I think the list last page with BBE is on the right track, probably because it closely mirrors what Ive seen online out of the RUG decks.
Personally Quellers are a love/hate thing. Great when you are ahead, but they just make me sad when I'm trying to come from behind. GoST on the other hand, can be a beast at any point, especially with 4-6 Exalted boosters in the deck. I beat Tron last night on the back of game 1 Turn 2 GoST, and game 2, turn 3 Combo.
Near god hands sure, but you need to have cards to apply that pressure, and BBE on top? The value and pressure can get out of hand very fast.
I'm relatively new to the deck, hope you don't mind me asking for advice (or tell me and I'll delete this post!).
The meta that I play in have an overwhelming degree of interactive decks with a stint of aggro and combo.
Something to the effect of
50% Jund / UWx control
20% Lantern (2-3 players)
30% Aggro / Combo (Affinity, burn and storm)
What creature selection would you make with this kind of meta? I'm thinking Reflector Mage does little here, whereas cards like Spell Queller and Selfless Spirit are more valuable? Utility creatures I'm considering are 2nd Qasali Pridemage and more Ewits for recursion.
I think the basic creatures you see in most lists are going to be correct here. 2 Pridemage, 2 GoST has been serving me pretty good, and I have 2 Selfless Spirits right now as well.
As to the MTGO list, I think BBE is going to prove to be a better value engine, if not going for Combo, it seems in my testing against it (I havent tried it) to just bury people.
Probably my favorite thing about this configuration is I've been able to consistently win through the combo by quite a larger margin than with CoCo or Jace being the curve topper. I've probably had more turn three or four wins the last couple days than I've had the previous month--Dork into Knight into BBE cascading into Retreat is very much real. It's faster, more proactive, and more consistent with the combo which I feel is a better place to be in the meta. Knightfall is a deck that likes to fight on the ground and have high-value cards, BBE is imo a better enabler. Also, Lightning Bolt is a good card.
Your doing an all in version, and thats fine. A lot of the other concepts being pushed are not All in on the Combo aspect, and that doesnt mean this is Twin like, I play Twin, and this is nothing like Twin.
If you find success, then good on you. :]
I actually want to fit this into Wug Emeria Titan...
Twin on Snaps is awesome, I've been able to grind out wins on the back of that several times over the last couple weekends.
Either way, I think thats my issue. Retreat is really good, to the point of warping the 'I turn my creature sides' deck into something that is better, but not what I want out of it, which is mostly...a Teir 2 deck where I'm not smashing folks on T3 from 20 to 0. :]
Adding 1 Island, 1 Hallowed Fountain is minimal investment to the mana base and we have mana dorks where a hierarch is hardly bad. I guess I just think it gives that instant win potential, and it feels off to me.
Also Geist is easy to get in, heck you could put the combo in Counter cat if you wanted.
Edit: maybe that's the issue, it isn't about synergy, it's just + Retreat and the power level shifts hard?
You want to run Retreat which is a 3 drop and not a powerhouse on it's own. You want to run Knight which is a 3 drop. You're talking Geist? You're talking a lot of 3 drops. A lot of 3 drops is midrange, not aggro. You could build an aggressive Bant deck around that but it wouldn't be a Zoo. If you're just splashing Blue into a Red/Green deck you need to ask yourself why not drop the Knight and run Deceiver Exarch and Splinter Twin as well.
I think I've seen idSurge in the Zoo thread; the typical Retreat Zoo list is Naya Splash Blue. It's Medium Zoo that's relatively similar to current Naya Collected Company Zoo builds.
Yeah it very easily just slots in to my big zoo (or even just a rush zoo its not hard), and changes up the dynamic. Its not a terrible thing, its just a change to how the deck plays and warps it in a way that feels like not so much what I 'signed up for' if that makes sense. :]
I run twin, it's the main deck I play in mtgo and the only one I have in paper.
I agree, retreat by itself isn't strong, I guess the power level just isn't what I am used to in either 1 drop or Big zoo, so it feels like quite a jump from a more fair/casual whatever you want to call it to a potential teir one list that can very much pull a win off a top deck. Which is fine, just not the same power level at all that it was before.
Adding 1 Island, 1 Hallowed Fountain is minimal investment to the mana base and we have mana dorks where a hierarch is hardly bad. I guess I just think it gives that instant win potential, and it feels off to me.
