas with a pump spell to protect him from Path, or hoping that if I activate Rhonas to pump another creature, I'll still have enough to hexproof if they Path.
Of course, its important to remember that I run more hexproof in my build than the norm, so I can counter most removal fairly consistently. It's always fun to drop Vines/Blossoming on their Path/Push.
Overall, I've found that its better to play instants over enchantments or other permanents (Prowling Serpopard), because though you only get one usage, it normally comes as a total surprise and allows you to gain the upperhand when you want to. Plus, permanents can be strategically played around or even targeted for removal. For this reason I run Guttural Response over Prowling Serpopard, and I'm leaning towards Heroic Intervention over Shapers Sanctuary and Evolutionary Leap.
While Rhonas doesn't rely on creature power to be played, Ghalta doesn't rely on creature power/mana in order to swing every turn, and as a 12/12-trample you're almost guarenteed to have some unblockable damage or at least force a double/triple block to stop it. Which definitely could make him worth testing some more. I'll be doing it all night tonight and will let you know what i think.
He is weak to destroy/exile effects...and I wonder whether he's technically a target for Fatal push or not? Either way I think we can agree he's definitely the more explosive play, though not the most resilient one.
I hadn't even thought about that...might be fun to run 2 Ghalta in place of Rhonas in a 4x Aspect devotion build (tuskers/more baloths in)
Here's my current revision.
1 Dungrove Elder
4 Experiment One
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Dryad Militant
1 Narnam Renegade
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Avatar of the Resolute
2 Leatherback Baloth
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Rhonas the Indomitable
3 Rancor
Land
21 Forest
Instant
3 Aspect of Hydra
4 Vines of Vastwood
2 Blossoming Defense
2 Dismember
1 Beast Within
2 Gut Shot
1 Manglehorn
1 Unravel the Aether
1 Deglamer
1 Natural State
2 Pithing Needle
1 Prowling Serpopard
1 Great Sable Stag
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Pulse of Murasa
1 Life Goes On
2 Heroic Intervention
I've only been to one FNM and there was 2 eldrazi Tron, and two Infect decks, as well as a couple of other janky ones. But I play on Untap.in a lot, and I see a lot of Eldrazi and Artifact based decks, as well as enchantment control and burn.
Admittedly, I'm a newer player and some of the terminology is lost on me, but I tune my sideboard based on what is effective against the most amount of decks, which cards I end up actually sideboarding in, and how often I draw the cards I need against decks that are a bad matchup.
The reason I don't use creeping corrosion/back to nature is because for the cost, there's spells that I can do more with, and more than once. Sure if I land Creeping Corrosion, Affinity will concede, but what are the chances of drawing 1 of 2 I sideboard in? And what about against Wurmcoils? Now, If I run Deglamor/Unravel, I can be effective (and effective earlier) against both enchantment control and affinity and wurmcoil/other artifact threat decks, even dodging Welding Jar.
I do think I might be 1-2 slots too specific, so I just traded out a deglamor for a Beast Within, and well as an Unravel for Natural state (dodging chalice of the void while still being relevant).
As to the idea of over sideboarding, how unlikely am I to even draw a card I've sideboarded if I don't move 6 or so? I heard somewhere that even moving a 4-of in only gives you a 60% chance of ever drawing it, and that you shouldn't mulligan for your sideboard either.
I hope I don't come across as argumentative, and I am constantly tuning my sideboard and completely open to replies. But some of the other cards I've seen in sideboards, I've never needed...and I've always wished I had more of the others.
Also, can anyone explain what I should trade out for the Bow of Nylea? I like the card but can't find any real reason to use it over my current sideboard.
I haven't played Affinity yet but I imagine I'll be reaching for my sideboard and have half of it dedicated to cheap/broad artifact/enchantment removal: Deglamor/Unravel The Aether (2x of each in case one gets removed) 1x Manglehorn, and 2x pithing needle.
The other half of my sideboard is devoted to lifegain, removal, and 2x Heroic Intervention to add additional immunity to boardwipes for the already hexproof-heavy deck I run.
I'm still considering replacing all removal with Beast Within...its more expensive, and with a downside, but it works against everything. For now I mainboard 2x dismember and sideboard 2x gutshot with 2x natures way.