Gonti is lots of fun. Especially if there's a green deck to point him at (or blue). I've only been able to use him here and there so far and haven't been able to do the steal-everybody's-libraries loop yet, but he's usually stolen something useful even if it isn't useful right away.
I started building mine back in about 2014, during a pretty tough time in my life, so this deck is really special to me. I was actually kind of surprised how little overlap there was in our decks, and I'm still reading through the (excellent) OP to see where our philosophies differ, but I'm always happy to find someone to gush over my precious child with
Here's my decklist (and here's the tappedout link). It's built to last through long, grinding games and I want to be able to reuse everything in the deck as often as possible. It's pretty artifact heavy, so I've had to find a few different ways to recur artifacts (and the means to recur those means of recurrance...)
Once I'm more caught up on the thread, I'll hopefully have more interesting insight.
I can see from the TO list that you've also foiled almost all of it. That also tells me it's an important deck to you.
I'll have more detail about philosophy/approach once I get to writing that section of the OP (there is a little in the OP at the moment). Happy to answer specific questions, though.
More or less I'm trying to stick to some general deckbuilding rules I have across all my decks (e.g., none use Sol Ring), stick to some thematic choices I made after reading about Chainer's backstory, and raise the bar for myself on acceptable self-contained win conditions so that surviving remains challenging and winning remains interesting. Gary/Kokusho/Exsanguinate are probably the easiest example concerning their absence from my list. I used to have Gary and Exsanguinate in the deck (still don't own a Kokusho). Half the times I won it was Exsanguinate, so that stopped being interesting and I removed it - Gary soon followed. Crossed them off the bucket list, so to speak. So that's why there's no life-leeching in the deck, even though it's a great enabler for Chainer. I do have a friend with an Ur-Dragon deck that has Kokusho in it. Though I've stolen it before to win, I'm now more inclined to exile it unless the game has already gone long and needs to end when it makes an appearance.
Game length I guess is another big part of my approach to EDH. I like them intriguing and not too long (1 - 1.5 hours). A longer game can be fun if it's suspenseful, with power swings and comebacks. It's not fun IMO if everybody else is just waiting to die if one player has locked the table down but can't follow it promptly with a win.
After doing some goldfish testing and realizing I could visualize if Demonlord Belzenlok did anything acceptable through a bit of programming, he's back out and I'm trying Harvester of Souls again. Might end up back to Bloodgift Demon, though. In the simulations, Belzenlok would most often get me 1 card at a time. Half of the frequency of singles I could get 2 cards. Half of that frequency 3 cards. Plus any lands exiled would stay exiled, and I like my lands. Maybe he'd work in a deck that can tolerate the land loss once some sort of value-engine blinking has begun (maybe Marchesa, the Black Rose), but most likely reanimating with Chainer and most likely only getting one card in hand makes it too costly.
Massacre Wurm is too good to stay out for token control. Void Winnower would keep opponents from blocking with tokens, but not prevent a retaliatory attack. Also I figure the cast-prevention would put a target on me. I was initially worried about outright killing a player with Massacre Wurm, but if they have enough tokens for that to happen then they were getting ready to win anyway and there's a decent chance their stuff was not worth stealing to use against the other players. Or I just sac the Wurm before the -2/-2 trigger resolves and they don't die.
I keep flip-flopping on Abhorrent Overlord vs Razaketh, the Foulblooded at the moment. Do I need the repeatable tutor or do I need the tokens for the combos (or for aggro)? I supposed I could replace Ambition's Cost with a tutor (either Diabolic Intent or this nice 9th Ed. Diabolic Tutor). I've been thinking a lot about how this deck deals with the concept of power and the balance of using others' vs bringing my own. For example, for tokens I could rely on Wurmcoil Engine, or more randomly an opponent's token-maker (e.g. Siege-Gang Commander), or somewhat in-between Sepulchral Primordial assuming enough opponents have creature cards in their graveyards. For tutors I could repeat Demonic Tutor with XHD if necessary, among other possibilities. Both of these cards are firehoses at what they do, but it may simply come down to Razaketh being the scary, must-answer card vs Overlord.
Reflecting —
I'd made a decent number of changes over the past several months, including testing a build that attempted to focus on card draw without tutors. It could still work, but my friends actually convinced me that this deck should still be the "mean" deck. So I returned to using tutors and pulled out some other stops. More thoughts below.
I had chosen Deathgreeter to replace Blood Artist because I didn't want to end up leeching the table while trying to combo with Gonti or Sepulchral Primordial instead. However, most of the combos involve a sacrifice outlet and I usually have one out anyway. This means I can just soften people up (particularly as a solution to lifegainers) from the Blood Artist triggers if I'm going for a different win condition, while helping enable a combat win condition and being a backup win condition itself.
I decided I wanted to give this deck more opportunity to pull off its ultimate win condition if possible. Blood Artist afforded a strong temptation to simply machine-gun everybody to death, plus it would kill everybody in the process of a Gonti/Primordial loop anyway... unless I add Abyssal Persecutor to the combo. Anyway, Deathgreeter is back.
Wipes — I had more wipes in the draw version — don't need that many for my group. Damnation is great, but I want to be able to hit other stuff with Nevinyrral's Disk (plus I used the older, more eldritch-horror art). All is Dust doesn't hit artifacts for the most part, and short Toxic Deluge I wanted another -X/-X solution so Mutilate is in for testing (also older, nightmare/Chainer themed art).
Beatsticks — Arena-on-a-stick out to test Belzenlok's card accessing. Phyrexian Obliterator out for a different beatstick in the shape of Void Winnower now that devotion doesn't matter except for Nykthos. I removed Massacre Wurm because it can be a "surprise, you lose!" card if somebody has enough tokens, and I want to avoid having that kind option immediately available. It's why Exsanguinate isn't here. Torgaar replaces it so I can fiddle around with life totals to knock lifegain decks down or keep myself alive (20 life is quite comfortable, really). Abhorrent Overlord may someday see play again, but it forms a rather easy loop with just Chainer and Phyrexian Altar, so let's see if I can steal somebody else's ETB token producer for loops and see how Doom Whisperer fares.
Vedalken Orrery is also one of those cards I would love to have in play every game. In its stead, Ambition's Cost is the last piece of the draw-only version that I'm leaving in for now because it's on-theme. And since I pay life to stuff a lot, I'm going to see how Font of Agonies does, replacing Vampiric Rites.
Other cards on my mind —
I'm reconsidering the exclusion of Harvester of Souls. More card draw isn't bad, but I'll see how I like Belzenlok, first.
Mind Slash is still in the little box for possible Chainer stuff. It's diabolically good and I should probably be using it. Oppression-style enchantments have been under consideration, too, though I then become tempted to use Geth's Grimoire.
Meteor Golem is cool, but I can't hit my own stuff with it. Duplicant is good, but only hits creatures. sigh
Aether Snap may get a spot for dealing with tokens/planeswalkers, though it's not exactly on the short list. I'm probably going to be rotating through different wipes to find the combination I like best.
Corpse Connoisseur is one of those cards I keep eyeballing, but I would probably be disappointed with the practical cost of basically 6 life and 6xB for whatever creature I'm after.
Edit2: And then I go and realize (*facepalm*) that I don't have to let Massacre Wurm kill an opponent. It just has to not be on the battlefield when the creatures die. It's a great piece of control so it'll almost certainly go back in after testing some of these new cards.
Sphinx of the Guildpact — A five-color card in a mono-black deck would be a little amusing. A 5/5 flier with hexproof that's pretty decent is also not bad as a beater in my opinion. Might run it some day as a joke.
Awaken the Erstwhile — Zombie tokens aren't my thing, but this could be a more 'fair' alternative to Mindslicer (although Mindslicer is so perfectly on-theme). Mindslicer presents as a huge threat because I can pretty clearly repeat it due to my commander and my opponents get nothing. I have to use XHD to get Awaken back, but the consolation prize of zombies might make it seem "better". Do this to somebody with a huge fist of cards and then follow up with Massacre Wurm or Deadly Tempest? Okay.
Pestilent Spirit — It's unfortunate that this doesn't work with mono-black. It's an interesting effect, but almost certainly has to be paired with red.
The Haunt of Hightower — Someday I'll get a copy to test; I don't know why I don't already have a copy. Seems like a fantastic beater for this deck. Flying, lifelink, discard on attack (rather than on damage), automatically grows. And not just growing when cards die, are discarded, or are milled - it'll grow just from opponents casting non-permanents or cracking fetchlands.
In an effort to start getting caught up and start working on the OP again, it seems there's a lot of black/colorless cards that have been released that I could comment on. So many that I feel like I need to use spoiler tags. Probably commenting on more than really need commentary, but pretty much anything I even considered for half a second. Except a handful of "lose N life draw N cards" cards.
Shadows Over Innistrad Behold the Beyond — Very niche if it's even useful. Would be handy for endgame but otherwise dead in my hand, probably. Really on-theme, though, dang. Call the Bloodline — Decent discard outlet and the tokens are alright, but costs mana and the "once a turn" clause is pretty limiting. Corrupted Grafstone — Not great in a mono-color deck. I'd rather use another 2-drop mana rock in its place. Ever After — Decent reanimation spell, but not what this deck runs on. Haunted Cloak — I have considered this. Stealing any fatty I want and giving "Vigilance, Trample, Haste" for Equip 1 is pretty nice. Indulgent Aristocrat — Better in vampires. Or Marchesa. Macabre Waltz — Does what it does pretty well for two mana. Merciless Resolve — It's okay. For an additional 1 over Altar's Reap you get the choice of sacrificing a land instead of a creature. Ironic. Mindwrack Demon — Self-milling evasive beater. Probably viable in a tamer version of this deck. To the Slaughter — There are better ways to achieve these ends. Westvale Abbey — If token generation is good in the deck, I want to play with this sometime just to try it out. Just seems funny to reanimate it with Crucible, basically.
Eldritch Moon Emrakul, the Promised End — Nice beater, but I don't like controlling other player's turns (even though that's probably on-theme for this deck). Geier Reach Sanitarium — I probably need to test this at some point. Liliana, the Last Hope — Nah. Noosegraf Mob — This one is interesting, as it is potentially, pseudo-passive token generation. Succumb to Temptation — If I tried a build with improved card draw and no tutors, this would probably be in there. Tree of Perdition — LOL
Kaladesh Aetherworks Marvel — This one still interests me. However it would probably be way better in Marchesa or Mazirek. I imagine the quantity of sacrifices is larger in Mazirek, whereas in Chainer I'm going more for quality unless I hit a loop. I should start keeping some statistics from Chainer games. Demon of Dark Schemes — Don't really need this close of a backup to Chainer usually, but the extra energy production could fuel the Marvel if I test it. Fortuitous Find — We have some important artifacts, so having a way to get one back (or a creature if we need it back to hand rather than reanimated with Chainer) isn't terrible. Ghirapur Orrery — This one's been on my testing list for a while, too. Can be a double-edged sword if anybody else has land-based mana doubling. The draw-3 ability could possibly help keep discard effects like Sadistic Hypnotist/Mind Slash useful. Gonti, Lord of Luxury — Already in the deck. One of the central pieces to its ultimate wincon, actually. Key to the City — Very low on the testing list, possibly if I do an only-draw-no-tutors build. Marionette Master — An alright token machine. But better in an artifacts-matter deck. I'm also trying to limit the "loses N life" effects. Noxious Gearhulk — This thing is ridiculous. Every time this thing comes out it just wrecks everything in sight. Panharmonicon — Since ETB effects are the bread and butter of Chainer, I have considered running this to get extra value from my plays. Perpetual Timepiece — While a bit of self-mill is useful, I'd rather re-shuffle graveyard with something that doesn't target since there's a deck with Ground Seal in my small meta. Smuggler's Copter — I like this guy. Maybe not in this deck, but I still like it.
Aether Revolt Hope of Ghirapur — I still need to try this sometime, but probably in a different deck. Seems like it would be amazing in Alesha, Who Smiles at Death. Metallic Mimic — Very nice in Marchesa, but not here, I think. Paradox Engine — I don't run enough artifacts to make this useful. Planar Bridge — While mana isn't a problem, black has way better tutors. Treasure Keeper — Could have some potential, maybe? I tend to prefer less randomness in my actual plays (and information revealing) in this deck, though. Worth some playtime at some point to see what effect it has on how I play Chainer. Yahenni, Undying Partisan — Seems like a better sacrifice outlet than Dimir House Guard, but he's hanging out with Marchesa for the moment.
Amonkhet Archfiend of Ifnir — This guys seems cool in the right kind of deck. Final Reward — I like that it's instant. Exile in black is rare enough, but I have other options that are more repeatable. Gate to the Afterlife — The first ability is nice in this deck, but I have more easily recurred stuff that gives me life and/or cards.
Hour of Devastation Bontu's Last Reckoning — Not terrible. I could play around the lands part for a round, as I usually wait until the end of a turn to activate Chainer anyway, or as necessary. Mirage Mirror — This has some pretty sneaky potential. Razaketh, the Foulblooded — This guy would be a ridiculous threat in this deck. Torment of Hailfire — An awesome card as a finisher, but that's also why I'm not running it — part of the theme is to use opponents' own threats against them or through combat damage (same reason Exsanguinate isn't in the deck).
Ixalan Arguel's Blood Fast — Very nice card draw. Currently in Marchesa. Costly Plunder — Slightly more versatile than Altar's Reap. Revel in Riches — I like the Treasure tokens better than Black Market, but I don't want the auto-win condition. If it was just the first ability at 3B I'd probably be running it. Thaumatic Compass — The repeatable basic land fetch is a good tool, but I tend not to have problems hitting land drops and I don't much care for the flipside in this deck.
Rivals of Ixalan Azor's Gateway — I usually don't have a problem generating B, but that flipside... I could see running this a game or two down the road just for fun. Dead Man's Chest — The kind of effect this deck wants to win with, ultimately. Gonti is easier to recur, of course, but this is another I might run for fun some day. Mastermind's Acquisition — Too bad there's no use to the second option in Commander. Ravenous Chupacabra — Repeatable control is nice, but I have better options. The Immortal Sun — An interesting card, certainly. Twilight Prophet — Nice card draw, but another life-leeching effect that I'm specifically avoiding in this deck.
Dominaria Cabal Stronghold — Nah. Doesn't generate enough advantage. I'd have to cut a probably-more-useful nonbasic or, ironically, a basic. Chainer's Torment — What? No. Damping Sphere — I like the speedbump this presents. Ultimately it isn't going to slow Mizzix down much, but it also messes with Coffers and Nykthos. Fortunately doesn't mess with Crypt Ghast/Nirkana Revenant/Caged Sun. Dark Bargain — This does not excite me. Demonlord Belzenlok — I've tried to imagine how this would play out, but I basically just need to test it. Final Parting — This one is alright, if I was nerfing myself by not running Entomb but still allowing tutors. Helm of the Host — Could be an interesting fun card, but probably won't see time in this deck. Mox Amber — I do like this rock, but it's probably going to see play in Zada instead. Phyrexian Scriptures — Not what this deck needs. The Eldest Reborn — I like all the effects, but I also like to control the timing of them better. Torgaar, Famine Incarnate — This guy is going in soon. Seems like a really good tool in the toolbox. Whisper, Blood Liturgist — Creepy minion is on-theme, but I also don't need a backup graveyard-to-battlefield effect. Yawgmoth's Vile Offering — Meh. I wasn't even going to list it at first, but I feel strongly enough about that Meh.
Guilds of Ravnica Doom Whisperer — Looking forward to testing this one. Gruesome Menagerie — If I were running lower to the ground this could be an interesting toolbox piece with XHD. Mausoleum Secrets — Using tutors that reveal the card or don't are pretty much personal/tactical preference, but a two-mana instant is still pretty darn good. Midnight Reaper — Whenever a creature itself deals damage on a trigger I try to think of how to weaponize it. It's a nice card, but it's not Dark Prophecy, Grim Haruspex, or Harvester of Souls. Necrotic Wound — Well it isn't Tragic Slip. Might be alright in my self-milling Sidisi deck where "number of creatures in your graveyard" matters, but morbid is a lot easier in this deck. Plaguecrafter — I like it. I don't want to run that sacrifice effect much (and Slum Reaper is just more on-theme). Wand of Vertebrae — Perpetual Timepiece is better. Lots of things are better.
Commander 2018 Ancient Stone Idol — As a big dumb beater I like it. Plus it drops pretty nice tokens. Disciple of Griselbrand, Altar of Dementia, and Disciple of Bolas want a new friend. Bloodtracker — Neat card, but belongs in a +1/+1 counters deck. Entreat the Dead — The miracle cost is really nice, but otherwise I probably wouldn't run it in this deck. Endless Atlas — Pretty easy in a mono-color deck, but mono-black has better card draw options. Night Incarnate — It's an option and kindof on-theme, but there are other creature-based options I'd use before this for the -X/-X effect. Skull Storm — Cute, but no thank you. Nine mana isn't worth the creature sacrifice effect, and it gets in the way of preceding it with a board wipe to secure the life-halving effect. Sower of Discord — Could be handy for enhancing the combat-damage wincon of this deck. No plans to test currently, though. Stitch Together — Threshold is easy, and for two mana that's a nice low-cost reanimation spell.