Also Geist is easy to get in, heck you could put the combo in Counter cat if you wanted.
Edit: maybe that's the issue, it isn't about synergy, it's just + Retreat and the power level shifts hard?
So some rambling here so please bear with me but is Retreat good for the aggro archetype to have access to?
I like zoo builds I like to jam some creatures for explosive turn 2 attacks. Against Tier decks, this often ends up in a few ways.
1 you face a slow deck or draw and rush them finish with burn.
2 you face a sweeper/removal heavy deck, and cannot keep pressure, with no real CA, you lose the long game. Collected Company fixed this a bit.
3 you face down a synergy aggro (ally or slivers) and get buried under cumulative advantage that our dumb beats look...dumb beside.
4 our interaction isn't high so we have to just take it against combo sometimes.
I think everyone will admit that zoo type builds are teir 2 at best but I see this combo as something of a cheap out maybe? Like, I don't know what I am trying to articulate but I felt bad I guess that my 'dumb kids deck' could do something I am very used to seeing and doing with my Twin. I don't know but it feels pretty strong, and I wouldn't be shocked to see Zoo go to teir 1 with this.
Personally Quellers are a love/hate thing. Great when you are ahead, but they just make me sad when I'm trying to come from behind. GoST on the other hand, can be a beast at any point, especially with 4-6 Exalted boosters in the deck. I beat Tron last night on the back of game 1 Turn 2 GoST, and game 2, turn 3 Combo.
Near god hands sure, but you need to have cards to apply that pressure, and BBE on top? The value and pressure can get out of hand very fast.
Spirits
I think the basic creatures you see in most lists are going to be correct here. 2 Pridemage, 2 GoST has been serving me pretty good, and I have 2 Selfless Spirits right now as well.
As to the MTGO list, I think BBE is going to prove to be a better value engine, if not going for Combo, it seems in my testing against it (I havent tried it) to just bury people.
Spirits
I like this a lot.
Spirits
If you find success, then good on you. :]
I actually want to fit this into Wug Emeria Titan...
Spirits
Maty what are you settled on right now as a list? I must have missed it.
Spirits
Either way, I think thats my issue. Retreat is really good, to the point of warping the 'I turn my creature sides' deck into something that is better, but not what I want out of it, which is mostly...a Teir 2 deck where I'm not smashing folks on T3 from 20 to 0. :]
Spirits
Yeah it very easily just slots in to my big zoo (or even just a rush zoo its not hard), and changes up the dynamic. Its not a terrible thing, its just a change to how the deck plays and warps it in a way that feels like not so much what I 'signed up for' if that makes sense. :]
Spirits
I agree, retreat by itself isn't strong, I guess the power level just isn't what I am used to in either 1 drop or Big zoo, so it feels like quite a jump from a more fair/casual whatever you want to call it to a potential teir one list that can very much pull a win off a top deck. Which is fine, just not the same power level at all that it was before.
Spirits
Also Geist is easy to get in, heck you could put the combo in Counter cat if you wanted.
Edit: maybe that's the issue, it isn't about synergy, it's just + Retreat and the power level shifts hard?
Spirits
I like zoo builds I like to jam some creatures for explosive turn 2 attacks. Against Tier decks, this often ends up in a few ways.
1 you face a slow deck or draw and rush them finish with burn.
2 you face a sweeper/removal heavy deck, and cannot keep pressure, with no real CA, you lose the long game. Collected Company fixed this a bit.
3 you face down a synergy aggro (ally or slivers) and get buried under cumulative advantage that our dumb beats look...dumb beside.
4 our interaction isn't high so we have to just take it against combo sometimes.
I think everyone will admit that zoo type builds are teir 2 at best but I see this combo as something of a cheap out maybe? Like, I don't know what I am trying to articulate but I felt bad I guess that my 'dumb kids deck' could do something I am very used to seeing and doing with my Twin. I don't know but it feels pretty strong, and I wouldn't be shocked to see Zoo go to teir 1 with this.
Spirits
1. Forest -> Hierarch
2. Temple Garden -> Knight
3. Retreat -> Combo kill.
I felt bad.
Spirits
Spirits
I'm back on my Grixis (URb really) Twin, but once I get the rest of this in paper or tomorrow i guess on MTGO?? I'll be rocking it.
Spirits
Spirits
Spirits