If they do not run either then happy days either way......they get milled rapidly. Tron always has something to nick.
I have enough on my plate with T Fog/Ideal/Pillow-fort and even Boros-Bridge needing attention this summer (I have 7 weeks off work though). I doubt that I will get more than one of these to a state where I am happy. It took two years to get my Landkill-Stax to a point where it won events consistently, and that was with some SCG placed lists (and helpful players) to work with.
The problem with TFog is the number of fogs gets smaller, more flexible stuff comes in and then its just another Snapcaster deck with Nahiri etc. replaced by other control cards- in this case fogs and the like. More flexible Dawn charm-esque fogs would change my priorities, and any new Pillow-Fort pieces would make me revisit the deck.
Generally Modern works on combining strategies - a Plan A and B. Exemplars would be Living End runs a landkill element, Co-Co decks can operate as beatdowns or Melira, Twin used to be a control deck that could combo and the 4 color decks that abound are all beatdown/control midrange decks capable of both modes. Weaker are strong but narrow decks are ones like Ad Nauseam- it has two wincons but both require the signature card. RG Tron too, it only really gets away with it because it really has two plans- a durdle plan and a ramp into t3/4 goddies plan.
A mixture of permanent types helps avoid blowouts, but cards that restrict opponent's ability to do things are often key. Trouble is decks like TF by definition work on one type of effect and one gameplan. That is why I think they are better with a hybrid approach, part-pillow fort if you like. Most of our opponents have a multi-color tool box removal suite. To beat this we need a lot of flexibility ourselves......
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
Done nothing here. Played modern recently twice in the past week, going 9-2, but that was with RW landkill stax. Other than that not really, just done Legacy and Draft for a fair chunk of time.
I am looking at an Owling Mine type deck with some fog in myself (featuring thoughts of ruin perhaps), but as for UW, I did at least work out that Bribery is the way to beat Tron game 2, even if I did little with that. I will get back on working on the fog deck, but as time progresses I seem to run less fogs....
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
I want to play Thing in the Ice, but have no time to test or indeed play much Modern at the moment- lots of draft, Legacy events locally, esp as EMA is released............
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
Bribery wouldn't be bad if we can land it before we get in trouble.
I wait till seven mana, cast it, and hold a counter back- ensuring one hit with Ulamog if he is in the deck.
If I don't draw another counter or snappy from the 8, then the worst that can happen is they kill Ulamog after he has milled them 20 cards, if I do have another counter I win. Seems like a better deal than trying to mill them and hope they don't draw and cast ulamog. If they board Ulamog out G3 I am in a better place anyway.
Really I still need the 8 counters post board, but I feel I have a good chance g2/3.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
The GP here is Standard, I thought they were all Standard this weekend?
I have been running Bribery in the board for Tron, it can be really sweet but with a large counter suite post board and couple of snappies sometimes the deck just works before it gets relevant.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
Hi, what in this deck doesn't work? Why it is not in the developing competitive section?
Well if you look at the RW lockdown thread in the stickied section you will see that RW lockdown has 3 SCG finishes in about 8 months and still has not been promoted. It is worth noting that decks don't get demoted, so to put a deck up requires lots of evidence.
As Tyler says Tron and burn are hard-impossible with standard builds of a TF, and control is hard.
@Tyler
I have been looking at Tron and the only board plan that gives me a chance is a transformational board to take me up to 8/9 counters and a couple of snapcasters plus annoyance cards like Stony Silence.
I am looking at Bribery as an option. Casting it for 7 mana (5 + 2 back up for a negate/deprive)could be brutal. It might get better if USA goes down the Nahiri route, one to consider, perhaps as a board card.
Burn is not as bad for me as I am using a few pillow-fort options- a Runed Halo, a Leyline, a Story circle, a Peace of Mind and 2 of my fogs (riot control) gain life. Its not easy though, although Tutelage rocks against them. If they use skullcrack then dawn charm becomes useful in the counter mode. As board cards for this match I am going down the route of a sanctimony/Kor firewalker split.
I would like to try Thing in the Ice main, with 15 fogs, counterspells and snapcasters that is a lot of instants to switch them on. The main issue is that by playing a dude you switch on otherwise dead cards. it might be the sort of card that does the job against tron style decks......
I might just literally have to go for the 8 counter board for Tron too, adding to the 3 main. I doubt Zur's tech will work without discard to hit their hand. If I Increase the number of snappies to 2 that potentially is a lot of counters. Even allowing for World Breaker and Ulamog to take out the odd bit of turbo on casting, it might just be enough to keep them off my back long enough to mill them with Tutelage or a Jace down (5cc one).
