Hostage Taker seems horribly broken. If you have some way to abuse etbs, it instantly wins the game. This guy + Purphoros, God of the Forge is a really easy win. Typically, with this type of card, it says "another target permanent" like Oblivion Ring, but this one does not, allowing you to have Hostage Taker target itself, an infinite amount of times in a single turn.
Even without being able to do this, it seems like a solid card to play in this deck.
Scuttlebutt is that they're going to change how Exile works so that a card can't Exile itself with an ETB because R&D is unable to make certain cards because of the necessary text of "another permanent" in other languages. My guess is German. The translation of rules to German is has been a headache for R&D because of how long words get; in fact, it's what made R&D decide that the Theros Gods would be Gods. God was the only word that could fit on a German Legendary Enchantment Creature. Look at the German line on Erebos. There's a hardcap on how small they'll make the text so that's why we got Gods instead of Spirits or something else.
I'm personally only interested in Herald of Seven Servants and Ruin Raider. I just have no clue what to cut, my Marchesa feels 'complete' aside from buying ABUR Duals or something. There are a few other cards I'd like to test but they're $20+ for me and I'm not willing to shell out for that as a test card.
Aegriah's Marauders seems like it could replace Flayer of the Hatebound but damn do I like Flayer's reach when I got a sac outlet and can proceed to grind people out of the game.
Vindictive Lich is good and I definitely recommend cutting Treasure Keeper if your lists feel that this new card is better.
Also, I have some questions on a card that some of you may run. That card is Chasm Skulker.
How good is it in your lists? I'm thinking of trying out a very similar card in Hangarback Walker but with a few key differences. The reason I was thinking about it is because Genesis Chamber is actually quite strong in the affinity build.
A) You don't get a "free" add-on +1/+1 counter in your draw steps to go with the counter from dethrone. You also don't get counters for drawing cards
B) However, the tokens are flying thopter artifacts and you do get modular synergy. It also on average costs 1cmc less.
C) Unlike Chasm Skulker, when this thing dies it doesn't come back.
It is very likely that I'm cutting one of my six drops for this card if it is worthy of inclusion.
I like Chasm Skulker, he does for my aggro version; not sure how he'd do for your combo version. I want to go wide as soon as possible, as that when I swing with a Dethrone trigger, my force's power multiplies very quickly. After all, if he dies as a 5/5, I get 4 1/1s with Islandwalk that quickly double in power. That being said, I cut him because I was making room to test another 3 drop and I haven't noticed his absence. I'm sure there are cards that you've cut or if you haven't drawn in a while that you ask yourself 'Man, why haven't they shown up?' Chasm Skulker, on the face, looks like something we want but in practice isn't worth including.
So what do you all think about Shifting Shadow? Seems like a nice card for this deck as it gives haste and card advantage and a "sac outlet" to reuse etb triggers. It has the usual problems that auras have, can be an easy 2-for-1, but it's cheap and has so much potential!
I thought your find here is very clever, so I went through my list looking for a cut when I saw that I already run Deathrender. Deathrender, is expensive, I consider it to be one of my 6 drops but it does a similar job than Shifting Shadow. Even with double the cost and a more vulnerable type (Artifact vs Enchantment), I like Deathrender more. While its great that Shifting Shadow digs for another threat while Deathrender requires you to have one in hand, I think there's too much Creature removal and you've incentivized someone to 2-for-1 you.
I think it's funny, definitely playable but with the antagonistic approach Marchesa has at the table, you can't run cute cards because the table is out to disrupt you.
Yeah, I thought that he is good. I currently have Treasure Keeper as my 4 drop Card Advantage slot. This guy gives us 3 cards plus 5 life loss instead of Keeper's single card that costs 3 or less. Being 3B makes him easy to cast too.
There's a few factors, the primary one is price of the card. It's currently $12USD and that's after a massive drop.
The second is that we don't have time to use Kalitas' Activated Ability to get +1/+1 Counters. I barely feel like Attrition is a good deal for me, because most of the time when I sacrifice something I want it to be free. If I'm hesitant to spend 1 mana on an outright kill, it is harder to justify spending 3 mana to just make Kalitas get bigger by two. Hell, I don't use Flesh Carver who is another decent sac engine that brings benefits post-Wrath because I don't have time to spend 2 mana on a Sac Engine.
When you see that, you also want to maybe put in more Vampires and/or Zombies even if Kalitas in theory brings her own entourage. Though I'm certain some people can overcome that urge, not everyone can. The good news is that a lot of Marchesa's cards are incidentally Vampires or Zombies, so there shouldn't be too much of a tribal angle. The need to put in more Zombies and Vampires could turn people away otherwise she "isn't good enough".
