I started looking into Whispers because I was working on a BUG Shadow list splashing red for TBR and K-Command (I posted the first rough list a couple pages ago) that was a bit better at getting delirium. I didn't go all the way to Thought Scour because I found that all I really needed was more instants that weren't removal, so I was playing Opt. I could see Scour being the better choice if you're really trying to land a turn 2 Whispers, though. The mana base felt really shaky, much moreso than the normal 5c version, because you're equally dependent on blue and green and that makes 1 hand lands very difficult to navigate. Maybe a delirium-focused, true BUG version is the way to build that color combination? I think it's as hard to leave TBR behind as it is Stubborn Denial, though. :/
Another reason I got onto Whispers was some discussion on the Jund boards about Todd Stevens not liking Liliana of the Veil against true control decks because they'll often have more cards in hand than we will after she's played and activated, which I think is even more true for this deck than traditional Jund. With that in mind, I was looking for something that could attack an opponent's hand, ideally snipe multiple cards, and not affect my own resources.
Stubborn Denial has been a very hard card to give up, and I've also really been missing Disdainful Stroke. I'm looking to play in the Modern Classic at the SCG event in King of Prussia at the end of the month and am finding it impossible to settle on a list.
Maybe I'll see you there.
I honestly have been playing every flavor of GBx deciding what to play.
My FNM has been very small lately, I think it's a combination of the season holiday and the arctic blast hitting the north east.
I wasn't satisfied with my testing with Reid's list due to the decks I played
Elves
Game 1 I beat elves, had I lost the die roll I don't think I would have won. Game 2 I'm on the backfoot and lose, I think on the play I win. Game 3, I keep a shaky opener that I don't think I would have kept on the draw. He mulls to 6, I take his only mana dork, and noticed he sided in some really awful cards, some kind of junk artifact thats 3 mana and scries or draws an extra card, and some 2 mana artifact that damage me for every elf he has tapped. I just squeeze him on mana and pressure with 2 Shadows. By the time he has mana he's blocking unprofitably and just dies. He was trying to beat me on CA, all I had to do was put in a situation where he had to keep blocking unprofitably.
Jank draft deck
Game 2 I beat some woman who must be new to modern, she's playing a draft deck and I just roll her. I felt bad for her because it obviously wasn't fun. It was basically a free win
Mono Black 8rack
The guy who plays this deck is nice, but it isn't a good deck he plays but it really screws over anything midrange. If this deck doesn't draw lingering souls it just folds, this deck isn't prepared whatsoever for what he plays. I don't consider this a real deck you'd see outside of like the first round of a real tournament.
Cheerios
Game 1 The guy draws like 2 paladins and 2 Srams when I kept getting rid of them. Was pretty annoyed. I started shuffling his deck after seeing this.
Game 2 Grim just dominates him. I drop 2 of them while always keeping removal ready and just dig for answers and throw away my threats
Game 3 I keep a hand I wouldn't keep on the draw. Got pretty scary. I land two early big Shadows. When I got to the point he had to chump a combo piece I felt good. Won it but it was stressful.
The deck does feel good. Grim won 3 games by himself. I still think he sucks in Abzan but the extra 2x threats has been a nice welcome. I was fine with 2x LOTVs, saw her just enough.
Practiced against a guy who wanted to test the new Merfolks out, he beat me 4-1, felt brutal.
I'm not playing any board-wipes, I wonder if I should consider at least 1. Trying to take the Reid Duke philosophy here.
Bro, after reading Reid's article yesterday, I was disappointed it wasn't jund. But I went back again and re-read it after my disappointment with several versions of Abzan
I played a list similar to Reid's, except I played 2x Grims, cut 1x LOTV for tarfire, and played 1x dismember over the terminate
Pretty much wrecked everyone today except the Jeskai Breach deck (which obliterated me).
I wasn't loving how complicated the 5 mana base was becoming; I think there's some merit to what Reid says, it should mainly be a 3 color deck with the white splash for lingering souls, since the deck isn't capable of winning without that element of grind. Without worrying about fetching for needed Stubs or Izzet Staticasters I could usually just fetch for the overgrown/stomping ground package and be fine.
I did take a page out of spooly's page and play Hazoret, mainly because I don't want Ranger to be null and void if the shrine gets blown up.
Beat up on Eldrazi & Taxes so hard, it was honestly almost embarrassing
Vizier Elves, in a game 1 I had no business winning mulling to 5 with grim digging for threats and putting him on the backfoot
Whir Lantern
Tokens with a blue splash
Mono White Taxes. Stripped their hand bad. Game 2 they had their hand stripped, vial blown up and stuck on 1 mana
some other bank
I was thoroughly impressed though, especially beating decks like elves and tokens with no boardwipes in the 75.
Reid is certainly right, the deck doesn't grind well but it's openings are pretty crazy, I had some powerful mulls to 5.
I'm not SUPER happy about the 1x tarfire but it was relevant in several games, mainly to turn traverse on and help grim.
This is honestly the first time I've liked Grim Flayer, it's been absolute garbage whenever I play it in Abzan. The deck feels a little smoother with 10 threats but I'm going to keep testing.
Yeah, would've been useful if you at least linked to it so people know what you're talking about..
It's on Starcity and you have to be a premium member to see the article.
He basically just says he's giving up on fair decks and that he doesn't even want to touch Shadow decks because people have figured it out and it doesn't get free wins anymore. I know he got 1st place with it on something months ago so he's not completely salty. Him and Duke are THE GBx players so it was a disappointing read
Oh no, better sell my deck and play Tron because one pro player is upset about not getting free wins anymore.
Come on man - this deck is exactly what we need to beat unfair big mana decks whilst still being able to put up more than a decent fight against the fair ones. Stick with it.
I never said I agree
I'm sticking with it, I'm just not used to doing so poorly
Yeah, would've been useful if you at least linked to it so people know what you're talking about..
It's on Starcity and you have to be a premium member to see the article.
He basically just says he's giving up on fair decks and that he doesn't even want to touch Shadow decks because people have figured it out and it doesn't get free wins anymore. I know he got 1st place with it on something months ago so he's not completely salty. Him and Duke are THE GBx players so it was a disappointing read
I've been playing discard decks for years, I feel incredibly comfortable with that aspect
It's definitely the tight-rope aspect, and the fetching/life loss for sure.
Deck is tough for sure, I'm used to catching on to a deck after two weeks or so. I'm a little bummed by my lack of progress, and performing poorly against burn is one my hugest fears, I've never gone to an IQ or PPTQ and avoided this matchup.
Brad Nelsons new article was a huge bummer, too.
The deck is good, I'm just really struggling to play it well after years of experience with midrange decks in modern
I'm not doing well with this deck. Burn has been difficult for me to navigate in general with shadow decks
I lost tonight with my opponent at 1, I couldn't get that third land to cast temur and hold up stub.
So, I've done poorly 3 out of 4 nights. Kinda bummed out, I'm really not catching on to this deck compared to most midrange decks. I still lack experience in grixis shadow, too.
Ugh. Frustrating night. Game 1 I played mono white taxes. Games 1 and 2, three times between both games he topdecked a path immediately after I discarded him and exposed my lone threat. I was very frustrated, since I thought he kept really poor opening hands. He kept a bad hand game 1 based off of Crusader.
Game 2 I lost against some guy newish to modern, he played spreading seas on my white land while I had lingering souls and Ranger in my hand. I was definitely tilted internally, it's not a card played at all in delver, I wouldn't have exposed it so soon otherwise.
I just dropped after that, felt pretty salty losing to DnT based almost entirely from variance. The spreading seas felt like a scrubby thing that supremely rewarded him, but I'm quite bitter about it.
Oh, I completely agree. Monday I won a game 3 I had no business winning, I beat a merfolk player who had 3 of 4 creatures on board with island walk and won with 1 life thanks to making a 12/12 shadow double-striker.
I want to see where 5 color shadow leads to with the grinders is what I'm saying.
I think I'll probably just concede that you're right.
How are you feeling about a lot of shadow decks in general replacing the 1x copy of terminate with dismember?
If the 3x LOTV, 2x Stubs and 2x Temur are untouchable it doesn't look like there's any wiggle room for the deck except debating on if you want to play 4/push 1/Decay.
I certainly won't be upset if people find out 2x Hazorets can replace the lingering souls plan and free up 3x spots in the sideboard but I don't see that happening. I won't complain if it does though
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Maybe I'll see you there.
I honestly have been playing every flavor of GBx deciding what to play.
DSJ has a better game 1 against an open field and has more explosive, consistent early game than the other Shadow/GBx decks.
Yeah, man, that'd be nice to read. Share your sideboard plans too
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Marsh Flats
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Blood Crypt
1x Stomping Ground
1x Godless Shrine
1x Swamp
1x Forest
Creature (14)
4x Death's Shadow
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Grim Flayer
4x Street Wraith
4x Mishra's Bauble
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Thoughtseize
4x Fatal Push
1x Tarfire
4x Traverse the Ulvenwald
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Terminate
2x Temur Battle Rage
1x Dismember
2x Liliana of the Veil
3x Lingering Souls
1x Hazoret the Fervent
2x Collective Brutality
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Fulminator Mage
2x Ancient Grudge
My FNM has been very small lately, I think it's a combination of the season holiday and the arctic blast hitting the north east.
I wasn't satisfied with my testing with Reid's list due to the decks I played
Elves
Game 1 I beat elves, had I lost the die roll I don't think I would have won. Game 2 I'm on the backfoot and lose, I think on the play I win. Game 3, I keep a shaky opener that I don't think I would have kept on the draw. He mulls to 6, I take his only mana dork, and noticed he sided in some really awful cards, some kind of junk artifact thats 3 mana and scries or draws an extra card, and some 2 mana artifact that damage me for every elf he has tapped. I just squeeze him on mana and pressure with 2 Shadows. By the time he has mana he's blocking unprofitably and just dies. He was trying to beat me on CA, all I had to do was put in a situation where he had to keep blocking unprofitably.
Jank draft deck
Game 2 I beat some woman who must be new to modern, she's playing a draft deck and I just roll her. I felt bad for her because it obviously wasn't fun. It was basically a free win
Mono Black 8rack
The guy who plays this deck is nice, but it isn't a good deck he plays but it really screws over anything midrange. If this deck doesn't draw lingering souls it just folds, this deck isn't prepared whatsoever for what he plays. I don't consider this a real deck you'd see outside of like the first round of a real tournament.
Cheerios
Game 1 The guy draws like 2 paladins and 2 Srams when I kept getting rid of them. Was pretty annoyed. I started shuffling his deck after seeing this.
Game 2 Grim just dominates him. I drop 2 of them while always keeping removal ready and just dig for answers and throw away my threats
Game 3 I keep a hand I wouldn't keep on the draw. Got pretty scary. I land two early big Shadows. When I got to the point he had to chump a combo piece I felt good. Won it but it was stressful.
The deck does feel good. Grim won 3 games by himself. I still think he sucks in Abzan but the extra 2x threats has been a nice welcome. I was fine with 2x LOTVs, saw her just enough.
Practiced against a guy who wanted to test the new Merfolks out, he beat me 4-1, felt brutal.
I'm not playing any board-wipes, I wonder if I should consider at least 1. Trying to take the Reid Duke philosophy here.
I played a list similar to Reid's, except I played 2x Grims, cut 1x LOTV for tarfire, and played 1x dismember over the terminate
Pretty much wrecked everyone today except the Jeskai Breach deck (which obliterated me).
I wasn't loving how complicated the 5 mana base was becoming; I think there's some merit to what Reid says, it should mainly be a 3 color deck with the white splash for lingering souls, since the deck isn't capable of winning without that element of grind. Without worrying about fetching for needed Stubs or Izzet Staticasters I could usually just fetch for the overgrown/stomping ground package and be fine.
I did take a page out of spooly's page and play Hazoret, mainly because I don't want Ranger to be null and void if the shrine gets blown up.
Beat up on Eldrazi & Taxes so hard, it was honestly almost embarrassing
Vizier Elves, in a game 1 I had no business winning mulling to 5 with grim digging for threats and putting him on the backfoot
Whir Lantern
Tokens with a blue splash
Mono White Taxes. Stripped their hand bad. Game 2 they had their hand stripped, vial blown up and stuck on 1 mana
some other bank
I was thoroughly impressed though, especially beating decks like elves and tokens with no boardwipes in the 75.
Reid is certainly right, the deck doesn't grind well but it's openings are pretty crazy, I had some powerful mulls to 5.
I'm not SUPER happy about the 1x tarfire but it was relevant in several games, mainly to turn traverse on and help grim.
This is honestly the first time I've liked Grim Flayer, it's been absolute garbage whenever I play it in Abzan. The deck feels a little smoother with 10 threats but I'm going to keep testing.
I never said I agree
I'm sticking with it, I'm just not used to doing so poorly
It's on Starcity and you have to be a premium member to see the article.
He basically just says he's giving up on fair decks and that he doesn't even want to touch Shadow decks because people have figured it out and it doesn't get free wins anymore. I know he got 1st place with it on something months ago so he's not completely salty. Him and Duke are THE GBx players so it was a disappointing read
It's definitely the tight-rope aspect, and the fetching/life loss for sure.
Deck is tough for sure, I'm used to catching on to a deck after two weeks or so. I'm a little bummed by my lack of progress, and performing poorly against burn is one my hugest fears, I've never gone to an IQ or PPTQ and avoided this matchup.
Brad Nelsons new article was a huge bummer, too.
The deck is good, I'm just really struggling to play it well after years of experience with midrange decks in modern
I lost tonight with my opponent at 1, I couldn't get that third land to cast temur and hold up stub.
So, I've done poorly 3 out of 4 nights. Kinda bummed out, I'm really not catching on to this deck compared to most midrange decks. I still lack experience in grixis shadow, too.
I do think Hazoret replacing Ranger may be a great idea, I have one in the mail right now.
Once you actually play your grindy matchups tell us how it goes.
Game 2 I lost against some guy newish to modern, he played spreading seas on my white land while I had lingering souls and Ranger in my hand. I was definitely tilted internally, it's not a card played at all in delver, I wouldn't have exposed it so soon otherwise.
I just dropped after that, felt pretty salty losing to DnT based almost entirely from variance. The spreading seas felt like a scrubby thing that supremely rewarded him, but I'm quite bitter about it.
I want to see where 5 color shadow leads to with the grinders is what I'm saying.
It actually looks like Spoolys list really caught a lot of attention, for a bit we were seeing similar 5-0's on mttgoldfish.
How come Andersen and Spicklemire's build didn't catch on? They ran the 4x push, 1x decay, 2x terminate, 1x dismember, 3x stubborn denial package
Why did everyone decide not to play those lists despite those two having such good shows in standings and on stream?
I'm not disputing temur battle rage and it's power
Some kind of enchantment deck that runs multiple RIPs, Blood Moons and Mana dorks to make LOTV and souls bad.
And then helplessly losing to that mardu deck that I've only seen in paper once.
How are you feeling about a lot of shadow decks in general replacing the 1x copy of terminate with dismember?
If the 3x LOTV, 2x Stubs and 2x Temur are untouchable it doesn't look like there's any wiggle room for the deck except debating on if you want to play 4/push 1/Decay.
I certainly won't be upset if people find out 2x Hazorets can replace the lingering souls plan and free up 3x spots in the sideboard but I don't see that happening. I won't complain if it does though