If I get a build I am happy with I will post it. My main is up to about 56 cards of 100% certainty, and the remaining slots down to a couple of similar choices.
The sideboard strategies for Tron and combo are key for me to be satisfied as you'd expect. Nobody wants an auto-lose.
It takes so long to develop a deck that is so off the radar, but because this one is so binary (you play affinity, etc. you just win) its been a bit quicker than normal- there are swathes of decks that any TF deck just beat. I have been working on this as a sideline to Legacy for a couple of months, but am not expecting anything final till June or later. I entered with the aim of making a TF deck that very often beats aggro but can control enough to beat combo. I accept that Tron etc. will always be bad game 1, all I want is something to give me a reasonable chance of getting game 2. I want to keep the turbo fog theme, but am prepared to be flexible on cutting the fogs down. If I lose the odd non-burn aggro games because I don't quite get enough fogs but gain against midrange Jund, control and combo to have an even chance I will be happy......
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
Hard lines on that. When it does not go your way in Modern it really can not go your way.
One of the reasons I am keen to incorporate a few cards from pillow-fort or permanent control decks is the presence of hyper combo decks like Ad Nauseam that don't win via the usual routes. Grishoalbrand is similar with its damage to the dome. Some permanents can act as pseudo-fogs preventing damage in their own way. I still want fogs in large numbers, but if I can run 15-17 fogs and a few pseudo-fogs I fancy my chances more than running 25 fogs, especially as Angelsong cycles and we have the turbo element to get me to the other damage prevention effects.. I do use the 4 dawn charms that can counter the g1 Lightning Storm, but that is unlikely to win me too many game ones. I use 2 Leylines main, 1 Runed Halo, 1 Story Circle to give me a fighting chance (remembering I run 2 Deprive and am trying Muddle the Mixture main too). Game 2 they always go for the Maniac win, although we have to respect the damage route, so stopping the Ad Nauseam is key, whether by counters or by preventing them casting Angel's grace and Ad Nauseam via Rule of Law effects (I know they can still go for an Unlife the previous turn). That Zur's Weirding ploy may work too, preventing them drawing the few relevant cards they have, though I have not tested that yet, its just a hunch. As I mentioned previously I own Ad Nauseam, and like most decks it they always have two plans, making it harder to win by just traditional fogs......
Snappy does likely allow the midgame choice of either a fog/dawncharm counter/ deprive once you hit 4 mana, which is nice. Before that his main issue is that he is not a fog until you have cast one. I am looking at trying to increase flexibility, because I want to run some counters main. I also try to run fogs over the 1-3cc curve, with riot control at the top end, where it shines in the burn match. I want to not be dead to chalice as some decks run it here. I am currently @ 7 1cc fogs, 4 angelsong/4 dawncharm, 2 riot control. The 1cc fogs are essential for casting a turbo element like my solitary baby Jace or mine and still being able to fog, but late in the game I find myself short on control elements rather than fogs.
Good luck with the primer, I have not read the original primer. EDIT- just did- it is a bit short and needs more exposition, especially on the options regarding colours.
Everyone likes a full card choice section which covers all the possibilities, in my experience those are what I got most requests about for my primers- as long as a strategy overview and a matchup section is there you can't go wrong.
I try to stick to harder counters (i.e. not leak effects) and aim at 2 cc and 1cc, so that I can fog as well. 3cc is pushing it I think.
How many counters ensure we stop everything Tron does? I can't get more than 7 into the 75, although elixir would help.
Running two snappies may help as well, flashback into fogs or counters sounds flexible.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
For me the best counter is deprive- returning a land is not an issue in decks where we need counters- tron esque decks. I use temple of enlightenment so it helps there too, and I use piece of mind.
They must be hard counters- leak effects won't work if the game goes long as it must in order to win. They are dire vs Tron too.
I don't think there are enough counters you can run to stop everything, hence I want to run 3-4 Zur's as I mentioned before and try and lock them with piece of mind, using 5/6/7 counters 5 board 2 main.
I am using 1 5cc Jace from M14 and one of his Lorwyn predecessor, the later needs 3 activations to win most games.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
Mon Siege is a super card for any prison deck or combo/prison deck like Enduring Ideal. It could be useful in a Turbo Fog deck, making Maelstrom pulse cost 5 for example. Interaction with Tutelage is good too.
The main issue from what I can see in limited game time is that a T Fog deck needs 10-15 board cards vs Tron and some against grindy mindrange and burn, whilst wiping the floor with certain other decks- very binary, basically.
I do think that using a few pillow fort tricks in the Fog lists is the way to go for me. I will look at an Owling Mine type list with FV and Dictates plus stuff, but it won't be fogging. Might be a few months before I get round to it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
I have always adored owling mine, FV is obviously a direct fit.
I have found that Fevered Visions works a treat in a Legacy Stasis shell with the now unbanned Vise.
The deck is remarkably competitive, way beyond my expectations of what is essentially a dead deck type, and has a particularly strong Miracles and creature matches. FV is an absolute house. The deck probably won't catch on though, its pretty soft to Storm, Game 1 BUG and Infect + reanimator type decks that are fast combo with Force back up. Not many people can afford to put Tabernacles into a deck that is not going to be top tier though. But that deck is basically many times better with FV. Owling mine will get better too for the same reason, although its lock is much softer.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
I am aiming to play a few permanents to get a slight pillow-fort ish feel to it in back up to the turbo and the fog aspects- couple of leyline, runed halo, peace of mind, maybe a board sphere of safety. Won't do anything v tron = that g1 has gone, but may help with other matches.
Monastery Siege is decent vs those kill everything decks- abrupt decay @ 4, pulse @ 5 is a lot nicer. I use 4 dictate, 4 mine and am considering a mini jace.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I have enough on my plate with T Fog/Ideal/Pillow-fort and even Boros-Bridge needing attention this summer (I have 7 weeks off work though). I doubt that I will get more than one of these to a state where I am happy. It took two years to get my Landkill-Stax to a point where it won events consistently, and that was with some SCG placed lists (and helpful players) to work with.
The problem with TFog is the number of fogs gets smaller, more flexible stuff comes in and then its just another Snapcaster deck with Nahiri etc. replaced by other control cards- in this case fogs and the like. More flexible Dawn charm-esque fogs would change my priorities, and any new Pillow-Fort pieces would make me revisit the deck.
Generally Modern works on combining strategies - a Plan A and B. Exemplars would be Living End runs a landkill element, Co-Co decks can operate as beatdowns or Melira, Twin used to be a control deck that could combo and the 4 color decks that abound are all beatdown/control midrange decks capable of both modes. Weaker are strong but narrow decks are ones like Ad Nauseam- it has two wincons but both require the signature card. RG Tron too, it only really gets away with it because it really has two plans- a durdle plan and a ramp into t3/4 goddies plan.
A mixture of permanent types helps avoid blowouts, but cards that restrict opponent's ability to do things are often key. Trouble is decks like TF by definition work on one type of effect and one gameplan. That is why I think they are better with a hybrid approach, part-pillow fort if you like. Most of our opponents have a multi-color tool box removal suite. To beat this we need a lot of flexibility ourselves......
I am looking at an Owling Mine type deck with some fog in myself (featuring thoughts of ruin perhaps), but as for UW, I did at least work out that Bribery is the way to beat Tron game 2, even if I did little with that. I will get back on working on the fog deck, but as time progresses I seem to run less fogs....
For my money.
Tron requires that the deck after boarding looks more like a control UW build with some fogs adn turbo.
I wait till seven mana, cast it, and hold a counter back- ensuring one hit with Ulamog if he is in the deck.
If I don't draw another counter or snappy from the 8, then the worst that can happen is they kill Ulamog after he has milled them 20 cards, if I do have another counter I win. Seems like a better deal than trying to mill them and hope they don't draw and cast ulamog. If they board Ulamog out G3 I am in a better place anyway.
Really I still need the 8 counters post board, but I feel I have a good chance g2/3.
I have been running Bribery in the board for Tron, it can be really sweet but with a large counter suite post board and couple of snappies sometimes the deck just works before it gets relevant.
Well if you look at the RW lockdown thread in the stickied section you will see that RW lockdown has 3 SCG finishes in about 8 months and still has not been promoted. It is worth noting that decks don't get demoted, so to put a deck up requires lots of evidence.
As Tyler says Tron and burn are hard-impossible with standard builds of a TF, and control is hard.
@Tyler
I have been looking at Tron and the only board plan that gives me a chance is a transformational board to take me up to 8/9 counters and a couple of snapcasters plus annoyance cards like Stony Silence.
I am looking at Bribery as an option. Casting it for 7 mana (5 + 2 back up for a negate/deprive)could be brutal. It might get better if USA goes down the Nahiri route, one to consider, perhaps as a board card.
Burn is not as bad for me as I am using a few pillow-fort options- a Runed Halo, a Leyline, a Story circle, a Peace of Mind and 2 of my fogs (riot control) gain life. Its not easy though, although Tutelage rocks against them. If they use skullcrack then dawn charm becomes useful in the counter mode. As board cards for this match I am going down the route of a sanctimony/Kor firewalker split.
I would like to try Thing in the Ice main, with 15 fogs, counterspells and snapcasters that is a lot of instants to switch them on. The main issue is that by playing a dude you switch on otherwise dead cards. it might be the sort of card that does the job against tron style decks......
If I get a build I am happy with I will post it. My main is up to about 56 cards of 100% certainty, and the remaining slots down to a couple of similar choices.
The sideboard strategies for Tron and combo are key for me to be satisfied as you'd expect. Nobody wants an auto-lose.
It takes so long to develop a deck that is so off the radar, but because this one is so binary (you play affinity, etc. you just win) its been a bit quicker than normal- there are swathes of decks that any TF deck just beat. I have been working on this as a sideline to Legacy for a couple of months, but am not expecting anything final till June or later. I entered with the aim of making a TF deck that very often beats aggro but can control enough to beat combo. I accept that Tron etc. will always be bad game 1, all I want is something to give me a reasonable chance of getting game 2. I want to keep the turbo fog theme, but am prepared to be flexible on cutting the fogs down. If I lose the odd non-burn aggro games because I don't quite get enough fogs but gain against midrange Jund, control and combo to have an even chance I will be happy......
One of the reasons I am keen to incorporate a few cards from pillow-fort or permanent control decks is the presence of hyper combo decks like Ad Nauseam that don't win via the usual routes. Grishoalbrand is similar with its damage to the dome. Some permanents can act as pseudo-fogs preventing damage in their own way. I still want fogs in large numbers, but if I can run 15-17 fogs and a few pseudo-fogs I fancy my chances more than running 25 fogs, especially as Angelsong cycles and we have the turbo element to get me to the other damage prevention effects.. I do use the 4 dawn charms that can counter the g1 Lightning Storm, but that is unlikely to win me too many game ones. I use 2 Leylines main, 1 Runed Halo, 1 Story Circle to give me a fighting chance (remembering I run 2 Deprive and am trying Muddle the Mixture main too). Game 2 they always go for the Maniac win, although we have to respect the damage route, so stopping the Ad Nauseam is key, whether by counters or by preventing them casting Angel's grace and Ad Nauseam via Rule of Law effects (I know they can still go for an Unlife the previous turn). That Zur's Weirding ploy may work too, preventing them drawing the few relevant cards they have, though I have not tested that yet, its just a hunch. As I mentioned previously I own Ad Nauseam, and like most decks it they always have two plans, making it harder to win by just traditional fogs......
Good luck with the primer, I have not read the original primer. EDIT- just did- it is a bit short and needs more exposition, especially on the options regarding colours.
Everyone likes a full card choice section which covers all the possibilities, in my experience those are what I got most requests about for my primers- as long as a strategy overview and a matchup section is there you can't go wrong.
How many counters ensure we stop everything Tron does? I can't get more than 7 into the 75, although elixir would help.
Running two snappies may help as well, flashback into fogs or counters sounds flexible.
They must be hard counters- leak effects won't work if the game goes long as it must in order to win. They are dire vs Tron too.
I don't think there are enough counters you can run to stop everything, hence I want to run 3-4 Zur's as I mentioned before and try and lock them with piece of mind, using 5/6/7 counters 5 board 2 main.
I am using 1 5cc Jace from M14 and one of his Lorwyn predecessor, the later needs 3 activations to win most games.
The main issue from what I can see in limited game time is that a T Fog deck needs 10-15 board cards vs Tron and some against grindy mindrange and burn, whilst wiping the floor with certain other decks- very binary, basically.
I do think that using a few pillow fort tricks in the Fog lists is the way to go for me. I will look at an Owling Mine type list with FV and Dictates plus stuff, but it won't be fogging. Might be a few months before I get round to it.
I have found that Fevered Visions works a treat in a Legacy Stasis shell with the now unbanned Vise.
The deck is remarkably competitive, way beyond my expectations of what is essentially a dead deck type, and has a particularly strong Miracles and creature matches. FV is an absolute house. The deck probably won't catch on though, its pretty soft to Storm, Game 1 BUG and Infect + reanimator type decks that are fast combo with Force back up. Not many people can afford to put Tabernacles into a deck that is not going to be top tier though. But that deck is basically many times better with FV. Owling mine will get better too for the same reason, although its lock is much softer.
Monastery Siege is decent vs those kill everything decks- abrupt decay @ 4, pulse @ 5 is a lot nicer. I use 4 dictate, 4 mine and am considering a mini jace.