Battlebond Archfiend of Despair — Well I'm not doing life loss, but if I was this guys seems pretty awesome. It's Wound Reflection on a big stick with life gain prevention. A lot of value there. Krav, the Unredeemed — This guy is interesting. Running him in Marchesa at the moment due to +1/+1 counters. Stunning Reversal — This is one of those "Gotcha!" cards I just want to try sometime. Seven cards is nice, but it could also squeeze out one more Chainer activation at 3 or less life if things go awry (which is not often). Thrilling Encore — Fun follow-up to a wipe. Damnation plus this seems preferable to me over Rise of the Dark Realms. Also a nice follow-up to somebody else's wipe. This one might see some actual testing since theft is one of the main goals and five mana is decent even if I just get 2-3 creatures.
Some card changes to the deck are eventually inbound, too, after I get around to testing.
Void Winnower actually says that Zero is Even... Sounds like the guy who denies it might have some other problems with reality.
He recognized that the card says that, but was questioning it mathematically. Hence I hadn't run Winnower since. I should give it a run somewhere just to test the waters again.
In other news, I didn't realize with the number of printings that Necropotence is now less than $5. I'll probably place an order for it since it's too good not to run.
I recommend newer printings or fifth edition for accurate rules text. One of the two I have is the Deckmasters version with the old art (which I like better) and foil, but it phrases the discard-exile ability as a replacement effect when it's really a triggered ability. Saves time bringing up Oracle text if you want to reanimate something you discarded to save it from exile.
What about Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni? I'm playing Mindcrank in my list so that I can get access to my opponent's creatures too (and because the Crank actually messes up Top of Deck tutors really well too. I'm continually surprised by how relevant mill is), so Ink-Eyes has a good chance to hit for Ninjitsu and theft a creature. I just don't know if it's redundant to what Chainer already does. It's between Ink-Eyes and Nightmare because, well, Chainer needs a Nightmare Horse to ride on when he ravages his opponents! And Nightmare is one of the OG Black creatures in MTG! And because it's a literal nightmare creature to take advantage of Chainer's pump! And also get exiled if Chainer leaves play...
I'm don't think Chainer needs a horse, even if it's a flying nightmare horse.
Not sure about Ink-Eyes, yet. Most games I play somewhat like a control deck, reanimating creatures for their activated or triggered abilities at instant speed in response to something or before my turn. Ink-Eyes isn't as flexible for the reanimation aspect that way, but with some trample she can keep pressure on opponents. Then reanimating via combat sounds better to me. I'll probably test her someday once I get a copy.
I've considered Mindcrank before, as it would speed some things along, except my own graveyard. I almost wish it were symmetrical. I've also considered Mesmeric Orb for a passive milling effect. I might A/B test them in Defense Grid's slot, but I'll give Chainer a rest in my main group for a little while since he kindof dominates, even at the risk of running my life close to zero sometimes.
Great game report! It sounds like an enjoyable game, all things considered. I think that Blood Artist helped you definitively close the door on the game that you were already going to win. From what I gather, you had a pretty insurmountable mana and Reanimator advantage over your opponents; why bother giving them a couple of turns just to inevitably die? It sounds like the Artist helped close the game out so that you could potentially shuffle up for another game. That's one of the reasons I like infinite or semi-infinite combos to be present in my deck somehow; it helps accelerate a game so that I can get more games in within a play session. Food for thought.
I chose to run Life's Finale because the decks that I would be playing against with Chainer have some sweet Reanimator targets. Being able to grab them proactively out of their deck while resetting the field, setting up a great play sequence on my next turn, is very ideal to me. Chainer would be going up against a Bladewing the Risen Dragon Reanimator deck, a Kaalia of the Vast deck (my wife's), and a couple other goodstuff decks. The Finale sets me up to take advantage of their decks. And of course, the Disk helps to get rid of problematic Enchantments and Artifacts. Why not run both in place of some of the cards you want to cut?
Yeah, that's why I have loops, too. It's just that Blood Artist hijacks the win from other stuff I'd like to loop for the win (like milling). Not as many creature-heavy decks in my main group. There's usually utility or synergy/loop pieces to dump into the graveyard and make them harder to reach. Dumping Guttersnipe and Talrand from Mizzix's deck is a fine play, and I can use those with Corpse Dance. Part of what I like about this deck is using opponent's cards against them for win conditions, such as the game where I looped a Kokusho that The Ur-Dragon brought out, even though I don't have such a piece in my deck. I've wondered about the possibility of taking some of the combo pieces out of my deck to make it a little harder to do my own loops, instead requiring opponent's cards a little more for completing the loops.
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief is a great, repeatable removal and combat damage mana sink. I'm quite fond of her in mono-Black decks.
If you're contemplating a 7-drop spot... would Void Winnower be too mean against your playgroup? I like that it helps to force combat damage through and helps to disrupt my opponents in their removal choice. Plus, it's got lots of spaghetti arms and honestly looks like something that Chainer would summon from Dementia space. The Eldrazi are weird and nightmarish creatures, so I felt it appropriate to run the two better ones. Reanimating Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger still feels really good even if I miss the cast trigger.
If the Eldrazi aren't useful to you or would be overpowered, I recommend Pestilence Demon. It's a solid beater, helps keep the board under control from stupid weenie swarms, kills most random hate-bears that would disrupt a Reanimator strategy, and has cool flavor text. Do note I am a removal-heavy deckbuilder, so I come from the bias that adding more removal is always better.
I don't think Void Winnower would be too bad, as long as one guy in my group finally agrees that zero is even. I was about to find a slot for Winnower at the top of the Birthing Pod curve in my Ruric Thar deck. Eldrazi are definitely on-theme and I'm running a couple right now (the theme does manifest in a number ways, though, not just ugly creatures). Newlamog might be a bit much, as far as power level, but we'll see how that develops and if games with another higher-powered group become more frequent. Pestilence Demon, on the other hand, sounds like a pretty good toolbox to do fun stuff with lifelink and things dying.
Loxodon Warhammer gives my creatures the lifelink aspect I'm looking for. Basilisk Collar is good tech, but I don't want to consistently wipe my whole field as well. Usually, 3 activations of Pestilence Demon is enough to clear the field, which is acceptable. The Warhammer is also $0.39, and it gives a combat damage boost while also turning many of my creatures into 4-turn clocks. It's been decent in application and I think it's fine.
Yup, I missed the hammer in your list when I was rereading before my reply.
I've found myself, as an EDH player, coming into a weird paradigm: I need to have 2-3 highly competitive decks actually built (Memnarch, Teferi, and Edric decks for me) and then a grip of casual decks to play with as well (Nicol Bolas, Chainer, Yisan in my gauntlet). I play different skill levels and I find that I increase the overall volume of games if I use the right decks in the right playgroup and skill level. I'd hate to curb-stomp the whole table on T4 with my Teferi Stax deck and piss everyone off, minimizing the number of games I actually play. I'm more interested in the game and social interactions it provides, and different level of deck intensities help to deliver an enjoyable game for everyone that maximizes the number of games I get. For this reason, I've tried to minimize the tutors in the deck. It gives variance to each game, doesn't feel as streamlined and efficient from my opponents' perspective, and helps to give an enjoyable experience for all involved. But the moment I feel like I want to win, I can happily pull out one of my 3 cEDH decks and feel confident that I will win and soothe my ego, haha.
This is more-or-less the space I'm in, too. I like limited and constrained tutors so far in Chainer, but it's one of my big guns.
It looks like Sidisispiders might be my other big gun. Zedruu is probably the best balanced with my most frequent playgroup at the moment (it has almost won a couple times now). That's the fun shenanigans "make the game state interesting" sort of space I'd like the Marchesa grixis clones I'm working on to be in, as well.
As a general update, I had an interesting game with Chainer this weekend against Mizzix and Kaseto. It was interesting because I cast Chainer once and activated him maybe twice (at the same time). The rest of the time I just cast stuff, and didn't even have strong card draw aside from a few well-placed Skullclamp attachments, as Necropotence ate countermagic and Phyrexian Arena came down later. But I could cast stuff a lot because of a bit of ramp and having Crypt Ghast from early on.
Gonti nabbed me some countermagic that I used to stop Mizzix's Caged Sun. Later I reanimated him and took Firemind's Foresight (which would have been pretty useful had I cast it).
