Tier 1 hype! (even though the forum seems to have a bigger tier 1 category than what most people consider)
Went 3-2 today at local win-a-goyf. Bad beats, manascrewed vs affinity and lost vs two abzan company nut draws, Won vs UW control, esper control, bant eldrazi. Whatever the deck feels great and I will probably play it more the following weeks.
Mainboard is okay, I'm still unsure about eternal witness but seems worth it as a tutor target for the sideboard eldritch evolution. Otherwise, the mainboard is perfect. Courser of kruphix overperformed in several matchups, but wouldn't play more than two.
From the sideboard, still unsure about having no stony silence. Whisperwood elemental is an amazing card and I'll continue testing it in this deck. Whisperwood is to selfless what archangel of thune is to melira - a bigger, better card that dominates grindy matchups. I kind of like it more than the SB walkers that people usually include. In addition to that, it's serious tech vs eldrazi tron, which is a matchups that scares me (sac it in response to all is dust, all your creatures turn into 2/2 colorless surprises)
Matchups
RG Valakut (2-1)
Eldrazi Tron (2-1)
BW Eldrazi and Taxes (2-0)
Eldrazi Tron (2-0)
UW Control (2-1)
That 5-0 is impressive. What would you say that are key cards vs eldrazi tron and UW control? I think everyone here would love a brief report of how those matches played out
Two questions for the thread. Why is manglehorn played so much in the sideboard lately? Also, what's the best replacement for hallowed fountain? I'm playing at a team constructed event and my teammate needs the fountain. I've thought about irrigated farmland, but maybe the UW fastland or the 10th fetchland is better.
I've been having this idea where we go all in on the eldritch Evolution game plan in the sideboard with 4 in the side with a bunch of hate. Any thoughts?
I've played knightfall with evolution instead of collected for a lot of time and in the end it's not worth it. Having 1 in the SB is okay, but going full set on them is probably not a good idea. I used the card most of the time to fetch knights or sigarda, and maybe 10% of the time to search specific hate cards. Collected is just a better card, and as dreadnaught said, SB is already tight, there's no place for 3 more cards.
@Lectrys maybe I'm wrong because nissa is a tough card to evaluate (as the only walker with x in its mana cost) but can't see how she's good here. Yes, cheating creatures is cool, but to be worth all of this things need to happen:
a) nissa is at 3+ loyalty (all the worthy creatures are at 3cmc)
b) nissa survives several turns (cheating less than 2 creatures before she dies is just a worse, sorcery speed, less deep collected)
c) you have ways to scry (courser/retreat)
To me, it's too many hoops to jump for a non collected company hit. It just seems like a worse tamiyo (and tamiyo sees zero play in this deck). Maybe lots of lists start playing nissa and I have to eat my words but I wouldn't be too optimistic about her...
Vizier might see play in this deck, but I'm not super confident about it. Don't think it helps in any matchup where we struggle, and being 4 cmc is horrible (not a coco hit, dies to push). I understand 5 drops being played if they are really good (like wisperwood elemental), but 4 drops are in such a bad spot in this deck...
Rhonas is interesting. Some time ago I tested thassa (the blue theros god) and while the ability was powerful, it wasn't worth the slot. Rhonas activated ability is similar to thassa, slightly less powerful here (decks running vizier/druid combo use it better) but rhonas being a creature is totally possible. It dies to path, like every creature in knightfall, but survives push, bolt, terminate... to name a few. And combat must feel miserable with it. I don't remember ever playing against an indestructible deathtouch creature...
One last comment about rhonas. This is not like theros gods, this ones are creatures, just can't attack nor block. This means that ulvenwald tracker and dromoka's command are insane with rhonas in the battlefield, even if he's not active. Sad thing is that rhonas, if played, will be a 1 of, so the synergies won't come up too often.
I don't really think that we are favored vs restore balance, but we have ways to win some games. If you are able to disrupt the balance, everything will be fine. This means, countering it with queller/negate/unified will most of the time. If you run vendilion you can also try to disrupt them with it. Post board, stony silence is a blowout.
I will never understand Eli Kassis lists, seriously. Only 3 path? 2 courser main and 2 courser sideboard? gideon main? And he has no social media, so unless someone knows him personally he can't explain this choices.
About meddling mage, don't forget the synergy with queller! Bolt the queller, in response collected company finding meddling mage naming whatever was under the queller prevents them casting it.
If someone goes with the meddling mages, I would encourage playing some number of vendilion cliques (for obvious reasons).
And it's really surprising to see so many knightfalls at team events. This deck plays stomping ground, which cuts them from death shadow jund. I know that there are other flavors for that deck, but I thought jund was the better version.
Botanical sanctum is a card that makes no sense in this deck, many people tell me to change it for a fetchland, but it still overperforms most of the time. I don't know why it's good, but it is. Hopefully after more matches I can understand why it's so good, it's an interesting card choice for sure. I'm not sure if hinterland harbor is worth it, I think that T1 untapped is more important than T4+ untapped.
@dreadnaught33, I've played worship in my sideboard for a really long time and I agree with Kelvin. The card is narrower than it seems (4 mana do nothing enchantment is tough with the speed and power level of the format, it's bad against any kind of enchantment removal/sweepers) and when it's good, most decks have outs (eldrazi can deck you with tks, merfolk has vapor snag and echoing truth, dredge has brutality, elves has shaman of the pack). In the end, I wanted worship for those four matchups and there are better cards against them that fit our plan better (reflector mage/alliance vs eldrazi, teeg/staticaster/negate vs elves, clique/alliance vs merfolk, staticaster/ooze vs dredge)
Has anyone tested a version with a couple of tarmogoyfs?
I want to test 2 goyfs in place of voice. Voice hasn't been that good, and there's lots of delirium strategies that enable goyf for us. In addition to that, 1g is a better cost than gw (with so many colorless lands its not trivial to have GW turn two.
For tournament decks, check what nathan smith played at GP dallas.
I haven't tested enough to provide a numerical win% against tron, but I have won some games. I've had more success vs them when I was running a more aggresive version of this deck (like 4c company with nacatl/goyf, versions with geist, versions with eldritch evolution) but I think that the stock knightfall list can win too (and is better than all those other versions vs most other decks). The combo, counters, stony and gaddock teeg are all great.
And for eldrazi tron, I haven't played vs it yet, so no idea.
There's also gaddock teeg. It stops gifts, pif and empty the warrens.
Today I tested reflector mage and got to do one really sweet play that I want to share here, vs affinity.
Affinity player has no artifact lands and an ornithopter, I had izzet staticaster in the field. Arcbound ravager is cast. In my turn, I reflector mage the ornithopter, they sac it for ravager and in response I shoot it down with staticaster.
Overall, reflector mage worked really well, way better than I expected. I understimated a lot that card.
Well, queller vs jund (or any removal deck for this matter) is an awkward card. Having flash is nice, as mediumburst said. My experience so far tells me that queller is not horrible in this matchups, but be very careful when exiling removal spells. When you both are empty handed its okay, but it's not when he has more cards in hand. He probably has more removal than you have quellers, so if you tried to queller 2-3 removal spells they are all going to die simultaneously at some point.
I'm a fan of taking out 2-3 birds, I like it even more if you have sideboard lands (like ghost quarter or bojuka). Hierarch is going to die just as birds, but it's a better topdeck. I do think that blessed alliance is good here. It allows you too many things at all stages of the game, and I think that's valuable. We do want to have good collected companies vs jund though, so don't force it if you don't have enoughg bad cards to take out.
For my current list in particular I would do:
-2 retreat -2 pridemage -3 birds
+1 ghost quarter +1 kitchen finks +3 reflector mage +2 blessed alliance
Retreat is not THAT bad vs them, but I sided one out in order not to draw multiple copies. Reflector mage is cool tech, but it just delays the inevitable, so try to capitalize on that tempo swing. Maindeck cards that overperformed were qasali, vendilion, gavony township and tireless tracker.
Went 3-2 today at local win-a-goyf. Bad beats, manascrewed vs affinity and lost vs two abzan company nut draws, Won vs UW control, esper control, bant eldrazi. Whatever the deck feels great and I will probably play it more the following weeks.
1 Botanical Sanctum
1 Breeding Pool
1 Flooded Strand
3 Forest
1 Gavony Township
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
2 Retreat to Coralhelm
//Instants
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
//Creatures
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Courser of Kruphix
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Selfless Spirit
4 Spell Queller
1 Tireless Tracker
3 Voice of Resurgence
1 Eternal Witness
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Negate
2 Unified Will
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Reflector Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Eldritch Evolution
1 Whisperwood Elemental
Mainboard is okay, I'm still unsure about eternal witness but seems worth it as a tutor target for the sideboard eldritch evolution. Otherwise, the mainboard is perfect. Courser of kruphix overperformed in several matchups, but wouldn't play more than two.
From the sideboard, still unsure about having no stony silence. Whisperwood elemental is an amazing card and I'll continue testing it in this deck. Whisperwood is to selfless what archangel of thune is to melira - a bigger, better card that dominates grindy matchups. I kind of like it more than the SB walkers that people usually include. In addition to that, it's serious tech vs eldrazi tron, which is a matchups that scares me (sac it in response to all is dust, all your creatures turn into 2/2 colorless surprises)
L: Maverick
L: Maverick
That 5-0 is impressive. What would you say that are key cards vs eldrazi tron and UW control? I think everyone here would love a brief report of how those matches played out
Two questions for the thread. Why is manglehorn played so much in the sideboard lately? Also, what's the best replacement for hallowed fountain? I'm playing at a team constructed event and my teammate needs the fountain. I've thought about irrigated farmland, but maybe the UW fastland or the 10th fetchland is better.
L: Maverick
I've played knightfall with evolution instead of collected for a lot of time and in the end it's not worth it. Having 1 in the SB is okay, but going full set on them is probably not a good idea. I used the card most of the time to fetch knights or sigarda, and maybe 10% of the time to search specific hate cards. Collected is just a better card, and as dreadnaught said, SB is already tight, there's no place for 3 more cards.
@Lectrys maybe I'm wrong because nissa is a tough card to evaluate (as the only walker with x in its mana cost) but can't see how she's good here. Yes, cheating creatures is cool, but to be worth all of this things need to happen:
a) nissa is at 3+ loyalty (all the worthy creatures are at 3cmc)
b) nissa survives several turns (cheating less than 2 creatures before she dies is just a worse, sorcery speed, less deep collected)
c) you have ways to scry (courser/retreat)
To me, it's too many hoops to jump for a non collected company hit. It just seems like a worse tamiyo (and tamiyo sees zero play in this deck). Maybe lots of lists start playing nissa and I have to eat my words but I wouldn't be too optimistic about her...
L: Maverick
Rhonas is interesting. Some time ago I tested thassa (the blue theros god) and while the ability was powerful, it wasn't worth the slot. Rhonas activated ability is similar to thassa, slightly less powerful here (decks running vizier/druid combo use it better) but rhonas being a creature is totally possible. It dies to path, like every creature in knightfall, but survives push, bolt, terminate... to name a few. And combat must feel miserable with it. I don't remember ever playing against an indestructible deathtouch creature...
One last comment about rhonas. This is not like theros gods, this ones are creatures, just can't attack nor block. This means that ulvenwald tracker and dromoka's command are insane with rhonas in the battlefield, even if he's not active. Sad thing is that rhonas, if played, will be a 1 of, so the synergies won't come up too often.
L: Maverick
L: Maverick
L: Maverick
About meddling mage, don't forget the synergy with queller! Bolt the queller, in response collected company finding meddling mage naming whatever was under the queller prevents them casting it.
If someone goes with the meddling mages, I would encourage playing some number of vendilion cliques (for obvious reasons).
And it's really surprising to see so many knightfalls at team events. This deck plays stomping ground, which cuts them from death shadow jund. I know that there are other flavors for that deck, but I thought jund was the better version.
L: Maverick
L: Maverick
@dreadnaught33, I've played worship in my sideboard for a really long time and I agree with Kelvin. The card is narrower than it seems (4 mana do nothing enchantment is tough with the speed and power level of the format, it's bad against any kind of enchantment removal/sweepers) and when it's good, most decks have outs (eldrazi can deck you with tks, merfolk has vapor snag and echoing truth, dredge has brutality, elves has shaman of the pack). In the end, I wanted worship for those four matchups and there are better cards against them that fit our plan better (reflector mage/alliance vs eldrazi, teeg/staticaster/negate vs elves, clique/alliance vs merfolk, staticaster/ooze vs dredge)
L: Maverick
I want to test 2 goyfs in place of voice. Voice hasn't been that good, and there's lots of delirium strategies that enable goyf for us. In addition to that, 1g is a better cost than gw (with so many colorless lands its not trivial to have GW turn two.
For tournament decks, check what nathan smith played at GP dallas.
L: Maverick
And for eldrazi tron, I haven't played vs it yet, so no idea.
L: Maverick
Today I tested reflector mage and got to do one really sweet play that I want to share here, vs affinity.
Affinity player has no artifact lands and an ornithopter, I had izzet staticaster in the field. Arcbound ravager is cast. In my turn, I reflector mage the ornithopter, they sac it for ravager and in response I shoot it down with staticaster.
Overall, reflector mage worked really well, way better than I expected. I understimated a lot that card.
L: Maverick
I'm a fan of taking out 2-3 birds, I like it even more if you have sideboard lands (like ghost quarter or bojuka). Hierarch is going to die just as birds, but it's a better topdeck. I do think that blessed alliance is good here. It allows you too many things at all stages of the game, and I think that's valuable. We do want to have good collected companies vs jund though, so don't force it if you don't have enoughg bad cards to take out.
For my current list in particular I would do:
-2 retreat -2 pridemage -3 birds
+1 ghost quarter +1 kitchen finks +3 reflector mage +2 blessed alliance
L: Maverick
1 Botanical Sanctum
1 Breeding Pool
1 Flooded Strand
3 Forest
1 Gavony Township
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
2 Retreat to Coralhelm
//Instants
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
//Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Selfless Spirit
4 Spell Queller
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Voice of Resurgence
2 Izzet Staticaster
2 Negate
2 Unified Will
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Reflector Mage
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Blessed Alliance
Results were:
pre-sideboard (knightfall)1-2(Eldrazi
post-sideboard 2-1
SB plan:
-4 spell queller
-2 scavenging ooze
-1 retreat to coralhelm
+1 ghost quarter
+2 blessed alliance
+3 reflector mage
+1 kitchen finks
Retreat is not THAT bad vs them, but I sided one out in order not to draw multiple copies. Reflector mage is cool tech, but it just delays the inevitable, so try to capitalize on that tempo swing. Maindeck cards that overperformed were qasali, vendilion, gavony township and tireless tracker.
L: Maverick