Uncage the Menagerie could work if we play a lot of 4 drop creatures.
I mean the best ones I think are Huntmaster, Thrun, Obstinate Baloth, Polukranos, Avalanche Riders, Chameleon Colossus, Hazoret the Fervent and Pia and Kia Nalaar.
I bunch of 1 ofs with this card could be valuable either in addition to or in replace of Primal Command.
You'd be paying 6 mana (4GG) to fetch 4 different 4 mana creatures. Doesn't sound too bad. Good enough to test at least.
I'm actually curious about Chameleon Colossus myself. On paper it seems similar to Stormbreath Dragon in as far as that it is a threat that has protection from a removal colour. The down side I'm seeing here is that Path to Exile can hit it, and it doesn't have a form of combat evasion (trample would have been nice, even if only off the activated ability). The up side is it's cheaper than the dragon (by 1) and is a mana sink on a decent ability.
As for the whole Madcap Experiment + Platinum Emperion combo, this may have been pointed out before, but I just now noticed an interaction that I'm not too fond of: you can't crack fetch lands with the Emperion out, effectivly turning them into dead cards. I know Moon lets I use them for R, but we all know that the Moon can hide from us in more games than we care to admit.
Game 1 on the draw he was just too fast for me. Lost this one. Game 2 I was too fast for him. Game three I drawed three Anger of the Gods consecutively. He expected the first one, played around the second one and was crushed by the third one. He said he would have never thought that I would find three. Good for me that I play a playset of them in the SB.
2-1
This is one of the reasons I mainboard Goblin Dark-Dwellers. Reusing sweepers the opponent plays around is an awesome effect.
So today I played the mirror match for the first time and I was wondering if anyone had some general thoughts on sideboarding/strategy. I managed to scrape together the win but I felt like I could have had a better plan for the matchup. My general plan was to board out Blood Moon, since it's generally not great vs other Blood Moon decks, bring in smaller threats (sideboard Kitchen Finks) to try to get pressure down early, and harass their manabase to try to stay ahead on board. Stone raining lands with Utopia Sprawl on it is particularly effective and almost made me want to board one or 2 sprawls out. What are other people's ideas on how to fight the mirror?
The mirror sounds scary. Thinking on it, I would probably board similarly. Take out Moon making space for more threats, just trying to be more aggressive than the opponent. Not sure if I'd drop Sprawl, but I'd definitely spread it across multiple forests instead of all on one.
Personally, I prefer the idea of Trinisphere over the Eidolon fot one reason: Eidolon is a creature and most removal only targets creatures. That said, I can see both coming in against the same things, so it's just a matter of preference.
...R/G LD seems to be one of the few competitive Modern decks that gives pilots above average flexibility regarding card slots while still being able to put up results.
And this is exactly what I love about Ponza. We can have the same core, yet totally different decks
Overall, Trinisphere seems like a viable sideboard option IF there's decks in the meta with plenty of low cost spells, like most zoo / RDW and Storm decks. Problem I see is that by controlling the colour mana they have access to with our Moons and LD spells, we already disrupt their plans, making Trinisphere sounding less useful except against decks like Storm.
As for the builds featuring Goblin Dark-Dwellers or Madcap Experiment + Platinum Emperion, these require you to tweak the entire deck because you included them. I've not tried the Madcap idea as I don't have any Emperion yet, and I do intend on attempting it myself, but I've been loving the Goblin in my build, so I can talk about how I build with it in. Firstly, due to time restraints, I couldn't get any Bonfire of the Damned in time for the tournament I was wanting to play Ponza in. This left me looking for an alternative one-sided board sweeper, which ended up being Mizzium Mortars. In addition, I wanted to try out the Boom // Bust trick on a fetch land, which lead me to using 3 Goblin Dark-Dwellers to cast Bust from the graveyard (this was before the split card rules update). And thanks to the testing with that, the 3 Goblins have been a main stay in my deck ever since. FYI, I only ran 1 'walker: Chandra, Flamecaller, which took the place of the 4th Inferno Titan that I was struggling to find in time, and only to mainboarded 2 Thragtusk and 1 Stormbreath Dragon so the 5 mana cost didn't compete with much else.
Basically, what I'm trying to say is you can't just slot them in, your have to tweak the whole deck to accommodate them.
Have you guys considered Plow Under? I have used it to great effect in other decks. The effect is crippling to decks trying to get to get past mid game. Primal Command is nice, but I think Plow Under is certainly a viable alternative if not an outright replacement.
As interesting Plow Under is, the Primal Command has the up side of fetching your threats and putting any nocreature permanent, like near ultimate planeswalkers, on top of the library.
I played around with a moonless version with GDD but never tested it.
What do you cut for GDD, every spot seems important.
I can only talk about my personal testing. So I tested a Moonless Ponza recently (decklist on page 28). In addition to my report in that post, I got a few more games in on XMage since then. While it's not bad, Moon is just too powerful to cut. While Goblin Dark-Dwellers makes the Moonless idea possible and plays a big role in making it work, even with Molten Rain "replacing" Moon, there's just too many decks in Modern that rely on duals and special lands. I personally had more success with the Moon than without in the same number of games.
All I'm saying is it's not impossible, just not advisable. Number of lands isn't as important to them as the quality of the lands.
We all do. It's partially why I started experimenting with Goblin Dark-Dwellers to make the Sorcery speed not as bad by getting two uses out of it (and other cards).
I guess it depends on what you want out of the card. Personally, I prefer the exile clause on Anger. In addition to Persist / Undying creatures, it hozes any other return from graveyard creatures (Bloodghast; Prized Amalgam; etc), and it doesn't put creatures into the graveyard to boost Tarmogoyf. Plus, most Ponza builds I've seen have a draw engine on their Walkers, so Sweltering's cycling is less useful?
Would be an interesting idea, one worth testing. But, in addition to the {R}{R} problem limiting a turn two Molten Rain, what can be dropped to add them? Personally, I'd run only 2, max 3, Molten Rain, with 4 Stone Rain, 3-4 goblins, and 2-3 Beast Within.
Thinking about it now, something like Voyager Staff or Flamerush Rider could make for some interesting abuse of Goblin Dark-Dwellers etb effect. Not the best choices, but they're the first ones that came to mind.
The idea of using the Dwellers with Molten Rain and other 3 or less mana LD spell (Boom/Bust is another), I have seen in some decks called Moonless Ponza. They only have one or even no Blood Moon and use this slots to add more LD or more creatures or even things like Batterskull (great idea even in a regular Ponza one). Could be an option for a less expensive Ponza deck.
Another card that comes to my mind is Harmonize, what are your thoughts about that? It could correct the lack of draw engine if you haven't got the Chandra planeswalkers. Potentially drawing three cards as soon as turn 2 is something worth to analyze.
So, I tweaked my list to test a Moonless build and took it to FNM tonight (12 May 2017). Sadly there was a low turnout, so we only played 3 rounds, but I defeated all my opponents 2-0 each.
Round 1 vs RDW: Win 2-0
Game 1: Opponent gets me down to 5 before I found My first Obstinate Baloth. He only saw 5 lands (1 was a fetch) I saw 2 Molten Rain, a Goblin, and Acid-Moss with enough acceleration to play them each turn starting turn 2. Won via Goblin.
Game 2: I was able to destroy all 3 his lands every turn and won with Kitchen Finks and Chandra.
Round 2 vs Tron Tooth and Nail: Win 2-0
Both games I kept him off his Tron pieces, which kept him from casting Tooth and Nail.
Game 1: I won via Goblin.
Game 2: After a double land destruction in one turn, he conceded.
Round 3 vs Lanturn Control: Win 2-0
Game 1: Kept him at 0 lands and won via a Goblin.
Game 2: Sided in 2 Destructive Revelry, a Creeping Corrosion, and 2 Ancient Grudge and took out Mizzium Mortars. He only managed to get 1 Codex Shredder and 1 Pyxis of Pandemonium out with the Lantern before my Dragon killed him. He did make some odd moves in this game, like milling my Destructive Revelry instead of exiling it and letting me draw a goblin (Which I used to kill Ensnaring Bridge), letting me draw a dragon (probably relying on Sun Droplet to prolong the game), and casing a second Inquisition when he should have known I was only had land in hand.
I would have preferred a few more games to get a better feel for the build, but I feel the increased amount of LD helps buy enough time to land the threats, and keeping them off the colour(s) to deal with the threats is key.
Today, I have fight against the new combo deck (Vizier+Devoted Druid+Duskwatcher+Ballista) and I have done an Spellskite (0-4). I think is a bit too fast for our deck except if we cast a fast cleaner or slowed then with a T2 Blood Moon.
A while ago I messed around with Hunter's insight for interaction with Dark Dwellars and want to try it again. Anyone else try it?
Honestly, I've personally never felt the need for that much draw in my build. At least not enough to dedicate card slots to. Don't get me wrong, I'm fully aware how strong draw can be, especially in green, I just haven't found myself wishing on draw often enough in my build.
Would be an interesting idea, one worth testing. But, in addition to the {R}{R} problem limiting a turn two Molten Rain, what can be dropped to add them? Personally, I'd run only 2, max 3, Molten Rain, with 4 Stone Rain, 3-4 goblins, and 2-3 Beast Within.
Thinking about it now, something like Voyager Staff or Flamerush Rider could make for some interesting abuse of Goblin Dark-Dwellers etb effect. Not the best choices, but they're the first ones that came to mind.
Searing Blaze doesn't make a massive removal and Anger + Intervention, which must be at least 3 each, just occupied extra slots in the deck that you need for other things.
Clunkiness of Mizzium? Maybe, because of the RRR cost of overload but analyzing each option carefully I think is the best because you have a individual removal if you want to eliminate a dork or a big threat like a T3 Thought Knot Seer or later, clean the opponent board with the overload.
A Miracle Bonfire is an absolute beast but you should not rely on luck and without a miracle one the double X is too heavy. Of course, you lose the damage to the head but I think it's an acceptable sacrifice.
Thanks for the response. I suppose I was thinking more along the lines of Anger + Intervention being an adequate replacement due to Anger not killing a number of our creatures as is and Intervention being useful when it's not paired with Anger. I see what you're saying though; I really haven't liked Bonfire thus far, so I'm going to give Mortars a shot.
My build runs 3 Mizzium Mortars main (with 3 Goblin Dark-Dwellers) and 2-3 Anger of the Gods in sideboard, depending on what modifications I've done to the side. There's no doubt that Anger is a great card, but we mustn't forget that it hits our mana dorks, thus reducing our ramp.
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You'd be paying 6 mana (4GG) to fetch 4 different 4 mana creatures. Doesn't sound too bad. Good enough to test at least.
Firstly, Welcome to the fold Dubarrini.
I'm actually curious about Chameleon Colossus myself. On paper it seems similar to Stormbreath Dragon in as far as that it is a threat that has protection from a removal colour. The down side I'm seeing here is that Path to Exile can hit it, and it doesn't have a form of combat evasion (trample would have been nice, even if only off the activated ability). The up side is it's cheaper than the dragon (by 1) and is a mana sink on a decent ability.
As for the whole Madcap Experiment + Platinum Emperion combo, this may have been pointed out before, but I just now noticed an interaction that I'm not too fond of: you can't crack fetch lands with the Emperion out, effectivly turning them into dead cards. I know Moon lets I use them for R, but we all know that the Moon can hide from us in more games than we care to admit.
This is one of the reasons I mainboard Goblin Dark-Dwellers. Reusing sweepers the opponent plays around is an awesome effect.
The mirror sounds scary. Thinking on it, I would probably board similarly. Take out Moon making space for more threats, just trying to be more aggressive than the opponent. Not sure if I'd drop Sprawl, but I'd definitely spread it across multiple forests instead of all on one.
And this is exactly what I love about Ponza. We can have the same core, yet totally different decks
As for the builds featuring Goblin Dark-Dwellers or Madcap Experiment + Platinum Emperion, these require you to tweak the entire deck because you included them. I've not tried the Madcap idea as I don't have any Emperion yet, and I do intend on attempting it myself, but I've been loving the Goblin in my build, so I can talk about how I build with it in. Firstly, due to time restraints, I couldn't get any Bonfire of the Damned in time for the tournament I was wanting to play Ponza in. This left me looking for an alternative one-sided board sweeper, which ended up being Mizzium Mortars. In addition, I wanted to try out the Boom // Bust trick on a fetch land, which lead me to using 3 Goblin Dark-Dwellers to cast Bust from the graveyard (this was before the split card rules update). And thanks to the testing with that, the 3 Goblins have been a main stay in my deck ever since. FYI, I only ran 1 'walker: Chandra, Flamecaller, which took the place of the 4th Inferno Titan that I was struggling to find in time, and only to mainboarded 2 Thragtusk and 1 Stormbreath Dragon so the 5 mana cost didn't compete with much else.
Basically, what I'm trying to say is you can't just slot them in, your have to tweak the whole deck to accommodate them.
As interesting Plow Under is, the Primal Command has the up side of fetching your threats and putting any nocreature permanent, like near ultimate planeswalkers, on top of the library.
All I'm saying is it's not impossible, just not advisable. Number of lands isn't as important to them as the quality of the lands.
I guess it depends on what you want out of the card. Personally, I prefer the exile clause on Anger. In addition to Persist / Undying creatures, it hozes any other return from graveyard creatures (Bloodghast;
Prized Amalgam; etc), and it doesn't put creatures into the graveyard to boost Tarmogoyf. Plus, most Ponza builds I've seen have a draw engine on their Walkers, so Sweltering's cycling is less useful?
So, I tweaked my list to test a Moonless build and took it to FNM tonight (12 May 2017). Sadly there was a low turnout, so we only played 3 rounds, but I defeated all my opponents 2-0 each.
Game 1: Opponent gets me down to 5 before I found My first Obstinate Baloth. He only saw 5 lands (1 was a fetch) I saw 2 Molten Rain, a Goblin, and Acid-Moss with enough acceleration to play them each turn starting turn 2. Won via Goblin.
Game 2: I was able to destroy all 3 his lands every turn and won with Kitchen Finks and Chandra.
Round 2 vs Tron Tooth and Nail: Win 2-0
Both games I kept him off his Tron pieces, which kept him from casting Tooth and Nail.
Game 1: I won via Goblin.
Game 2: After a double land destruction in one turn, he conceded.
Round 3 vs Lanturn Control: Win 2-0
Game 1: Kept him at 0 lands and won via a Goblin.
Game 2: Sided in 2 Destructive Revelry, a Creeping Corrosion, and 2 Ancient Grudge and took out Mizzium Mortars. He only managed to get 1 Codex Shredder and 1 Pyxis of Pandemonium out with the Lantern before my Dragon killed him. He did make some odd moves in this game, like milling my Destructive Revelry instead of exiling it and letting me draw a goblin (Which I used to kill Ensnaring Bridge), letting me draw a dragon (probably relying on Sun Droplet to prolong the game), and casing a second Inquisition when he should have known I was only had land in hand.
4 Arbor Elf
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
3 Inferno Titan
3 Obstinate Baloth
2 Stormbreath Dragon
Enchantment (4)
4 Utopia Sprawl
Instant (2)
2 Beast Within
Planeswalker (1)
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
Sorcery (14)
4 Mizzium Mortars
3 Molten Rain
3 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
4 Stone Rain
Land (21)
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Cinder Glade
8 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Stomping Ground
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
Sorceries (5)
3 Anger of the Gods
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Crumble to Dust
Instants (4)
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Destructive Revelry
Artifacts (2)
2 Relic of Progenitus
Sadly, I couldn't find some of my lands in time for the FNM, so I increased Cinder Glade from 1 to 3, Forest to 8 to 9, Mountain from 1 to 2, and included 2 Bloodstained Mire. I actually like these numbers for a Moonless Ponza, but would replace the 2 Bloodstained Mire with Wooded Foothills.
I haven't played against it, but bolting either the Vizier or Druid before the other hits play will stop the combo. Sudden Shock comes to mind.
Honestly, I've personally never felt the need for that much draw in my build. At least not enough to dedicate card slots to. Don't get me wrong, I'm fully aware how strong draw can be, especially in green, I just haven't found myself wishing on draw often enough in my build.
Would be an interesting idea, one worth testing. But, in addition to the {R}{R} problem limiting a turn two Molten Rain, what can be dropped to add them? Personally, I'd run only 2, max 3, Molten Rain, with 4 Stone Rain, 3-4 goblins, and 2-3 Beast Within.
Thinking about it now, something like Voyager Staff or Flamerush Rider could make for some interesting abuse of Goblin Dark-Dwellers etb effect. Not the best choices, but they're the first ones that came to mind.
My build runs 3 Mizzium Mortars main (with 3 Goblin Dark-Dwellers) and 2-3 Anger of the Gods in sideboard, depending on what modifications I've done to the side. There's no doubt that Anger is a great card, but we mustn't forget that it hits our mana dorks, thus reducing our ramp.