Question for the council (although i might have missed the answer somewhere):
With Basic #2 starting up, I noticed that it still follows the 50/50 split of newbs to experienced (i.e. 6 for each). However, the "your first basic" thread is still looking for 12 newbs for a game.
Was there a reason for this, or is this left over from the newb games?
Hmmm, Probably a good point. Perhaps we should cut the Queue to 8. We always have one or two newbs who sign up for the queue but not the actual game.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Could the game that lost here be resubmitted to the FTQ?
It seems more fair than running one game after another, but gives it a chance to see the light of play in a reasonable time frame...
It could yes.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Problem: we're running a specialty already. The FTQ works as a 2nd specialty running alongside the normal one. And we currently have a full load of games going and both of these games would seem to be very attention-demanding.
Ghost Town would seemingly require you know, players to be paying attention for a while (even after death) while true name would require careful playing as well as replacements to stay active. That's a bit hard to do if we have a lot of games running at once.
A better solution would be to run one of these games now and run the other one after that one ends. Both appear to be worthy of making the FTQ queue. The only problem with this is that it'll back up the FTQ line for those who want to get involved in the next game's selection process, but i'd be more willing to do that.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
See stormblind, here's your fail in your thinking....you think that a town-death's vampire would ever get shot by the mafia? They'd leave him alive cuz he's a freaking doofus.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I also agree with ecophagy here...we have such a scale, its the basic/mini/normal/specialty scale.
If you sign up for a specialty, be prepared for anything. If you sign up for minis or normals, be prepared for a possibly somewhat complex game, but not too complex, while basics are basic.
A numeric scale will encourage mod-gaming.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
We don't want a more "advanced" field of roles for the basic games. The entire point of them is that they are simple and distinguished from the regular Normal/Mini games that people have to wait years to get to host. The difference between the "Basic" game and the "Newb" game is not in the type of roles allowed, but in who is allowed to play in them - i.e. everyone.
And if people get bored with basic games then they won't fill up and it's self limiting in that way. But that queue should not be competing with the regular games, and we shouldn't be stretching the type of roles allowed.
Now, exactly what's a "Basic" role has not exactly been established yet. But I would say we were talking about something like some combination of:
Cop
Doc
Role-Blocker
Vigilante (preferably 1-shot in a mini)
maybe a scum GF.
And not a whole lot else, frankly. These are not the games for Mods to be exercizing their creativity. They are for the players who like that sort of game and aren't able to get it much, and also for new people to get their feet wet in.
There's certainly some room for discussion here as to what kind of roles should be possible - but the guiding principle should be less roles, not more.
Agreed. I'd be fine with Tracker/Watcher or Mafia Rolecop too. But they should not be very wacky, should have some vanillas, etc etc.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I think co-modding is a better idea. I think having a good mod in a newb game is really important. Ofcourse, day-modding can be learned by hosting a newb game, but designing a game, and handling night choices can't.
I think both are good ideas. Basic/Newbs have to be approved by some sort of reviewer and they're a not-too-complicated way for new players to see how handling night actions works.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I think it would be great if all queues followed this system. Can't know when a game will start, but at least they start in rapid succession while at the same time not creating an overflow.
It would also fix the offer/demand problem. Better so than my suggestion.
Mind you, I'd only be in favor of the newb games being replaced with basic games, and for them to follow the newb queue as is going now. Perhaps I'd make it so that only 8 newbs need to sign up in that queue to start a basic game, with an 8-4 split rather than the 6-6 of the trial game....Experienced players who can add to a commitment can sign up for the basic games, but it wouldn't cause an overload.
The other queues should stay the same imo...i really don't feel we should or need to expand. And if we were to do so, I'd advise putting a 3 game cap on players....I wouldn't want to add games just to dilute quality of players' play in their games while not really helping increase the opportunities for players who aren't in any other games.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Well, part of the problem is that, no matter how many games one plays, the modding experience is quite removed from the playing experience. Even at The Greenwood Affair, I was still making mistakes in resolving issues, balancing issues, and fixing crises, and I had modded three games prior to that. And while some of TGA's issues might have been removed via review (especially the Jester - this game is a great case in point for why normals should be reviewed, because I thought it was perfectly fine when I wrote it and it was a cluster♥♥♥♥), I think there are some things that can only come with experience, which is why I think that some variation on requirement 2 I posted would be beneficial even externally of any benefit from reducing the list - it would show aspiring mods how modding works, rather than just giving them a box of parts and saying "make something beautiful, kid".
Mind you, you're an exceptional case....your games are (no offense) almost more works of art and concepts than mafia games at times....the amount of originality you put in them makes them incredibly hard to balance, jester aside. So don't feel THAT badly.
As for modding experience, here's an easy solution...make newb games into basic games, and make the basic queue like the newb queue is now. Mods get off that list ridiculously quickly, are limited in their works but get to see how players truly interact with given roles and have a better feel for modding and what to do when creating a setup.
Priority to modding these basic/newb games could be given to those who haven't modded before to help them learn to mod and get on the other lists.
Alternatively, a player could co-mod a game with another player....if he has done one of these two things (modded a newb game, or co-mod another type of game, he can be eligible to mod a game.
And the "linear signup" argument originally posited was directed less at balancing setups and more resolving the crazy-long lines to get a game to run in the first place, which is why I proposed those two requirement changes.
As for the crazy long lines, i think they're inevitable. Lets face it, this IS NOT a mafia site. It's an mtg site that has a mafia community. Unless we want to make this a smaller competitor to mafiascum, which i wouldn't want anyhow, we really are going to have longer lines because of the limits on amount of games going at the same time.
Efforts to reduce waiting times are mostly ridiculous, though things like the FTQ games encourage players to try and create new innovative games that the community is willing to let them run without a long wait due to their potential to feed the community.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
One must note (something I forgot in my last post) was that ICHM was exceptional because Misetings mafia games have (I guess now "had") a very fast pace, which Dantes was able to take advantage of to make the game go rapidly. Of course, he paired this with a few mechanics one might deem questionable, like four players who couldn't vote immediately but counted toward the lynch margin.
Of the two games I have on the list, the first - the mini, in which I will be testing this - is much less complicated than the second, which is getting prepped to submit to FTQ. In the interest of getting a preliminary take on it, I'll pose it to the community:
It's simple, actually - day 1 lasts 3 weeks, days 2+ last 2 weeks, with regular-length nights, with an optional 1-week extension if the mod deems it necessary. This, I feel, gives the benefits of a rigid deadline with the opportunity for change if something comes up, a problem most unwavering deadlines frequently have. Plus the deadlines set up by this system, at least with extensions, are close to those of most games. I may tinker with it for the FTQ game (perhaps allowing the town to save up time, ala "rollover minutes"? I dunno), but I think this is the kind of system we ought to at least strongly advise for mods to institute.
The biggest problem with mods and deadlines is usually that mods, because they aren't in the game, aren't able to glean an idea of where the players in the game think they are, which makes it tricky to set deadlines, and because players usually don't ask for deadlines, you end up with a system where mods institute deadlines, players complain about said deadlines, and the mods subsequently avoid deadlines and the game bogs down. The simplest solution of course is for players to stop complaining, but there are situations where deadlines are actually harmful. I think a system like the one proposed above would help cut down on games bogging down, because players would have a direct disincentive to slacking off without too much rigidity in case things come up.
Of course, one problem that always occurs when these systems are used is that the mafia lurk like madmen, and other players who lurk usually also lurk, which screws everyone. The solution is to actually follow the rules of prodding that are set out in the rules. Usually, mods say "I'll prod you if are absent", but they frequently wait longer than prescribed in the rules (e.g. in my previous games, the "I'll prod you and replace you quickly" bit was usually a bluff, because my prods required more than four days to go out). I think a rigorously enforced "If you don't post once every 72 hours, you get a prod; again, and you get replaced" rule is necessary. The disadvantage to this system, of course, is that the mods proceed to not pay enough attention - another general issue with keeping players involved - but with enough work/a co-mod, this should be doable.
@ "Linear queues" - unfortunately, the ability for mods to get in after three games means that people get in as soon as they can, whether they're qualified/will be here at that time notwithstanding. This, needless to say, is a problem. And I don't have statistics to back this up, but I think that first-time mods simply do less well than more experienced mods, which I think is somewhat symptomatic of a system that reinforces signing up as soon as you can.
So I propose a new system: to sign up to mod a game, you need to have one of two things:
1) Have played in six games, of which no more than 3 can be newb games, and of which at least five have completed.
2) Have assisted with another player's game (like a co-mod, but more geared toward teaching the player how to run an effective game).
See, for instance, me as a perfect example. Heck, for me, hosting my own games didn't necessarily help (although my first two games, both on 'News, were killed respectively by a setup that wasn't ripped apart by the reviewer and a fatal error on my part that killed balance). W/r/t the latter, I think that had I had a "practice" modding experience, I wouldn't have made the mistake (which was making a megalomaniac, a jack-of-all-trades whose abilities don't work, actually succeed by overlooking that characteristic of his role, which made him both confirmed and overwhelmingly powerful).
What do you think? I think the latter of these two options would make players much more adept at modding and would cut down on the list by motivating new mods to pair up with old mods to get experience before joining the list. I would argue that you want the second qualification, either with or without the first. At the very least, I think that 3 games is too low a bar at this point.
See...well, i don't think we have a problem with amount of game being run, how signups are fun, or how mods get to sign up....Even if the system does totally incentivize getting on a hosting list as soon as possible, the lists are long enough that a player should be experienced enough to mod by the time his turn comes around.
Any crazy balance issues can be solved by REVIEWING....which is an encouraged policy i'm happy to see occuring in this site nowadays.
&&FOR THE RECORD, I'm heavily against lurking in general and would wish mods would adopt more of a heavy handed policy toward it....if a player says a 2 sentence no context post every 2 days, he should get prodded and replaced....its a playstyle that benefits no one and takes the enjoyment out of the f'ing game. If a player is at least in those short posts attempting to make a points its fine, but too many players, ugh.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
A preset deadline is a great way for a mod to ensure the game will keep its pace at any time without making arbitrary decisions during the game that may favor one side (keeping mod interference low).
I have decided for myself that it is a positive force in a game, but I wonder how a fair generalized rule could be created... We don't even have a strictly defined upper player number, which itself influences the game time very strongly (and hence has to be considered in the ruling).
On the other hand a perfect game is always shorter than one reaching a 2v1 heartbeat final.
greetings
Z
I'm firmly against a generalized deadline rule...if a mod wants it, let him in put it himself.
I'm also against deadlines being preset by mods or having rules that create deadlines in the game naturally.....I feel a good mod should keep an eye on his game and if it starts to delay itself (Like say Batman mafia's way too long day 1) a mod can then impose a deadline.
I think pre-set deadlines give an edge to scum that is often uncalculated in setups and i feel that game play should be determined more by skill than by who was skating by under not the most suspicion near a deadline.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
What about raising the Basic Game limit to 16 players?
I'm against this. 12 is a really good setup, it also means games go relatively briskly, which is a good thing for basic games....especially if we intend to have them supplant or co-support newb games. I like the large contrast in effort required and number of posts in the minis compared to normals, if that makes sense.
16 gets close to normals in terms of size.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Doubt it. There's some hosts dedicated to minis out there, and if the queue gets short enough people will start migrating over for shorter waiting periods. And if not, I'll take one for the team and run all the minis ;).
Agreed. I'm currently on the mini list, because i wanted to host faster and i already ran a normal. And the mini queue goes much faster, which will always spur interest.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
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Hmmm, Probably a good point. Perhaps we should cut the Queue to 8. We always have one or two newbs who sign up for the queue but not the actual game.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
I believe its fairly obvious which game was mine.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
It could yes.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Problem: we're running a specialty already. The FTQ works as a 2nd specialty running alongside the normal one. And we currently have a full load of games going and both of these games would seem to be very attention-demanding.
Ghost Town would seemingly require you know, players to be paying attention for a while (even after death) while true name would require careful playing as well as replacements to stay active. That's a bit hard to do if we have a lot of games running at once.
A better solution would be to run one of these games now and run the other one after that one ends. Both appear to be worthy of making the FTQ queue. The only problem with this is that it'll back up the FTQ line for those who want to get involved in the next game's selection process, but i'd be more willing to do that.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
If you sign up for a specialty, be prepared for anything. If you sign up for minis or normals, be prepared for a possibly somewhat complex game, but not too complex, while basics are basic.
A numeric scale will encourage mod-gaming.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Agreed. I'd be fine with Tracker/Watcher or Mafia Rolecop too. But they should not be very wacky, should have some vanillas, etc etc.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
I think both are good ideas. Basic/Newbs have to be approved by some sort of reviewer and they're a not-too-complicated way for new players to see how handling night actions works.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Not really, and if it does, its not enforced.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Mind you, I'd only be in favor of the newb games being replaced with basic games, and for them to follow the newb queue as is going now. Perhaps I'd make it so that only 8 newbs need to sign up in that queue to start a basic game, with an 8-4 split rather than the 6-6 of the trial game....Experienced players who can add to a commitment can sign up for the basic games, but it wouldn't cause an overload.
The other queues should stay the same imo...i really don't feel we should or need to expand. And if we were to do so, I'd advise putting a 3 game cap on players....I wouldn't want to add games just to dilute quality of players' play in their games while not really helping increase the opportunities for players who aren't in any other games.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Mind you, you're an exceptional case....your games are (no offense) almost more works of art and concepts than mafia games at times....the amount of originality you put in them makes them incredibly hard to balance, jester aside. So don't feel THAT badly.
As for modding experience, here's an easy solution...make newb games into basic games, and make the basic queue like the newb queue is now. Mods get off that list ridiculously quickly, are limited in their works but get to see how players truly interact with given roles and have a better feel for modding and what to do when creating a setup.
Priority to modding these basic/newb games could be given to those who haven't modded before to help them learn to mod and get on the other lists.
Alternatively, a player could co-mod a game with another player....if he has done one of these two things (modded a newb game, or co-mod another type of game, he can be eligible to mod a game.
As for the crazy long lines, i think they're inevitable. Lets face it, this IS NOT a mafia site. It's an mtg site that has a mafia community. Unless we want to make this a smaller competitor to mafiascum, which i wouldn't want anyhow, we really are going to have longer lines because of the limits on amount of games going at the same time.
Efforts to reduce waiting times are mostly ridiculous, though things like the FTQ games encourage players to try and create new innovative games that the community is willing to let them run without a long wait due to their potential to feed the community.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
See...well, i don't think we have a problem with amount of game being run, how signups are fun, or how mods get to sign up....Even if the system does totally incentivize getting on a hosting list as soon as possible, the lists are long enough that a player should be experienced enough to mod by the time his turn comes around.
Any crazy balance issues can be solved by REVIEWING....which is an encouraged policy i'm happy to see occuring in this site nowadays.
&&FOR THE RECORD, I'm heavily against lurking in general and would wish mods would adopt more of a heavy handed policy toward it....if a player says a 2 sentence no context post every 2 days, he should get prodded and replaced....its a playstyle that benefits no one and takes the enjoyment out of the f'ing game. If a player is at least in those short posts attempting to make a points its fine, but too many players, ugh.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
I'm firmly against a generalized deadline rule...if a mod wants it, let him in put it himself.
I'm also against deadlines being preset by mods or having rules that create deadlines in the game naturally.....I feel a good mod should keep an eye on his game and if it starts to delay itself (Like say Batman mafia's way too long day 1) a mod can then impose a deadline.
I think pre-set deadlines give an edge to scum that is often uncalculated in setups and i feel that game play should be determined more by skill than by who was skating by under not the most suspicion near a deadline.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
I'm against this. 12 is a really good setup, it also means games go relatively briskly, which is a good thing for basic games....especially if we intend to have them supplant or co-support newb games. I like the large contrast in effort required and number of posts in the minis compared to normals, if that makes sense.
16 gets close to normals in terms of size.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Agreed. I'm currently on the mini list, because i wanted to host faster and i already ran a normal. And the mini queue goes much faster, which will always spur interest.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity