Draft Build going to try this as soon as I get excavators
Meta as I've seen it is, 2x burn, 1 living end or ru control, 2 eldrazi tron, 1 Gx tron, 1 merfolk, 1 Junk, 1 azban coco, RW nahiri moon~decks I've seen less often 1 gifts storm, 1 grixis shadow, wu hexproof(bad), bw tokens (bad),
Any thoughts? Any must include hate bears for the above meta?
A+ for the name. Only 5 dorks and 21 3/4 drops seems too greedy, though.
Good stuff. Although you touched on the Grixis Shadow matchup, I'd like to hear more about how that matchup has been for you (main-board and post-board)? That deck is my main concern right now when I evaluate basically anything, and it seems to me that those matches are very rarely won through combo, and more often won through attrition. So, I'm wondering how you think the Vizier version is positioned vis-a-vis the traditional version against Grixis?
Having read the comments and Kelvin Chew's latest article, as well as from my own observations, I think I want to try the traditional version with about 3 Voice as well as 4 Knight 4 Reflector 4 Queller and 2 Retreat at the 3-drop slot. I won't be able to play for the next little while so if anyone would like to try that out and give me their thoughts that would be great
How has the Reflector Mage version been performing against Grixis for you? It does seem like Reflector Mage is very well positioned right now but I don't love the idea of losing Queller... still, if it can get that matchup to favorable territory I might consider it.
Newly spoiled: Ramunap Excavator aka Crucible of Worlds on a stick. Oh boy. This card looks very interesting for the traditional list. It's a better fit in the Todd Stevens GW value town list though. Perhaps some hybrid of that deck and Knightfall could make good use of this?
Voice did tons of work against UW control and was very solid against both death's shadow decks I faced.
I guess it definitely depens on your meta, but it's a great way to get some grinding potential and a potentially pretty big beater for only 2 mana.
A thing to keep in mind is that by adding a 2 cmc mana dork in Druid, two drops become even more important as he allows you to play 2 2-drops on turn 3, or even a 2- and a 3-drop (only wanna do this if you really need to race though. A Druid with a counter on it gets useless for Vizier later on). I'm 11 2-drops and 12-drops now and so far that feels pretty good.
I'm also thinking of replacing my singleton Gavony Township with another Kessig Wolf Run. Giving trample is super relevant in a metagame with lots of Lingering Souls, another enabler to naturally draw for the Vizier/Druid combo doesn't hurt, without Finks we don't have that super sweet synergy, KWR is better with exalted, also pretty good with flyers we play to close out a game...opinions?
It's tough to say. Having Gavony in the deck has won me some games, and it's easier to activate than Wolf Run. That being said, Wolf Run is a combo piece AND good on its own. I think it's worth exploring a configuration that forgoes Gavony for Wolf Run.
I don't understand what you mean about Druid with a counter being useless for Vizier though? That's just not true at all. The Vizier prevents any further counters being put on it. It's true of Kitchen Finks but not of Druid.
So I've been playing a little Knightfall here and there and had the random tought of adding the Vizier/Druid combo to it, since both run in a Company shell anyway. Then I thought, well somebody must have had that idea before me, let me look if I find some lists...awesome to see that deck could actually have some legs!
My deck is pretty similar to Deus837's but:
-1x Birds
-1x E-Wit
-1x Reflector Mage
+2x Voice of Resurgence
+1x Quasali Pridemage
I honestly never liked how many 3-drops original Knightfall runs, it makes for really awkward hand if you don't have a dork, or the dork gets killed or thoughtseized or whatever. It obviously makes your Companies a lot better, but modern is so fast or disruptive that I'd rather have something lower to the ground.
I took the list for some rounds on Cockatrice over the last two days and had a blast!
Cockatrice is known for not really having good competitive players and I probably got a little lucky I won all of the 7 games I played!
Playing against Burn, UW control, 4-colour-Death Shadow, Esper Shadow, Grishoalbrand, Turns and Affinity.