The last factor is that despite how good Kalitas is, I don't have room for her. My four drops are either part of a combo, an oppressive engine, massive pump or card advantage engines. These are cards that are going to outright win me the game if left unanswered. Meanwhile, Kalitas is just a 3/4 with Lifelink (which is solid, there's lots of times when I died because I dipped too low). I have one meta-call and that's Aura Thief because Pillowfort Enchantments like Propaganda pump the brakes too much, plus other just general broken goodies that tend to exist. Off of the top of my head, Purphoros, God of the Forge, Bloodchief Ascension, Grave Betrayal and so much more. I am unable to fight past some of these because they kill the table too quickly or slam down a lock too well.
With all of these factors, if you only have a single meta call and you find that the entire meta is rampant with Graveyard Recursion. You frequently sit down across from an entire Meren Pod, then sure. It makes sense to choose Kalitas' GY hate over Aura Thief's Enchantments but the thing is I'm Grixis. I can kill Creatures, it's handling Enchantments that's the problem for me.
We're a low-to-the-ground aggro deck, if it costs 6 it should be winning if left unanswered. If you want a Vampire that hates on Creatures, gets +1/+1 Counters then Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet's price should drop this September.
I just realized that it is strictly better than Crumbling Necropolis, which I do run. At the very minimum, it Scrys off of casting Marchesa. Perhaps I should get it as well, or maybe cut Necropolis for a Basic. I've had some hairy games where I've lacked a Swamp that turns on a lot of my Lands. But hey, that's the problem with 3 color 'classic' Aggro.
I don't run enough of one Creature type to justify Kindred Discovery. While the ETB and Attack triggers are nice, my Enchantment draw is Dark Prophecy, as it does exactly what an Aggro Marchesa wants: lowers my life and draws me cards. This in addition to Phyrexian Arena, Rhystic Study and Necropotence. All 3 drops, perfect to start the game off with and then use Marchesa. A 5 drop, on the other hand, has to be extraodrinary.
I did a count for Path of Ancestry and while I like that it gives mana we need due to our horrendous situation for fixing, it still ETBTs and doesn't deal damage to ourselves or protects Marchesa.
So if you have a +1/+1 counter on a creature with embalm and it goes to the graveyard then you trigger embalm when the creature hit the graveyard do you get past the exile with marchesa or does triggering embalm take priority on the stack?
Just wondering is it possible to get past the embalm rules with Marchesa.
I don't know what you're saying.
Embalm is an Activated Ability that Exiles the Creature from the Graveyard to make a token. There is no 'trigger'. It is the same with Eternalize.
If the Embalm/Eternalize Creature hits the yard with a +1/+1 Counter, it is a Creature that has Marchesa's trigger on it. If you Eternalized or Embalmed the Creature, it's a token and tokens cease to exist if they leave the Battlefield.
I've cut Living Death because I've found that it causes someone to combo out and depending on who cast it, that gives priority to other players resolving their silly stuff first. So its either a dead draw or has someone combo off and considering I only run two non-combat step combo (one of which is a 3 card combo), it's usually not me.
I've cut battledriver but still keeping Olivia. Partly due to CMC but also because she has Evasion. She protects Marchesa and when you do need Haste she can give it. There have been times where people have tried to Wrath me out but couldn't because of Marchesa having +1/+1s.
Also, she's great with Glen Alendra Archmage to keep the Counters going. Plus with a Grim Haruspex you can filter through cards by saving guys, drawing and discarding the chaff to keep this up during each players turn. It gets sillier if you have some sort of value engine out like Aetherworks Marvel or Grimgrin, Corpse-Born.
I actually like Grenzo's Ruffians. It's a way to hurt the rest of the table while you're not swinging at them. As entertaining as it is to see various people ping themselves or attack each other just to make sure that they're not the highest life total when it gets to my turn, this is an added clock. Sometimes there's a player that's really low but you don't have time to kill them off because you're fighting the other players. Then they end up messing up your plans. With the Ruffians, they could be killed off while you don't even focus them and if you go wide enough that +3/+3.
I like them, I'm just not sure I have room or want to make room. The 4 drops are more crowded in my build by virtue of having less of them and I don't want to cut a 3 drop to increase my average CMC.
Thoughts? Very very high on the curve, but does damm near everything we want. Tutoring all day long. Taking us off the throne. Sac outlet. And brings the beef.
Though, might only find it's way into a budget/ casual build...
Too expensive; my curve caps out at 6. Marchesa doesn't play to the long game.
Out of frustration with the lack of card draw, I recently put in Dark Prophecy in my Marchesa.
PSA: Put Dark Prophecy in your decks.
Holy *****, the continual card draw and life loss means we're always attacking off of the Throne and never running out of gas. It also lets you run more ways to gain life, but I already use Gray Merchant of Asphodel and Whip of Erebos; Dark Prophecy feeds more into that. It's affordable, doesn't draw hate like Necropotence yet is as powerful without the drawbacks.
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
Aegriah's Marauders seems like it could replace Flayer of the Hatebound but damn do I like Flayer's reach when I got a sac outlet and can proceed to grind people out of the game.
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
I thought your find here is very clever, so I went through my list looking for a cut when I saw that I already run Deathrender. Deathrender, is expensive, I consider it to be one of my 6 drops but it does a similar job than Shifting Shadow. Even with double the cost and a more vulnerable type (Artifact vs Enchantment), I like Deathrender more. While its great that Shifting Shadow digs for another threat while Deathrender requires you to have one in hand, I think there's too much Creature removal and you've incentivized someone to 2-for-1 you.
I think it's funny, definitely playable but with the antagonistic approach Marchesa has at the table, you can't run cute cards because the table is out to disrupt you.
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
The second is that we don't have time to use Kalitas' Activated Ability to get +1/+1 Counters. I barely feel like Attrition is a good deal for me, because most of the time when I sacrifice something I want it to be free. If I'm hesitant to spend 1 mana on an outright kill, it is harder to justify spending 3 mana to just make Kalitas get bigger by two. Hell, I don't use Flesh Carver who is another decent sac engine that brings benefits post-Wrath because I don't have time to spend 2 mana on a Sac Engine.
When you see that, you also want to maybe put in more Vampires and/or Zombies even if Kalitas in theory brings her own entourage. Though I'm certain some people can overcome that urge, not everyone can. The good news is that a lot of Marchesa's cards are incidentally Vampires or Zombies, so there shouldn't be too much of a tribal angle. The need to put in more Zombies and Vampires could turn people away otherwise she "isn't good enough".
The last factor is that despite how good Kalitas is, I don't have room for her. My four drops are either part of a combo, an oppressive engine, massive pump or card advantage engines. These are cards that are going to outright win me the game if left unanswered. Meanwhile, Kalitas is just a 3/4 with Lifelink (which is solid, there's lots of times when I died because I dipped too low). I have one meta-call and that's Aura Thief because Pillowfort Enchantments like Propaganda pump the brakes too much, plus other just general broken goodies that tend to exist. Off of the top of my head, Purphoros, God of the Forge, Bloodchief Ascension, Grave Betrayal and so much more. I am unable to fight past some of these because they kill the table too quickly or slam down a lock too well.
With all of these factors, if you only have a single meta call and you find that the entire meta is rampant with Graveyard Recursion. You frequently sit down across from an entire Meren Pod, then sure. It makes sense to choose Kalitas' GY hate over Aura Thief's Enchantments but the thing is I'm Grixis. I can kill Creatures, it's handling Enchantments that's the problem for me.
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
We're a low-to-the-ground aggro deck, if it costs 6 it should be winning if left unanswered. If you want a Vampire that hates on Creatures, gets +1/+1 Counters then Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet's price should drop this September.
For comparison, Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and Flayer of the Hatebound are my 6 drops and those definitely win me the game if no one deals with them.
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
I did a count for Path of Ancestry and while I like that it gives mana we need due to our horrendous situation for fixing, it still ETBTs and doesn't deal damage to ourselves or protects Marchesa.
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
Embalm is an Activated Ability that Exiles the Creature from the Graveyard to make a token. There is no 'trigger'. It is the same with Eternalize.
If the Embalm/Eternalize Creature hits the yard with a +1/+1 Counter, it is a Creature that has Marchesa's trigger on it. If you Eternalized or Embalmed the Creature, it's a token and tokens cease to exist if they leave the Battlefield.
So what are you really asking?
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
Could be interesting, especially if you're trying to push a Tribal angle.
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
Also, she's great with Glen Alendra Archmage to keep the Counters going. Plus with a Grim Haruspex you can filter through cards by saving guys, drawing and discarding the chaff to keep this up during each players turn. It gets sillier if you have some sort of value engine out like Aetherworks Marvel or Grimgrin, Corpse-Born.
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
I like them, I'm just not sure I have room or want to make room. The 4 drops are more crowded in my build by virtue of having less of them and I don't want to cut a 3 drop to increase my average CMC.
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
PSA: Put Dark Prophecy in your decks.
Holy *****, the continual card draw and life loss means we're always attacking off of the Throne and never running out of gas. It also lets you run more ways to gain life, but I already use Gray Merchant of Asphodel and Whip of Erebos; Dark Prophecy feeds more into that. It's affordable, doesn't draw hate like Necropotence yet is as powerful without the drawbacks.
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs