Running a map and glimmers instead of more cloudpost reduces the chances that the post player will end up with 4+ clouds in the end, depending how the shuffle rng turned out at 450 cards. for the post player its totally fine to pick a glimmer instead of a cloud to get more locust and some extra life totally doesnt hurt.
getting 3/4 posts at 360 is just a guess, but i can totally see another player either hatepicking a post later in the draft after he passed the first 3 or trying to get some posts in the early as well. running only 2 posts in your deck comes with basically no drawback and still some payoff.
I wouldn't run them if I only got two of them. They're colorless sources that come into play tapped.
EDIT: I do think Glimmerposts are somewhat reasonable. I don't think I'd play only 2 though.
My decision to cut duals was criticized (I've since swapped the 3 color Obelisks and the creatures like Helionaut for the Signets) for making multicolor decks worse. Using that same reasoning I wouldn't dilute my deck's mana base in the vain hope of getting 2 extra colorless mana. I'd do it if I had a reasonable chance of having three on the field, which would require 5-6 pieces in a deck.
Off color Signets and bouncelands are higher up on the pick order than having 2 cloudposts in your deck.
It's one thing to cut swamps for a Haunted Fengraf or Desert, or for the 5-6 Cloudposts you got to draft. But not for just two.
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Something I have to remind myself is that if I put a fun card in the cube but it's a bad card and no one ever puts it in their decks, then it ceases to be a fun card because it will never see any play.
Hrm. That's a really good point Al. I don't like those cards all that much, because they get all the rule-breaking of Cloudpost with none of the immediate "oh, but sure, that makes sense" of the Locus. Cloudpost is a famously powerful common that has a certain amount of "splashiness" to it that makes it appealing outside of its actual power in gameplay (kind of like Brainstorm, but actually possibly good). Those, on the other hand, are famously fine-to-slightly-undervalued cards that people would probably play in a proper ramp strategy, but that they wouldn't take be happy about grabbing. The original version of this was Squadron Hawk, which is probably more comparable in terms of power level but a bit more appealing from a "history of the game" perspective. But I agree completely that they seem like much more compelling ramp payoffs than a lot of the other options. If I were to run it, I'd probably be tempted to run fewer copies of these less exciting cards that only really work if you're doing the deck. I'll reflect on this option some more.
Self-Assembler can fetch other self-assembler type creatures. In Pauper there is a 5 mana one with improvise, and there is a 3 mana one that taps to pump a self assembler. So you could play them singleton and you'd just get a neat pair of creatures. If you ran Mishra's Factory there would be some cool synergy.
The easy way out if you still want to run Tron is to run singleton copies of each Tron land. And each of these comes with 2 extra copies of the land. When you draft Tower you'll get permission to run 2 more copies of Tower in your deck.
I'd go for all three Tron Pieces if I could be guaranteed a benefit from it. I'd also consider hate drafting one and not grabbing the rest Monopoly style.
That seems even more icky than breaking singleton, but it does seem like the cleanest way to do it.
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This seems like a basic question, but what is the best way to team draft? So both players on a team sit next to each other and draft their packs individually but in a coordinated manner.
Then when it comes to gameplay, what rules? Should players share life totals? How does turn order go?
I utterly hate free-for-all games, even going out of my way sometimes to intentionally kingmake/attack one player and drag him down with me just to demonstrate how they're ruled entirely by gentleman's agreement and politics, not the actual game itself. As I'm doing this I like to say things like, "Well, if I make my win condition someone's else's win condition, then I have a higher chance of winning." Or, "I'm going to do X, would X hurt you? Whatever benefits you the most I'll do. Okay, then I won't play this card." Or, "But I thought the point of Magic was to ruin it for your opponent."
These games are always determined by who can become the most powerful while not being noticed as the most powerful. Then this player just mops up everyone else. They're all just illusions of actual games.
I'm going to make a game called, "Knife". The rules are simple, everyone gets a foam toy knife. Getting stabbed by the knife kills you, and the last person alive wins. Players take turns in a clockwise manner deciding to either stab another player with their knife or use their knife to defend against other knife attacks.
That's all that free for all games are and the fact that there are Magic cards on the table is inconsequential.
The appropriate number of cards is an interesting question. The bounceland comparison is interesting, but feels off to me. Bouncelands aren't good because they're ramp spells, because they're not. They only increase your overall mana production by one, and do it at the same rate as playing a land each turn. They're good because they provide a form of card advantage (3 mana for 2 lands instead of 3) and fix your mana. Cloudpost, on the other hand, is actually a ramp card- two copies will give you 4 mana overall, more quickly than you'd get it by playing lands each turn.
Glimmerpost just feels bad to me. You only need two Locus for Cloudpost to provide an effect the Cube would absolutely run- tapping a land for 2 mana is extremely powerful. Glimmerpost doesn't do anything that feels worth it until you're at 4 or higher- it's not like we play Radiant Fountain. If I wanted to bump my Locus count, I might run 1, but I'd be more tempted to just run another Cloudpost so that people only have to keep their eyes open for one card. Really, at that point space becomes the bigger and bigger problem, though. I think where it's at right now, Post is probably not super strong as a singular strategy, but is a good way to support mana ramp. So I guess it's not really "hungry hungry hippos," because I doubt everyone will want them, but it does the work of a standard niche strategy. I think the big question is "how many Cloudposts do you need to consistently get 2 or more in play?" Then I think that number becomes the target for how many would appear in a typical 8-person draft. I guess the idea of picking up some extra mana may appeal to more people than I think, but I have to imagine other, better cards keep people from picking them all that highly unless they're actively looking for them. Hrm. I probably just have to play a bit to see what works for people, but I'm curious how many Posts seem necessary for a deck to run before they become desirable.
I'm hesitant to run Expedition Map, Reap and Sow, and Crop Rotation because I kind of doubt anyone would play those cards for any reason other than searching for Cloudposts, at which point they just feel like bad Cloudposts. Does that seem right?
On your last paragraph, yes. I wouldn't run expedition map just to find a 2nd or possibly 3rd Cloudpost. But on the other hand, if there were more in the cube and some things like Eldrazi Devastator, Scour From Existence, Universal Solvent, and some Big Dumb Green Idiots you know I would play Mono Green EZTron. That seems exciting.
Tron in cube seems exciting. I'd make sure to tell all of your players that everything is singleton except for Cloudpost, and I'd state how many were in the cube.
I think going for all Cloudposts and no Glimmerposts is fine. When you have 2 in play you have 4 mana, when you have 3 in play you have 9 mana. So reasonably getting to 3 of them seems to be the sweet spot.
So doing a very rough estimate here, 6 in your deck (less for each card that can fetch for it) so that over the course of a "20 card game" you can see 3 of them?
Is 8 Cloudposts the right amount? 7 + Expedition Map? If you draft half the cube, you get 4 copies. If you draft the whole cube, 2 or 3 people can fight over it and it still would be somewhat reasonable to play and there would be an incentive to not let one player have all of them.
I'm not exactly sure how Hungry Hungry Hippos draft politics works at 10 players lol, most of my games are at 4 as I've said.
I hear you on space. There are too many interesting cards I want to play but my cube is 420 cards and that cannot change.
I'm not sure what numbers you're expecting, exactly. At 1.5 per 45 that would be 10 copies (I'm not running any Glimmerposts currently, I'm not really sold on them as an addition since Cloudpost is the one doing all the work), which seems like it would make the deck absurd unless everyone was drafting it. I would much rather have the deck be a thing that people can sometimes run that gives the Cube some texture rather than THE defining feature of my Cube. I think at the point where I need to run too many more than 4x Cloudpost and some enablers (there are a couple I'm not running that I could be convinced to run, like Expedition Map, it's not worth it. The idea is to get to a point where there will be about 3 in the average draft pool. People have to want to make it work, but they can make it work at that point.
The fact that Teachings is an instant doesn't evaporate its cost. You still need to pay 4 mana to find something, plus whatever you spend to cast it. Spreading it out over two turns helps, but it doesn't solve the problem.
I really don't understand why you're continuing this conversation. I love Mystical Teachings, have played the card before, play decks in other formats specifically because they let me play the card, and still cut it years ago when the Cube was much weaker than it is now because it was just too slow and low-impact for what was going on in the format. You want to run the card, and that's great! It might even be good for you, it does work with some of your themes. At least I, and I believe many of us, have played Teachings before and cut it in an environment that is crafted to be very different from yours. The only thing that could push this forward is you playing with the card in your more idioscyncratic format, since that is the only unknown variable here. But at this point most of your comments just reflect that you haven't played with the card yet. I just don't even know what you're trying to accomplish.
