I own Ad Nauseam. Game 2 majority of deck will go for the Lab Maniac win from the board when faced with multiple Halo/leylines/suppresion fields[ which hits the activated ability of L.S.), and 1-2 echoing truth (list dependent). If they get Milled, Nevermored or countered (N.B. negate won't cut it v Maniac) then Leyline will be enough.
Really sorry to miss this comment. L.S stood for lightning storm in ad nauseam, which has an activated ability hit by suppression field.
On another note I am experimenting with the zur's lock from the board vs tron, its very slow process in terms testing and, indeed, in casting at t4, but with a critical mass of counters in the deck to stop stuff happening t3 it works well- trouble is I can't find room for that many counters in the main and side.
I own Ad Nauseam. Game 2 majority of deck will go for the Lab Maniac win from the board when faced with multiple Halo/leylines/suppresion fields[ which hits the activated ability of L.S.), and 1-2 echoing truth (list dependent). If they get Milled, Nevermored or countered (N.B. negate won't cut it v Maniac) then Leyline will be enough.
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Its not perfect, absolutely. You would need to board in 5/6 counters (as well as, say, 3 Weirdings) to stop the t3 Karn plays. Its not perfect, and requires you to have counters as many counters in hand as they have removal/threat cards at the time you cast weirding.
I don't know how well it would work, I do know I have never seen a deck lock Tron out forever with just non critter permanents in any prison deck-they always win the war, especially if they diversify to run all is dust singletons in addition to the uginx2 , o stone x3-4, 2 ulamog's and inevitable 3 nature's claim. I have seen them been locked out for a while and then died to an enormous combo play, and I have seen them been locked out forever when some landkill has come in or is present naturally, but a combination of needles, stony silence, orings, suppression fields, nevermore and rule of law/eidolon effects I have never seen cut it in a variety of decks laden with them. All they need is one piece of removal that has not been Nevermored or Needled and suddenly the Needle or Stony bites it and they start blowing stuff up. Now that Ulamog's cast trigger is about I have even seen one wriggle out of an Enduring ideal deck where there was a resolved Enduring ideal fetching Dovescape with a Stony Silence and friends down. The damn deck has just so much inevitability and so much removal. It is such a shame because otherwise Turbo Fog is really well-placed as a prison-ish deck that has a lovely customisable and consistent mix of permanents and spell power. Shame they did not nerf tron more......)
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Yes, that was my point really. You carry enough counters to keep one or two things off. So after that you need a mechanism of keeping their limited number of danger (removal) cards down, as that is one deck where fogs are poor and can be boarded out in some number.
I know from pillow fort and other lockdown decks that locking Tron out with just permanents is hard- needles, stony, rule of laws and nevermores are only one kill card away from them being at full capacity again, hence my suggestion of Zur's Weirding which is one of the few that work and protect themselves.
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Thanks for your answer on burn.
I know you have suggested nevermore for the tron. Obviously tron is a royal pain for every interesting deck in the format that wants to play a prison game, and is especially noxious with Ulamog's on exile casting trigger. Unless you are a landkill prison deck Tron seems to be a big barrier to innovative decks.
If you have a counters coming in, could a transformational board of Zur's Weirding/Peace of Mind lock work, exchanging for main deck fogs? Their cards that remove things are at a relatively low ratio given all their cantrips - 2 ugins, 3 o-stones, 4 karn and ulamog remove things, main, 3 nature's claim side....about 1/6-1/5th of the deck max- 10-`13 cards- or in other words 20-26 life of Zur's payments. Once POM and Zurs hit, there may only be one thing in hand needing countering, then just pay life on their removal spells/ulamog. Peace of Mind means each of our cards drawn denying them 1.5 cards. Its an unusual idea, but one that could work. Given the ease of critter based matches lacking counterspells, a 10 card sideboard for this type of deck, which would overlap with Burn (Peace of Mind), may be the answer.
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Can I ask if anyone has boarded in Sanctimony ? With a set of main deck Leyines and a couple of Runed Halos on Eidolon the burn issues this deck is supposed to have might be negated. I have experience of the former in a lot of decks from Loam Pox to Pillow Forts. It really does gain a fair chunk of life, and triggers on tapping for mana so that anti-lifegain spells have to be paid for and you still gain some life.
On the janky side of things Personal Sanctuary to keep them off your back in your turn. Peace of Mind main deck on spare lands could work from main, especially if there is a hard lock fog engine with a Kami (a la Martyr Proc). Apologies if these have been raised before.
Really sorry to miss this comment. L.S stood for lightning storm in ad nauseam, which has an activated ability hit by suppression field.
On another note I am experimenting with the zur's lock from the board vs tron, its very slow process in terms testing and, indeed, in casting at t4, but with a critical mass of counters in the deck to stop stuff happening t3 it works well- trouble is I can't find room for that many counters in the main and side.
I don't know how well it would work, I do know I have never seen a deck lock Tron out forever with just non critter permanents in any prison deck-they always win the war, especially if they diversify to run all is dust singletons in addition to the uginx2 , o stone x3-4, 2 ulamog's and inevitable 3 nature's claim. I have seen them been locked out for a while and then died to an enormous combo play, and I have seen them been locked out forever when some landkill has come in or is present naturally, but a combination of needles, stony silence, orings, suppression fields, nevermore and rule of law/eidolon effects I have never seen cut it in a variety of decks laden with them. All they need is one piece of removal that has not been Nevermored or Needled and suddenly the Needle or Stony bites it and they start blowing stuff up. Now that Ulamog's cast trigger is about I have even seen one wriggle out of an Enduring ideal deck where there was a resolved Enduring ideal fetching Dovescape with a Stony Silence and friends down. The damn deck has just so much inevitability and so much removal. It is such a shame because otherwise Turbo Fog is really well-placed as a prison-ish deck that has a lovely customisable and consistent mix of permanents and spell power. Shame they did not nerf tron more......)
I know from pillow fort and other lockdown decks that locking Tron out with just permanents is hard- needles, stony, rule of laws and nevermores are only one kill card away from them being at full capacity again, hence my suggestion of Zur's Weirding which is one of the few that work and protect themselves.
I know you have suggested nevermore for the tron. Obviously tron is a royal pain for every interesting deck in the format that wants to play a prison game, and is especially noxious with Ulamog's on exile casting trigger. Unless you are a landkill prison deck Tron seems to be a big barrier to innovative decks.
If you have a counters coming in, could a transformational board of Zur's Weirding/Peace of Mind lock work, exchanging for main deck fogs? Their cards that remove things are at a relatively low ratio given all their cantrips - 2 ugins, 3 o-stones, 4 karn and ulamog remove things, main, 3 nature's claim side....about 1/6-1/5th of the deck max- 10-`13 cards- or in other words 20-26 life of Zur's payments. Once POM and Zurs hit, there may only be one thing in hand needing countering, then just pay life on their removal spells/ulamog. Peace of Mind means each of our cards drawn denying them 1.5 cards. Its an unusual idea, but one that could work. Given the ease of critter based matches lacking counterspells, a 10 card sideboard for this type of deck, which would overlap with Burn (Peace of Mind), may be the answer.
On the janky side of things Personal Sanctuary to keep them off your back in your turn. Peace of Mind main deck on spare lands could work from main, especially if there is a hard lock fog engine with a Kami (a la Martyr Proc). Apologies if these have been raised before.