Deck was tons of fun, actually never comboed out with KotR but multiple times with Vizier/Druid. Definitely made some misplays here and there and the decklist is very raw still but I definitely see potential.
Will continue testing over the weekend and then maybe it's time to buy some Viziers (while looking through my cards I found out that I actually already have a playset of Druids haha).
Nice!
I was also skeptical of the number of 3 drops in most lists, but in this one it seems right because we're running 10-11 dorks including Druid. Putting Voice back in is interesting though (after all I was saying that losing Voice was a major downside against Grixis, so why not put it back in). How has Voice been performing for you?
Any thought on adding a Hall of the Bandit Lord in the Vizier variant? Turning off summoning sickness on Devoted Druid or Knight means the opponent is forced to hold up mana if you're untapping with a Hall on board.
I saw the Reddit Post about this. Honestly the fact that it comes into play tapped makes it pretty bad IMO, not to mention that bolting yourself in the face can be pretty terrible unless you're winning that turn. If you're after haste you're probably better off with Hanweir Battlements or Slayer's Stronghold. Honestly though utility land slots are limited; I'd much rather play 2 Kessig personally, or Gavony, Ghost Quarter
The idea is simple: integrate the Vizier combo with minimal impact to the main Knightfall plan. No Duskwatch Recruiter-Ballista nonsense: I can Chord straight into Rhonas the Indomitable, Coco into it, or use Kessig Wolf-Run for infinite damage. I'm taking a middle ground between Eli Kassis' list and Kelvin Chew's by running 3 Vizier of Remedies.
The Knightfall plan is largely intact: 4 Knight, 2 Retreat, 7 dorks, 3 paths, and 3 Spell Queller. I'm running 21 lands rather than the usual 22 to compensate for the fact that there are 11 manadorks counting Devoted Druid. The fact that there are 4 utility lands helps mitigate mana flooding. We unfortunately lose out on Tireless Tracker and Courser of Kruphix value, and Vendillion Clique is totally impossible for us to cast, but that's ok because we have Eternal Witness value instead! Witness was already a totally reasonable option, and now it helps us combo off and use all out mana every turn. It's great and it would not be unreasonable to try and fit in a fourth.
Though I'm in no way knocking Eli Kassis' and Kelvin Chew's builds here (both are brilliant players), the main advantage of this list over their lists, in my opinion, is that we get to keep Path to Exile and Spell Queller.
Path is arguably the best removal spell in modern at the moment. There's a reason it's the most-played spell in the format at the moment. It permanently deals with threats from all of the top decks: Death's Shadow, Tasigur, the Golden Fang, Thought-Knot Seer, Endbringer, Goblin Electromancer, not to mention Kitchen Finks and Devoted Druid (though note that Druid can self-destruct to avoid being exiled). There's just no way cutting Path is right.
As for Spell Queller, it's catch-all disruption, and it increases the density of instant-speed threats, making our deck trickier and less predictable. Holding up mana could mean Queller, Path, Company, Chord, or (postboard) countermagic, Izzet Staticaster. It's a great card that basically singlehandedly propelled Knightfall from obscurity to a tier 1.5 deck that's well-respected.
What's really notable is the synergy between the two strategies:
Chord of Calling makes the Retreat combo better by letting us fetch Knight at end of turn
Knight of the Reliquary is big enough to turn on Rhonas, making that card a real threat. It also fetches Kessig Wolf Run as an alternate win condition when we need a sink for infinite mana
Spell Queller protects both combos, increasing our resilience to removal.
So in conclusion, I really like this build and I think it does have legs. It's definitely better against linear decks that don't interact. This being said, the real casualty here is Voice of Resurgence, which might be the best card we have in the Death's Shadow matchup. With shadow, and Grixis Shadow especially, being potentially the most threatening deck in the format, it might be that the traditional list is better positioned at the moment.
Those are just my thoughts. I welcome your opinions and constructive criticism.
If we talk about 2 different decks, I absolutely agree with the analysis. But by comparing the new Bant interation with the Abzan deck, I don't see the reasoning behing playing blue instead of black.
I believe the Vizier combo doesn't really fit into Knightfall. The new Abzan Company versions are mainly a combo deck and can outgrind the opponent sometimes. However, Knightfall imo is a creature-toolbox deck that works more like a tempo/midrange deck that has the option to combo off if the pieces come together. Retreat also feels like a "natural" card in the deck, whereas the Druid/Vizier package seems to be isolated from the rest of the deck.
Bothe decks may be CoCo decks, but their gameplan is totally different. Also, giving up on Path to Exile is something I am very sceptical about, I think the removal is needed more in our deck than another tutor.
Both of them are obviously way better players than I am, so I might be wrong with my assumptions, but I feel like the new version is mainly a result of the hype around the new combo and we will see more of the "classic" list in the future.
Here's where I disagree with you that the gameplans don't fit together:
1) you yourself said that Knightfall is, to some degree, a toolbox deck. The Vizier version actually does fit into that plan by allowing us to play Chord of Calling. In my opinion, if there is a version of this build that is worth running it will be one that balances the combo plan with the toolbox plan.
2) Knight of the Reliquary fits quite naturally into the combo plan as well by offering a chance to tutor Kessig Wolf-Run for infinite damage. It's not quite as good in the mana outlet slot as Duskwatch Recruiter or Rhonas, but it's an independently powerful card as well and here it has even more applications than elsewhere. Some Naya Vizier lists that are floating out there are in fact running Knight of the Reliquary for these reasons.
This being said, going for two copies of Vizier seems like a good way to play that combo without being all-in on it. Harsh Mentor does seem great against opposing Vizier decks.
Note the horrendous mislabeling as "Counters Company". I don't understand how that name gained traction despite the majority of the community hating it.
our two drops are great? im not sure why people think otherwise. Voice and ooze are both great in this DS format. the only 2 drop im medium on is selfless spirit but it serves a very specific purpose
Our 2-drops are good utility, but they don't contribute to the combo plan in any way, and aren't heavy hitters like our 3-drop slot. This is totally fine, mind you, and Knightfall is doing great as a deck with a mix of utility, grindy beatdown and an occasional combo.
...But (and keep in mind I'm mostly theorycrafting here because I don't have testing results) there may be matchups where the linear combo plan offered by Druid/Vizier might be more proactively powerful, and that's uninteractive decks such as Tron, Ad Nauseam, maybe Dredge and Storm? Most of our 2-drops are usually useless in these matchups.
There is the obvious exception of Scooze vs. Storm and of course vs. Dredge, which makes me think we should run one Scooze in the main to find with Chord. Pridemage is decent against Ad Nauseam but not amazing.
I'd be interested to see if the Vizier version can perform in those matchups. It's possible it's just not worth it and we should all be sticking to the tried and true list. All I'm saying is don't write this version off just yet.
Skuttlespike/JetpackBlues thanks for the stream, I really enjoyed it and look forward to watching more.
I honestly don't share your negative outlook on the Knightfall/Vizier mash-up you were playing. I think it has legs with a few tweaks. The second match against UW looked winnable (if slightly worse than traditional Knightfall), and I think the match against Green Devotion could have gone differently with a Ghost Quarter in the list (though note this is probably a bad match-up for traditional Knightfall in general. We don't care though because Green Devotion is probably a tier 3 deck at best!)
I also don't know about more Birds over Nobles; I feel Noble is probably the best card in the deck. I say that with the full knowledge that fewer birds would make having Red for Wolf Run more awkward, but the Exalted is just so powerful. Overall threatening the combo seems pretty powerful. I wouldn't give up on the build yet.
A+ for the name. Only 5 dorks and 21 3/4 drops seems too greedy, though.
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
Good stuff. Although you touched on the Grixis Shadow matchup, I'd like to hear more about how that matchup has been for you (main-board and post-board)? That deck is my main concern right now when I evaluate basically anything, and it seems to me that those matches are very rarely won through combo, and more often won through attrition. So, I'm wondering how you think the Vizier version is positioned vis-a-vis the traditional version against Grixis?
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
It's tough to say. Having Gavony in the deck has won me some games, and it's easier to activate than Wolf Run. That being said, Wolf Run is a combo piece AND good on its own. I think it's worth exploring a configuration that forgoes Gavony for Wolf Run.
I don't understand what you mean about Druid with a counter being useless for Vizier though? That's just not true at all. The Vizier prevents any further counters being put on it. It's true of Kitchen Finks but not of Druid.
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
Nice!
I was also skeptical of the number of 3 drops in most lists, but in this one it seems right because we're running 10-11 dorks including Druid. Putting Voice back in is interesting though (after all I was saying that losing Voice was a major downside against Grixis, so why not put it back in). How has Voice been performing for you?
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
I saw the Reddit Post about this. Honestly the fact that it comes into play tapped makes it pretty bad IMO, not to mention that bolting yourself in the face can be pretty terrible unless you're winning that turn. If you're after haste you're probably better off with Hanweir Battlements or Slayer's Stronghold. Honestly though utility land slots are limited; I'd much rather play 2 Kessig personally, or Gavony, Ghost Quarter
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
// 27 Creature
3 Vizier of Remedies
4 Devoted Druid
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Birds of Paradise
3 Spell Queller
3 Eternal Witness
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reflector Mage
// 2 Enchantment
2 Retreat to Coralhelm
// 10 Instant
4 Collected Company
3 Chord of Calling
3 Path to Exile
// 21 Land
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Temple Garden
1 Stomping Ground
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Gavony Township
2 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Arid Mesa
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Reflector Mage
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Selfless Spirit
// 2 Enchantment
2 Stony Silence
// 3 Instant
2 Unified Will
1 Negate
// 2 Land
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter
The idea is simple: integrate the Vizier combo with minimal impact to the main Knightfall plan. No Duskwatch Recruiter-Ballista nonsense: I can Chord straight into Rhonas the Indomitable, Coco into it, or use Kessig Wolf-Run for infinite damage. I'm taking a middle ground between Eli Kassis' list and Kelvin Chew's by running 3 Vizier of Remedies.
The Knightfall plan is largely intact: 4 Knight, 2 Retreat, 7 dorks, 3 paths, and 3 Spell Queller. I'm running 21 lands rather than the usual 22 to compensate for the fact that there are 11 manadorks counting Devoted Druid. The fact that there are 4 utility lands helps mitigate mana flooding. We unfortunately lose out on Tireless Tracker and Courser of Kruphix value, and Vendillion Clique is totally impossible for us to cast, but that's ok because we have Eternal Witness value instead! Witness was already a totally reasonable option, and now it helps us combo off and use all out mana every turn. It's great and it would not be unreasonable to try and fit in a fourth.
Reflector Mage and Scavenging Ooze are our toolbox package. Spellskite, Qasali Pridemage and Selfless Spirit, among others, could all fit in that slot as well depending on the meta.
Though I'm in no way knocking Eli Kassis' and Kelvin Chew's builds here (both are brilliant players), the main advantage of this list over their lists, in my opinion, is that we get to keep Path to Exile and Spell Queller.
Path is arguably the best removal spell in modern at the moment. There's a reason it's the most-played spell in the format at the moment. It permanently deals with threats from all of the top decks: Death's Shadow, Tasigur, the Golden Fang, Thought-Knot Seer, Endbringer, Goblin Electromancer, not to mention Kitchen Finks and Devoted Druid (though note that Druid can self-destruct to avoid being exiled). There's just no way cutting Path is right.
As for Spell Queller, it's catch-all disruption, and it increases the density of instant-speed threats, making our deck trickier and less predictable. Holding up mana could mean Queller, Path, Company, Chord, or (postboard) countermagic, Izzet Staticaster. It's a great card that basically singlehandedly propelled Knightfall from obscurity to a tier 1.5 deck that's well-respected.
What's really notable is the synergy between the two strategies:
So in conclusion, I really like this build and I think it does have legs. It's definitely better against linear decks that don't interact. This being said, the real casualty here is Voice of Resurgence, which might be the best card we have in the Death's Shadow matchup. With shadow, and Grixis Shadow especially, being potentially the most threatening deck in the format, it might be that the traditional list is better positioned at the moment.
Those are just my thoughts. I welcome your opinions and constructive criticism.
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
IMO the advantages of Bant Vizier relative to Abzan Vizier would be that it is more disruptive (Spell Queller, Reflector Mage, Unified Will), less disruptible (Spell Queller as protection, and less susceptibility to graveyard hate), and has a better beatdown plan (Knight of the Reliquary).
The main downside is less consistency in terms of comboing out. Abzan is definitely better at that.
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
Here's where I disagree with you that the gameplans don't fit together:
1) you yourself said that Knightfall is, to some degree, a toolbox deck. The Vizier version actually does fit into that plan by allowing us to play Chord of Calling. In my opinion, if there is a version of this build that is worth running it will be one that balances the combo plan with the toolbox plan.
2) Knight of the Reliquary fits quite naturally into the combo plan as well by offering a chance to tutor Kessig Wolf-Run for infinite damage. It's not quite as good in the mana outlet slot as Duskwatch Recruiter or Rhonas, but it's an independently powerful card as well and here it has even more applications than elsewhere. Some Naya Vizier lists that are floating out there are in fact running Knight of the Reliquary for these reasons.
My bad for not knowing In my defense I started playing Magic just after that. He's also not a household name in this thread like Kelvin Chew is.
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpkob17/9th-32nd-decklists-2017-05-28
I would say it's too early to tell whether the Vizier version is better or worse than the traditional list, but it's safe to say that it IS viable.
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
This being said, going for two copies of Vizier seems like a good way to play that combo without being all-in on it. Harsh Mentor does seem great against opposing Vizier decks.
Note the horrendous mislabeling as "Counters Company". I don't understand how that name gained traction despite the majority of the community hating it.
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
Our 2-drops are good utility, but they don't contribute to the combo plan in any way, and aren't heavy hitters like our 3-drop slot. This is totally fine, mind you, and Knightfall is doing great as a deck with a mix of utility, grindy beatdown and an occasional combo.
...But (and keep in mind I'm mostly theorycrafting here because I don't have testing results) there may be matchups where the linear combo plan offered by Druid/Vizier might be more proactively powerful, and that's uninteractive decks such as Tron, Ad Nauseam, maybe Dredge and Storm? Most of our 2-drops are usually useless in these matchups.
There is the obvious exception of Scooze vs. Storm and of course vs. Dredge, which makes me think we should run one Scooze in the main to find with Chord. Pridemage is decent against Ad Nauseam but not amazing.
I'd be interested to see if the Vizier version can perform in those matchups. It's possible it's just not worth it and we should all be sticking to the tried and true list. All I'm saying is don't write this version off just yet.
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
I honestly don't share your negative outlook on the Knightfall/Vizier mash-up you were playing. I think it has legs with a few tweaks. The second match against UW looked winnable (if slightly worse than traditional Knightfall), and I think the match against Green Devotion could have gone differently with a Ghost Quarter in the list (though note this is probably a bad match-up for traditional Knightfall in general. We don't care though because Green Devotion is probably a tier 3 deck at best!)
I also don't know about more Birds over Nobles; I feel Noble is probably the best card in the deck. I say that with the full knowledge that fewer birds would make having Red for Wolf Run more awkward, but the Exalted is just so powerful. Overall threatening the combo seems pretty powerful. I wouldn't give up on the build yet.
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB