What are this decks best and worst matchups in the current meta? Haven't played in 6 months or so and trying to get back into modern.
We don't have many bad match-ups actually, most of our "Bad Match-ups" are very close as in 45/55 in thier favour But I'll try to list off which match ups are good and which are bad. If you have questions why, I'll answer it in a different post.
Good Match-ups: Jund, Burn,(Very Tricky Match-up, really depends on the Pilots skill) Tron/Eldrazi Tron, Any Scapeshift/Titan Deck, Infect, Puresteel Paladin, Goryo's Vengance/Bird Brain.
Bad Match-ups: Grixis control/Delver, Abzan, Storm, Ad Nauesum, Revolt Zoo, Elves/Merfolk(Really Depends on how wide they are able to go, I consider them a bad match-up because like Zoo they are able to go wide fast, and Unless we see 2 or 3 cards of disruption followed up by a large threat, they can stall the game out and wait to draw into a win-con.)
If I am forgetting anything feel free to point it out. Made this list quickly at work!
are you sure about these? where are you getting this from?
I've anecdotally found Tron and Bant Eldrazi to be very bad, as well as Lantern Control
also, i've found zoo to be generally OK, as our maindeck pushes and tarfires have all the targets =).
meanwhile, i'm fairly certain that regular "normal" jund is favoured against us, because they pack so much more removal, have ways to close out the game once it gets to topdecking, and they have card advantage which we don't.
so yeah - where did you get this information? the 45/55 comment doesn't seem to ring true either.... i'm just not sure where you're coming from here. like, sure, any opponent can stumble and be hit by a timely thoughtseize, regardless of deck. that's them getting "junded out", but over 100 games, or 1000 games, it all averages out. you can't say we don't have bad matchups because of your own experiences, if that's where it's coming from.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Went to a ~60 person tournament yesterday with the deck (white splash) and didn't do so great :(, missed my win & in for top8
Round 1 grixis control. Loss
Win first game easily.
Second game, was forced to keep a hand with no discard but a couple of threats. Got myself into a good spot but a ripped damnation off the top crushed me.
Third game, made a misplay (this is the story of the day, really) and threw away a death's shadow by making an incorrect attack.
1-2
Round 2 Zoo, win
Won two quick games with a couple of fatal pushes, a tarfire and a threat. Nothing really to say here...
Round 3 grixis delver, win
Again 2 quick games. A discard spell followed by a fatal push was enough to let a single goyf go the distance in both games. It's simple "jund 'em out".
Round 4 death & taxes, win
Two quick games. A deck full if tarfire and fatal push makes this relatively easy. I could have won with a 2/2 zombie in these games, it was straightforward.
At this point I'm 3-1 and a win in my next round secures me for top8 (if I draw in the final round).
Round 5 tron, loss
Game 1, turn 1 thoughtseize away an o-stone and see not much going on besides 2 tron lands. Get on the beatdown but opponent gets natural tron into Ugin to just crush me instantly. Feels bad.
Game 2 (get this!) opening hand of 2x fulminator mage, 1x surgical extraction, 3 lands and a bauble. Decide that this is enough on the play, with a couple of draws, to get going. Opponent plays turn 1 relic of progenitus with a tower. I durdle. Opponent plays a SECOND tower (this is where it started to fall apart) and passes. Turn 3 I play my first fulminator but don't have a decent target so leave it on the battlefield. He plays sanctum of Ugin & fetches a mine off a map. Still no decent targets & he's leaving 1 mana up for relic to counter my surgical extraction. I finally draw a goyf but decide to play out my second fulminator. My misplay here is that I decided to sac both fulminators and remove both towers, to set him back two land drops and keep him completely off tron. Meanwhile I've got a useless traverse, a 0/1 goyf and no real pressure. My opponent has Ugin and Karn in hand. My opponent ruthlessly (and correctly) kept 1 mana up for his relic the whole time, so I had no chance to extract his towers. When he started exiling his own towers from his yard, I saw the writing on the wall. He naturally drew the remaining tron lands off the top, including his final tower(!!!) after I ghost quartered his third one. He drew everything he needed card after card. I meanwhile drew the goyf half of my deck and a maelstrom pulse, which didn't really do anything. Goyfs were never bigger than 1/2s the whole game. Looking back I recognise that there were three critical misplays I made during the game. 1 was going for the towers and not waiting for him to play his second tron piece. 2 was not traversing for a death's shadow and instead choosing to get a ghost quarter. 3 was not playing the goyf earlier; it might have forced him to crack his relic. I believe I had the tools to win this second game but fluffed it up.
At this point I was out of top8 contention and felt kind of salty, and proceeded to misplay my way out of the 6th round as well, against dredge.
So I went from being in a win&in to finishing 3-3 overall which is pretty bad.
One thing I learnt; this deck is REALLY HARD to play optimally. Maybe the hardest I've played ever (harder than normal jund). There are so many subtle choices that mean big consequences later in the game. My main opponent was misplays.
Another thing I learnt; when the deck wins, it just "junds 'em out". The deck isn't explicitly broken, it just plays discard into a threat and gets there. Often, the threat could be literally anything, but sometimes the size of your threats makes a difference.
Another thing I learnt; boarded in lingering souls a bunch of times and most of the time it just felt like having blockers & delaying the inevitable. Going to try straight jund from now on.
Final thought; the deck needs more graveyard hate (spellbomb) and some way to remove 5-toughness creatures (terminate or dismember)
Felt like I didn't do the deck justice, honestly. Haven't felt that way for a while so I need lots more practice. Get that muscle memory and instinct going because at the moment I'm having to over-think everything.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
how do we feel about anger of the gods in the sideboard?
necessary? I've started running 2 without any testing, due to another list running them. I feel like they are decent enough, but it raises the question - what is it for? I guess the obvious answer is dredge... but beyond that, are we just ok running spot removal? I like being able to 2-for-1 merfolk, zoo and the like. that's awesome. but do we *need* to be able to do this, or should I run a reclamation sage/collective brutality/something else in their place?
finally - Worship. any traction in the deck for this? specifically i'm thinking against eldrazi.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Is there any part of this that seems bad or doesn't fit?
I feel like eldrazi is a matchup I'm weak on, as well as tron.
My maindeck is "stock". 1 abrupt decay, 3 push, 2 temur, 1 ghor-clan.
Is it correct to just run terminate, path or something? I feel like we need a big "gotcha" spell for creatures such as drowner, smasher, wurmcoil, tasigur, angler, etc.
What do we think of oblivion ring? Seems.... Decent?
Played 3 test matches and went 2-1 but each game was a struggle. Not sure I sideboarded right, either.
-1 liliana of the veil
-3 fatal push
-1 something (can't actually remember)
+1 ghost quarter
+2 surgical extraction
+1 maelstrom pulse
+1 ranger of eos
Didn't bring in souls or fulminator. Considered it too slow or vulnerable to graveyard hate. Wondering if, instead of liliana I should have taken out an inquisition of kozilek
Any advice on what to take out or bring in? Toughest part of the matchup is engineered explosives by far. Everything else I can seem to deal with.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Rec Sage isnt a tutorable answer for RIP. Also Golgari Charm is pretty clutch in some matchups
Good catch. No delirium if RIP is on the field.
I'm open to golgari charm. Seems quite good actually. Several of the best cards against this deck are enchantments (leyline, worship, blood moon, rest in peace) Isn't maelstrom pulse better? Hard to know I guess, but it has further-reaching uses.
Being instant is good I suppose. Decent against Affinity too I'm guessing.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
My problem with scooze in this deck is the low mana count. He wants lots of green to be good and we only usually run 3 sources and often only see 1.
Point taken. I'd still rather have a tutorable card for GY hate. What about Yixlid Jailer ?
Ideally we need one-sided graveyard hate in this deck. That limits us somewhat.
Loaming shaman seems OK, but flawed.
Faerie macabre is probably one of the better options.
Bojuka bog is great.
Ultimately I think surgical extraction is multi-purpose enough that it's the best card for the job, even though it's nof tutorable
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
I'm glad that primer is on it's way as I just decided to play a deck. I'm BGx player mostly playing Jund and Junk but feel this is just better now.
It's not necessarily better, but it has some worthwhile upside at the moment. Enough upside that I bought into the remaining pieces I needed (baubles and a couple of lands) and have been testing it myself.
I really like the tutor ability that the deck has. It makes it compelling in the way that Kiki-chord is compelling. It's not a silver-bullet kind of deck but it has some sequencing similarities which appeal to me.
Plus... Death's shadow has been a pet card of mine for years. Finally good to see it doing something useful in a fair deck, of all places haha
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Try to play every game 1 like it's against your worst matchup or something. If you're in game 2 and you know it's a slow grixis deck, those sorts of hands can be keepable I guess. (I say this because last week I won my first ever fnm game in which I kept a no-land hand. I told my opponent as we started game 2 and we joked about it after I won).
Are people upping the battle rage count to 2? Seems OK I guess.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Isn't Ghor-Clan Rampager mostly better than Temur Battle Rage as it can be tutored for with Traverse the Ulvenwald or be cast as a creature in the late game instead of rotting in your hand ?
Why not go with 3x GcR and 0x TBR over the usual 1/2 split ?
if you've made the decision to run battle rage (i think it's worth it right now), you probably want to have the real, full-fat temur battle rage because it grants double strike, rather than just +4/+4. it's a better card, but having 1 of them tutorable and weaker (rampager) is worth it.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Was doing relatively well on mtgo so was surprised to go 0-2 and dropping.
Faced Grixis Control and Then Storm Gifts.
I think cutting the white is a mistake, I was playing on mtgo last night without the white and it just felt more difficult. Also, it literally feels like MTGO is playing janky stuff to combat, I ran into 3 token decks last night.
I've been playing the 2x Lilliana, the Last Hope in the main, and I think it's a huge mistake. It has so many matchups it's just worthless in. LOTV never feels bad unless you're facing a creature swarm deck. She is a fantastic sideboard in the deck though
I played Affinity last night on mtgo, they had a nut hand and left me at 1 life, and winning with a 22/22 trampler
The more I'm playing, the more I think 2x Temur Battle Rage is a good idea, mainly against less interactive decks. It's definitely a backup combo package I've seen play out well thus far.
I've tried tweaking the decks a lot, so far Sam Black's GP list gave me the best results, but I haven't played his list in a bit, I'm going to be trying it again, minus the Rallier.
I noticed a lot of lists cutting down to 1x Temur, but I think having it for combo or people gumming up the board may be a mistake.
your feelings are pretty much where I'm at as well.. liliana of the veil seems like the best maindeck option, with extra white cards (and new liliana) coming in for grindy matchups.
i'm currently on the 1 battle rage and 1 rampager maindeck split. I feel like that's right because I want to have 1 maindeck abrupt decay (it solves a lot of issues against a variety of decks).
I feel like we've nailed down quite a few choices to something optimal at this point, although i'm still debating 1 maindeck card:
the 3rd kolaghan's command, or 1x collective brutality. I'm tempted to shift the brutality to the board entirely, but it's so good against burn... k-command might just be the better option but it's very unclear whether the 3rd one is better than the 1st brutality. it's so hard to quantify the value of the third of a support card haha
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
My 0.2c is that, much like jund/abzan/sultai/grixis already exist as separate entities, we should keep threads separate and have this as the shadow jund thread.
Having seen grixis and BUG shadow lists, they are similar in style to delver tempo lists. This isn't the same thing (but it is cool)
In terms of white splash, it's been 100% worth it so far in terms of sideboard strategy, but I wouldn't run any white cards in the maindeck.
A big question for me so far has been about the maindeck spells. I'm keeping 1x abrupt decay but here are the rest:
are you sure about these? where are you getting this from?
I've anecdotally found Tron and Bant Eldrazi to be very bad, as well as Lantern Control
also, i've found zoo to be generally OK, as our maindeck pushes and tarfires have all the targets =).
meanwhile, i'm fairly certain that regular "normal" jund is favoured against us, because they pack so much more removal, have ways to close out the game once it gets to topdecking, and they have card advantage which we don't.
so yeah - where did you get this information? the 45/55 comment doesn't seem to ring true either.... i'm just not sure where you're coming from here. like, sure, any opponent can stumble and be hit by a timely thoughtseize, regardless of deck. that's them getting "junded out", but over 100 games, or 1000 games, it all averages out. you can't say we don't have bad matchups because of your own experiences, if that's where it's coming from.
Round 1 grixis control. Loss
Win first game easily.
Second game, was forced to keep a hand with no discard but a couple of threats. Got myself into a good spot but a ripped damnation off the top crushed me.
Third game, made a misplay (this is the story of the day, really) and threw away a death's shadow by making an incorrect attack.
1-2
Round 2 Zoo, win
Won two quick games with a couple of fatal pushes, a tarfire and a threat. Nothing really to say here...
Round 3 grixis delver, win
Again 2 quick games. A discard spell followed by a fatal push was enough to let a single goyf go the distance in both games. It's simple "jund 'em out".
Round 4 death & taxes, win
Two quick games. A deck full if tarfire and fatal push makes this relatively easy. I could have won with a 2/2 zombie in these games, it was straightforward.
At this point I'm 3-1 and a win in my next round secures me for top8 (if I draw in the final round).
Round 5 tron, loss
Game 1, turn 1 thoughtseize away an o-stone and see not much going on besides 2 tron lands. Get on the beatdown but opponent gets natural tron into Ugin to just crush me instantly. Feels bad.
Game 2 (get this!) opening hand of 2x fulminator mage, 1x surgical extraction, 3 lands and a bauble. Decide that this is enough on the play, with a couple of draws, to get going. Opponent plays turn 1 relic of progenitus with a tower. I durdle. Opponent plays a SECOND tower (this is where it started to fall apart) and passes. Turn 3 I play my first fulminator but don't have a decent target so leave it on the battlefield. He plays sanctum of Ugin & fetches a mine off a map. Still no decent targets & he's leaving 1 mana up for relic to counter my surgical extraction. I finally draw a goyf but decide to play out my second fulminator. My misplay here is that I decided to sac both fulminators and remove both towers, to set him back two land drops and keep him completely off tron. Meanwhile I've got a useless traverse, a 0/1 goyf and no real pressure. My opponent has Ugin and Karn in hand. My opponent ruthlessly (and correctly) kept 1 mana up for his relic the whole time, so I had no chance to extract his towers. When he started exiling his own towers from his yard, I saw the writing on the wall. He naturally drew the remaining tron lands off the top, including his final tower(!!!) after I ghost quartered his third one. He drew everything he needed card after card. I meanwhile drew the goyf half of my deck and a maelstrom pulse, which didn't really do anything. Goyfs were never bigger than 1/2s the whole game. Looking back I recognise that there were three critical misplays I made during the game. 1 was going for the towers and not waiting for him to play his second tron piece. 2 was not traversing for a death's shadow and instead choosing to get a ghost quarter. 3 was not playing the goyf earlier; it might have forced him to crack his relic. I believe I had the tools to win this second game but fluffed it up.
At this point I was out of top8 contention and felt kind of salty, and proceeded to misplay my way out of the 6th round as well, against dredge.
So I went from being in a win&in to finishing 3-3 overall which is pretty bad.
One thing I learnt; this deck is REALLY HARD to play optimally. Maybe the hardest I've played ever (harder than normal jund). There are so many subtle choices that mean big consequences later in the game. My main opponent was misplays.
Another thing I learnt; when the deck wins, it just "junds 'em out". The deck isn't explicitly broken, it just plays discard into a threat and gets there. Often, the threat could be literally anything, but sometimes the size of your threats makes a difference.
Another thing I learnt; boarded in lingering souls a bunch of times and most of the time it just felt like having blockers & delaying the inevitable. Going to try straight jund from now on.
Final thought; the deck needs more graveyard hate (spellbomb) and some way to remove 5-toughness creatures (terminate or dismember)
Felt like I didn't do the deck justice, honestly. Haven't felt that way for a while so I need lots more practice. Get that muscle memory and instinct going because at the moment I'm having to over-think everything.
necessary? I've started running 2 without any testing, due to another list running them. I feel like they are decent enough, but it raises the question - what is it for? I guess the obvious answer is dredge... but beyond that, are we just ok running spot removal? I like being able to 2-for-1 merfolk, zoo and the like. that's awesome. but do we *need* to be able to do this, or should I run a reclamation sage/collective brutality/something else in their place?
finally - Worship. any traction in the deck for this? specifically i'm thinking against eldrazi.
Here's my sideboard:
1x ancient grudge
1x liliana, the last hope
1x ranger of eos
2x surgical extraction
2x fulminator mage
1x ghost quarter
3x lingering souls
1x ethersworn canonist
1x reclamation sage
1x collective brutality
Is there any part of this that seems bad or doesn't fit?
I feel like eldrazi is a matchup I'm weak on, as well as tron.
My maindeck is "stock". 1 abrupt decay, 3 push, 2 temur, 1 ghor-clan.
Is it correct to just run terminate, path or something? I feel like we need a big "gotcha" spell for creatures such as drowner, smasher, wurmcoil, tasigur, angler, etc.
What do we think of oblivion ring? Seems.... Decent?
Or shriekmaw?
Played 3 test matches and went 2-1 but each game was a struggle. Not sure I sideboarded right, either.
-1 liliana of the veil
-3 fatal push
-1 something (can't actually remember)
+1 ghost quarter
+2 surgical extraction
+1 maelstrom pulse
+1 ranger of eos
Didn't bring in souls or fulminator. Considered it too slow or vulnerable to graveyard hate. Wondering if, instead of liliana I should have taken out an inquisition of kozilek
Any advice on what to take out or bring in? Toughest part of the matchup is engineered explosives by far. Everything else I can seem to deal with.
Good catch. No delirium if RIP is on the field.
I'm open to golgari charm. Seems quite good actually. Several of the best cards against this deck are enchantments (leyline, worship, blood moon, rest in peace) Isn't maelstrom pulse better? Hard to know I guess, but it has further-reaching uses.
Being instant is good I suppose. Decent against Affinity too I'm guessing.
Ideally we need one-sided graveyard hate in this deck. That limits us somewhat.
Loaming shaman seems OK, but flawed.
Faerie macabre is probably one of the better options.
Bojuka bog is great.
Ultimately I think surgical extraction is multi-purpose enough that it's the best card for the job, even though it's nof tutorable
It's not necessarily better, but it has some worthwhile upside at the moment. Enough upside that I bought into the remaining pieces I needed (baubles and a couple of lands) and have been testing it myself.
I really like the tutor ability that the deck has. It makes it compelling in the way that Kiki-chord is compelling. It's not a silver-bullet kind of deck but it has some sequencing similarities which appeal to me.
Plus... Death's shadow has been a pet card of mine for years. Finally good to see it doing something useful in a fair deck, of all places haha
Are people upping the battle rage count to 2? Seems OK I guess.
if you've made the decision to run battle rage (i think it's worth it right now), you probably want to have the real, full-fat temur battle rage because it grants double strike, rather than just +4/+4. it's a better card, but having 1 of them tutorable and weaker (rampager) is worth it.
your feelings are pretty much where I'm at as well.. liliana of the veil seems like the best maindeck option, with extra white cards (and new liliana) coming in for grindy matchups.
i'm currently on the 1 battle rage and 1 rampager maindeck split. I feel like that's right because I want to have 1 maindeck abrupt decay (it solves a lot of issues against a variety of decks).
I feel like we've nailed down quite a few choices to something optimal at this point, although i'm still debating 1 maindeck card:
the 3rd kolaghan's command, or 1x collective brutality. I'm tempted to shift the brutality to the board entirely, but it's so good against burn... k-command might just be the better option but it's very unclear whether the 3rd one is better than the 1st brutality. it's so hard to quantify the value of the third of a support card haha
My 0.2c is that, much like jund/abzan/sultai/grixis already exist as separate entities, we should keep threads separate and have this as the shadow jund thread.
Having seen grixis and BUG shadow lists, they are similar in style to delver tempo lists. This isn't the same thing (but it is cool)
In terms of white splash, it's been 100% worth it so far in terms of sideboard strategy, but I wouldn't run any white cards in the maindeck.
A big question for me so far has been about the maindeck spells. I'm keeping 1x abrupt decay but here are the rest:
3x fatal push
1x collective brutality
2x kolaghan's command
Or
4x fatal push
2x kolaghan's command
Or
3x fatal push
3x kolaghan's command
I'm running 1 brutality in the side, but felt like 1 main was OK. Unsure as to the best configuration.