I don't see a reason to draft Cloudpost over say, an off color bounceland then.
I've played the posts singleton in my cube (before it was pointed out to me that only Cloudpost gives you extra mana, not Glimmerpost). Even when you got to draft both, and had both in your deck all it did was give you a little extra colorless mana sometimes.
So I feel that at half draft, you're not going to find these enough to make them worth it. But at full draft, maybe four is a little less worse?
Even then, let's say at 10 players one player gets all 4 Cloudposts. If the average game only goes through the top 20 cards (I don't know any actual numbers, just seems reasonable), on average they're equal to running off-color bouncelands because they'll tap for 2.
Maybe an ASFAN of 1.5 per 45 (.5 per pack) is too high, I'm just spitballing. But maybe throw in 4 Glimmerpost? They have synergy with bounce lands.
If you ran more of them, they'd be more desirable by more players and it may even out. I just don't see a compelling reason to play hungry hungry hippos with the playset of 8post in the cube if there are only 4 of them.
I've only drafted my cube at the maximum amount of players a handful of times, most of my drafts are at 4 players.
I'm interested in this discussion about the Posts/Tron because I actually like the Tron lands themselves, just not the broken things you can do with them. The 'set completion' mechanic is real cool (I genuinely enjoy Monopoly) and having it be colorless mana makes your mana base an interesting puzzle. If all anyone did with them was play fatties and Self-Assemblers then I wouldn't hate Tron.
So any talk of incorporating Tron/EZTron into a cube is interesting to me.
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I don't know why I'm still arguing about Teachings. We're both in agreement that it's okay or likely okay (In my cube). Sorry.
http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/65918. Remember that it's a work in progress, although between some token-makers (Dragon Fodder, Krenko's Command, Goblin Instigator, Gather the Townsfolk), Blue constructed cards that are probably too slow but I want to try (Gush, Foil), an extra counterspell or two (I think at least one Remove Soul, haven't decided past that), and the Cloudpost package (I'm thinking 4 plus Ancient Stirrings?), it's filling out nicely.
The only one of the cards that you listed that I play is Heliod's Pilgrim, which is on the weak side. All of them have two advantages over Teachings: They actually effect the board, and they cost 3 mana instead of 4. It's not much, but a 1/1 can be relevant for sacrifice or swarm themes and a 1/2 is actually close to an actual body. Fierce Empath gets something specialized that a lot of decks want, but in fairly low numbers. So it smooths over a strategy. Goblin Matron I agree is quite bad. The payoffs just aren't there. Even in your Cube I don't actually know what it's getting (other than Beetleback Chief) that is better than a number of cards with ETB effects. This is also part of the reason I think Goblin Grappler is such a natural addition for you. Pilgrim is the only one that I do play. It gets a lot of mileage by giving library manipulation to a color that is almost defined by not having it. It can also tutor for different things at different stages of the game; you can get an Empyrial Armor when it's time to beat down, or a Pacifism when it's time to find an answer. The decks that want Teachings, on the other hand, are pretty much limited to finding defensive spells. Those are good, but there's just not the same versatility. Also, the difference between 3 and 4 mana is pretty huge, especially when there's a chance that you'll want to search for a card and play the card in the same turn.
I drafted your cube and left comments with the deck I made from it. Seems fine so far.
I'm not sure if 4 Cloudposts, 4 Glimmerposts is enough. That's roughly 2% of the whole cube, with an 80% chance of finding one in your entire starting 45. Maybe bump that to finding 1.5 every 45? Idk. Especially if you're not firing with all 10 people most of the time.
It depends on whether you want it to be an every draft thing, or are okay with it happening occasionally.
But Teachings is Instant speed though, so you can cast it end of opponent's turn and play the card immediately after.
Or it's just a normal card and therefore unplayable trash.
Not at all, but you exaggerate everything. You call every card, that is potentially good a bomb.
Also Doom Blade doesn't break the game and when I'm saying, that a Rend Flesh is often better than paying 4 to tutor for Doom Blade, I'm not calling Teachings trash.
I disagree with your evaluation of the differences between constructed and limited. Cards don't get special errata for when they're played in a cube, they still function the same.
If you draft both Guardian of the Guildoact and Pestilence it still works the same. Ghostly Flicker still loops with Mnemonic Wall.
Likewise a Duress can still nab a counterspell or something like Rancor just like it would in my constructed MBC deck.
So Mystical Teachings can still cheat and fetch you a powerful spell. I'm not sure what the difference is. Sure, it's not going to find Tron support cards in my cube, but it's going to find a Doom Blade in an environment where a Doom Blade is a top tier spell.
Let's take Delver of Secrets for example. This card is super popular pauper constructed as well as legacy. If constructed would be the same as limited by your logic this would be way too strong for your cube, but you play it anyway? Why is that? Because it's significantly worse in limited. Your deck isn't just 4 Delver and the rest spells to flip it. Teachings simply can not tutor anything, but only instants and in a few cases a flash creature. The thing is, that many instants in limited, and also in your cube, are redundant.
I'm not saying Teachings is bad in UB and probably a good card for that guild slot in your cube, because it makes the Splice deck more consistent, but Teaching will probably not make the cut in a nonblack deck.
I never said that Doom Blade is a bomb. But in a cube without Bombs (I can't recall if any are in my cube anymore, I don't think there are besides the 5 monarch cards I guess), all you're left with is READ, and therefore a spell like Doom Blade is top tier.
Delver is an exception. Delver only works when you build an entire deck around him, so you actually have to earn getting use out of him in cube. However, tutoring for a removal spell or countermagic just seems always decent. Many cards or many interactions between cards are going to be good regardless of whether or not they're constructed or drafted. To use a tautology, a Lightning Bolt is still a Lightning Bolt in cube.
A bit of an aside, but I do think that Delver in constructed Pauper being borderline OP is good for the format, or at least was before Foil pushed the deck over the top. I know that's a bit of a weird opinion, but midrange/tempo decks tend to neither kill you on turn 3 or lock you out of the game on turn 5, so actual Magic tends to be played when they're involved.
Additionally, it's only Flicker that I don't have in my cube because of how disgusting it is in constructed Pauper. I'm a-okay with Guardian of the Guildpact and Pestilence and Coalition Honor Guard and Sprout Swarm in constructed Pauper, but in a limited Pauper environment they tend to be dominant (even in a powered cube).
Why is single-use Teachings bad, but Fierce Empath or Heliod's Pilgrim or Goblin Matron not bad? Do you consider these to be bad cards too?
@Waymarsh. Can you post a link to your cube? I'm interested in drafting it but I can't force desktop view on my Windows Phone in order to see your signature.
OK, it's cool that you like Mystical Teachings for your Cube, I encourage you to try it out. But in the normal Pauper Cube environment, he's absolutely right. Heck, I'm not convinced that Teachings is actually all that strong in your Cube. It's OK that you care about things other than flat power level, but you also have to acknowledge that a lot of the conversation here is going to consider the Cube's high power level and that you're kind of the outlier. You can and should try Teachings. Frankly, I do suspect you will be disappointed. But in terms of general users who care about kind of "default" Cube power level more than you do, the cards that you listed are all pretty bad. I would not seriously consider running any of them in my Cube. This is partially because I have run them before and found that they were, in fact, entirely unplayable in my (seemingly fairly normal) normal Pauper Cube environment. You have an idiosyncratic Cube, and that's great, you should get help for it when you need it, but you also need to recognize that most conversation here is is not talking about your idiosyncratic Cube.
I'm not sure why Teachings is bad.
In limited games tend to be slower, so spending 4 mana to fetch is tenable. It gets you anything you need.
If it can fetch one a Moment's Peace or Flicker in constructed Tron, why is is magically worse when it's fetching you a Doom Blade or Counterspell in a toned down environment?
Teaching is another of these cards that are really good in constructed, because it creates a toolbox, where you can play a lot of 1-off situational cards and guarantee them at the right time. In limited your answers are usually not that wide spread and you are simply adding 4 cmc to any interchangeable removal spell. I think without the flashback it's actually pretty unplayable and even if you are UB it's far from broken. Don't confuse constructed with limited powerlevel.
To be fair, you've said this about Duress (and Mesmeric Fiend I think too).
So this is the attitude that I complain about.
Either it utterly breaks the game and it's good.
Or it's just a normal card and therefore unplayable trash.
See: Fogs that aren't as good as Prismatic Strands, 3 mana black Pacifism, Duress, Mesmeric Fiend, Mystical Teachings, etc.
Second EDIT: I disagree with your evaluation of the differences between constructed and limited. Cards don't get special errata for when they're played in a cube, they still function the same.
If you draft both Guardian of the Guildoact and Pestilence it still works the same. Ghostly Flicker still loops with Mnemonic Wall.
Likewise a Duress can still nab a counterspell or something like Rancor just like it would in my constructed MBC deck.
So Mystical Teachings can still cheat and fetch you a powerful spell. I'm not sure what the difference is. Sure, it's not going to find Tron support cards in my cube, but it's going to find a Doom Blade in an environment where a Doom Blade is a top tier spell.
Ultimately a cantrip is only as good as the card it can fetch it draw, so if it's fetching fair cards then it should be fine.
Tutors kind of stretch this notion because they're literally cheating, but it seems fine.
My experiences with my cube have been pretty slow, I've lost to myself via decking before. Turns out Wall Of Kelp is a good card, but not without enough win conditions lol.
Ultimately a cantrip is only as good as the card it can fetch it draw, so if it's fetching fair cards then it should be fine.
Tutors kind of stretch this notion because they're literally cheating, but it seems fine.
My experiences with my cube have been pretty slow, I've lost to myself via decking before. Turns out Wall Of Kelp is a good card, but not without enough win conditions lol.
Some of these cards I'd snap pick without their second color, especially Mystical Teachings.
Sure, Feeling of Dread or Travel Preparations are more evenly split, but that's because their base effect is just okay and you kind of need to flash it back in order to make better use of the card.
Something like Strangling Soot is just another black removal spell I'll first pick (if there isn't better removal in the pack) because removal is never bad, Rally the Peasants is just white Trumpet Blast, and Teachings basically allows you to cheat at the game and cheating at the game once is more than enough to justify running it.
I'm asking this because I'm actually thinking about putting Teachings in, but a Dimir slot seems kind of weird for the card. I figure with Heliod's Pilgrim, Goblin Matron, and Fierce Empath a blue tutor is okay. On one hand a Simic deck could use it to find a big dumb Flash idiot or protect its creatures with countermagic, on the other a Dimir deck could use it to fetch a Doom Blade.
Hmm, idk, Teachings seems above the power level I want for my cube, sort of. I'll try it out. It might make Splice unironically too good, but is that a bad thing?
Speaking of cards in the wrong color, I put Whip-spine Drake into Azorius when it's really actually a white creature. I have to change that.
Convoke on Sprout Swarm is HUGE. So is Instant speed, but Convoke is the biggest one. The effect is just more powerful at 4 mana instead of 5, especially since you'll be paying that cost multiple times in the same turn, and it even helps make itself more splashable if your UR deck needs a win condition! It's so good that Lab Rats might be OK despite being notably weaker, but it's still notably weaker.
This is probably a sign that this should have gone in Evaluate Everything. It is a raw power level question with a dash of my Cube design thrown in because I think my Cube is a little bit more graveyard focused than most Cubes. I do like its synergy with Foil- it's part of Rona's core strategy! But it's a bit on the slow side for Cube.
I think that's pretty unfair to how this forum talks about power level, though. You only have room for so many Counterspells, and Logic Knot is clearly weaker than the big dogs in the format. I'm just not sure what makes it so much worse than some of the other second-tier Counterspells. It probably is worse than the first Remove Soul, though, which might just answer my question for me.
EDIT: Upon further reflection, Foil plus Gush is probably too cute, but it's exactly the kind of cute that I like. I might try it even though I suspect it's a bit on the slow side.
Regarding Gush, I've noticed that Fathom Seer is the better card in limited.
In response to removal I've morphed it, bounced it, and then replayed it later for more card draw.
So there are enough copies of Gush to make Foil worthwhile and 4 mana isn't that hard in limited.
Oh, so I was specifically talking about Red "Deal X damage for X mana" spells. I've actually played more than a few of the cards you've listed before as underperformers, but there are some sweet ones in there. I've always liked Lab Rats, because I like that Black secretly just has a Rat tribal subtheme in some of its staple creatures, but it just looks so bad next to Sprout Swarm (which I run and is absurd). I might reexamine some of these, though.
Speaking of reexamining things, I know that this forum is down on Logic Knot (it's Bad in Evaluate Everything). I have also been down on it in the past- I know that I ran it before and cut it as an underperformer, although that was a long time ago. I'm not entirely sure why, though? My Cube is probably a little too graveyard-hungry to want it, but I'm curious if there's a specific reason it's so unloved. In Evaluate Everything it's listed in the same slot as Spell Blast, which just doesn't feel right to me. (Note: This may just be an Evaluate Everything question, but I keep on hearing its siren call in a way that suggests that MAYBE it could be a synergy card in my Cube?)
I don't see how Lab Rats is significantly worse than Sprout Swarm. It's worse sure, but it's still a bomb.
Logic Knot is a fine spell, that's just herd mentality.
In my cube Remove Soul 1U spells are better picks than the various UU counterspells simply because of their extra blue cost. If that's not a problem in your cube I don't see why Logic Knot isn't a fine spell.
Logic Knot has synergy with Foil if you're into that sort of thing.
Logic Knot is one of those spells that's a good card but since it doesn't utterly break the game it's regarded as utter trash.
I wouldn't run them if I only got two of them. They're colorless sources that come into play tapped.
EDIT: I do think Glimmerposts are somewhat reasonable. I don't think I'd play only 2 though.
My decision to cut duals was criticized (I've since swapped the 3 color Obelisks and the creatures like Helionaut for the Signets) for making multicolor decks worse. Using that same reasoning I wouldn't dilute my deck's mana base in the vain hope of getting 2 extra colorless mana. I'd do it if I had a reasonable chance of having three on the field, which would require 5-6 pieces in a deck.
Off color Signets and bouncelands are higher up on the pick order than having 2 cloudposts in your deck.
It's one thing to cut swamps for a Haunted Fengraf or Desert, or for the 5-6 Cloudposts you got to draft. But not for just two.
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Something I have to remind myself is that if I put a fun card in the cube but it's a bad card and no one ever puts it in their decks, then it ceases to be a fun card because it will never see any play.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
Self-Assembler can fetch other self-assembler type creatures. In Pauper there is a 5 mana one with improvise, and there is a 3 mana one that taps to pump a self assembler. So you could play them singleton and you'd just get a neat pair of creatures. If you ran Mishra's Factory there would be some cool synergy.
The easy way out if you still want to run Tron is to run singleton copies of each Tron land. And each of these comes with 2 extra copies of the land. When you draft Tower you'll get permission to run 2 more copies of Tower in your deck.
I'd go for all three Tron Pieces if I could be guaranteed a benefit from it. I'd also consider hate drafting one and not grabbing the rest Monopoly style.
That seems even more icky than breaking singleton, but it does seem like the cleanest way to do it.
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This seems like a basic question, but what is the best way to team draft? So both players on a team sit next to each other and draft their packs individually but in a coordinated manner.
Then when it comes to gameplay, what rules? Should players share life totals? How does turn order go?
I utterly hate free-for-all games, even going out of my way sometimes to intentionally kingmake/attack one player and drag him down with me just to demonstrate how they're ruled entirely by gentleman's agreement and politics, not the actual game itself. As I'm doing this I like to say things like, "Well, if I make my win condition someone's else's win condition, then I have a higher chance of winning." Or, "I'm going to do X, would X hurt you? Whatever benefits you the most I'll do. Okay, then I won't play this card." Or, "But I thought the point of Magic was to ruin it for your opponent."
These games are always determined by who can become the most powerful while not being noticed as the most powerful. Then this player just mops up everyone else. They're all just illusions of actual games.
I'm going to make a game called, "Knife". The rules are simple, everyone gets a foam toy knife. Getting stabbed by the knife kills you, and the last person alive wins. Players take turns in a clockwise manner deciding to either stab another player with their knife or use their knife to defend against other knife attacks.
That's all that free for all games are and the fact that there are Magic cards on the table is inconsequential.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
On your last paragraph, yes. I wouldn't run expedition map just to find a 2nd or possibly 3rd Cloudpost. But on the other hand, if there were more in the cube and some things like Eldrazi Devastator, Scour From Existence, Universal Solvent, and some Big Dumb Green Idiots you know I would play Mono Green EZTron. That seems exciting.
Tron in cube seems exciting. I'd make sure to tell all of your players that everything is singleton except for Cloudpost, and I'd state how many were in the cube.
I think going for all Cloudposts and no Glimmerposts is fine. When you have 2 in play you have 4 mana, when you have 3 in play you have 9 mana. So reasonably getting to 3 of them seems to be the sweet spot.
So doing a very rough estimate here, 6 in your deck (less for each card that can fetch for it) so that over the course of a "20 card game" you can see 3 of them?
Is 8 Cloudposts the right amount? 7 + Expedition Map? If you draft half the cube, you get 4 copies. If you draft the whole cube, 2 or 3 people can fight over it and it still would be somewhat reasonable to play and there would be an incentive to not let one player have all of them.
I'm not exactly sure how Hungry Hungry Hippos draft politics works at 10 players lol, most of my games are at 4 as I've said.
I hear you on space. There are too many interesting cards I want to play but my cube is 420 cards and that cannot change.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
I don't see a reason to draft Cloudpost over say, an off color bounceland then.
I've played the posts singleton in my cube (before it was pointed out to me that only Cloudpost gives you extra mana, not Glimmerpost). Even when you got to draft both, and had both in your deck all it did was give you a little extra colorless mana sometimes.
So I feel that at half draft, you're not going to find these enough to make them worth it. But at full draft, maybe four is a little less worse?
Even then, let's say at 10 players one player gets all 4 Cloudposts. If the average game only goes through the top 20 cards (I don't know any actual numbers, just seems reasonable), on average they're equal to running off-color bouncelands because they'll tap for 2.
Maybe an ASFAN of 1.5 per 45 (.5 per pack) is too high, I'm just spitballing. But maybe throw in 4 Glimmerpost? They have synergy with bounce lands.
If you ran more of them, they'd be more desirable by more players and it may even out. I just don't see a compelling reason to play hungry hungry hippos with the playset of 8post in the cube if there are only 4 of them.
I've only drafted my cube at the maximum amount of players a handful of times, most of my drafts are at 4 players.
I'm interested in this discussion about the Posts/Tron because I actually like the Tron lands themselves, just not the broken things you can do with them. The 'set completion' mechanic is real cool (I genuinely enjoy Monopoly) and having it be colorless mana makes your mana base an interesting puzzle. If all anyone did with them was play fatties and Self-Assemblers then I wouldn't hate Tron.
So any talk of incorporating Tron/EZTron into a cube is interesting to me.
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I don't know why I'm still arguing about Teachings. We're both in agreement that it's okay or likely okay (In my cube). Sorry.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
I drafted your cube and left comments with the deck I made from it. Seems fine so far.
I'm not sure if 4 Cloudposts, 4 Glimmerposts is enough. That's roughly 2% of the whole cube, with an 80% chance of finding one in your entire starting 45. Maybe bump that to finding 1.5 every 45? Idk. Especially if you're not firing with all 10 people most of the time.
It depends on whether you want it to be an every draft thing, or are okay with it happening occasionally.
But Teachings is Instant speed though, so you can cast it end of opponent's turn and play the card immediately after.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
I never said that Doom Blade is a bomb. But in a cube without Bombs (I can't recall if any are in my cube anymore, I don't think there are besides the 5 monarch cards I guess), all you're left with is READ, and therefore a spell like Doom Blade is top tier.
Delver is an exception. Delver only works when you build an entire deck around him, so you actually have to earn getting use out of him in cube. However, tutoring for a removal spell or countermagic just seems always decent. Many cards or many interactions between cards are going to be good regardless of whether or not they're constructed or drafted. To use a tautology, a Lightning Bolt is still a Lightning Bolt in cube.
A bit of an aside, but I do think that Delver in constructed Pauper being borderline OP is good for the format, or at least was before Foil pushed the deck over the top. I know that's a bit of a weird opinion, but midrange/tempo decks tend to neither kill you on turn 3 or lock you out of the game on turn 5, so actual Magic tends to be played when they're involved.
Additionally, it's only Flicker that I don't have in my cube because of how disgusting it is in constructed Pauper. I'm a-okay with Guardian of the Guildpact and Pestilence and Coalition Honor Guard and Sprout Swarm in constructed Pauper, but in a limited Pauper environment they tend to be dominant (even in a powered cube).
Why is single-use Teachings bad, but Fierce Empath or Heliod's Pilgrim or Goblin Matron not bad? Do you consider these to be bad cards too?
@Waymarsh. Can you post a link to your cube? I'm interested in drafting it but I can't force desktop view on my Windows Phone in order to see your signature.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
I'm not sure why Teachings is bad.
In limited games tend to be slower, so spending 4 mana to fetch is tenable. It gets you anything you need.
If it can fetch one a Moment's Peace or Flicker in constructed Tron, why is is magically worse when it's fetching you a Doom Blade or Counterspell in a toned down environment?
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
To be fair, you've said this about Duress (and Mesmeric Fiend I think too).
So this is the attitude that I complain about.
Either it utterly breaks the game and it's good.
Or it's just a normal card and therefore unplayable trash.
See: Fogs that aren't as good as Prismatic Strands, 3 mana black Pacifism, Duress, Mesmeric Fiend, Mystical Teachings, etc.
Second EDIT: I disagree with your evaluation of the differences between constructed and limited. Cards don't get special errata for when they're played in a cube, they still function the same.
If you draft both Guardian of the Guildoact and Pestilence it still works the same. Ghostly Flicker still loops with Mnemonic Wall.
Likewise a Duress can still nab a counterspell or something like Rancor just like it would in my constructed MBC deck.
So Mystical Teachings can still cheat and fetch you a powerful spell. I'm not sure what the difference is. Sure, it's not going to find Tron support cards in my cube, but it's going to find a Doom Blade in an environment where a Doom Blade is a top tier spell.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
Tutors kind of stretch this notion because they're literally cheating, but it seems fine.
My experiences with my cube have been pretty slow, I've lost to myself via decking before. Turns out Wall Of Kelp is a good card, but not without enough win conditions lol.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
Tutors kind of stretch this notion because they're literally cheating, but it seems fine.
My experiences with my cube have been pretty slow, I've lost to myself via decking before. Turns out Wall Of Kelp is a good card, but not without enough win conditions lol.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
Tutors kind of stretch this notion because they're literally cheating, but it seems fine.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
Sure, Feeling of Dread or Travel Preparations are more evenly split, but that's because their base effect is just okay and you kind of need to flash it back in order to make better use of the card.
Something like Strangling Soot is just another black removal spell I'll first pick (if there isn't better removal in the pack) because removal is never bad, Rally the Peasants is just white Trumpet Blast, and Teachings basically allows you to cheat at the game and cheating at the game once is more than enough to justify running it.
I'm asking this because I'm actually thinking about putting Teachings in, but a Dimir slot seems kind of weird for the card. I figure with Heliod's Pilgrim, Goblin Matron, and Fierce Empath a blue tutor is okay. On one hand a Simic deck could use it to find a big dumb Flash idiot or protect its creatures with countermagic, on the other a Dimir deck could use it to fetch a Doom Blade.
Hmm, idk, Teachings seems above the power level I want for my cube, sort of. I'll try it out. It might make Splice unironically too good, but is that a bad thing?
Speaking of cards in the wrong color, I put Whip-spine Drake into Azorius when it's really actually a white creature. I have to change that.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
Is Mystical Teachings a Dimir card? Is Momentary Blink Azorius?
IDK, Mystical Teachings seems kind of "75%" blue, if that makes any sense. It can be played in mono blue but can't in black.
Do I just slot these cards in their respective guild slots and stop caring that black is down .75 of a card or whatever?
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
Regarding Gush, I've noticed that Fathom Seer is the better card in limited.
In response to removal I've morphed it, bounced it, and then replayed it later for more card draw.
So there are enough copies of Gush to make Foil worthwhile and 4 mana isn't that hard in limited.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
I don't see how Lab Rats is significantly worse than Sprout Swarm. It's worse sure, but it's still a bomb.
Logic Knot is a fine spell, that's just herd mentality.
In my cube Remove Soul 1U spells are better picks than the various UU counterspells simply because of their extra blue cost. If that's not a problem in your cube I don't see why Logic Knot isn't a fine spell.
Logic Knot has synergy with Foil if you're into that sort of thing.
Logic Knot is one of those spells that's a good card but since it doesn't utterly break the game it's regarded as utter trash.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.