Guess I'm thinking because the last few top 32 lists and the ones streamers have been playing, that most people have dropped the white. I'm running pulse and terminate in the sb.
Can I see your sb list? I can't find room for terminate but I've always run a pulse in the side.
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Our dudes get bigger than angler and Tasi and I think most people are playing hard removal in the sb.
what hard removal are people running? i'm not running any - is this wrong according to current wisdom? i realise new decks tend to evolve pretty rapidly once they are "discovered" by the community at large.
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Ok, so I haven't had time to test it yet, but I'm considering 1 architect of will in the mb. Not 100% on what I would drop, but it would give us a 5th cantrip critter and artifact for delirium/goyf
My gut feeling is that this won't be worth it. Test it out, of course.
It'll make all your midrange matchups worse, due to filling your deck with "do-nothing" synergy stuff.
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Sounds fair. I can bring 2x grudge and 1x pulse out of the board, and have 1 decay and 2 kommand maindeck.
What about tron? I realise that we can get lucky of course but if they have anything approaching a decent hand, it has felt pretty helpless against them.
This is where you make a SB adjustment of +1 Ghost Quarter over 1 Fulminator Mage. It comes down faster, buying you a turn. Also side in the surgical extractions, it works wonders when you extract a land!
only works if they don't have a relic of progenitus on the field and if they've only got singular lands in play, but yes, it can be good.
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Sounds fair. I can bring 2x grudge and 1x pulse out of the board, and have 1 decay and 2 kommand maindeck.
What about tron? I realise that we can get lucky of course but if they have anything approaching a decent hand, it has felt pretty helpless against them.
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Well, dredge is a poor matchup for us, and the deck still exists. Plenty of other decks use the graveyard, and having an instant speed response is important. Abzan company, the mirror, reanimator, gifts,
I'm currently going to test 2 surgical and 1 something else (Crypt or spellbomb or grafdiggers cage)
Dredge still exists, true, but honestly I wouldn't expect it that much right now.
While I shared your opinion for a while, I've seen the deck top-8 a couple of larger events recently, and at a 60-person event last week, a dredge player was going deep in the late rounds and I faced them in round six.
In a couple of weeks at the same venue, there's going to be an SCG event and it'll probably draw 100+ players. I'd expect dredge to show up there as well.
More than anything though I'm worried about lantern and tron. I'm seeing lots of both of these decks in my area and they both top-8-ed recent local events.
Best strategy to beat both lantern and tron? I'm guessing with lantern you hope to discard and then extract their important pieces like bridges, and just attack every turn. I'm also guessing the Kataki in the white splash version is insane in that matchup (but I'm trying the straight jund version for a bit at the moment)
As for tron, seems hard. I've lost every match against tron in my testing, and tron defeated me in my top8 win&in as well. Fulminator is good obviously, but they have so much filtering and land tutoring that any roadblock hasn't mattered, and my opponents just find Ugin on top. Boom, game over.
Help me beat these two matchups please :S
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As for GY hate, I still prefer Surgical at the moment. The thing is, do we need this stronger GY hate than surgical? Which are the decks we are targeting this against, and do we need this against them as the matchup is qutie bad or something?
Well, dredge is a poor matchup for us, and the deck still exists. Plenty of other decks use the graveyard, and having an instant speed response is important. Abzan company, the mirror, reanimator, gifts,
I'm currently going to test 2 surgical and 1 something else (Crypt or spellbomb or grafdiggers cage)
It's possible that the third card could be a second anger of the gods. Hates on dredge and also has decent value elsewhere. 2 surgical could be good enough for everything else? The mirror seems tough & without lingering souls I feel like I'd want something to break the symmetry and switch off delirium for my opponent. Spellbomb seems the best here as it also draws a card in those grindy games.
Take it from someone who have tried both in other decks.
Replacing itself is a HUGE deal in most cases and it lets you bring it in against decks where it is good, but not backbreaking - Tormod's need to be REALLY good to bring in as it's a 1 time effect and costs a card.
I get that, but were those other decks as fast or operating on so few lands as this deck?
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I actually kind of like it more than spellbomb. It can be played alongside first turn discard against decks where you need it. Being free is a big deal. Also gets you delirium without costing mana. I really think in this deck it could be better.
I really like the idea of Tormod's Crypt in the sideboard as an Idea for graveyard hate that does not effect us, while helping Delirium and Tarmogoyf fuel.
Yeah I bought a foil spellbomb yesterday, but saw the Crypt in my "random modern cards box" and instantly regretted buying the spellbomb haha. Costing 0 like bauble is tech for speed and quick delirium, while hosing the decks that need hosing.
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I actually kind of like it more than spellbomb. It can be played alongside first turn discard against decks where you need it. Being free is a big deal. Also gets you delirium without costing mana. I really think in this deck it could be better.
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my current 75 is almost identical to yours, except for 1 maindeck spell and a couple of sideboard differences:
main:
i'm running a dismember. in order to do this, i dropped down to 2 tarfire. I am considering bringing the tarfire back though, and running dismember over the second temur BR. undecided. the folks on here seem to be dead certain that battle rage is the real deal, but after something like 40 games, and still never having had the opportunity to use the spell, I have my doubts. I haven't had any of the pieces line up as it did for josh utter-leyton or sam black on coverage, where they can just steal games with it.
the rest of the maindeck is identical (oh, except i'm running 2x overgrown tomb, and you're running 2x crypt...)
side:
i'm only running 1x lili in the side, and 2x brutality. this allows me to run 2x nihil spellbomb in there for tricky matchups like dredge. the rest of the sideboard is identical.
if you've not faced eldrazi, you've got great luck. the deck is difficult and with no actual removal besides pulse and (if you're lucky) liliana of the veil, it's extremely hard to beat. Drowner of Hope is as good as game if it hits the battlefield, and reality smasher makes combat maths insanely difficult when we operate at such a low life total.
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The closest I've got is something like having an 8/8 shadow and be able to crunch through a blocker to take my opponent to 6 or something, but then I would die on the crack-back, so I can't profitably attack.
Just like you said, you simply can't attack in that case, that has nothing to do with Temur Battle Rage. These are situations where you just need to make the correct decision and not attack. Also, in this case it would still be a 2 mana deal 8 dmg, you think that is too bad to play?
Against an empty board, sure, it's a better bolt. Unfortunately there are issues with this.
1) if you do this into open mana you open yourself up for a 2-for-1 if they have a fatal push or something. Infect wouldn't play gung-ho into removal like this, why should we?
2) if your opponent has creatures and you are at a low enough life total to have a decent sized death's shadow, and temur isn't lethal, then it's a completely dead card in your hand & would be much better as a terminate or something.
3) if your opponent is playing eldrazi and has reality smasher, it's not OK to just swing wildly and blow a temur battle rage as a pseudo-bolt, especially when you're at a low life total.
Honestly I haven't had a single opportunity to swing for lethal with battle rage over 13 rounds of tournament matches against a wide variety of opponents. Add to that just testing with friends (again, the opportunity hasn't come up) and I've had numerous occasions where temur battle rage has just been a dead card in my hand and I would rather have had another piece of removal like terminate, or collective brutality, or who knows anything else lol.
I was always running 1 ravager, but will drop down to 1 battle rage.
Genuinely I've been drawing the battle rage and in three tournaments I haven't had a good opportunity to cast it, not even once.
The closest I've got is something like having an 8/8 shadow and be able to crunch through a blocker to take my opponent to 6 or something, but then I would die on the crack-back, so I can't profitably attack. I haven't yet had a single situation where battle rage has allowed me to sneak in for lethal and surprise my opponent. At best, it's just been a slightly-above-par lightning bolt, but then it leaves me with no surprise factor. And most likely an empty hand.
Moreover, quite a few people I've played against haven't realised the deck runs battle rage, so they are effectively immune to the mind-games and don't bother to play around it. This actually makes them better against the card, and is a real problem.
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Just had a thought for the pure jund list. Considering Pia and Kiran for the sb. It gives a bit of reach and the power to race in the grindy matches too.
If we're considering 4-drops we also have to consider the other ones as well, right?
Huntmaster & kalitas
I'm going to test with a pure jund list this week. I feel like losing ranger of eos is a bit of a pain (card is insane) but lingering souls has been mixed for me. It was either brilliant (against jund/mirror/death&taxes) or just mediocre (everything else). Being good in 3 matchups is maybe not where we want to be, but I could be wrong.
I'm dropping back down to 1 battle rage and 1 rampager. I just found that until you can get lethal with battle rage, it does nothing & is a dead card. You get those situations where if your opponent blocks you can blow them out, but they can probably just take the damage so don't block and then you die on the crack-back. It's a good card, no doubt, but I really don't want two in the deck.
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Can I see your sb list? I can't find room for terminate but I've always run a pulse in the side.
what hard removal are people running? i'm not running any - is this wrong according to current wisdom? i realise new decks tend to evolve pretty rapidly once they are "discovered" by the community at large.
My gut feeling is that this won't be worth it. Test it out, of course.
It'll make all your midrange matchups worse, due to filling your deck with "do-nothing" synergy stuff.
only works if they don't have a relic of progenitus on the field and if they've only got singular lands in play, but yes, it can be good.
What about tron? I realise that we can get lucky of course but if they have anything approaching a decent hand, it has felt pretty helpless against them.
While I shared your opinion for a while, I've seen the deck top-8 a couple of larger events recently, and at a 60-person event last week, a dredge player was going deep in the late rounds and I faced them in round six.
In a couple of weeks at the same venue, there's going to be an SCG event and it'll probably draw 100+ players. I'd expect dredge to show up there as well.
More than anything though I'm worried about lantern and tron. I'm seeing lots of both of these decks in my area and they both top-8-ed recent local events.
Best strategy to beat both lantern and tron? I'm guessing with lantern you hope to discard and then extract their important pieces like bridges, and just attack every turn. I'm also guessing the Kataki in the white splash version is insane in that matchup (but I'm trying the straight jund version for a bit at the moment)
As for tron, seems hard. I've lost every match against tron in my testing, and tron defeated me in my top8 win&in as well. Fulminator is good obviously, but they have so much filtering and land tutoring that any roadblock hasn't mattered, and my opponents just find Ugin on top. Boom, game over.
Help me beat these two matchups please :S
Well, dredge is a poor matchup for us, and the deck still exists. Plenty of other decks use the graveyard, and having an instant speed response is important. Abzan company, the mirror, reanimator, gifts,
I'm currently going to test 2 surgical and 1 something else (Crypt or spellbomb or grafdiggers cage)
It's possible that the third card could be a second anger of the gods. Hates on dredge and also has decent value elsewhere. 2 surgical could be good enough for everything else? The mirror seems tough & without lingering souls I feel like I'd want something to break the symmetry and switch off delirium for my opponent. Spellbomb seems the best here as it also draws a card in those grindy games.
I get that, but were those other decks as fast or operating on so few lands as this deck?
Yeah I bought a foil spellbomb yesterday, but saw the Crypt in my "random modern cards box" and instantly regretted buying the spellbomb haha. Costing 0 like bauble is tech for speed and quick delirium, while hosing the decks that need hosing.
I actually kind of like it more than spellbomb. It can be played alongside first turn discard against decks where you need it. Being free is a big deal. Also gets you delirium without costing mana. I really think in this deck it could be better.
main:
i'm running a dismember. in order to do this, i dropped down to 2 tarfire. I am considering bringing the tarfire back though, and running dismember over the second temur BR. undecided. the folks on here seem to be dead certain that battle rage is the real deal, but after something like 40 games, and still never having had the opportunity to use the spell, I have my doubts. I haven't had any of the pieces line up as it did for josh utter-leyton or sam black on coverage, where they can just steal games with it.
the rest of the maindeck is identical (oh, except i'm running 2x overgrown tomb, and you're running 2x crypt...)
side:
i'm only running 1x lili in the side, and 2x brutality. this allows me to run 2x nihil spellbomb in there for tricky matchups like dredge. the rest of the sideboard is identical.
if you've not faced eldrazi, you've got great luck. the deck is difficult and with no actual removal besides pulse and (if you're lucky) liliana of the veil, it's extremely hard to beat. Drowner of Hope is as good as game if it hits the battlefield, and reality smasher makes combat maths insanely difficult when we operate at such a low life total.
Against an empty board, sure, it's a better bolt. Unfortunately there are issues with this.
1) if you do this into open mana you open yourself up for a 2-for-1 if they have a fatal push or something. Infect wouldn't play gung-ho into removal like this, why should we?
2) if your opponent has creatures and you are at a low enough life total to have a decent sized death's shadow, and temur isn't lethal, then it's a completely dead card in your hand & would be much better as a terminate or something.
3) if your opponent is playing eldrazi and has reality smasher, it's not OK to just swing wildly and blow a temur battle rage as a pseudo-bolt, especially when you're at a low life total.
Honestly I haven't had a single opportunity to swing for lethal with battle rage over 13 rounds of tournament matches against a wide variety of opponents. Add to that just testing with friends (again, the opportunity hasn't come up) and I've had numerous occasions where temur battle rage has just been a dead card in my hand and I would rather have had another piece of removal like terminate, or collective brutality, or who knows anything else lol.
Genuinely I've been drawing the battle rage and in three tournaments I haven't had a good opportunity to cast it, not even once.
The closest I've got is something like having an 8/8 shadow and be able to crunch through a blocker to take my opponent to 6 or something, but then I would die on the crack-back, so I can't profitably attack. I haven't yet had a single situation where battle rage has allowed me to sneak in for lethal and surprise my opponent. At best, it's just been a slightly-above-par lightning bolt, but then it leaves me with no surprise factor. And most likely an empty hand.
Moreover, quite a few people I've played against haven't realised the deck runs battle rage, so they are effectively immune to the mind-games and don't bother to play around it. This actually makes them better against the card, and is a real problem.
If we're considering 4-drops we also have to consider the other ones as well, right?
Huntmaster & kalitas
I'm going to test with a pure jund list this week. I feel like losing ranger of eos is a bit of a pain (card is insane) but lingering souls has been mixed for me. It was either brilliant (against jund/mirror/death&taxes) or just mediocre (everything else). Being good in 3 matchups is maybe not where we want to be, but I could be wrong.
I'm dropping back down to 1 battle rage and 1 rampager. I just found that until you can get lethal with battle rage, it does nothing & is a dead card. You get those situations where if your opponent blocks you can blow them out, but they can probably just take the damage so don't block and then you die on the crack-back. It's a good card, no doubt, but I really don't want two in the deck.