Praetor's Grasp, however, I aimed at Kaseto. I thought about taking their Phyrexian Metamorph, but there weren't many useful things to copy. Instead I took their Orochi Hatchery. Mizzix attempted somewhat of a one-sided wipe with Comet Storm, killing whatever I had. Kaseto played Skullwinder and I got the Ghast back because they didn't want Mizzix to have the Comet Storm back. I used Kagemaro to wipe, followed by recasting Crypt Ghast and Whip of Erebos, and passed the turn.
Mizzix tapped out to overload Mizzix's Mastery, which ended up only getting them 6 cards by copying Mystic Confluence with Howl of the Horde, because everything else was x. Kaseto pumped up as much as they could and hit me for a decent chunk but didn't kill me. At this point I poured 24 mana into casting the Hatchery and it resolved with 12 counters. After the Ghast's extort trigger, which saved my bacon over the course of the game, I had 5 mana left to activate it, so I did.
Mizzix recasts their commander (I think they were trying to set up for something and needed the discount). Can't remember what Kaseto did, but they tapped out. So I activate the Hatchery again and start drawing a ton of cards with Skullclamp. Down comes Massacre Wurm to take out both of their commanders again. Down comes Blood Artist, and Fallen Ideal attached to the Wurm. I attack Mizzix with the first set of snakes to gain some life and bring them down to 7, then I kill 7 snakes to finish him off with Blood Artist's triggers. Kaseto couldn't really touch my life total now, and got machine-gunned with snakes.
After reflecting on this game, I came to a few decision regarding my next batch of changes.
Blood Artist has to be switched back to Deathgreeter. Artist simply can't supply life for Chainer loops without killing opponents, because I can't loop Gonti or Sepulchral Primordial enough times for an Ultimate Finish without razing my opponents in the process unless one of them has gained 200-300 life.
Phyrexian Obliterator is unnecessary as a beater, and too mean as a trick to put in the way of damage.
Vedalken Orrery, while a nice idea, didn't even cross my mind even though I spent most of the game casting on my turn instead of using Chainer. At no point did I wish it was on the battlefield, so I can probably make that something more useful.
Sepulchral Primordial might also be unnecessary. It sat in my hand this game (and a couple previous games) because there just weren't decent targets worth stealing, and thus better things to do with the mana.
I'm also still doing well on mana with the moderate amount of ramp I did. I only did Thawing Glaciers twice in one turn with Deserted Temple and activated Burnished Hart once and otherwise hit all my drops, though dropping Urborg early was quite helpful. I feel like I had plenty of mana even without Crypt Ghast, but with Ghast I often had lands still untapped at the beginning of my turn. So I'll be considering a mana sink of some sort — either something to trickle it into to mess with combat or gain life, or something I can blast the remaining into mana into. I have considered Deathgrip for amusement. Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief could help in multiple ways, as the power buff does well with lifelink, Disciple of Bolas, and Altar of Dementia.
As for other replacements, I'm considering adding an additional wipe in the form of Life's Finale, Nevinyrral's Disk, or Mutilate. A source of lifegain might be useful because that still seems to be a highly limiting factor, and possibly artifact recursion. For this the good ol' Trading Post toolbox is under consideration, but so is Loxodon Warhammer or Basilisk Collar to encourage me to use combat more.
@benjameenbear: Bone Shredder might be an option over Shriekmaw. Phage strikes me as an odd choice since you don't have XHD or Phyrexian Reclamation to get it back from the graveyard and can't reanimate it.
I like that you're sticking primarily to card draw. If life becomes an issue, Basilisk Collar could be useful with all the big guns you have. Also works well on Pestilence Demon.
Looks good, though.
Now on my Bucket List with Chainer is: reanimate someone else's Kothophed, force it back to them with Homeward Path or Faceless Butcher, then do a sacrifice loop to kill them. Just have to make sure they don't have a sacrifice outlet of their own.
Yeah, it'd be nice to lean more heavily one way or the other for those pieces. If I were to go that rout, I'd probably run Torpor Orb and lean toward activated abilities since a large portion of the list already is activated abilities and/or death triggers. Orb would only affect these cards:
Abhorrent Overlord is still a 6/6 flyer, which is pretty good with all ETB shut off.
The reason for this is so that if you do decide to convert this thread to a Primer, you already have a second post set aside so that you can fluidly extend the OP Primer post into two posts if you want. Just as an FYI. For my Memnarch Primer, I didn't reserve the second post and had to delete someone else's comment so that I could have the second post for my Primer.
Ah, okay. Hopefully the way I'm organizing it will work well enough I won't need it, but at least it's there. I was thinking there is (or used to be) a length limit on posts that primers would hit and then need the second post for overflow.
We'll see if I go for actual Primer status, but I really like this deck and wanted to take a shot at putting together that much structured information about it.
Also, I think it might be worthwhile to draft up a competitive list for those who are interested in it. It doesn't have to be the focus of your Primer per se, but I think it would be a good addition to help add depth to your thread. A sample competitive Stax list might look something like this:
The competitive list goes fully onboard with resource denial, tax effects, and forced sacrifice effects, creating a truly oppressive and comprehensive Stax package. Definitely not for casual playgroups, I think that this is a good starting point to consider.
You might also decide not to include it at all. No worries!
I do know some other primer writers like DementedKirby who give alternate decklists, so that's a possibility I'll consider down the road. I'd probably consider adding a section for a more budget-friendly list before a competitive list. I just don't have fun with stax that keeps other players from playing the game at all. I'm okay with speedbumps and bottlenecks. For example, Chainer can play around Storage Matrix fairly well. I'm also okay with Contamination if it comes down just before a loop to protect that or fish for countermagic, but sticking it on turn 3 to jam up the rest of the table for turn after turn isn't my thing.
I really don't like destroying people's lands, especially — except for spot removal of ridiculous lands. I consider Phyrexian Obliterator a testing spot for this reason because it could be used as a sometimes unblockable 5/5, but instant speed reanimation could abuse it to utterly destroy somebody's board state in the face of a Blasphemous Act or as a surprise blocker.
By the way, where did this competitive example come from?
Yeah, I forgot about Nirkana Revenant. Such a cool card. It should definitely find a spot somehow in my casual list since it's really good.
It is pretty good. I just wish it had flying or something. I once pumped it up to 19/19 and attacked to provoke a chump block to get rid of their creature. Then I resolved Disciple of Bolas and sacked it to that. Fun times.
Hey comrade, I like the list! I'm building a more casual version of Chainer for my casual friends, and I took a lot of inspiration from your thread here. Good stuff.
A card that you could consider in the spot of Fallen Ideal is Mind Slash. While it loses some utility due to its sorcery speed restriction, I think the ability to strip answers from opponents' hands and/or the best creature for Chainer to reanimate is really important.
I like that one and will probably try it once I get a copy, though the sorcery speed thing hurts. I do keep forgetting about it, so thanks for reminding me. Added to my wishlist!
Also, is there a reason that Black Market is excluded? I think that with as many sac outlets as you have that it would be working overtime in mana production.
It could indeed produce a lot of mana and accumulate many counters. It just doesn't quite match up with my play style with Chainer because I most often activat him on other people's turns for combat tricks or pseudo-haste. Most of my opponents are trying to play their decks and deal with the battlefield and tend to lose awareness of the potential of any creature in any graveyard coming to the battlefield at a moment's notice. I think that's Chainer's main advantage. For that reason I've preferred land-ramp, a recurrable land booster or two, and I have loops that are at least self-sustaining on mana and life if they're not producing endless supplies of it (Phyrexian Altar is a ridiculous card).
Once I've honed this approach to Chainer more I might test Black Market (almost certainly in Vedalken Orrery's slot) just to see how it affects how I play the deck, but so far I've had plenty of mana and wanted more life. I feel like Nirkana Revenant would be more likely to keep a slot than Market, though.
Note to self: make a Notable Exclusions section in the Card Choices section.
I had chosen Deathgreeter to replace Blood Artist because I didn't want to end up leeching the table while trying to combo with Gonti or Sepulchral Primordial instead. However, most of the combos involve a sacrifice outlet and I usually have one out anyway. This means I can just soften people up (particularly as a solution to lifegainers) from the Blood Artist triggers if I'm going for a different win condition, while helping enable a combat win condition and being a backup win condition itself. Falkenrath Noble could see a return to the fold since it's flying and is tutorable with Dimir House Guard and Fleshwrither.
Thought Gorger I tried a few times and it wasn't really doing what I wanted, but I did find myself wanting to tutor for one of the noncreature 4-drops, so Dimir House Guard is back.
Imp's Mischief probably won't be as useful with Defense Grid also here, as well as I spend the majority of the time reanimating rather than casting, so for the same reason I'm not too sad if a creature card ends up in the graveyard. Diabolic Intent usually has fodder here for the additional cost, as Demonic Tutor is in another deck (also, being ripped apart and eaten by Crovax is pretty "nightmarish"). Evidently I'm softening slightly on my tutor limitation.
Ice Cauldron is a hilarious effect and I finally got a chance to play with it, but there's nothing I really want to rattlesnake in this deck. Also, I don't want to explain how it works, apparently, so if I ever do try it in another deck, its usefulness better be worth all the explanation. In its place enters Dark Deal, which is more what I wanted out of Thought Gorger in the first place.
Finally, I'm going to test All is Dust instead of Ugin as a wipe that hits enchantments. I probably need better graveyard removal than Shred Memory anyway since that usually serves as a tutor,
but for the most part people are not going to recur their enchantments. Most often they'll be sacrificing creatures, too,
and I probably want them.
Game Recap —
I had a pretty interesting game last Sunday where I got to practice some new interactions, most of which are from additions originating with the thematic rebuild.
Had Thawing Glaciers in my opening hand with two swamps and drew Deserted Temple. Decided to drop the Glaciers turn one so I could activate it next turn.
Bloodghast and Phyrexian Altar did a super impression of Lotus Cobra with all this land fetching (including from a couple of fetchlands). After I cast Rings of Brighthearth, I spent a turn using all of these to go to town on ramping as many basics as I could until I had only three swamps still untapped for either activating Chainer or casting Withering Boon. It was, unfortunately, a long turn — I need to practice these kinds of interactions so I have a rote understanding of how much mana it takes for each cycle of interactions.
With Kaseto, Orochi Archmage and The Ur-Dragon chipping away at my life, Kagemaro, First to Suffer got a lot of use as a wipe, and X was never less than 7 thanks to Grim Haruspex and Bloodghast. The first time, I cast Kagemaro from hand. The second was a bit more desparate and I reanimated him with Chainer and activated him, killing Chainer, too. After this is the turn I ramped like mad, so I had no problem casting Chainer for 5BB.
Had an interesting round of combat where dragons resolved Thundermaw Hellkite while I had Abhorrent Overlord and six harpies. In response I sacked them for black mana and waited for him to do something else so I could respond. He cast Blade of Selves but didn't have enough mana to attach it, and I responded by reanimating the Overlord and getting my flyers back. He attacked me with Kaalia and dropped Mordant Dragon, I think. Blocked and killed them. Definitely a poor choice to attack me then.
The third time I used Kagemaro, however, I was at 12 life and the dragons player had resolved Kokusho on the previous turn. I sacked my Abhorrent Overlord and harpies for mana (I had plenty, but I wanted to stretch it just in case and I needed another reanimation target aside from Kagemaro). I activated Chainer targeting Kagemaro and let that resolve — 9 life. I activate Chainer targeting the Overlord — 6 life. Rings triggers and I respond to it by activating Kagemaro. To this, finally, I respond by sacrificing Chainer, Bloodghast, and Haruspex to raise my cards in hand to 8 and let Chainer go to the graveyard.
Kagemaro's ability resolves, doing -8/-8. Kokusho dies and triggers, which resolves and knocks me down to 1 life. I pay 2 to the Rings trigger to copy Chainer's ability and target Chainer. That resolves and he's back as a nightmare. His original ability resolves and brings back Overlord. I cast the Claws of Gix in my hand, sacking 3 harpies to bring my life up to 4 so I can activate Chainer once and reanimate Kokusho. From there I looped him with Chainer, Phyrexian Altar, and Overlord for the win.
To be candid, I thought I had completely goofed on the math and couldn't activate Chainer again (and had helped kill myself) when I hit 1 life the first time because I had set my hand down before lining up activations. I had been ignoring the Claws of Gix in my hand up until then. It got me out of a corner that I'd put myself in because I wanted to try the Chainer-flickers-himself trick to get around Kagemaro, but I probably could have just cast him for 7BB easily and had enough to reanimate Kokusho.
I also had Wurmcoil Engine in my graveyard, Head Games and Memory Jar in my hand. So I probably could have stabilized my life and duked it out in combat with the dragons using Abhorrent Overlord and harpies to block and then use Jar and Games to tutor 7 of his best remaining dragons out of his deck and make him dump them. That Scourge of Valkas would have been pick #1!
After reflecting for a while —
Starting to think I need a bit more lifegain and artifact recursion, so I'm considering removing Vedalken Orrery for Trading Post or Myr Retriever and possibly switching Shred Memory to Suffer the Past or Crypt Incursion. The only problem I see with Crypt Incursion is not hitting the artifacts that certain red decks enjoy recycling. I'll wait until after more games to decide that. I might have enough lifegain and just didn't find it.
My thoughts on tutors are definitely changing a bit. I'm okay with the power level of this deck creeping upward since it's my favorite, but what I was actually concerned about in regard to limiting my tutors was always winning the same way or finding combo pieces too easily/quickly. So goal is flexibility and some inconsistency in what win conditions get used.
I've done pretty well without Caged Sun/Nirkana Revenant so far, and that's without putting Crypt Ghast on the battlefield yet, either. So while the ramping-instead-of-boosters experiment is successful so far (they get blown up way less often), the swamp boosters are probably more powerful as ramp, mathematically. I like Bubbling Muck as a ritual, even though Nirkana Revenant should only ever cost BBB+3 life. But I found myself also wondering if Extraplanar Lens's proper place is as a booster that supplements a primarily land ramp approach. Cheapish enough to serve as a ritual if it gets immediately blown up, but way better than a ritual if it sticks. The ramp also seems to extend its range of usefulness further into the mid-game from the late-game. One of these days I'll test it. If Phyrexian Altar keeps sticking, Lens probably will, too.
He's also a control element if somebody is messing with the top of their deck (Top, Vampiric Tutor/Mystical Tutor, etc.).
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
I can see from the TO list that you've also foiled almost all of it. That also tells me it's an important deck to you.
I'll have more detail about philosophy/approach once I get to writing that section of the OP (there is a little in the OP at the moment). Happy to answer specific questions, though.
More or less I'm trying to stick to some general deckbuilding rules I have across all my decks (e.g., none use Sol Ring), stick to some thematic choices I made after reading about Chainer's backstory, and raise the bar for myself on acceptable self-contained win conditions so that surviving remains challenging and winning remains interesting. Gary/Kokusho/Exsanguinate are probably the easiest example concerning their absence from my list. I used to have Gary and Exsanguinate in the deck (still don't own a Kokusho). Half the times I won it was Exsanguinate, so that stopped being interesting and I removed it - Gary soon followed. Crossed them off the bucket list, so to speak. So that's why there's no life-leeching in the deck, even though it's a great enabler for Chainer. I do have a friend with an Ur-Dragon deck that has Kokusho in it. Though I've stolen it before to win, I'm now more inclined to exile it unless the game has already gone long and needs to end when it makes an appearance.
Game length I guess is another big part of my approach to EDH. I like them intriguing and not too long (1 - 1.5 hours). A longer game can be fun if it's suspenseful, with power swings and comebacks. It's not fun IMO if everybody else is just waiting to die if one player has locked the table down but can't follow it promptly with a win.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Void Winnower
Massacre Wurm
Massacre Wurm is too good to stay out for token control. Void Winnower would keep opponents from blocking with tokens, but not prevent a retaliatory attack. Also I figure the cast-prevention would put a target on me. I was initially worried about outright killing a player with Massacre Wurm, but if they have enough tokens for that to happen then they were getting ready to win anyway and there's a decent chance their stuff was not worth stealing to use against the other players. Or I just sac the Wurm before the -2/-2 trigger resolves and they don't die.
Short list for testing in the near future (I hope): Mimic Vat, Conjurer's Closet, Mind Slash, Pitiless Plunderer, The Haunt of Hightower.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
I'd made a decent number of changes over the past several months, including testing a build that attempted to focus on card draw without tutors. It could still work, but my friends actually convinced me that this deck should still be the "mean" deck. So I returned to using tutors and pulled out some other stops. More thoughts below.
Ashnod's Altar
Bog Initiate
Shred Memory
Diabolic Intent
Dimir House Guard
Fleshwrither
Beseech the Queen
Damnation
All Is Dust
Expedition Map
Wayfarer's Bauble
Bloodgift Demon
Phyrexian Obliterator
Massacre Wurm
Abhorrent Overlord
Vedalken Orrery
Vampiric Rites
Helm of Possession
Mesmeric Orb
Darkness
Demonic Tutor
Final Parting
Increasing Ambition
Razaketh, the Foulblooded
Nevinyrral's Disk
Mutilate
Nirkana Revenant
Sword of the Animist
Demonlord Belzenlok
Void Winnower
Torgaar, Famine Incarnate
Doom Whisperer
Ambition's Cost
Font of Agonies
Ashnod's Altar and Bog Initiate were supposed to be a backup to Phyrexian Altar. Once I get a copy of Pitiless Plunderer, that plus any free sac outlet will serve the same redundancy better. So now I've got Helm of Possession and Mesmeric Orb (testing).
