I generally haven't had it too rough against those deck types, because even if they can handle Supreme Verdict, I have Flickerwisp, Lone Missionary, and Path to Exile to buy me time until Sun Titan gives me infinite recursion on blockers. I'd think running Restoration Angel helps too. But yeah, I guess Wall of Omens not being a great blocker does make it a harder matchup.
I piloted the G/W build for a few months before, so just have some questions/suggestions. Why the Pridemage in the MB? I could easily see Pridemage and one Raminup Excavator being cut or sideboarded for three Renigade Rallier. Being able to turn four Titan consistantly seems worth it. Plus Excivator gets worse in multiples, three should gaurentee that you always see him. Also looking at your manabase, Scattered Groves and Field of Ruinshould be a definate inclusion as it synergizes so well with Excivator. Lastly, I feel you need a source of consistant card advantage. Wall is amazing but you'll feel the difference in consistency if you jump from 11 cantrips to 4. Evolutionary Leap, Thraben Inspector, Oath of Nissa, Tireless Tracker, or Nissa, Voice of Zendikar can all help mitigate this issue.
Maximizing the number of Excavators is a nod to the importance of continuing to make land drops and the power of GQ recursion. Three could be okay, depending on how much removal you expect.
Rallier is certainly a valid choice. I don't know that it makes a turn 4 Titan "consistent," but it will help the amount of times you get it on turn 5. It does add another 3-drop though, and I wasn't sure there were quite enough sacrifice effects to make it reliable.
Field of Ruin could be good. I didn't include them because I wanted to keep a high Plains count while having many sources of Green mana. I also don't have tons of basics. But 1-2 copies could definitely be fit in.
Scattered Groves is okay. I dislike playing too many EtBT effects in my manabase, but 1-2 more could fit.
The Pridemages could be SBed.
As far as more CA goes, Leap, Inspector, and Oath shouldn't really count. Tracker and Nissa look good though, especially with Excavators. The former is probably easier to cast, and gets the extra cards at your own pace (plus it's great with Excavator and fetchlands). However, we already have a huge source of CA: recurring fetchlands with Excavator will get us extra lands and improving the quality of our regular draws; Sun Titan and Emeria are a massive source of CA in the late game, and Wrath/Day can be a massive source of CA in the mid-game. I think two or three Tracker is probably the way to go, if you want more. But that CMC=3 slot is starting to look very crowded.
Yeah, the Ramunap Excavator play is more interesting the more I think about it. It also allows you to ensure your own land drops with a fetchland, which is very handy with Emeria. Measuring Blue vs Green, I actually do agree that Excavator may be the thing that pushes it into real consideration. While Seas and Hussar are great, Image is pretty nice, and Sphere and Verdict are definite upgrades, I don't know if that measures up to the raw inevitability created by being able to use GQ twice a turn, every turn, or creating an infinite supply of Wraths.
Well, I guess you can completely sabotage your development by sacrificing them over and over. But I guess it's worthwhile against Tron. This is really why I play blue, though: Spreading Seas does most of that job.
yeah i can see that the association with unburial rites and past in flames decks makes gifts look like a bad fit but i've found that with gideon blanking the opponent's biggest threat and one or two walls out, i often want to slow roll on supreme verdict/d sphere and gifts solves the problem of what to do on turns 4-8 when you're waiting for emeria to come online.
I actually wasn't considering PiF at all. Gifts Ungiven was evaluated a long time ago in the deck on it's own merit. It was incorporated into the build with Unburial Rites as a way to accelerate Sun Titan. People also used it as a way to tutor up Wrath by getting Verdict/Wrath/Day/Damnation.
As far as what to do on turns 4-8? I find casting more cantrips and Sun Titan to be pretty good.
I know you guys are less keen on the GW variety, and its probably incorrect to not run Renegade Rallier at all, but I found when using it that in the games it was good I was already far ahead, and when I was behind it was a miserable. Nissa has been exceptional, a real game winner when she drops, animating a land or getting back a permanent to be recast is super useful.
Does anyone have any helpful advice to make this more competitive. I ran the "stock" GW Rallier Emeria build through an MTGO league and just got absolutely wrecked so I'm experimenting!
Edit: Does anyone have any thoughts about Bishop of Rebirth as potential Sun Titan's 5-8?
Edit 2: Super corner case I know, but Wheel of Sun and Moon targeting yourself against a mill deck is absolutely hilarious.
It's definitely different than other Green-using builds I've seen of the deck. I'm not crazy about Visionary over the last Wall of Omens, since we're really not positioned to be aggressive and the Wall is better defensively. I also definitely like Sakura Tribe Elder more than Ranger. Nissa VF isn't great: Sun Titans and Emeria basically recur all of our permanents anyway. Eternal Witness could let us get spells, and be recurred itself though (Wrath + Witness + Emeria = infinite Wraths). Primeval Titan is nice, as it accelerates Emeria and finds GQs which can the combine with Sun Titan for a lockout. I'm not sure it doesn't overload the high mana, but it's pretty cool.
Bishop of Rebirth is limited in that it can only return creatures, has no cast trigger, and is far weaker. If I wanted more things in the 5-6 range, I'd be thinking about PWs and more Titans.
Wheel of Sun and Moon is one of the best answers to graveyard-strategies as well, since it's one-sided. Might be worth playing in the SB regardless.
Yeah, hyperlink and other functionality is much easier to find on a desktop.
Gideon of the Trials is a card many of us have adopted; it's pretty good all-around. Restoration Angel is something that we've tried, and is not a very popular pick but isn't that out of the ordinary either. It's CMC=4, but it's flash, adds value, and is decently sized enough to do good work. Usually, people who only play 3 total Sun Titan + Elspeth, Sun's Champion will include 1-2 copies of Resto.
As for Gifts Ungiven, this is a card that got a lot of experimentation combined with Unburial Rites two or three years ago. It's not a bad card, but it really does feel like a very different deck/build than the traditional Sun Titan- and Emeria-based approaches we center on here.
Yeah, that was a perfect curve from their deck, with a bit of spot removal that ordinarily wouldn't pass muster for them. I don't know that Spreading Seas is good in that matchup, though I suppose it's not abysmal. Having other creature removal like Blessed Alliance might have helped.
Something to keep in mind is that we are basically almost the designated prey for that sort of deck: they're an aggro deck which specifically plays better when their opponents' use Islands. For that reason, our only plan of action is to stall into Verdict. Life gain can actually be better than blocking for that reason.
I don't actually feel this matchup is any worse than the classic mono-blue builds. They're a bit faster, but they don't have the singular overpowering threat of Master of Waves. We still want as many Verdicts as possible, though.
Ephara isn't bad per se, but we generate card advantage in other ways. We also play a lot of sweepers, so the Devotion count could be challenging. I feel like she'd shine more in a mid-range deck with lots of Flash creatures, where you could potentially be taking advantage of her ability on your opponent's turn as well. UW Spirits seems like a reasonable place to play her.
That MB is only slightly different than mine is right now. I find the Elspeth SC to be an interesting call, and was surprised to see this with the Gideon otT, rather than a 4th Sun Titan or another Gideon. Either way, really nice to see the deck continue to do well. I guess I might have to dust mine off and take it to a tourney.
So, I actually base cracking my fetches on a few factors, but the largest one is: do I have enough land? If I have enough land, I crack them to thin lands out of the deck. If I lack sufficient land, I'll delay using them as long as possible to increase my odds of drawing more lands. An exception might be if, for instance, I'm against a creature deck and Court Hussar buries two of my Verdicts. But barring that, it's all about land count.
Burnished Hart is an interesting piece of acceleration that can lead to a turn-5 Titan, or speed up Emeria activation. The big problem is that it requires a 5-mana investment, some of which will prevent you from casting Supreme Verdict on turn-4. It also only searches up basic lands, which limits its utility slightly.
It might be playable, but I rank it below most of our other mana-finding technologies. In games where a turn-5 Titan is relevant and I have extra turn-4 mana, Path to Exile can accomplish a similar feat.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Not actually sure she does much here.
Maximizing the number of Excavators is a nod to the importance of continuing to make land drops and the power of GQ recursion. Three could be okay, depending on how much removal you expect.
Rallier is certainly a valid choice. I don't know that it makes a turn 4 Titan "consistent," but it will help the amount of times you get it on turn 5. It does add another 3-drop though, and I wasn't sure there were quite enough sacrifice effects to make it reliable.
Field of Ruin could be good. I didn't include them because I wanted to keep a high Plains count while having many sources of Green mana. I also don't have tons of basics. But 1-2 copies could definitely be fit in.
Scattered Groves is okay. I dislike playing too many EtBT effects in my manabase, but 1-2 more could fit.
The Pridemages could be SBed.
As far as more CA goes, Leap, Inspector, and Oath shouldn't really count. Tracker and Nissa look good though, especially with Excavators. The former is probably easier to cast, and gets the extra cards at your own pace (plus it's great with Excavator and fetchlands). However, we already have a huge source of CA: recurring fetchlands with Excavator will get us extra lands and improving the quality of our regular draws; Sun Titan and Emeria are a massive source of CA in the late game, and Wrath/Day can be a massive source of CA in the mid-game. I think two or three Tracker is probably the way to go, if you want more. But that CMC=3 slot is starting to look very crowded.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Off the top of my head:
2 Forest
6 Plains
2 Canopy Vista
2 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
2 Lone Missionary
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Sakura Tribe Elder
4 Wall of Omens
2 Eternal Witness
4 Flickerwisp
4 Ramunap Excavator
4 Sun Titan
4 Path to Exile
2 Gideon of the Trials
2 Day of Judgment
2 Wrath of God
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
I actually wasn't considering PiF at all. Gifts Ungiven was evaluated a long time ago in the deck on it's own merit. It was incorporated into the build with Unburial Rites as a way to accelerate Sun Titan. People also used it as a way to tutor up Wrath by getting Verdict/Wrath/Day/Damnation.
As far as what to do on turns 4-8? I find casting more cantrips and Sun Titan to be pretty good.
It's definitely different than other Green-using builds I've seen of the deck. I'm not crazy about Visionary over the last Wall of Omens, since we're really not positioned to be aggressive and the Wall is better defensively. I also definitely like Sakura Tribe Elder more than Ranger. Nissa VF isn't great: Sun Titans and Emeria basically recur all of our permanents anyway. Eternal Witness could let us get spells, and be recurred itself though (Wrath + Witness + Emeria = infinite Wraths). Primeval Titan is nice, as it accelerates Emeria and finds GQs which can the combine with Sun Titan for a lockout. I'm not sure it doesn't overload the high mana, but it's pretty cool.
Bishop of Rebirth is limited in that it can only return creatures, has no cast trigger, and is far weaker. If I wanted more things in the 5-6 range, I'd be thinking about PWs and more Titans.
Wheel of Sun and Moon is one of the best answers to graveyard-strategies as well, since it's one-sided. Might be worth playing in the SB regardless.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Welcome to the club
Yeah, hyperlink and other functionality is much easier to find on a desktop.
Gideon of the Trials is a card many of us have adopted; it's pretty good all-around. Restoration Angel is something that we've tried, and is not a very popular pick but isn't that out of the ordinary either. It's CMC=4, but it's flash, adds value, and is decently sized enough to do good work. Usually, people who only play 3 total Sun Titan + Elspeth, Sun's Champion will include 1-2 copies of Resto.
As for Gifts Ungiven, this is a card that got a lot of experimentation combined with Unburial Rites two or three years ago. It's not a bad card, but it really does feel like a very different deck/build than the traditional Sun Titan- and Emeria-based approaches we center on here.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Something to keep in mind is that we are basically almost the designated prey for that sort of deck: they're an aggro deck which specifically plays better when their opponents' use Islands. For that reason, our only plan of action is to stall into Verdict. Life gain can actually be better than blocking for that reason.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Cool report, and not a bad showing for a deck that I thought was on the outs. Care to share the list that went along with the performance?
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
It might be playable, but I rank it below most of our other mana-finding technologies. In games where a turn-5 Titan is relevant and I have extra turn-4 mana, Path to Exile can accomplish a similar feat.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB