One top 8 doesn't make me feel warm or fuzzy. It makes me think that guy had to get lucky and grind like a champ just to get there. I don't know what deck I can say right now that I want to sit across. Tron maybe? Storm? I seem to be alright against the UR Thing/Phoenix decks. I honestly couldn't tell you right now.
I'm glad you're being logical. Some people definitely say, "but it was in the top 8, it's fine, you're overreacting". The real question is---what deck are we happy to play? Humans---no, not really. Spirits--nope. Tron? Nah. Dredge---definitely not.
Like, I get a fair deck has a grind to it, but there's no longer matchups where I'm like, "sweet, I feel good about my hand and this matchup".
Jund doesn't know what it wants to do. Blue can also rip it's deck with cantrips (Visions, Thought Scour, Azcanta, etc). These other new waves of combo aggro and midrange plays faithless looting, getting rid of dead cards and reloading. That saying of Jund having the best topdeck is definitely dead. That stopped sometime around fatal push's printing, right?
Jund no longer has the right in saying, "Our topdeck is better than yours".
Tribal decks are crazy resilient now, and going either taller and wider or being evasive. Combo decks are becoming more resilient.
I actually think Grixis Shadow/4C Shadow is now the deck we should be playing if you're trying to get that midrange itch. Unfortunately the conversation is nearly non-existitent here for some reason. Grixis is actually seeing quite a bit of results in top 8s. That may be due to Humans being just another good deck instead of THE deck.
I wonder as time goes by if modern could be a format where not playing blue as a fair deck could be very difficult.
Either way, I've been jamming Shadow decks but it sucks to have no one to discuss it with.
I do like that more Jund decks have come to a consensus though, it was looking rough for a while. When a fair deck looks drastically different from one another that is usually a very bad sign to me. It's one of the reasons why I don't think I'll ever be a true UW Control/Jeskai player.
Lets even look at the new Phoenix decks. If anyone watched SCG this weekend, the way both versions ripped through it's deck with Manamorphose, Bedlam Revlar, tormenting Voices and Loot was amazing. When you get to see that many cards in a deck you see a lot of consistency. It doesn't hurt that you get to even use some of those cards after they're discarded.
Jund will remain popular because it's a style people like...but if you guys pay attention to modern, you can clearly see this deck is being left behind as obsolete. I REALLY, REALLY want to be wrong. I'm waiting for Jund to receive just a few cards to push it over the edge, as that can easily happen. What we need now is not better removal, we need either some kind of broken creature or spell that helps rip through our deck.
Been busy brewing/playing Jund Dragons in EDH. It’s hard for me to get out of those colors. I think I’ve gotten spoiled from how powerful BRG’s individual spells can be!
Delver, I love the quick SB guide. I should know my MU’s by now but I’m kind of an on-and-off player so I forget and find myself digging through your Primer after game-one’s. That new guide will help a lot. And I wanted to echo what the other guys said. I kind of take this primer for granted until I go to most any of the other ones for other decks I play, and realize that the quality and thoroughness of yours is not the norm. I appreciate it.
Spsiegel, nice to see you being a glutton for punishment again and playing BGx. It may not be where the W’s are at, but it’s always where it’s at. I was looking at your list and was curious about something. Why Seal of Fire instead of Tarfire? I’m assuming it’s because you can ‘set it and forget it’, where it doesn’t require any mana if you use it in during some subsequent turn? Like hitting a 5-toughness creature with it and Bolt without requiring RR? I guess it’s kind of uncounterable too in some sense. But how often (besides maybe turn-1) are you going to be able to play it without using it immediately? The obvious pro I see for Tarfire is getting two card types in the yard at once with it.
Tempo reasons. I can set it, forget it. Grows Goyf. It can be a mini bolt off of a BBE cascade down the road.
Played a lot of Jund for the first time in a while
...I really wasn't super impressed with Trophy. Killing someone with it in the first 3 turns just feels AWFUL. I can see why Reid Duke declared it was just an "ok" card. Playing so extremely fair tonight felt really difficult.
But, hey, over the course of the game I've had the best results with it.
With tribal aggro being so dominant it makes sense to have more 1 drops. Big Mana is on the rise so cutting Fulminators seems like an awful idea. Graveyard is plentiful.
There's this lack of good matchups, they've gone away. Spot removal used to be so devastating to these creature decks. Combo outside of KCI and Storm is down so LOTV gets worse. Graveyard decks are very dependent on drawing the right cards.
The meta is general feels kinda weird. Nothing is super sticking out to me as what to play.
Played a lot of Jund for the first time in a while
...I really wasn't super impressed with Trophy. Killing someone with it in the first 3 turns just feels AWFUL. I can see why Reid Duke declared it was just an "ok" card. Playing so extremely fair tonight felt really difficult.
But, hey, over the course of the game I've had the best results with it.
Seriously, you're probably the best thread moderator in the modern established decks, most of them here are seriously outdated and not maintained at all.
Unfortunately that indicates that saying that Jund isn't that good seems to be more than just a subjective feeling.
Well, yah, when it comes to our deck I'm more often right, even if I come off very pessimistic. I have this whole thing foiled out so obviously I have some vested interested in some variation of GBx doing well.
Dredge being very good is rarely a good thing, it starts to kick other graveyard decks out of the meta. It also kinda makes a deck like Tron good, too. UW Control players on Facebook seem to be on a slight downtrend based off what they're saying, although that community is very enthusiastic.
Going into an open tournament, I would definitely configure a Jund list that is primarily ignoring mirror matches or midrange. Local metas may say otherwise since they're smaller.
On another note, should we really be playing Maelstrom Pulse nowadays? I was thinking about the regionals, and I saw two familiar names. The one was Jadine, who we obviously know. The other was a name I see on Facebook who's had some decent results at SCG and other events, Michael Olsen. Neither decided to play Pulse. Michael even played 1x seal of fire.
I do think with how good Tron is that it's a mistake to play less than 3x Fulminators right now. And we are in this stage where so much tribal aggro is around that MAYBE the 4th LOTV isn't as amazing. I always, always thought playing less than 4x LOTV in Jund was a mistake and it's weird to play her as a 3 of.
The new Affinity is benefiting from this meta since UW Control is down. KCI looks good, too. I wonder if 1x Grudge is a mistake?
I'm seeing a lot of Jund players on 1 or 2 surgicals, do you guys like this? I'm undecided about it. It could make sense with all the combo and the addition of Trophy.
I've always favored lean lists, and outside of a difference in 1 land base, my land bases have often looked like yours. The only time we disagree'd heavily on a land base was on a Rabblemaster list.
I do feel I'm pretty right when certain GBx archetypes are going to trend up or down or be irrelevant, usually. Sadly, this time around it just feels rough to be playing fair. We have the aggro decks going underneath, the GY stuff being degenerate, and a ton of Big Mana decks. It's stretching the 75 we're allowed to have in too many directions.
Dude every time i see you i'm starting to debate if your a lucky charm or a black cat. Usually you say something along the lines of "jund is bad switch to X Deck instead" shortly after jund rises up. Weird facts aside i do agree with some of what you said and nice seeing you again.
I'm a midrange player at heart, and even though I prefer Jund, I don't think we should be afraid to switch to different variations when one is better
Oh, I completely agree, man. I wrote that so it wasnt just me *****ing and writing a spam or troll post.
The truth is, it feels bad playing a fair deck right now. I'm personally thinking of jamming mono g tron until this ugly meta shifts. I'm a midrange player at heart so I play it reluctantly.
It does seem like a poor idea to play jund unless you have the reps. I'm pretty rusty with jund, as I took a long break and need to get reps in on mtgo.
Alyius, I saw you looking in spirits. I think I'd personally play humans, as humans is such an evergreen tribe in every set.
This is modern. It all shifts and cycles.
I wish jund could make use of looting or an impactful cantrip, as I think it's what jund is missing.
Well, with the way the meta looks, it almost seems right to replace 1x BBE with Kalitas, 2x Angers in the side. Probably 4 or 5 GY hate in the 75 that don't include Scooze.
I'm not too certain on the rest on how it should look.
I've always favored lean lists, and outside of a difference in 1 land base, my land bases have often looked like yours. The only time we disagree'd heavily on a land base was on a Rabblemaster list.
I do feel I'm pretty right when certain GBx archetypes are going to trend up or down or be irrelevant, usually. Sadly, this time around it just feels rough to be playing fair. We have the aggro decks going underneath, the GY stuff being degenerate, and a ton of Big Mana decks. It's stretching the 75 we're allowed to have in too many directions.
Hi, if the meta is that, I wouldn't bring my old little jund deck, but anyway there are my considerations:
MB:
-1 pulse +1 lily of the veil, -1 wooded +1 blooming marsh
SB:
-1 cage +1 spellbomb, -1 kalithas +1 surgical
Enjoy
Midrange decks as a whole look horribly placed, that includes Mardu, Shadow...
It's incredibly depressing how Creeping Chill is shaping the meta.
This group of people made an interesting report on the meta
Jund needs to up it's GY hate, probably play 1x Kalitas, and pack some extra hate for tribal decks. Apparently Jund's matchup report against Humans was not in our favor. I have to admit in my own experience, this is by no means a great feeling match.
I played Mono G Tron at my FNM on Monday and THAT felt more suitable to the meta (as my meta are mainly a bunch of spikes).
I do find the meta frustrating as it's making midrange kinda crappy unless you're Jadine or Reid Duke.
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I'm glad you're being logical. Some people definitely say, "but it was in the top 8, it's fine, you're overreacting". The real question is---what deck are we happy to play? Humans---no, not really. Spirits--nope. Tron? Nah. Dredge---definitely not.
Like, I get a fair deck has a grind to it, but there's no longer matchups where I'm like, "sweet, I feel good about my hand and this matchup".
Jund doesn't know what it wants to do. Blue can also rip it's deck with cantrips (Visions, Thought Scour, Azcanta, etc). These other new waves of combo aggro and midrange plays faithless looting, getting rid of dead cards and reloading. That saying of Jund having the best topdeck is definitely dead. That stopped sometime around fatal push's printing, right?
Jund no longer has the right in saying, "Our topdeck is better than yours".
Tribal decks are crazy resilient now, and going either taller and wider or being evasive. Combo decks are becoming more resilient.
I actually think Grixis Shadow/4C Shadow is now the deck we should be playing if you're trying to get that midrange itch. Unfortunately the conversation is nearly non-existitent here for some reason. Grixis is actually seeing quite a bit of results in top 8s. That may be due to Humans being just another good deck instead of THE deck.
I wonder as time goes by if modern could be a format where not playing blue as a fair deck could be very difficult.
Either way, I've been jamming Shadow decks but it sucks to have no one to discuss it with.
I do like that more Jund decks have come to a consensus though, it was looking rough for a while. When a fair deck looks drastically different from one another that is usually a very bad sign to me. It's one of the reasons why I don't think I'll ever be a true UW Control/Jeskai player.
Lets even look at the new Phoenix decks. If anyone watched SCG this weekend, the way both versions ripped through it's deck with Manamorphose, Bedlam Revlar, tormenting Voices and Loot was amazing. When you get to see that many cards in a deck you see a lot of consistency. It doesn't hurt that you get to even use some of those cards after they're discarded.
Jund will remain popular because it's a style people like...but if you guys pay attention to modern, you can clearly see this deck is being left behind as obsolete. I REALLY, REALLY want to be wrong. I'm waiting for Jund to receive just a few cards to push it over the edge, as that can easily happen. What we need now is not better removal, we need either some kind of broken creature or spell that helps rip through our deck.
Rabblemaster was decent for a time because push was everywhere and creature aggro was suffering.
Tempo reasons. I can set it, forget it. Grows Goyf. It can be a mini bolt off of a BBE cascade down the road.
3x Bloodstained Mire
1x Wooded Foothills
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Stomping Ground
1x Blood Crypt
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
1x Twilight Mire
3x Raging Ravine
1x Treetop Village
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Mountain
3x Dark Confidant
3x Scavenging Ooze
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3x Bloodbraid Elf
Spells
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Fatal Push
1x Seal of Fire
3x Assassin's Trophy
1x Kolaghan's Command
Planeswalkers
3x Liliana of the Veil
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Grim Lavamancer
2x Anger of the Gods
3x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Ancient Grudge
2x Collective Brutality
1x Angrath, the Flame-Chained
3x Fulminator Mage
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
With tribal aggro being so dominant it makes sense to have more 1 drops. Big Mana is on the rise so cutting Fulminators seems like an awful idea. Graveyard is plentiful.
There's this lack of good matchups, they've gone away. Spot removal used to be so devastating to these creature decks. Combo outside of KCI and Storm is down so LOTV gets worse. Graveyard decks are very dependent on drawing the right cards.
The meta is general feels kinda weird. Nothing is super sticking out to me as what to play.
...I really wasn't super impressed with Trophy. Killing someone with it in the first 3 turns just feels AWFUL. I can see why Reid Duke declared it was just an "ok" card. Playing so extremely fair tonight felt really difficult.
But, hey, over the course of the game I've had the best results with it.
Well, yah, when it comes to our deck I'm more often right, even if I come off very pessimistic. I have this whole thing foiled out so obviously I have some vested interested in some variation of GBx doing well.
Dredge being very good is rarely a good thing, it starts to kick other graveyard decks out of the meta. It also kinda makes a deck like Tron good, too. UW Control players on Facebook seem to be on a slight downtrend based off what they're saying, although that community is very enthusiastic.
Going into an open tournament, I would definitely configure a Jund list that is primarily ignoring mirror matches or midrange. Local metas may say otherwise since they're smaller.
On another note, should we really be playing Maelstrom Pulse nowadays? I was thinking about the regionals, and I saw two familiar names. The one was Jadine, who we obviously know. The other was a name I see on Facebook who's had some decent results at SCG and other events, Michael Olsen. Neither decided to play Pulse. Michael even played 1x seal of fire.
I do think with how good Tron is that it's a mistake to play less than 3x Fulminators right now. And we are in this stage where so much tribal aggro is around that MAYBE the 4th LOTV isn't as amazing. I always, always thought playing less than 4x LOTV in Jund was a mistake and it's weird to play her as a 3 of.
The new Affinity is benefiting from this meta since UW Control is down. KCI looks good, too. I wonder if 1x Grudge is a mistake?
I'm seeing a lot of Jund players on 1 or 2 surgicals, do you guys like this? I'm undecided about it. It could make sense with all the combo and the addition of Trophy.
I'm a midrange player at heart, and even though I prefer Jund, I don't think we should be afraid to switch to different variations when one is better
The truth is, it feels bad playing a fair deck right now. I'm personally thinking of jamming mono g tron until this ugly meta shifts. I'm a midrange player at heart so I play it reluctantly.
It does seem like a poor idea to play jund unless you have the reps. I'm pretty rusty with jund, as I took a long break and need to get reps in on mtgo.
Alyius, I saw you looking in spirits. I think I'd personally play humans, as humans is such an evergreen tribe in every set.
This is modern. It all shifts and cycles.
I wish jund could make use of looting or an impactful cantrip, as I think it's what jund is missing.
Definitely 4 minimum going into an unknown tournament/meta/mtgo.
I'm not too certain on the rest on how it should look.
I do feel I'm pretty right when certain GBx archetypes are going to trend up or down or be irrelevant, usually. Sadly, this time around it just feels rough to be playing fair. We have the aggro decks going underneath, the GY stuff being degenerate, and a ton of Big Mana decks. It's stretching the 75 we're allowed to have in too many directions.
Midrange decks as a whole look horribly placed, that includes Mardu, Shadow...
It's incredibly depressing how Creeping Chill is shaping the meta.
This group of people made an interesting report on the meta
https://www.reddit.com/r/ModernMagic/comments/9xkdzi/modern_the_modern_meta_after_gp_atlanta/
Jund needs to up it's GY hate, probably play 1x Kalitas, and pack some extra hate for tribal decks. Apparently Jund's matchup report against Humans was not in our favor. I have to admit in my own experience, this is by no means a great feeling match.
I played Mono G Tron at my FNM on Monday and THAT felt more suitable to the meta (as my meta are mainly a bunch of spikes).
I do find the meta frustrating as it's making midrange kinda crappy unless you're Jadine or Reid Duke.