My weak tutors were just that, so I'm going back to good ones. Diabolic Intent may still be a good one to try but may also be a dead card at times. In place of Shred Memory comes Darkness, because surprising folks with a black Fog is still on my bucket list. Then Dimir House Guard, Fleshwrither, and Beseech the Queen are all being replaced by the classic Demonic Tutor, the deck-thematic Increasing Ambition, the badass Razaketh, and Final Parting because I want to try this option over stuff like Buried Alive.
Wipes — I had more wipes in the draw version — don't need that many for my group. Damnation is great, but I want to be able to hit other stuff with Nevinyrral's Disk (plus I used the older, more eldritch-horror art). All is Dust doesn't hit artifacts for the most part, and short Toxic Deluge I wanted another -X/-X solution so Mutilate is in for testing (also older, nightmare/Chainer themed art).
Land stuff — Expedition Map and Wayfarer's Bauble out for Nirkana Revenant and Sword of Rampant Growth to lean into the basic land mana production a little more. Can't wait to put the sword on Mindslicer or XHD.
Beatsticks — Arena-on-a-stick out to test Belzenlok's card accessing. Phyrexian Obliterator out for a different beatstick in the shape of Void Winnower now that devotion doesn't matter except for Nykthos. I removed Massacre Wurm because it can be a "surprise, you lose!" card if somebody has enough tokens, and I want to avoid having that kind option immediately available. It's why Exsanguinate isn't here. Torgaar replaces it so I can fiddle around with life totals to knock lifegain decks down or keep myself alive (20 life is quite comfortable, really). Abhorrent Overlord may someday see play again, but it forms a rather easy loop with just Chainer and Phyrexian Altar, so let's see if I can steal somebody else's ETB token producer for loops and see how Doom Whisperer fares.
Vedalken Orrery is also one of those cards I would love to have in play every game. In its stead, Ambition's Cost is the last piece of the draw-only version that I'm leaving in for now because it's on-theme. And since I pay life to stuff a lot, I'm going to see how Font of Agonies does, replacing Vampiric Rites.
Edit2: And then I go and realize (*facepalm*) that I don't have to let Massacre Wurm kill an opponent. It just has to not be on the battlefield when the creatures die. It's a great piece of control so it'll almost certainly go back in after testing some of these new cards.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Ravnica Allegiance
Sphinx of the Guildpact — A five-color card in a mono-black deck would be a little amusing. A 5/5 flier with hexproof that's pretty decent is also not bad as a beater in my opinion. Might run it some day as a joke.
Awaken the Erstwhile — Zombie tokens aren't my thing, but this could be a more 'fair' alternative to Mindslicer (although Mindslicer is so perfectly on-theme). Mindslicer presents as a huge threat because I can pretty clearly repeat it due to my commander and my opponents get nothing. I have to use XHD to get Awaken back, but the consolation prize of zombies might make it seem "better". Do this to somebody with a huge fist of cards and then follow up with Massacre Wurm or Deadly Tempest? Okay.
Font of Agonies — Probably not as good for removal as Noxious Gearhulk, but something I want to try as an alternative to Attrition. Between Chainer, Necropotence, Erebos/Greed/Arguel's Blood Fast, Doom Whisperer, fetchlands, and even Withering Boon it might have enough fuel.
Pestilent Spirit — It's unfortunate that this doesn't work with mono-black. It's an interesting effect, but almost certainly has to be paired with red.
The Haunt of Hightower — Someday I'll get a copy to test; I don't know why I don't already have a copy. Seems like a fantastic beater for this deck. Flying, lifelink, discard on attack (rather than on damage), automatically grows. And not just growing when cards die, are discarded, or are milled - it'll grow just from opponents casting non-permanents or cracking fetchlands.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Shadows Over Innistrad
Behold the Beyond — Very niche if it's even useful. Would be handy for endgame but otherwise dead in my hand, probably. Really on-theme, though, dang.
Call the Bloodline — Decent discard outlet and the tokens are alright, but costs mana and the "once a turn" clause is pretty limiting.
Corrupted Grafstone — Not great in a mono-color deck. I'd rather use another 2-drop mana rock in its place.
Ever After — Decent reanimation spell, but not what this deck runs on.
Haunted Cloak — I have considered this. Stealing any fatty I want and giving "Vigilance, Trample, Haste" for Equip 1 is pretty nice.
Indulgent Aristocrat — Better in vampires. Or Marchesa.
Macabre Waltz — Does what it does pretty well for two mana.
Merciless Resolve — It's okay. For an additional 1 over Altar's Reap you get the choice of sacrificing a land instead of a creature. Ironic.
Mindwrack Demon — Self-milling evasive beater. Probably viable in a tamer version of this deck.
To the Slaughter — There are better ways to achieve these ends.
Westvale Abbey — If token generation is good in the deck, I want to play with this sometime just to try it out. Just seems funny to reanimate it with Crucible, basically.
Eldritch Moon
Emrakul, the Promised End — Nice beater, but I don't like controlling other player's turns (even though that's probably on-theme for this deck).
Geier Reach Sanitarium — I probably need to test this at some point.
Liliana, the Last Hope — Nah.
Noosegraf Mob — This one is interesting, as it is potentially, pseudo-passive token generation.
Succumb to Temptation — If I tried a build with improved card draw and no tutors, this would probably be in there.
Tree of Perdition — LOL
Kaladesh
Aetherworks Marvel — This one still interests me. However it would probably be way better in Marchesa or Mazirek. I imagine the quantity of sacrifices is larger in Mazirek, whereas in Chainer I'm going more for quality unless I hit a loop. I should start keeping some statistics from Chainer games.
Demon of Dark Schemes — Don't really need this close of a backup to Chainer usually, but the extra energy production could fuel the Marvel if I test it.
Fortuitous Find — We have some important artifacts, so having a way to get one back (or a creature if we need it back to hand rather than reanimated with Chainer) isn't terrible.
Ghirapur Orrery — This one's been on my testing list for a while, too. Can be a double-edged sword if anybody else has land-based mana doubling. The draw-3 ability could possibly help keep discard effects like Sadistic Hypnotist/Mind Slash useful.
Gonti, Lord of Luxury — Already in the deck. One of the central pieces to its ultimate wincon, actually.
Key to the City — Very low on the testing list, possibly if I do an only-draw-no-tutors build.
Marionette Master — An alright token machine. But better in an artifacts-matter deck. I'm also trying to limit the "loses N life" effects.
Noxious Gearhulk — This thing is ridiculous. Every time this thing comes out it just wrecks everything in sight.
Panharmonicon — Since ETB effects are the bread and butter of Chainer, I have considered running this to get extra value from my plays.
Perpetual Timepiece — While a bit of self-mill is useful, I'd rather re-shuffle graveyard with something that doesn't target since there's a deck with Ground Seal in my small meta.
Smuggler's Copter — I like this guy. Maybe not in this deck, but I still like it.
Aether Revolt
Hope of Ghirapur — I still need to try this sometime, but probably in a different deck. Seems like it would be amazing in Alesha, Who Smiles at Death.
Metallic Mimic — Very nice in Marchesa, but not here, I think.
Paradox Engine — I don't run enough artifacts to make this useful.
Planar Bridge — While mana isn't a problem, black has way better tutors.
Treasure Keeper — Could have some potential, maybe? I tend to prefer less randomness in my actual plays (and information revealing) in this deck, though. Worth some playtime at some point to see what effect it has on how I play Chainer.
Yahenni, Undying Partisan — Seems like a better sacrifice outlet than Dimir House Guard, but he's hanging out with Marchesa for the moment.
Amonkhet
Archfiend of Ifnir — This guys seems cool in the right kind of deck.
Final Reward — I like that it's instant. Exile in black is rare enough, but I have other options that are more repeatable.
Gate to the Afterlife — The first ability is nice in this deck, but I have more easily recurred stuff that gives me life and/or cards.
Hour of Devastation
Bontu's Last Reckoning — Not terrible. I could play around the lands part for a round, as I usually wait until the end of a turn to activate Chainer anyway, or as necessary.
Mirage Mirror — This has some pretty sneaky potential.
Razaketh, the Foulblooded — This guy would be a ridiculous threat in this deck.
Torment of Hailfire — An awesome card as a finisher, but that's also why I'm not running it — part of the theme is to use opponents' own threats against them or through combat damage (same reason Exsanguinate isn't in the deck).
Ixalan
Arguel's Blood Fast — Very nice card draw. Currently in Marchesa.
Costly Plunder — Slightly more versatile than Altar's Reap.
Revel in Riches — I like the Treasure tokens better than Black Market, but I don't want the auto-win condition. If it was just the first ability at 3B I'd probably be running it.
Thaumatic Compass — The repeatable basic land fetch is a good tool, but I tend not to have problems hitting land drops and I don't much care for the flipside in this deck.
Rivals of Ixalan
Azor's Gateway — I usually don't have a problem generating B, but that flipside... I could see running this a game or two down the road just for fun.
Dead Man's Chest — The kind of effect this deck wants to win with, ultimately. Gonti is easier to recur, of course, but this is another I might run for fun some day.
Mastermind's Acquisition — Too bad there's no use to the second option in Commander.
Ravenous Chupacabra — Repeatable control is nice, but I have better options.
The Immortal Sun — An interesting card, certainly.
Twilight Prophet — Nice card draw, but another life-leeching effect that I'm specifically avoiding in this deck.
Dominaria
Cabal Stronghold — Nah. Doesn't generate enough advantage. I'd have to cut a probably-more-useful nonbasic or, ironically, a basic.
Chainer's Torment — What? No.
Damping Sphere — I like the speedbump this presents. Ultimately it isn't going to slow Mizzix down much, but it also messes with Coffers and Nykthos. Fortunately doesn't mess with Crypt Ghast/Nirkana Revenant/Caged Sun.
Dark Bargain — This does not excite me.
Demonlord Belzenlok — I've tried to imagine how this would play out, but I basically just need to test it.
Final Parting — This one is alright, if I was nerfing myself by not running Entomb but still allowing tutors.
Helm of the Host — Could be an interesting fun card, but probably won't see time in this deck.
Mox Amber — I do like this rock, but it's probably going to see play in Zada instead.
Phyrexian Scriptures — Not what this deck needs.
The Eldest Reborn — I like all the effects, but I also like to control the timing of them better.
Torgaar, Famine Incarnate — This guy is going in soon. Seems like a really good tool in the toolbox.
Whisper, Blood Liturgist — Creepy minion is on-theme, but I also don't need a backup graveyard-to-battlefield effect.
Yawgmoth's Vile Offering — Meh. I wasn't even going to list it at first, but I feel strongly enough about that Meh.
Guilds of Ravnica
Doom Whisperer — Looking forward to testing this one.
Gruesome Menagerie — If I were running lower to the ground this could be an interesting toolbox piece with XHD.
Mausoleum Secrets — Using tutors that reveal the card or don't are pretty much personal/tactical preference, but a two-mana instant is still pretty darn good.
Midnight Reaper — Whenever a creature itself deals damage on a trigger I try to think of how to weaponize it. It's a nice card, but it's not Dark Prophecy, Grim Haruspex, or Harvester of Souls.
Necrotic Wound — Well it isn't Tragic Slip. Might be alright in my self-milling Sidisi deck where "number of creatures in your graveyard" matters, but morbid is a lot easier in this deck.
Plaguecrafter — I like it. I don't want to run that sacrifice effect much (and Slum Reaper is just more on-theme).
Wand of Vertebrae — Perpetual Timepiece is better. Lots of things are better.
Commander 2018
Ancient Stone Idol — As a big dumb beater I like it. Plus it drops pretty nice tokens. Disciple of Griselbrand, Altar of Dementia, and Disciple of Bolas want a new friend.
Bloodtracker — Neat card, but belongs in a +1/+1 counters deck.
Entreat the Dead — The miracle cost is really nice, but otherwise I probably wouldn't run it in this deck.
Endless Atlas — Pretty easy in a mono-color deck, but mono-black has better card draw options.
Night Incarnate — It's an option and kindof on-theme, but there are other creature-based options I'd use before this for the -X/-X effect.
Skull Storm — Cute, but no thank you. Nine mana isn't worth the creature sacrifice effect, and it gets in the way of preceding it with a board wipe to secure the life-halving effect.
Sower of Discord — Could be handy for enhancing the combat-damage wincon of this deck. No plans to test currently, though.
Stitch Together — Threshold is easy, and for two mana that's a nice low-cost reanimation spell.
Battlebond
Archfiend of Despair — Well I'm not doing life loss, but if I was this guys seems pretty awesome. It's Wound Reflection on a big stick with life gain prevention. A lot of value there.
Krav, the Unredeemed — This guy is interesting. Running him in Marchesa at the moment due to +1/+1 counters.
Stunning Reversal — This is one of those "Gotcha!" cards I just want to try sometime. Seven cards is nice, but it could also squeeze out one more Chainer activation at 3 or less life if things go awry (which is not often).
Thrilling Encore — Fun follow-up to a wipe. Damnation plus this seems preferable to me over Rise of the Dark Realms. Also a nice follow-up to somebody else's wipe. This one might see some actual testing since theft is one of the main goals and five mana is decent even if I just get 2-3 creatures.
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
I recommend newer printings or fifth edition for accurate rules text. One of the two I have is the Deckmasters version with the old art (which I like better) and foil, but it phrases the discard-exile ability as a replacement effect when it's really a triggered ability. Saves time bringing up Oracle text if you want to reanimate something you discarded to save it from exile.
I'm don't think Chainer needs a horse, even if it's a flying nightmare horse.
Not sure about Ink-Eyes, yet. Most games I play somewhat like a control deck, reanimating creatures for their activated or triggered abilities at instant speed in response to something or before my turn. Ink-Eyes isn't as flexible for the reanimation aspect that way, but with some trample she can keep pressure on opponents. Then reanimating via combat sounds better to me. I'll probably test her someday once I get a copy.
I've considered Mindcrank before, as it would speed some things along, except my own graveyard. I almost wish it were symmetrical. I've also considered Mesmeric Orb for a passive milling effect. I might A/B test them in Defense Grid's slot, but I'll give Chainer a rest in my main group for a little while since he kindof dominates, even at the risk of running my life close to zero sometimes.
old thread
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
I don't think Void Winnower would be too bad, as long as one guy in my group finally agrees that zero is even. I was about to find a slot for Winnower at the top of the Birthing Pod curve in my Ruric Thar deck. Eldrazi are definitely on-theme and I'm running a couple right now (the theme does manifest in a number ways, though, not just ugly creatures). Newlamog might be a bit much, as far as power level, but we'll see how that develops and if games with another higher-powered group become more frequent. Pestilence Demon, on the other hand, sounds like a pretty good toolbox to do fun stuff with lifelink and things dying.
old thread
old thread
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
It looks like Sidisi spiders might be my other big gun. Zedruu is probably the best balanced with my most frequent playgroup at the moment (it has almost won a couple times now). That's the fun shenanigans "make the game state interesting" sort of space I'd like the Marchesa grixis clones I'm working on to be in, as well.
old thread
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Gonti nabbed me some countermagic that I used to stop Mizzix's Caged Sun. Later I reanimated him and took Firemind's Foresight (which would have been pretty useful had I cast it).
Praetor's Grasp, however, I aimed at Kaseto. I thought about taking their Phyrexian Metamorph, but there weren't many useful things to copy. Instead I took their Orochi Hatchery. Mizzix attempted somewhat of a one-sided wipe with Comet Storm, killing whatever I had. Kaseto played Skullwinder and I got the Ghast back because they didn't want Mizzix to have the Comet Storm back. I used Kagemaro to wipe, followed by recasting Crypt Ghast and Whip of Erebos, and passed the turn.
Mizzix tapped out to overload Mizzix's Mastery, which ended up only getting them 6 cards by copying Mystic Confluence with Howl of the Horde, because everything else was x. Kaseto pumped up as much as they could and hit me for a decent chunk but didn't kill me. At this point I poured 24 mana into casting the Hatchery and it resolved with 12 counters. After the Ghast's extort trigger, which saved my bacon over the course of the game, I had 5 mana left to activate it, so I did.
Mizzix recasts their commander (I think they were trying to set up for something and needed the discount). Can't remember what Kaseto did, but they tapped out. So I activate the Hatchery again and start drawing a ton of cards with Skullclamp. Down comes Massacre Wurm to take out both of their commanders again. Down comes Blood Artist, and Fallen Ideal attached to the Wurm. I attack Mizzix with the first set of snakes to gain some life and bring them down to 7, then I kill 7 snakes to finish him off with Blood Artist's triggers. Kaseto couldn't really touch my life total now, and got machine-gunned with snakes.
After reflecting on this game, I came to a few decision regarding my next batch of changes.
As for other replacements, I'm considering adding an additional wipe in the form of Life's Finale, Nevinyrral's Disk, or Mutilate. A source of lifegain might be useful because that still seems to be a highly limiting factor, and possibly artifact recursion. For this the good ol' Trading Post toolbox is under consideration, but so is Loxodon Warhammer or Basilisk Collar to encourage me to use combat more.
That 7-drop spot could be Sheoldred, perhaps.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Bone Shredder might be an option over Shriekmaw. Phage strikes me as an odd choice since you don't have XHD or Phyrexian Reclamation to get it back from the graveyard and can't reanimate it.
I like that you're sticking primarily to card draw. If life becomes an issue, Basilisk Collar could be useful with all the big guns you have. Also works well on Pestilence Demon.
Looks good, though.
Now on my Bucket List with Chainer is: reanimate someone else's Kothophed, force it back to them with Homeward Path or Faceless Butcher, then do a sacrifice loop to kill them. Just have to make sure they don't have a sacrifice outlet of their own.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
We'll see if I go for actual Primer status, but I really like this deck and wanted to take a shot at putting together that much structured information about it.
I do know some other primer writers like DementedKirby who give alternate decklists, so that's a possibility I'll consider down the road. I'd probably consider adding a section for a more budget-friendly list before a competitive list. I just don't have fun with stax that keeps other players from playing the game at all. I'm okay with speedbumps and bottlenecks. For example, Chainer can play around Storage Matrix fairly well. I'm also okay with Contamination if it comes down just before a loop to protect that or fish for countermagic, but sticking it on turn 3 to jam up the rest of the table for turn after turn isn't my thing.
I really don't like destroying people's lands, especially — except for spot removal of ridiculous lands. I consider Phyrexian Obliterator a testing spot for this reason because it could be used as a sometimes unblockable 5/5, but instant speed reanimation could abuse it to utterly destroy somebody's board state in the face of a Blasphemous Act or as a surprise blocker.
By the way, where did this competitive example come from?
It is pretty good. I just wish it had flying or something. I once pumped it up to 19/19 and attacked to provoke a chump block to get rid of their creature. Then I resolved Disciple of Bolas and sacked it to that. Fun times.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Once I've honed this approach to Chainer more I might test Black Market (almost certainly in Vedalken Orrery's slot) just to see how it affects how I play the deck, but so far I've had plenty of mana and wanted more life. I feel like Nirkana Revenant would be more likely to keep a slot than Market, though.
Note to self: make a Notable Exclusions section in the Card Choices section.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Thought Gorger
Imp's Mischief
Ice Cauldron
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Dimir House Guard
Diabolic Intent
Dark Deal
All is Dust
Thought Gorger I tried a few times and it wasn't really doing what I wanted, but I did find myself wanting to tutor for one of the noncreature 4-drops, so Dimir House Guard is back.
Imp's Mischief probably won't be as useful with Defense Grid also here, as well as I spend the majority of the time reanimating rather than casting, so for the same reason I'm not too sad if a creature card ends up in the graveyard. Diabolic Intent usually has fodder here for the additional cost, as Demonic Tutor is in another deck (also, being ripped apart and eaten by Crovax is pretty "nightmarish"). Evidently I'm softening slightly on my tutor limitation.
Ice Cauldron is a hilarious effect and I finally got a chance to play with it, but there's nothing I really want to rattlesnake in this deck. Also, I don't want to explain how it works, apparently, so if I ever do try it in another deck, its usefulness better be worth all the explanation. In its place enters Dark Deal, which is more what I wanted out of Thought Gorger in the first place.
Finally, I'm going to test All is Dust instead of Ugin as a wipe that hits enchantments. I probably need better graveyard removal than Shred Memory anyway since that usually serves as a tutor,
but for the most part people are not going to recur their enchantments. Most often they'll be sacrificing creatures, too,
and I probably want them.
Game Recap —
I had a pretty interesting game last Sunday where I got to practice some new interactions, most of which are from additions originating with the thematic rebuild.
Had Thawing Glaciers in my opening hand with two swamps and drew Deserted Temple. Decided to drop the Glaciers turn one so I could activate it next turn.
Bloodghast and Phyrexian Altar did a super impression of Lotus Cobra with all this land fetching (including from a couple of fetchlands). After I cast Rings of Brighthearth, I spent a turn using all of these to go to town on ramping as many basics as I could until I had only three swamps still untapped for either activating Chainer or casting Withering Boon. It was, unfortunately, a long turn — I need to practice these kinds of interactions so I have a rote understanding of how much mana it takes for each cycle of interactions.
With Kaseto, Orochi Archmage and The Ur-Dragon chipping away at my life, Kagemaro, First to Suffer got a lot of use as a wipe, and X was never less than 7 thanks to Grim Haruspex and Bloodghast. The first time, I cast Kagemaro from hand. The second was a bit more desparate and I reanimated him with Chainer and activated him, killing Chainer, too. After this is the turn I ramped like mad, so I had no problem casting Chainer for 5BB.
We also got pretty lucky that Descendants' Path revealed his Scourge of Valkas after the wipe and it went to the bottom of his library.
Had an interesting round of combat where dragons resolved Thundermaw Hellkite while I had Abhorrent Overlord and six harpies. In response I sacked them for black mana and waited for him to do something else so I could respond. He cast Blade of Selves but didn't have enough mana to attach it, and I responded by reanimating the Overlord and getting my flyers back. He attacked me with Kaalia and dropped Mordant Dragon, I think. Blocked and killed them. Definitely a poor choice to attack me then.
The third time I used Kagemaro, however, I was at 12 life and the dragons player had resolved Kokusho on the previous turn. I sacked my Abhorrent Overlord and harpies for mana (I had plenty, but I wanted to stretch it just in case and I needed another reanimation target aside from Kagemaro). I activated Chainer targeting Kagemaro and let that resolve — 9 life. I activate Chainer targeting the Overlord — 6 life. Rings triggers and I respond to it by activating Kagemaro. To this, finally, I respond by sacrificing Chainer, Bloodghast, and Haruspex to raise my cards in hand to 8 and let Chainer go to the graveyard.
Kagemaro's ability resolves, doing -8/-8. Kokusho dies and triggers, which resolves and knocks me down to 1 life. I pay 2 to the Rings trigger to copy Chainer's ability and target Chainer. That resolves and he's back as a nightmare. His original ability resolves and brings back Overlord. I cast the Claws of Gix in my hand, sacking 3 harpies to bring my life up to 4 so I can activate Chainer once and reanimate Kokusho. From there I looped him with Chainer, Phyrexian Altar, and Overlord for the win.
To be candid, I thought I had completely goofed on the math and couldn't activate Chainer again (and had helped kill myself) when I hit 1 life the first time because I had set my hand down before lining up activations. I had been ignoring the Claws of Gix in my hand up until then. It got me out of a corner that I'd put myself in because I wanted to try the Chainer-flickers-himself trick to get around Kagemaro, but I probably could have just cast him for 7BB easily and had enough to reanimate Kokusho.
I also had Wurmcoil Engine in my graveyard, Head Games and Memory Jar in my hand. So I probably could have stabilized my life and duked it out in combat with the dragons using Abhorrent Overlord and harpies to block and then use Jar and Games to tutor 7 of his best remaining dragons out of his deck and make him dump them. That Scourge of Valkas would have been pick #1!
After reflecting for a while —
Starting to think I need a bit more lifegain and artifact recursion, so I'm considering removing Vedalken Orrery for Trading Post or Myr Retriever and possibly switching Shred Memory to Suffer the Past or Crypt Incursion. The only problem I see with Crypt Incursion is not hitting the artifacts that certain red decks enjoy recycling. I'll wait until after more games to decide that. I might have enough lifegain and just didn't find it.
My thoughts on tutors are definitely changing a bit. I'm okay with the power level of this deck creeping upward since it's my favorite, but what I was actually concerned about in regard to limiting my tutors was always winning the same way or finding combo pieces too easily/quickly. So goal is flexibility and some inconsistency in what win conditions get used.
I've done pretty well without Caged Sun/Nirkana Revenant so far, and that's without putting Crypt Ghast on the battlefield yet, either. So while the ramping-instead-of-boosters experiment is successful so far (they get blown up way less often), the swamp boosters are probably more powerful as ramp, mathematically. I like Bubbling Muck as a ritual, even though Nirkana Revenant should only ever cost BBB+3 life. But I found myself also wondering if Extraplanar Lens's proper place is as a booster that supplements a primarily land ramp approach. Cheapish enough to serve as a ritual if it gets immediately blown up, but way better than a ritual if it sticks. The ramp also seems to extend its range of usefulness further into the mid-game from the late-game. One of these days I'll test it. If Phyrexian Altar keeps sticking, Lens probably will, too.
Updating OP soon.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko